The Clean Slate

[Charley]

Lets face the music guys.

Fleeting, as it has been known in this present incarnation, has died.

The New Republic has lost interest in it, and the Empire has lost patience in looking for a rival. The Conclave is...out somewhere, and the Cizerack just sit in their territory and not much else.

Its become an issue of numbers, of mutually-assured destruction, and of boring, mind-numbing statistics, designed to prevent the godmoders and cheaters of yesterday from running ruckshod over everybody's fun game.

Now, its the rules that are choking the life out of this place.

I thought about this for a while, wondering what could be done. What numeric system could be devised to improve the fun, or jump start things.

I realized that the numbers, the statistics, and everything in between are what kills this idea. It can never be fixed in that case...not without expanding the documentation tenfold or greater.

However, I thought about what the roleplayers in other RPs do. In a personal duel, there are no attribute numbers, no hit points, no power lists. Its two or more people interacting only to the wording and language, and approximating gains and losses. And for the most part...it works!

Why hasn't this been applied here? Because we are phobic of the "million SSD fleet" RPers. Well guess what guys? I think everybody who fleets here has enough common sense now to know what is right and what is wrong. Why do we need these numeric restrictions anymore? Why can't fleet RP be subject to the same kind of peer review and conjecture that Jedi/Sith RPs and fights are given.

I think its time to abolish roster lists. Abolish build times. Abolish research and development times. Abolish shipyard counts. Its choking the life out of RP, and I think the major players here are all big enough now to be able to roleplay like the rest of the RP community does.

Please respond with your feelings and opinions, and let me know what you agree on, what you disagree on, and what you might want to change.

[Taylor Millard]

Not a bad idea, but how is this different from the idea DV had about a month ago?

[Charley]

Its not making any party into an NPC. They are still able to be RPed, its just that there are no statistics to keep track of or fret over.

Alot more like personal RP fights.

[General Chang]

Elimination of fleet rules. Something I would pitch for before I were to start agroup *wink wink nudge nudge*

[Taylor Millard]

Okay, sounds more fun to me.

[Gav Mortis]

I couldn't agree more. I think all fleet roleplayers are intelligent enough to accept the truth about the current fleet roleplaying status and pack the common sense to realise that what is important about fleet roleplaying is, like in duels, not how much damage you cause or inflict but how you go about doing it; with the main purpose of it all is to have fun.

Fleets have become mantlepiece trophies as it were, in the sense that all groups have nice, long lists of ships polished up for display, going unused and to waste. I think this is the main reason as to why I lost interest, everyone just systematically kept on adding and adding in an effort to intimidate the opposition with great numbers of ships so that in the end, roleplayers got too bothered about numbers and not bothered enough about the fun aspect of fleet roleplaying.

I give this proposal a two thumbs up - I mean, why not? The current situation is hardly working.

[Vega Van-Derveld]

I always thought the way fleets worked was too confusing and suffocating anyway. I say go for it.

[Live Wire]

YAY!!!!! A voice of reason. Its true rules and regulations have killed a lot of joy around here and while there are going to be problems I think they can be delt with case by case much as we do in the other forums.

[Garrett Blade]

But at the end of the day, a game (this is a game after all, a roleplaying game) needs rules to control it and keep it within acceptable boundaries, otherwise there would be nothing more than complete and utter madness.






































And baby...








<FONT SIZE="5">I'm the KING of MADNESS!!!</FONT>

































<FONT SIZE="7" COLOR="magenta">PARTY ON DUDES!!!</FONT>

[General Chang]

..........

[Charley]

Yes, I agree...rules should be in place. But no more so than what we have in personal RP's

No killing, and no maiming without permission, no godmode.

Might add no capturing and planet-taking without permission

But I don't really think any others would be needed.

Maybe character rank would determine how many ships he could field, what kind of ships, and what kind of tactics.

You wouldn't get mismatches like a Cizerack routing of an Imperial fleet, because that doesn't agree with common sense. An occasional win, maybe, but if a vastly greater opponent matches against a vastly weaker opponent, we're all smart enough to work it out, for the most part.

[Garrett Blade]

Good day to you all. I'm Peter's sane half. Actually I'm less than a fifth of his psychological make-up. I've managed to escape from his unconscious for a few seconds, by distracting him with a simple piece of paper with the letters "PTO" written on both sides, to translate what he just said. In simple, sane terms, he thinks that it is the control and "rules" that have taken away something special from the community - the fleet roleplaying. And if this "motion" is carried forward, apart from hitching a ride on it like the cheap skate that he is (assuming those carrying the motion are strong enough to support his weight also), he will be able to start a roleplay that was previoly inhibited by the "rules and regulations". Anyways, thank you for your time. It's not often I'm able to surface as he's quite domineering over sanity and all that. Goodbye - see you next Christmas maybe.

[Master Yoghurt]

Well, I for one am tired to death of the micro/macro management aspects, which fleet roleplaying has increasingly become. Ship battles should not be about who enters with the most amount of ships, but playing better than your opponent. You should not destroy your opponents ships in one post, or in the shortest amount of time. What is the point of that? It is not like such "powerplay" bordering to God Moding makes the roleplay more realistic or fun to read. I fact, if there were some sense of honor between the players, it would be custom the owner of the fleet posts the damage/loss of ships. You write a story and roleplay = interact with other players, and see where the story goes, then accepts the consequences most realistic in that scenario. I really wish more people would understand that. Perhaps such rules would encourage the players to use common sense.

I am a bit worried though, there might be still be some individuals willing to exploit such rules for easier conquest of planets, or people going bananas with bloated personal "fleets" (personally, I think personal fleets are a self contradicting concept) against major fleet RPing Goverments like NR or Empire. Thats why moderators need to step hard on opportunists.

All in all, I think it is a good proposition.

[Master Yoghurt]

Originally posted by Lounge Lizard
Yes, I agree...rules should be in place. But no more so than what we have in personal RP's

No killing, and no maiming without permission, no godmode.

Might add no capturing and planet-taking without permission

But I don't really think any others would be needed.

Maybe character rank would determine how many ships he could field, what kind of ships, and what kind of tactics.

You wouldn't get mismatches like a Cizerack routing of an Imperial fleet, because that doesn't agree with common sense. An occasional win, maybe, but if a vastly greater opponent matches against a vastly weaker opponent, we're all smart enough to work it out, for the most part.

Good to hear all that clarified. :)

[Vinny Red]

Defiantely on to a good idea. I know I've strayed away from Fleets just fro the simple reason that yes, there is too much involved and the fun factor isn't there. Implimenting these rules should correct that. And bring back the strategy factor taht made fleet fun . Hell if things always went by numbers and how things were on paper, the rebels never would've won any of their battles.

So giddy up, let's do it

[Nathanial K'cansce]

Well, I did have a nice post written up stating my reasons why I'm for it, and problems I forsee with it, but they're nothing more than what others posted.

I say go for it.

That, and the Forum ate that post up. *shakes fist at the bottomless pit*

[Darth Viscera]

Looks good, although I don't really know the details of this suggestion.

[Jamie Throwe]

If this was posted a few months ago, i would of jumped at the chance to change this. The fleets are a good thing to have here, but since TSE got out of rping the fleets and apparently a lot of other groups have left I wonder if even this will help us do anything to salvage whats left.


Look, we basicaly have one group running around claming to own 3/4 ths of the galaxy. Their enemies are all either gone or non-existant (I really can't tell which anymore), and they have the biggest fleet that boggles the mind and basic physics...

You all want a clean slate, you all want to start over, well start there! Find a way to create a sucessful group, one that can stand up to TGE, and find a way to take back the galaxy. We can tweak the rules or do away with them, but from what I read people seem to think that this will change everything. It won't because we are still avoiding the main issue.

We need to restart everything this time. We need to rebuild fleets, defenses, everything. It's just gotten so one sided that a lot of people will not join in.

[Charley]

Vis, if you have any questions, I can answer them

Jamie, please re-read the thread. Your concerns are addressed.

[Lady Vader]

THANK YOU!

Aaaahhhhh... Yes, thank you.

Some of you kow I'm not big into fleet RPs, but it wasn't due to not wanting to fleet RP. It was because the rules and regulations and whatnots almost made it impossible to figure out what was legal and not. So, naturally, with such a huge "wall" in the way, I lost interest.

I think keeping the rules simple like some of the one's LL suggested, and then making fleet RPs just like the typical Jedi/Sith RPs, we could actually make fleet RPing fun again!

[Jamie Throwe]

Ok, lets stop patting eachother on the back.

Look, it's very simple, yes the changes I agree with, but is that enough. Will it change it? We have tried to change the rules before and it didn't work, so before we throw this out the window lets consider someone elses opinion kids.

The main problem IMHO is that we basicaly have one group fleet RPing, where the heck is everyone else. I'd like to hear from everyone involved, or is said to be involved in fleet RPing right now to weigh in on these changes before anything happens.

[Varlon Konrad]

Fleets, as I have viewed them, are much like the Death Star. Plot devices, not centerpieces. Abolishing rosters, build times, etc. would allow us to return fleets to what they are, tools of a story, not a story in themselves. About all I say we should require is technical specs if someone was to bring some non-Canon ship into the roleplay, that way one can effectively roleplay and not have to worry about over- or under-playing it. This, IMO, would make fleet RPs more enjoyable, since we wouldn't be suffering from what started choking Star Trek and Star Wars, overtechnobabble. So, in conclusion, I quote Wayne and Garth...

"Party on, Dudes!"

PS: If this is in any way, a mis-quote, its due to the fact I haven't seen it in forever :lol

[Charley]

Thanks for your chime-ins, LV and Varlon.

Jamie, that is only your perspective opinion. All the major groups still fleet RP, but you're apparently only looking at TGE.

And you are hearing from all those involved.

So far, TGE, NR, Ciz, Conclave, TSO group members have all chimed in with their 2 cents on the matter.

I'm still not sure what exactly you're trying to say.

[Sumor Rayial]

Well I think it's a good idea, it solves one of the major points of problems.

However it doesn't really solve the other. Noone ever wants to lose.

I mean every group in the universe won't agree to losing any of their planets. So because of this fact the only time that we might have a fleet battle is in the middle of nowhere when two groups of ships just "happen" to meet? I don't really see that happening to much cause there is no gain to be had from it.

I have a proposal that I've been mulling over that kinda fits better into this kind of format than the other one, and that kinda addresses what I said above. I'll try and write up a rough draft tonight after my exam.

[Charley]

On that matter, I think planet losses would be handled in much the same manner as the "no kill / maim without permission" rule in normal RP.

I mean, generally it wouldn't be allowed by default, but hell, sometimes its fun for drama's sake. Sure, few planets would switch hands, but then again, how many Jedi and Sith actually accept defeat themesels? Or worse, die from it?

[Sumor Rayial]

Jedi and Sith fights are different though, at least IMHO.

Most open and non planned battles between the two sides usually ends up in a draw. It's how one takes the results back to their group that says whether they won or lost.

For example, if Sumor was to battle Anibra, odds are he could hold his own for a while, but would eventually lose the battle in some form. But I'm not going to go back to TSE and say "I just got my ass kicked by a Jedi" I'm going to say something with the correct political spin on it to not discrace my character (what is dependent on what happens at the end of the thread).

Most people just won't give up their planets. It's not like a Jedi/Sith battle. There are no draws, you win, you have a new planet, you loose you limp back to your territory battered and bruised, there's no middle ground.

[Darth Viscera]

I'll agree to lose a few planets.

[Garrett Blade]

Sorry if I've missed a crucial point that invalidates what I'm about to say, but I have to really :)

To what was said about there being hardly any fleet rpers - they are here (I think) but fleet rping itself is pretty stagnant. So, I have just been talking to Vis about it. He and I are going to - to quote myself here - put the WARS back into Star Wars. And to what was said about people not wanting to lose - my main concern is going to be story and plot. I won't mind if a planet is lost or gained - if it serves the story then it's fine by me. I don't really want to say too much about it as this discussion is still going on, and I don't want to spoil any surprises that might result from this "thing". However I will say one thing, for those of you who've been here long enough to remember...

FWA.

And btw, I was the one who said "PARTY ON DUDES!!!" :p

[Gav Mortis]

As far as I am concerned, planet posession is just a tool that can be used to add to the fun of fleet roleplaying. I don't mind losing a battle or a planet for that matter as long as I make the most out of the roleplay and get enjoyment from it. And that is exactly what we are focusing on now, the enjoyment in fleet roleplaying. By taking out the statistical nonsense, it makes fleet roleplaying a whole lot more accessable to all roleplayers, thus solving the problem that "No-one wants to fleet RP" - if it exists, but I think that is a fallacy anyways.

[Sumor Rayial]

Okay so two people have proved me wrong to a point.

Lemme rephrase my argument though. Noone will agree to give up important planets. Noone really cares about the planets that noone really knows about, but Vis you willing to let the NR take Coruscant? Or Gav is TSO ready to let the TGE take Corellia?

That's my point. When I was in charge of TSE's stuff I could have cared less about the minor planets scattered over the entire galaxy, but there were some planets I would have never agreed to have taken from us, even if it was in this form of RPing.

[Charley]

Okay, well who's to say that can't happen in fleet, too, Sums.

Think about a deadlocked fleet battle, where both sides eventually form a tactical retreat. One admiral tells his superiors his story, and the other tells his superiors his. Yet they both try to spin it in their direction. Nobody wants to tell the Emperor that they lost a star destroyer, etc...so they might say they "valiantly sacrificed themselves", etc

And not every fleet engagement has to mean a planetary takeover. Actually very few fleet encounters result in taking of territory as such. Think of the battle of Jutland, Coral Sea, Trafalgar, etc. The battle fleets simply met up to have a big huge fight.

[Charley]

But once again, its back to the not killing without permission parallel.

Everybody wants to kill the head honcho Sith and Jedi...but honestly, when will that happen, if at all? Maybe it will...but if it does, its rare.

Just like it should be.

[Darth Viscera]

Sure, someone could take Coruscant if it was a really good story and battle. *shrug*

[Gav Mortis]

In all honesty Sumor, when it comes to planet possession...

<CENTER>http://learndifferent.clanpages.com/ll/ratsass.jpg</CENTER>


:)


I know there are some in TSO who would not want to lose Correlia, but if you use the analogy of the Jedi/Sith duel again. Think of it like this: Correlia is to TSO what the life of a persons character is to the roleplayer. 99.9% of the time, you will not allow your character to be killed off because you want to continue with him/her. So as a comprimise, you take a severe beating. Similarly, TSO would accept the loss of a secondary planet but not the homeworld.

[Morgan Evanar]

I like most of the points above proposed by Charley.

Edit: Oh yeah, and if you say you put 40% of your fleet in one system, I reserve the right to laugh at you, call you stupid, and promply pursue your empty planets.

[Jamie Throwe]

Let me make this clearer...

The first time we made these rules people just took advantage of the loop holes and went nuts.

The second time we made these rules people complained, took advantage of the loop holes, and went nuts.

ect..

Look I think at this point this is a huge mistake. Doing away with the majority of the rules is almost as pointless as the pointless and now countless revisions we've gone through. Just make sure no one abuses these new rules...

[Charley]

It would be essentially like seeing somebody mode in a duel.

The consensus would pull them aside, and inform them of their mistakes.

The thing is, there are no loopholes in this system to hide behind, since its all open to interpretation and conjecture.

[Master Yoghurt]

If you look at the missions in X-Wing, few if any are about planetary conquest. And who said you need 10+ star destroyers to commence a battle. A freighter or a couple fighters is all you need to start something. Take out some cargo contrainers, attack an outpost, patrol for fighters. They might not look much on its own, but these sort of skirmishes have a role in the greater picture, just like in any war. In my opinion, such scenarios make for more interesting stories than people realise. Not every thread has to be all grand and mighty.

Want a good fleet battle? Contact someone, agree about mission objectives, a small number ships on each side, then have a duel. You might be surprises how fun it may be. Used to do these threads with General Scorpion when he was in RSO.

[Gav Mortis]

I couldn't agree with you more on that one, Yog.

EDIT: OMG! How much of a hypocrite do I sound!? After roleplaying the construction of an 82 km star destroyer! :eek

[Morgan Evanar]

Skirmishing along trade routes/borders would probably be very common.

[Darth Viscera]

ooh, that sounds like fun.

(is being sincere)

[Lady Vader]

I'll chime in for the heck of it...

I agree with Gav... I would mind if Corellia was taken from TSO. It's kinda like an attachment to me and I know also to LW and a few others. It just has a deeper meaning to me and my character in my RPing, seeing as how most f her history has taken place there.

I guess it's kinda like a sentimental thing...

Anyways, chime over.

*Waves hand.*

You may go about your business.

[Darth Viscera]

...I will go about my business.

[Charley]

Gav was just acknowledging the feeling, LV...not agreeing with it.

[Lady Vader]

*Puts hand away.*

Oops... I should be careful where I wave my hand. :lol

Oh, well, I still wouldn't want Corellia taken from TSO. That's my feeling on it.

I like what Yog said about contacting said person or persons about a fleet battle RP thingy. And it's true it doesn't have to be about planetary take-overs. Hell, I personally like space skirmishes. Nothing like flying my advanced TIE Interceptor and opening the engines all the way. :)

[Gav Mortis]

Bloody hell! Women even get emotionally attatched to planets! If there was ever an "Armageddon" scenario and we had to evacuate the planet and live on Mars, the women wouldn't want to leave and God would end up killing a lot of kittens on Mars. :lol

[Darth Viscera]

There's a kitten outside my house. He sits on the patio, waiting for Hermes to come out and play.

[Lady Vader]

*Beats the bloody hell out of Gav... just for the head of it. And then for good measure, gives him the evil-eye-of-death-lazer-stare. Watches him get flattened.*

Kittens are cuuuuuuuuute! I remember when my kitty was a kitten. he was the fiestiest of the lot. Now he's a big ol butterball behemoth. :lol

[Darth Viscera]

lol what a coincidence. Just last night I was calling Ares my little Butterball :)

crazy ESP cali girl you

[Darth Lynch]

Why not just make homeworlds off limits and have all others fair game then?

Its mostly the homeworld many like to perserve and keep because its in some ways like a person's virtual home.

Who wants to loose that? Its as LV said, an emotional tie that can form. To loose a planet or have it nuked by someone can drop moral in a group at times, I've seen that happen before to both the Jedi and TSE when it happened to them, Kinda bizarre but hey its the net and this is Swfans, bizarre is its middle name.

Just a thought.

BTW nice idea I must say, this could boost up fleets again at swfans if everyone can work with each other on it. Cause it will take more then just words to make it work.

[Charley]

I think just a permission rule in general should be sufficient when planetary takeovers are in question. Declaring them off limits in a piecemeal fashion just bars the consideration of such an attack. Who knows...in an effort to shake up drama, a group might actually accept it...be it temporarily or something more permanent.

No problem in asking permission IMO, I mean, they have to acknowledge it in their post anyways...might as well :)

[Marcus Telcontar]

bout time Common sense and fair play was made tohe only real rule. Long overdue.


I would say that some planets are open game - big important ones like Coruscant. Whyo should a group just squat on a planet like that? I would thik Corellia is another. Where a planet is less important Galactic wise, like say a Mondu Cordu, Arcan IV or Yavin, then discussion must be made beforehand. I would ban sudden attacks - to foster trust, discussions must take place. Some types of planets, like Arcan IV or Mondu Cordu, which are in the galatic scheme of things insignifigant. I would suggest that if a group does not wish to have their home disturbed, then it must be a virtually unknown and insignifigant one to be allowed to be immune.

Places like Yavin IV, Endor and Tattooine are insignifigant planets Galatic wise, but for us are emotionally important as a lot of what we do is based on them, especially Yavin I think. Tattooine is already held to be a planet that cant be taken over and is totally open for all to use. Maybe Yavin is nominally Jedi, but becomes an open place as well? I dont know.

Whatever the case, major systems on a Galatic scale should not be made offlimits. Minor ones, yeah, no problem there.

[Charley]

I honestly don't think thats an issue that matters. Planets, like players lives, won't be at risk unless allowed, etc. There doesn't need to be extra legislature to cover something like that. We're trying to depart from that trend.

[Sumor Rayial]

Okay now that I'm back from acing an exam and before I watch some movie I've never even heard of...

I was just trying to be a bit of the devils advocate since noone brought it up. I agree that most shouldn't be around planets. I've tried a few different times to make up little groups that would just run around doing the Sith version of the X-wing stories. They never materialized though for various reasons.

Anyway I'm about dead on my feet so whatever people decide is pretty much cool with me.

[Charley]

So is this good for everybody? Or should we wait?

Do you guys want something more formal written out, or are the rules pretty well summed up here as it is?

[Live Wire]

I think everything that has been said has been excellent. And yes Im one of those that thinks that all planets should be up for grabs except the groups home planet. As long as that is a rule then Im for everything else stated here. It will be nice to do interesting fleet RP's instead of the bs that used to go on.

[Charley]

As stated above, planet grabs would fall under the "need permission" rule...homeworlds or otherwise.

[Gav Mortis]

I honestly don't believe a rule stating that homewolrds are out-of-bounds is neccessary when you can simply deny the planetary take-over of the groups respective homeworld. I would love to see a group get kicked off their planet every now and then, it would be very interesting to have to regroup or watch others regroup.

[Charley]

(Agrees with Gav much)

[Garrett Felth]

It would make their retaliation that bit more exciting and dramatic!

[ReaperFett]

Just to confirm, Tatooine WAS made to be locked neutral. Doesnt mean you cant USE it in theory though. SUppose that needs looking at.

One question though. Is there a way to accomodate independants? For example, could a person without a planet start playing, and if so, how?

[Charley]

Yes, Tattoine could simply be a venue for a battle, but nobody could claim control, just as it is with ground fights

Yes, a single person could get into fleets. It would be like a small-time force, or a rag-tag group of pirates. Their power would be limited, and their forces would be small, and generally unable to match larger groups, but they could get into small brushfire skirmishes.

[Garrett Blade]

Just pretend I posted using my Garrett Felth account :p

And if there were a number of such mercenarious/pirate groups, they could pool their resources if the situation called for it and form an impressive - albeit ragtag as LL said - armada. I personally thing that is incredibly cool!!! Reminds me of one of the original screenplays for Alien 3!

It also gives me an idea! :)

[Alec Lafeyette]

I can't wait. Without rules, we have more room for imagination as long as it's sensible. Even if this doesn't turn out for the better, I don't see why we can't think of something else. :)

[Pierce Tondry]

Heh!

Now this is more like it. I'm glad I lost those silly, bulky rules to my old computer's demise.

Here is my thinking so far:

Everything is good now.

It is obvious that independants who attempt to build Death Stars will get slapped silly before they get far, so that is no longer needed as a rule.

It is also obvious that people are focussing not on the taking of planets so much as the space fights themselves.

Finally, it is obvious that people are willing to consider the situations of those outside their own group and think of whether or not they would like an invasion fleet at their door.

I personally think that a group's Core planets (planets of particular military, commercial, bureaucratic, agricultural, industrial, etc. importance) should be able to be attacked, but actually losing them would be up to the owning group themselves.

I would love to haul the New Republic over to Corellia and liberate it from those cussed TSO hooligans. I also wouldn't mind being forced to flee Chandrila, Pierce's homeworld.

A good proposal, Sanny Boy.

[Taataani Meorrrei]

Aim to please as always ^_^;

[Telan Desaria]

This is something of a question of form...

As all of you know, my best character, Telan Desaria, has fallen out of favor with the Empire, and has taken his small in number but rather powerful as it is heavy on the SDs, and is searching for a home. Now, my plans are to take everybody to my old home planet of Centaur and diplomatically take it over, Ysanne Isard-ish so it's legal. Now, I'm hoping to make a group out of this, and had a question-could I still do this>>>

I wanted to, shortly-about a week-after I had taken the planet-lead portions of my fleet on little forays into surrounding territory, which is both Imperial and NR. Would all this be allowed? Can I maintain and eventually build new ships? I just want to have fun...

[Sanis Prent]

If you can find 4 people to put in a group, then yes you can take a planet as such and be a "group"

But otherwise, you're just a pirate faction with little real military strength. What you "stole" from the Galactic Empire doesn't effectively matter anymore.

[Telan Desaria]

For the record, Moff Schreiger, I only'stole' as you put it four ships from the Empire. The rest I built under contract from Sith and Guild yards...

[Taataani Meorrrei]

As previously stated, it is irrelevant and does not matter.