R. A Salvadore is not forgiven

[Marcus Telcontar]

for killing Chewie... But he's not on the too be panned list now. The AOTC novelisation is very, very good.

[Sage Hazzard]

I'm actually thinking about buying that once it comes out as a used book. I don't have the moolah for new.

Oh, and although I like the title, it's a spoiler for those who haven't read Vector Prime, like me. :) BTW..... I HATE HIM FOR THAT!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! ! Urg, it really peeved me badly.

[JMK]

I'm not going to buy the hardcover.
So Marcus, you've read the whole thing, are we going to be pleased with AotC???

[ReaperFett]

OH GET YOUR FACTS RIGHT YOU UNINFORMED PEOPLE!


Salvatore DIDNT WANT to kill Chewie. He was ORDERED to by LFL, with George Lucas' seal of approval. BLAME HIM!










Sorry, I have to moan at someone who says that every week. It's easy at TF.N :)

[Taataani Meorrrei]

I don't read EU, and I won't get into it, either. But I'm reading the AotC novelization, and its WONDERFUL. Salvatore is a talented man indeed.

[ReaperFett]

He is meant to be a Premier author or something. Quite open if you ever catch him on a message board too

[Marcus Telcontar]

Are we goign to enjoy AOTC....


Hmmm.... well......

If this is an accurate translation of the movie, then AOTC could well become the most loved of all Star Wars. It is dark, has plot twists, bugger all kiddie stuff and I just plain dont understand how such and apparently violent moive can get PG-13

I'll say this again - it is not a kiddie movie. The novelisation points to a very good script. If the script is translated well - AOTC is goign to set SW bashers back a few steps.

The novel is no where near what you would expect. I was flat out shocked by the content. It seemed to be slow to begin and I was like ewwwww, then it simply exploded into action and just never stopped. There are things in AOTC that will shake and shock you.

Oh man, I truly hope the movie lives up tot he book!!

[ReaperFett]

I cant see from the trailers how it cant be full of action :)




I think this will be the best though. ESB is the best of the movies(I dont agree with ranking SW films, but in film terms, ESB is the best), because you dont need to start or finish the tale. TPM suffered because it had to start, but didnt need to standalone like ANH. EP2 will IMO improve TPM, and TPM will improve EP2

[sirdizzy]

i won't read the novelization tell after the movie

[Jedi Master Carr]

I won't read it either, its still on my book shelf, it is tempting me though, I also bought the first two comics of the four set today, but I quickly put them in a drawer and barely looked at them, the covers are real cool though. I think the book will be similar to the movie the TPM one was translated word for word in some places regardless how you feel about that movie the book did show off the movie well. As far as the rating it has already got a PG rating according to the comericials so I guess the MPAA looked the other way with some of the violence.

[Charley]

I WANT THE COMICS :(!

[darth_mcbain]

I picked up the novelization April 23rd - actually ended up getting the first one out of the box at the store I went to... But after getting there early to pick it up - I too will not read it until after I've seen the movie. Its sitting on my bookshelf, purposefully hidden behind a few other things so I won't have to look at it every time I walk by and get tempted to leaf through it...

[Jedieb]

JMC, have you glimpsed any of the artwork in the comics? Despite collecting quite a few SW comics, I've been debating on whether to get the AOTC comics. The TPM comic was kind of bland I thought.

[Jedi Master Carr]

I flipped through it but it was a quick filp, I didn't want to look at it longer than a second, from what I saw the artwork looked better than TPM but I didn't get a great look.

[Charley]

The artwork is beyond reproach

[Jedieb]

I picked up #1, but passed on #2 because they only had the photo cover. I really want to get all 4 art work covers. I've never been a big fan of the photo coves, although they seem to be the bigger sellers.

[imported_QuiGonJ]

I agree with Reaper, the Chewie thing was a LucasBooks directive, not Salvatore's idea at all.

But I still didn't like the setup and I hate the Yuuzhan Vong for being the BioBorg.

I might pick up the book on your recommendation DT, but I'll wait till I see the film.

[Jedi Master Carr]

I kind of like the Vong they are different but that is for another thread, I got both 1 and 2 in the Photos I just like them better, don't really know why but they just seem cooler to me.

[ReturnOfTheCB]

I doubt GL said to do something as dumb as dropping a moon on Chewie though :)

Though I dunno, I'm wondering if GL is smoking some death sticks now or something, cause Christopher Lee said Lucas told him SW was older than LOTR :)

[Jedi Master Carr]

I am not really sure what Lee meant by that it was a little confusing, though Lucas could have meant that SW was inspired by more Greek myths (the whole Hero journey thing) while LOTR was inspired more by celtic myths which aren't as old, though it could be Lee he is getting a little old so who knows.

[ReturnOfTheCB]

Hmmm......that issue is a philosophical debate in and of itself. The whole Hero journey (monomyth) idea is, if you consider SW based on Greek mythology, universal, and supposed to be present in all stories/myths/legends. So both of them would technically be based on the same universal idea. Material wise, SW is based on Sci-fi, LOTR is based on Celtic/Norse myths (though argueable Biblically influenced and containing many similar themes) , unless you can convince me that all the SW similar technology was present in The Odyssey :) (j/k)

Maybe GL was just being an ass and claiming "A Long Time Ago..." means it was first before a prehistory Earth :D

Though the thought of Lucas stoned is much more amusing...just stop for a second and think about it :p

[Lilaena De'Ville]

...it might explain a lot about Jar Jar Binks.... :p

[Marcus Telcontar]

LOTR came about for two reasons -

a) it gave Tolkein a story to use his laguages in
b) It was written to give Britian it's own myths.

It is based in part on Nordic and Cetic myths, and tho Tolkein denies it, apparently Christian themes as well.

Lucas himself dsaid SW was inspired by things like Buck Rogers and other serial early Sci-Fi. Bringining in myths didnt begin until at least ESB

[JMK]

The Death Star trash compactor scene has is drawn on from mythology, like being in the belly of the beast type thing. But the majority of mythology wasn't brought in until ESB.

[Jedi Master Carr]

I saw a special on Joseph Campbell and he made comparisons of Luke in ANH to Thesseus and other greek heroes. He said that Luke was beginning on the heroes journey or something like that. Of course this is all Campbell's conjecture who really knows how much Lucas really thought about it though Campbell was a big inspiration on him.

[darth_mcbain]

Yeah - a buddy of mine had seen that program as well and thought it was very interesting how he paralleled Luke with the "Hero's Journey". I found some info on the hero's jouney at http://www.mcli.dist.maricopa.edu/smc/journey/ref/summary.html I can definitely see some connections with Luke and this path, though some of them are a bit of a stretch. These are just my opinions - I haven't seen that program, so maybe I'm off on these. Some of the points are:

The Call to Adventure: Luke is told by Obi-Wan to come with him to Alderaan.

Refusal of the Call: Luke won't go - he's got work to do.

Supernatural Aid: Obi-Wan is a Jedi Knight who guides Luke in the ways of the Force.

The Crossing of the First Threshold: Luke is captured in the Death Star.

The Belly of the Whale: Luke is caught in the trash compactor.

The Road of Trials: Luke has many trials to overcome - the Loss of Obi-Wan, the encounter with the Wampa, The AT-AT attack, etc...

The Meeting with the Goddess: I would classify this is as Luke's meeting with Yoda. This departs a bit from Campbell's definitions, but I think it is close enough.

Woman as Temptress: Again - stretching here, but maybe the duel in the cave would qualify here.

Atonement with the Father: The first duel with Vader

Apotheosis: Luke's escape and subsequent recovery after his duel with Vader.

The Ultimate Boon: Luke has become a Jedi Knight and saves his father.


Just some thoughts - but I think there is enough there to definitely qualify Luke as following the "Hero Journey".

[JMK]

I knew it was all there, just read Star Wars: Magic to Myth, IMO the best Star Wars book out there. It's also great ammo if you get into an argument that with an idiot that says SW is all about special effects and explosions.

[Marcus Telcontar]

Can I ask a question?


Why does anyone NEED a deep and meaningful reason for Star Wars? Why not see it as it is - a homage to old style Sci-Fi Space Opera? When it gets down to it, that's all it ever was in the beginning and for one, it's pretty damn good reason to exist.

It's Space Opera, not a deep myth. If I want deep myth, that's LOTR. And to me, after reading the novel,.... AOTC is Space Opera and damn good too.

[imported_QuiGonJ]

Or may I offer another thought?

George could have said that and been teasing Christopher Lee. :)

Otherwise, well said Marcus.

[darth_mcbain]

Well - to each their own opinion... I think one of the greatest strengths of Star Wars is that it works on so many different levels. It can be thought of simply as a homage to old fashioned space operas; It can be thought of as a simple space adventure; It can be thought of as an allegory of good vs. evil; It can be thought of as a modern re-telling of classic mythological themes.

There is no right interpretation of these movies - all of these are valid ways of looking at it, which means the movies can be enjoyed at whatever level you choose to enjoy them at.

[ReturnOfTheCB]

My point was that yes, Star Wars is inspired by the stages Campbell wrote as the Hero's Journey, but that idea is also that of the monomyth, which Campbell stated and wrote a book on, that all myths and stories in some way were of the Hero's Journey, or the monomyth, so arguing whether or not Star Wars fits the Hero's Journey as compared to LOTR is really pointless if you're using Campbell's philosophy :)

Tolkein doesn't deny that Christian themes are in LOTR, he denies that it was written as an allegory, ie. a story that is written to parallel the stories of either Christianity or WWII, though his friend C.H. Lewis wrote many Christian allegories.

Somehow I imagine GL saying that to Lee, and Lee saying "Have you even READ the book?" :)

[Marcus Telcontar]

Star wars was not inspired by Hero's journey. It's straight out Space Opera. Now ESB and ROTJ could be different, but the original ANH, is just straight out Opera. It doesnt need to be deep and metaphysical, it doesnt need hidden meanings. I hate to say just Space Opera, but that's all it was meant to be in the beginning in ANH and that's all it was.

Discussinons and comparisions to Cambells comments are an attempt to work out why it had such an effect on people, to find out what people see in it. Well, whats wrong with just being a flat out good thing to watch? Like hey, I just love watching it and I love watching the Empire get their comeuppance at the end! There's nothing wrong with a movie existing for special effects and explosions, as long as the SE and explosions are well done! In this case, the SE and explosions are wrapped in a pretty outstanding package

Actually, in a letter to publishers, Tolkien DOES deny Christian themes, citing he hated allegory and thence there was none. I'll dig out and cite a source tonight.

[ReturnOfTheCB]

Common themes and allegory are different entirely. I was merely pointing out that saying SW is older because it is based on the Hero's Journey is really a pointless arguement, because if one uses Campbell's philosophy, all stories are pretty much the same idea, thus LOTR would have that in common with SW and neither one would "technically" be older in source material.

And I believe GL himself said he modeled Star Wars after Joseph Campbell's "Hero's Journey" idea. Space Opera or not, there doesn't HAVE to be anything deep about the Hero's Journey, just a quest that, according to this philosophy, all people go through, and is present in some form, fashion, portion, in all stories. It can be based on both.

McBain, I just remembered. I think the "Woman as a Temptress" IIRC, is supposed to be the figure that lures the hero into the quest, thus Leia's hologram message could count.

[JMK]

Sure, you can call SW a space opera and I'll agree 100%, but much of it is derived upon from myths. McBain is totally right though, SW works on many levels and different people look to certain aspects of the story, be it the sci-fi epic/space opera, or to the deeper mythological overtones. That's why SW is so successful, because almost anyone can see something in it that speaks to them on one level or another.

[ReaperFett]

I still feel SW is more like a classic John Woo film over Sci Fi :)

[ReturnOfTheCB]

curious...what's the definition of Space Opera? I've just always wondered about that.

[ReaperFett]

Its just something people say to sound clever;)

[JMK]

People like George Lucas himself...:p

[darth_mcbain]

Originally posted by ReturnOfTheCB
curious...what's the definition of Space Opera? I've just always wondered about that.

:lol - I was just thinking about that myself...

As for the "woman as temptress" thing, I agree totally with you ROTCB - that makes a lot more sense than what I had come up with.

[ReturnOfTheCB]

Ok, I was wondering if it meant anything more than the two words which form it.....so I guess at the sake of looking like an idiot, it's only an opera in space :) Thought maybe they considered it almost a genre of sorts, or some defining factor or something. Damn me and my overanalyzing things :D

[imported_QuiGonJ]

Uh oh, looks like Marcus could be setting himself up for diasappointment:


"The lure of Salvatore's novel: It has a lot of additional material and "fleshes out the scenes and events (in the film) to give you a broader view"

I just hope the stuff you like so much is actually in the film.

btw, I found this at http://www.theforce.net/books/index.html#16008 .

[Charley]

The first four chapters of the book aren't even in the film :p

[Figrin D'an]

Originally posted by Marcus Q'Dunn
Star wars was not inspired by Hero's journey. It's straight out Space Opera. Now ESB and ROTJ could be different, but the original ANH, is just straight out Opera. It doesnt need to be deep and metaphysical, it doesnt need hidden meanings. I hate to say just Space Opera, but that's all it was meant to be in the beginning in ANH and that's all it was.

Discussinons and comparisions to Cambells comments are an attempt to work out why it had such an effect on people, to find out what people see in it. Well, whats wrong with just being a flat out good thing to watch? Like hey, I just love watching it and I love watching the Empire get their comeuppance at the end! There's nothing wrong with a movie existing for special effects and explosions, as long as the SE and explosions are well done! In this case, the SE and explosions are wrapped in a pretty outstanding package.


Marcus: Pick up a copy of "The Power of Myth" or "The Hero with a Thousand Faces" and you might change your mind. I don't think anyone is denying that ANH had a lot of sci-fi influence (Buck Rogers, Flash Gordon, etc.), but it did contain nearly all of the key characteristics of the hero's quest. It's that mythos that is at the very heart of the story, with the sci-fi action and "space opera" surrounding it to give the tale a different twist and dynamic.

You have to keep in mind that Lucas originally wrote a nine part outline for the basic story of Star Wars, laced with aspects of quest heroism. I would consider ANH a bit different from the rest of the tale (the parts that finally made it/will make it to film, that is) beause it was essentially a "one-shot" film. If ANH didn't stand on it's own, Lucas would never have gotten the financial backing to complete the rest of the story. So, in some ways, ANH is a bit compressed and has a bit more of a "swashbuckling adventure" feel to it. It also contains, however, a compressed version of the hero's journey. The remarkable part, IMO, is how Lucas was, with help from Lawrence Kasdan, Gary Kurtz and Irvin Kirschner, able to take that "micro-myth" within ANH, that had to be self-contained, and reincorporate it so seamlessly into the larger mythos of the greater Star Wars saga.

Just because the myth is applied subtly and blends so well with the rest of the plotline, it doesn't mean that it isn't there.

[Charley]

Space Opera?

Mind you, that most Opera, at least Opera Seria, which is what most people think of when they think about Opera, either derives heavily from, or is an actual myth to begin with.

So when you say its not based on myth, but on space opera, you aren't making any sense :p

[ReturnOfTheCB]

LL, that's why I was wondering if Space Opera had a definition different than regular opera :)

[Charley]

I dunno. I went to my local blockbuster and asked to see their space opera section. They looked at me funny, and sprayed me with seltzer bottles like I was old man Gower or something :cry