A Time of Crisis

[Jedi Master Carr]

Well it looks like the Middle East could explode any second, Israel forces are making a move on Arafat's HQS they already bombed it and I have no idea what else they have planed, it looks like they are going to have a huge escelation of forces and start sending troops into all the palestinian cities. This is frieghting because this could anger the Arab League and could escelate it even farther, especially if Iran, Saudi Arabia, Egypt, Syria, etc decide to help out there Arab brothers in Palestine, if this happens what will the U.S do? I pray we don't send troops in, that would be foolish because it is not our affair. I almost tempted to say let them kill each other because that is almost the way I feel about the whole situation (I really don't see any good guys here to me they are just all the same) maybe we should try to talk to our Arab allies to end it. Really what I fear is Iran, because both Iran and Israel have nukes, what if one of them decided to launch one at the other that would basically cause a nuclear war destroying 75% of the Middle East that would be a catastrophe, I just hope somebody would step up and start negotiating because the worst case scenerio is too horrorfying to ignore.

[Doc Milo]

Read the Book of Revelation in the Bible....

One can argue that many of the signs of the apocalypse have all come to pass..... And that this may just be another .... depending on how it all turns out...

I just hope the world doesn't end before Episode III is done...

[Jedi Master Carr]

I hope this is no sign, hopefully this trouble will end quickly with as little bloodshed as possible.

[ReaperFett]

There will never be an end to it over there.

[Admiral Lebron]

Israel is fed up. They are doing the exact same thing that USA did in Afghan.

[Jinn Fizz]

I have to admit, I'm very nervous about the whole situation. I'd really like to see even just one day go by without someone blowing themselves up over there. The fact that it was a 16-year-old girl who did it this morning is just all the more tragic.

[Jedi Master Carr]

I think its an entirely different situation personally, because neither side is right. One you got a war criminal as president of Israel (he might become a convicted war criminal if the Hague has its way) and a terrorist in control of the Palestians so I don't see either side as being right. Also I find it ironic that the Israelis are doing the same thing to the Palestians that the Romans did them about 2000 years ago (the Jewish Zealots staged similar revolts killing Roman soliders and Roman citizens causing hell to be released on them first in 70 AD with the destruction of their Temple and then about 40 years later with their expultion from Isreal and the Romans renaming it Palestine).
I also find it weird that Jews and Muslims basically have gotten along pretty good until the last 60 years. The Jews had pretty good previlages in the muslim world and lived better lives there then under Christian rule. Jews were routinely killed in the Middle Ages especially during the Black Death when they were blamed for it and many were hung, and not to mention the Inquistion in Spain where Jews were tortured and killed and eventually expelled in 1492. It was the Muslims that allowed some of the Jews to come back to Palestine in the first place, if the Christians were in charge they probably would have killed them or turned them away. Oh well nothing we can do but hope that things won't get any worse.

[Sanis Prent]

I find myself supporting Israel less and less as these things happen.

They've gotta give Ariel Sharon (sp) the boot. He's awful.

Its time we stopped blindly taking their side, and realize that we essentially destroyed the Palestinian state, to appease displaced European post-Holocaust Jews. Yes, its good they have a state of their own, but not at the expense of another.

I like to say I'm a fan of macchiavellianism, but its not exactly a great diplomatic theme.

How do you fix this? I think its beyond fixing. Neither side is willing to acknowledge the other's existence in the given geography. This fighting is only going to continue. Frankly, we've nobody to blame but ourselves.

[JMK]

One solution could be to confiscate all of their firearms, bombs, and weapons of mass destruction, and let them fight with daggers and rocks. :)

Joking aside though, this is scary.

[Admiral Lebron]

Honestly, what Palastine is saying is that they want to be in the holy land, though how it is holy is beyond me since the Korran mentions Jerusulum never. So by doing so, they are using acts of terrorism which breaks Israeli law. It's pretty simple. I will admit, Shannon isn't that great a leader, but he's got his mind set on the right thing, get rid of the terrorists, I.E Arafat.

[Doc Milo]

I like to say I'm a fan of macchiavellianism, but its not exactly a great diplomatic theme.

This struck me as either odd, or a typo...

You're a fan of the attitude that "the ends justifies the means"? In other words, it doesn't matter how you accomplish something, as long as it gets accomplished? So, it's okay to do anything and everything in order to do what you set out to do? "Yeah, I had to kill four people to do this, but it will save 20,000 . . ." That's fine in your eyes? It's okay to commit any evil act, as long as it's done for a good end? If everything turns out fine in the end, if the end is a positive result, it doesn't matter how that end was accomplished?

I beg to differ -- unless this was a typo...

[Champion of the Force]

though how it is holy is beyond me since the Korran mentions Jerusulum never.
Isthmael (sp?), son of Abraham, being born there.

Muhammad believed to have risen to heaven at the site of the Dome of the Rock in Jerusalem.

Sounds pretty holy to me.


I will admit, Shannon isn't that great a leader, but he's got his mind set on the right thing, get rid of the terrorists, I.E Arafat.
Is this the same Sharon who rejected Arafat's offer of an unconditional cease-fire just now?

From what I've seen Arafat has been ripping his hair out over these terrorist activities. He's also been willing to come to the table for talks on multiple occassions, but Sharon keeps throwing in excuses not to meet.

Not that Arafat is any angel, but it's certainly not a 'Good Guy vs. Bad Guy' scenario - they're all as bad as one another.

[JonathanLB]

They cannot deal with their problems intelligently whatsoever. With a bit of luck, maybe the entire Middle East will fall off the map and the rest of the world will be rid of that giant smelly armpit.

All of those countries are an utter embarrassment to humanity.

[Marcus Telcontar]

While I dont agree with the words exactly, some of that sentiment is correct. No side is innocent in this, not a one. About the only solution is to seal off the area and then let the lot just have it out. Israel will never back off for anyone. The Arabs want Israel wiped out. It's goign to end in war, maybe not now, but one day.

The real problem is the fact some of these lunatics have access to weapons of mass destruction. The only thing that held back nukes in the cold war was MAD (Mutually Assured Destruction) and the fact neither side wanted that. Neither side was suicidal, they cared to live!

This is different. Israel if backed against a wall, or in a last ditch survival, WILL nuke the neigbours. They dont care. They have shown themselves willing to do anything to survive. The Arabs know this and that's what stays them now. Hussein is after nukes to get Israel. I bet he would throw one at Tel aviv if he could. And what would he care? I bet he's got places to shelter if Israel flung them back.

The only thing good in this is that the other world powers (like USA,China, Russia) desperatly dont want a war either. At least I pray the USA doesnt. I dont think Russia or China would want to have anything to do with a full on war in the middle east.

Now I like GW Bush, dont get me wrong. But knowing he holds the final firing orders gives me no comfort. Nuclear War for a civilised nation MUST be unthinkable. Isn't it?

In the end, it's going to be war in the Middle East again one day. It WILL happen, not if. Israel I think will survive. I dont like the chances of other places however in the area.

Now about Revelation - if you really want a big indicator the End Times are now, ask if the Jewish Temple will be rebuilt and how soon.

[JonathanLB]

OH MY GOD! The end of the world is coming! Please, spare me.

There is no God, there is no end of the world coming, there is no any nonsense like that. As long as we don't kill each other, I wouldn't worry about it. I don't think anyone wants to use nuclear weapons. I don't believe that is going to happen that any civilized country would really even consider them. They are just big talkers, so are we, it was just something you say you are going to do because if you act wussy people will push you around.

We used two really tiny nukes more than a half-century ago. Ok, sure, yeah they killed a lot of people but tiny relative to what we are capable of doing now. Hehe, those bombs were like hand grenades next to our nuclear capabilities today. Plus, they were very well used weapons. We saved American lives. Although it is debatable, I believe we saved overall human lives because a war on the homeland of Japan, street to street, etc. would have probably resulted in a million dead (or more?). In all honesty, though, I don't care about the overall cost. I care about American lives. If it saved one American life it was worth a million Japanese lives. They attacked us, they asked for it. Any citizen of an unjust goverment is supporting that government through tacit approval, and when they came and attacked us without provocation, they brought those two nukes on themselves. It was the right thing to do. We gave them every chance to avoid it. Showed them a test bomb, they apparently thought we were bluffing, i.e. they were apparently too stupid to live anyway, and we hit a city. They obviously were too stupid to respond with surrender and we hit them again. Finally the stubborn idiots gave up after that.

In war, there is no gray area. There is good, there is bad. There is black, there is white as far as military action is concerned. Although I don't agree with hitting civilian targets specifically, it's just collateral damage. War is not a chess game, it's a bloody mess where people who do not deserve to die get killed anyway, and usually just because of a few idiotic people at the top. The enemy soldiers half the time are just as innocent as the civilians. They are just fighting for their country, they may not believe in whatever cause it is even, they are just taking orders. Just because a person is fighting on the other side doesn't make them a bad person, but it does make them the enemy. Good people die on both sides, though. Civilians too (sad, but true).

Today, though, no nukes. That's a very bad idea. I don't think they should be used at all. I think even talking about using them is kind of idiotic. I really don't see what good so much force does when I believe that most problems can be solved between two countries with diplomacy. Of course, with terrorists, that's another story entirely. Just don't use nukes. I have no problem with pounding the hell out of a country that supports terrorists, in fact I think we should bomb them so hard it creates a new sea, but nuclear weapons are simply too large-scale, too destructive. It's like using a shotgun to kill a fly. Jeez, that's what they made fly swatters for...

[Jedi Master Carr]

You're a fan of the attitude that "the ends justifies the means"? In other words, it doesn't matter how you accomplish something, as long as it gets accomplished? So, it's okay to do anything and everything in order to do what you set out to do? "Yeah, I had to kill four people to do this, but it will save 20,000 . . ." That's fine in your eyes? It's okay to commit any evil act, as long as it's done for a good end? If everything turns out fine in the end, if the end is a positive result, it doesn't matter how that end was accomplished

I have never thought of Machavellia in that way, but still I don' think his political ideology really works today. It worked really when you were dealing mainly with monarchys, aristocracy and dictator. Sure I think it worked for rulers like Cardinal Richelieu, Louis XIV, Leopold of Austria, Catherine the Great, etc But that was a different area, and I don't think it would work today.

Back to our current situation, I disagree with the ones that wouldn't mind seeing the Middle East gone it would be a bad thing. First off I don't want to see 100 Million People wiped out, that is really a bad thing in my book, probably the worst thing that could ever happen. Second believe me it would affect us, first there is the radiation that would spread all over the globe, causing an increase in cancer, second do you realize that 60% of the world's oil is there that would hurt the world real quick, countries would start losing their power and that would lead to world starvation and probably could end up killing Millions if not somewhere as high as 2 billion people (believe the western world could not survive with out electricity because everything is tied up into to it). That is why these situtation is so dire and why we must hope that it ends as quickly as possible.

[Champion of the Force]

There is no God

:: bites tongue :: :|


Plus, they were very well used weapons. We saved American lives. Although it is debatable, I believe we saved overall human lives because a war on the homeland of Japan, street to street, etc. would have probably resulted in a million dead (or more?).
It is very debatable. Afterall, by the time the bomb was dropped Tojo had been given the boot and a new government had been installed in Japan and was actually attempting to seek a conditional peace treaty with the Allies.

Problem for them was that they tried to do it through Stalin - who knew a country on its knees when he saw one and was willing to take the advantage.

Could a peace treaty been reached if things went according to plan. Possibly - it's debatable as you said.

And I'm not even going to go into the issue of whether the dropping of the 2 bombs was more of a propaganda weapon against the Soviets than it was for ending the war against Japan.


I have no problem with pounding the hell out of a country that supports terrorists, in fact I think we should bomb them so hard it creates a new sea.
.. which would probably result in more terrorists. That's nice, but would you ever try to find out why that country is supporting terrorists in the first place (just curious)?

[Jedi Master Carr]

I agree with you that is why peace must happen or the cycle will never end unless they want to round all the Palestinians up and kill them which would not be something that they would do or should even be contimplated. I wish the US would do more like send Powell over there or maybe even Bush should go, that is what a President should do. I am also fearing the rise of Benjamin Netahyahoo(can't spell his name but decided to put the yahoo in there because he is a yahoo :P). He is scary too because he has been going on TV saying Arfat needs to be killed and the Palestians need to be dealt with and saying language that would make Hitler proud. He has gotten very popular with his hatemongering and might come back in power if Sharon's support falters (which it already is) if he comes to power watch out because the middle east will probably explode. He would assassinate Arfat and probably start rounding up anybody he thinks is terrorist, probably then though the Arab countries would probably invade or something cause another huge Arab-Israel war.

[Champion of the Force]

BTW there's a discussion about this going on at TFN's Senate Floor. Here's the link:

http://boards.theforce.net/message.asp?topic=6225299&replies=52

Makes for some interesting reading. :)

[Jedi Master Carr]

I can't believe a few of them think a war is a good thing, one doesn't think Egypt or Syria would fight Israel because they have peace treaties. Those treateis can easily be broken especially if Arfat dies or something else bad happen. And they think we will fight on the side of Israel we better not, why should we defend them. If they want to go to war with the Arabs let them, we don't need to send our troops in their getting our people killed. Also there is a greater risk of nuclear war with an all out war, especially with Iran who has them if there government thought they would be ousted they would probably launch them and the middle east would then be pretty much history. And it doesn't look like things are getting any better two more suicide bombings, will the cycle ever end?

[JonathanLB]

I really don't care what the reason for someone being a terrorist is anymore than I care what the reason for a murder is. It just doesn't matter. Terrorists deserve to die. One problem with these stupid countries over there is they quite literally ARE stupid. We need to go over there and establish some democracies and throw out all of these dictators because the media over there is so idiotic they just formulate whatever silly stories they want and people somehow actually believe it.

They are literally totally ignorant idiots. They would believe anything their biased media tells them.

"...a conditional peace treaty..."

Uhh, no thanks. We were not interested. Unconditional surrender or nothing.

That debate does not need to happen again now, but when I think of those two bombs dropping on Japan I definitely think, "Dang straight, we showed those b*stards for coming over here and attacking us." What a bad, bad, bad move. Nobody has tried that again since.

I really like Japan now, it's an awesome country, but sometimes you have to whip these people into line. The U.S. is #1, if a country needs reminding of that I am sure it could easily be arranged.

[Jedi Master Carr]

Well it depends on who you categorize a terrorist, there were people who targeted civillians and commited acts of terrorists against the Nazis and they are treated as heros. There are other examples of this, I would have to really think about it though to come up with terrorists made into heros. I think it really depends on the situation really, if you are fighting a war, I am not sure if you can call somebody a terrorist even if they target civillians, because if you did than the US and Britain would be guilty of doing that in the bombing of Dresden and the droping of the atomc bomb.

[Champion of the Force]

I really don't care what the reason for someone being a terrorist is anymore than I care what the reason for a murder is. It just doesn't matter. Terrorists deserve to die.
That's a big pity Jon, because if you ever bothered to look into it you'd probably find out why they'd be flying planes into buildings in the first place.

Part of the way to solve problems is to find out why it occured in the first place.


One problem with these stupid countries over there is they quite literally ARE stupid. We need to go over there and establish some democracies and throw out all of these dictators because the media over there is so idiotic they just formulate whatever silly stories they want and people somehow actually believe it.
Ironically half of them were put in or supported by the US, until they didn't continue to serve US interests.

Did you know Iran was US friendly democracy up until the 1950s?

That changed when they wanted to review their oil policy. The US and Britain realised it would make their precious oil more expnsive, they they helped support a coup of the government that put in the current regime - the one George W. is now saying is part of the Axis of Evil. :rolleyes

The US then supported Iraq to try and topple the Iranian government. We now see where that went don't we?

Same with Cuba. People keep going on about how bad Castro is. Ironically he came in after toppling the previous dictator which the US had supported because the US had its naval base and banana crops there and didn't want to risk losing them to any other potential government that could have been set up.

The list goes on and on.

Not that I'm saying we should yield and bow to them all now, however it would make sense why most of them don't give 2 cents to what the West says and does (not just the US - most Western nations tag along with it so we're all responsible) because they've been screwed over again and again.


That debate does not need to happen again now
I agree. We're debating the here and now, not WW2. But ...


What a bad, bad, bad move. Nobody has tried that again since.
*cough*Twin Towers*cough*

[JediBoricua]

You know what the main problem here is, those tanks you see on CNN they are US made, those missiles you see israelis launching, they are US made, those M-16 israelis troopers are carrying, they are US made. It can be said that Israel is the biggest US colony in the world. The bottom line is that the US has to support Israel because it is the only country on the region that represents it's interests. By having the jews down there the US has a 'legal' way to keep the arabs, and their oil wells in check.

The reason I liked Clinton's policy way better that Bush's is because Bill at least tried to bring a peaceful end to this mess. He organized, and participated personally on various meetings and reunions and almost had a deal arranged if it wasn't for the right-winged israelites and parliament who elected Sharon, who has been quoted as saying his biggest mistake was not killing Arafat on the 80's when he had the chance. Bush is merely an 'observer' of the current events, which once agains proves his ignorance of foreign policy and the ways of other cultures. One week they support Saudi Arabia's plan of a compromise in the Middle East, the next week they don't say anything when Israel troop invade every major arab city in Palestine.

Of course, Arafat is no angel of mercy. If he has not supported directly terrorism, at least he has known for years where terrorist hide and by not going after them he has helped them. But at least he has been giving some solutions and has been willing to talk, while Sharon just wants his head.

I think the US has to have a more active role, join by England, and the EU. That emissary they have sent has proven a failure, and Powell must make a visit to the Middle East as soon as possible. They have made an ultimatum to Arafat to actively move against terrorism, good move. Now they have to give an ultimatum to Israel to stop this offensive, accordingly to the UN resolution approved this weekend, or they will cut down the billions of dollars of foreign aid they recieve yearly.

Another thing, we cannot be blind and calling all that oppose the american way of life terrorists. Those who blew up the towers, deserve justice, there is no way around that. They must pay for their crimes. But that event does not give the US or any country the right to go around playing globe police. You have to understand that until injustice exists in the world there will be people to stand against it, and some of them will be a bit violently. Remember that Luke, Han, Leia and the Rebellion were terrorist to the Empire, and that Washington and the American Patriots were terrorist to the British Empire.

[Doc Milo]

Let's look at this logically.

There have been many Israeli leaders from the start of this peace process that have run the political spectrum -- from the arch conservatives who would not deal with Arabs at all, to the ultra liberals who would have signed over, and did offer to give, 90% of Israel away. From Netanyahu, to Barrack to Sharon. (I'm sure I'm forgetting someone, was Rabin in there somewhere?)

In the United States there have been many political leaders that run the poilitical spectrum, from hardliners like Reagan and Bush, to a president who would have accepted any peace deal to secure his own legacy in Clinton, to Bush II.

And yet, with all those variables changing (and the easiest combo ever set up in Barrack/Clinton -- someone who offered 90% of Israel, and a US President who would have signed onto any peace deal to secure his own legacy) there is still no peace.

Obviously, the variables are not at fault. So where do we look? We must look to the one constant throughout the entire mess. There is where you will find the one person who does not want peace: Yassar Arafat.

There is no negotiation with people like him. They are not content to accept a Palestinian state. They will settle for nothing less than the destruction of all of Israel.

If all agreed that Jerusalem should declared something similar to the Vatican in Rome, and if Israel agreed to give up the "occupied territories" (although, they were fairly won in a war...) to create a Palestinian State. There would still be one party that didn't agree. And that party would be led by Yassar Arafat. They are not willing to deal with anyone, they will not negotiate any peace, unless it includes the total annihilation of Israel. This is a fact. It is also a fact that that is not going to happen.

[Jedi Master Carr]

I don' think Netenyahoo or Sharon want peace they are both warmongers, Netenyahoo I think is scary he is acting like he is ready to take on the who arab world (I think he is nuts), I do agre that Arfat is not perfect two bad we couldn't get two new leaders to deal with because it will never work with these men in power. Now Rabin was a great man who truly wanted peace and what happens some religious zealot (he was Jewish) kills him, there has been whispers that Sharon or Netenyahoo was behind it (could just be conspriarist stuff but they did hate Rabin for striking that deal at Oslo).

[Doc Milo]

My point is that the variables in both Israel and the US change -- there have been leaders of various stripes, from those who don't want peace to those who would give up almost the entire nation for it -- and yet there is no peace. Arafat is more than just "not perfect" he is the reason there is not peace. He is the one constant.

Of course, when there is peace between Israel and the Arab world, you should look to who brings that peace about, who is it that made the deal -- and consider him dangerous (more precisely, consider him Antichrist) -- especially if it is a 7 year agreement. For Antichrist will enter into a seven year peace with Israel, and that is the start of the Great Tribulation foretold in the book of Revelation.

[Jedi Master Carr]

I think Arfat seemed pretty geninue when Rabin was in power of course I can't remember how long after Oslo that he was assissnated, but there still seemed to be hope under Simone Perez(sp) all that seemed to change when Netenyahoo came to power and the suicide bombings started getting worse.

[Doc Milo]

Arafat says one thing and means another. Nothing that comes out of his mouth can be trusted. He will not make any deal that doesn't include the end of Israel as a nation. Arafat is evil. Plain and simple. He's lucky that any Israeli leader will even come to the negotiating table. Israel won that land that they claim is "occupied territory" in a war of agression started against them. When they took the land, it was a desolate and unliveable desert, and what wasn't desert was swamp. It was the Israelis that irrigated the land and made it liveable, made it into what it is today. When you hear "Israel kicked the Palestinians out of their homes" you get the sense that there were these Palestinians sitting in their back yards, having a bbq when the evil Israeli army marched in and took over everything. This is not the case. Hardly anyone lived in those areas. It was desolate. They took the areas after winning them in a war; they kept them for their strategic value in the defense of Israel. I see no reason why Israel even has to come to the table. Yet they do. And they deal with a terrorist monster that doesn't know a syllable of truth.

[Jedi Master Carr]

The reason why they have to is prevent a greater war. There is bigger threats now because of the situation that is brewing in the Middle East all of the Arab states could join up and invade Israel if this keeps up and that would cause the worst war since at least Korea. There is also the problem that Iran has nukes and if the war went sour for them I feel they might use them and wipe Israel off the map, that is why there has to be peace because of the fear of what could happen. You said Arfat is evil and I don't completely disagree with you but I also think Sharon is evil he is a war criminal who commited mass genocide by wiping out women and children in the 82 war, and he is still faced with war crimes that are now being argued in the hague. That is why I think somebody should force the two states to remove their leaders and put in new ones who might actually want peace.

[Darth Viscera]

especially if Iran, Saudi Arabia, Egypt, Syria, etc decide to help out there Arab brothers in Palestine,

Just FYI, Iranians are not arabs. There is a very large difference. We Iranians are caucasians, while arabs are not, and in the north of Iran you'll find inhabitants with blond hair and blue eyes, etc. I hope this isn't making me sound like some white supremacist, it's just that I don't like it when people are unaware of such misconceptions. I mean, it's the difference between two races. We're more like the Turks than we are like the iraqis or the palestinians. There are more Iranians (20+ million) who primarily speak Turkish or Turkish dialects than there are living Iraqis.

Main Entry: Cau·ca·sia
Pronunciation: ko-'kA-zh&, -sh&
Variant(s): or Cau·ca·sus /'ko-k&-s&s/
region SE Europe between the Black & Caspian seas; divided by Caucasus Mountains into Cis.cau.ca.sia /"sis-/ (to the N) & Trans.cau.ca.sia /"tran(t)s-/ (to the S)

You'll find that we actively engage the UAE in any dispute we can dig up, and have killed many, many arabs in the 80's. Certainly far more than all of Israel's feeble and relatively bloodless wars combined. Please, we're Persians, not Arabs, nor are we their brothers, hence all the dead Iraqis during the Iran-Iraq war.


CotF:


Did you know Iran was US friendly democracy up until the 1950s?

That changed when they wanted to review their oil policy. The US and Britain realised it would make their precious oil more expnsive, they they helped support a coup of the government that put in the current regime - the one George W. is now saying is part of the Axis of Evil.

*scratches head* Are you saying that the shaw is part of the axis of evil? The CIA helped prop up the Shaw, a good man who supported westernization (prior to 1979 there were a good deal of KFC's in Iran) who was then ousted by a bunch of college hippies who were being manipulated by Khomeini and the farcical "Allahu Akbar" which had to be strung up on a puppet line so the Ayatollah could watch his saturday morning cartoons, which he greatly enjoyed btw.

We should have sent in the Army to kick the ass out of these rabid theocrats and liberate Iran back in 1979, but we couldn't. Why? Vietnam. If the South Vietnamese had been a bit more grateful, the U.S. would have felt good about "meddling", having been given positive results in the past. But the South Vietnamese were lazy dicks, and decided, "To hell with Iran". Who needs to liberate a 66-million man strong country that actually needs liberation when you have 17 million stuck up South Vietnamese half-heartedly complaining?

Bah. The whole thing is FUBAR, and has deprived me of many a sleepful night. I'm going to go stand by the white house now with a sign that has the flag of texas shaking hands with the flag of Shaw-powered Iran. Maybe he'll listen to a fellow Texan, who knows.

[Admiral Lebron]

JediBoricua - Some friends of mine in Israel said that the main reason that Sharon made it to power now,was that a lot of Israelites want a leader who will end this conflict fast and as efficent as possible. Not someone who will draw it out and get nothing done but Israelies dead(I.E Netenyahu).

[Champion of the Force]

*scratches head* Are you saying that the shaw is part of the axis of evil?
No - sorry I had the wrong wording at the end. What I mean was that the coup of the 50s has helped lead to the problems of the 70s and since.

The government the US and Britain put in after the coup of the 50s was intended to be pro-western (obviously) but it only ended up destabilising the area which led to the problems of the late 70s.

If the US and Britain hadn't been so keen to protect their oil interests back in the 50s which resulted in the booting out of the democratic government (the type of government everyone says the West should be backing up) most likely all the occurences since would have been avoided. The country was peaceful and was one of the most progressive nations in the region until that happened.

Which serves as an example of why the West should be looking at why terrorists are flying planes into buildings and the like, rather than just bombing them into hell and thibnking 'That'll show them'. Because the West hasn't been the angel of the world, in fact they've been royally screwing some of these countries for years.

Thankfully it looks like we're starting to recognise and take responsibility for some of our previous actions - the attempts at putting in a working government in Afghanistan look to be well thought out with the long-term future in mind, rather than just throwing in whoever is going to be friendly for the time being. Good start IMHO. :)

[Jedi Master Carr]

I am sorry about mixing the Iranies with the rest of the Arab states, I actually know they aren't arabs but just wasn't thinking when I wrote it. As far as the Shaw goes I have never heard he was a good man, in one of my classes in school he was called a dictator who held the country under a tight fist (probably similar to Mubarich(sp) in Egypt) not saying that is a completely bad thing since I if the Pro-Western dictatorship fell in Egypt we would be in a mess.

[Darth Viscera]

It wasn't that bad. My mother lived in Tehran from 1952 to 1978, and is also an acquaintance of the Shaw's son, who lives in Silver Spring, like 10 or so miles away. ( he comes by every year around iranian new year, no big thing) Sure, there were laws against seditious speech, etc, but it was a far better place than it is now. *sigh* I just wish that the theocratic republic would come to a natural, rapid halt. I think it's currently in a Khrushchev-like state, only not yet admitting to destalinization. Rather, they're debating opening up.

[Master Yoghurt]

I tend to agree a lot with what Boricua said. David is also right about US historically having supported regimes and goverments that would later be proclaimed enemies.

I will just say, any leader who thinks it is a good idea using missiles, helicopters and tanks against schools and hospitals needs a strait-jacket. Bombing police stations, plowing up airstrips.. talk about counterproductive and nonconstructive. Sharon is clearly a provocative war agressor and must be replaced - the sooner, the better. Forget Barak or Netanyahu (another agressor). Since Rabin is gone, Peres seems to be the only one having some perspective about the whole conflict.

While we are at it, Yassir Arafat needs to either 1. be replaced, as he is far too controversial for Israel to deal with or 2. take an iron hard stance against terrorism, and act as such if he expects to be taken seriously.

In the short term, it is crucial a full cease fire is announced before the conflict escalates any further and Israeli forces pulled out ASAP, allowing the parties getting back to the negotiation table. Next step, a neutral third party (UN forces) is deployed in palestinian areas granted authority to arrest and detain terrorists. A strict weapon controll should be enforced.

One thing is for certain; Sharon's "shoot sparrows with cannons" tactic only serve to provoke. It is never going to be peace that way. You cant put out a fire with gasoline.

[Doc Milo]

While we are at it, Yassir Arafat needs to either 1. be replaced, as he is far too controversial for Israel to deal with or 2. take an iron hard stance against terrorism, and act as such if he expects to be taken seriously.

Yassir Arafat doesn't need to be replaced because he's controversial. He needs to be detained and tried as a terrorist, just like Osama Bin Laden (if we find him/if we find him alive) or any other terrorist. If the US is to be successful in our war on terrorism, we must identify and fight all terrorism. Not just the terrorism we pick and choose. This means terrorism all over the world, in Ireland, in Turkey, in Africa, even within the borders of the United States.

Arafat is a terrorist, not just a "controversial figure." He is the reason there is no peace, not any of Israel's leaders. He was given a chance to get 90% of his demands when Barack was in office -- and with Clinton here, who would have signed onto anything to secure some form of a legacy that didn't include a stained dress and a cuban cigar -- and he refused it. Arafat is not just a controversial figure. He is a terrorist that must be dealt with like a terrorist. I hope we continue this siege of his HQ, and eventually take him out or arrest him. Arafat should be a goner. He will never "take a hard stance against terrorism" because he himself is a terrorist.

[Jedi Master Carr]

I see that as highly unlikely because most of the world don't see him that way. For example the Arab leaders and the European leaders all sympathize with him and are against Israel more than they are against him. Really its more likely that Sharon will be convicted by the Hague of War Crimes than Arafat ever to be arrested and tried. I personally agree with Yog both leadership needs to be replaced, at the moment they are both bad lets get rid of them, and I have no problem trying Arafat as a terroist as long as Sharon gets locked up for War Crimes.

[JediBoricua]

and I have no problem trying Arafat as a terroist as long as Sharon gets locked up for War Crimes.

True. The leadership down there stinks and it should be replaced.

But I have to advocate for the palestinian people. They are being oppressed on their own land, they have no real autonomy, they cannot abide their own economical treaties with other countries (hmmmm, reminds me of something, oh yes, my own country, but I wont go there for now, I need a whole new thread for that), they have an unequal citizenship and cannot elect the officials that are bombing their refugee camps, their leader cannot leavfe the country, nor can any palestinian. They actually donated some of the land for the jews to return, and they are paid with invation, hunger and injustice.

It is really not hard to figure out why so many 20 year olds are willingly blowing themselves up for their cause.

[Marcus Telcontar]

Sharon doesnt want peace. And yes, he should be tried as a War criminal like NOW. He's just as evil as Arafat, maybe more so.

And a Huzzah to what Boricua said. It's true, the Palestinians mainly dont want to fight either. Give a man the opportunity to clothe, feed and shleter his family, to educate them and to be warm and safe, to have a job - that's what they want. They are being denied that by a hostile regime! Tanks against rocks! No wonder Palestinians are willing to die in suicide attacks!

Peace will only be achived when the men and women of Palestine / Israel can feel safe at night, knowing they have a free and secure future. It's not that hard to do, but these war mongers that are their leaders, they are the ones that want the fighting to continue.

As per usual, the fat assed bastages in their pulsh places remain unaffected, while inncoents die. How about Sharon and Arafat have a one on one death match. Lets see the leaders suffer as their people do.

[Jedi Master Carr]

It looks like it is getting worse here is a link to an AP report if anybody is interested
http://story.news.yahoo.com/news?tmpl=story&cid=586&ncid=721&e=1&u=/nm/20020403/wl_nm/mideast_dc_1291

It looks like it will widen into Lebanon, which worries me if Israel does something there Lebanon, and their ally Syria could respond by invading and bombing Israel northern cities, then there is Egypt which has not cut govt. ties with Israel which is huge. The problem there is Mubark is under huge pressure from the radicals and he could be ousted (and a worse regime could come to power in the process) if he doesn't do something. This situation is just getting worse. i think we need to send Powell down there to see if he can accomplish anything.

[Jedi Master Carr]

Things are improving slightly, especially after Bush's speech this morning saying he was sending Powell and also called for Israel to withdrawl from the West Bank, I just hope it all works but its impossible to say, it will be a waiting game now I guess. Hopefully, nothing happens before Powell gets there that will make things worse.