I need someone to check IPs

[ReaperFett]

The name Abomination. I am looking for someone important from TSE, but I think Im going to be requesting a ban.

[JMK]

Is this the info you need Reaper:

"The IP Address is: 62.6.252.26. The host name is: irb.lason.co.uk"

[ReaperFett]

co.uk eh?

[ReaperFett]

hes on now as a guest

[ReaperFett]

quick IP checks, and it doesnt appear to be Vega, Gav or Garrett. ANy other Brits known?

[Champion of the Force]

I did a trace on the IP via the admin controls and couldn't come up with any other users using that IP.

However I did run a trace on 62.6 and got these people:

DESIGNATE Ki-Baad 280
Master Yoghurt
The Abomination
Yoghurt

... however I think that search was probably too broad to be considered relevant.

[ReaperFett]

Norway is close enough to UK to be a possible. Thats the problem. We do in a way have a possible

[ReaperFett]

So you know btw, Lynch has got the same IP, and he posted at GJO, and DT nailed that one the same too. So, no scrambler

[Champion of the Force]

So you know btw, Lynch has got the same IP, and he posted at GJO, and DT nailed that one the same too. So, no scrambler
I don't quite follow - are you saying that it ws lYnch or that he's a possibility? :huh

And what exactly did Abomination post that was so wrong out of curiosity?

[ReaperFett]

No, Lynch has got an IP from somewhere, and matched mine and DTs(He posted there)


He posted TSE private forum stuff. Im saying no more on what though.

[Champion of the Force]

Ahhh, I understand. :)

[ReaperFett]

His time zone offset is +3 hours. ANy idea where that puts him Might be left from the previous account.

[Champion of the Force]

An anonymous user has now provided me with the details over what was in the post.

All I will say is that this is all bull -DO-NOT-SWEAR--DO-NOT-SWEAR--DO-NOT-SWEAR--DO-NOT-SWEAR-ing -DO-NOT-SWEAR--DO-NOT-SWEAR--DO-NOT-SWEAR--DO-NOT-SWEAR- load of -DO-NOT-SWEAR--DO-NOT-SWEAR--DO-NOT-SWEAR--DO-NOT-SWEAR-ing crap!

In almost 3 years at SWFans, I have never seen nor read anything so disturbing.

EDIT: And I am seriously hoping it is not all true. :verymad

[Charley]

I'm not sure whats worse. The infiltration into TSE, or the information that was stolen.

I didn't really think they were so militantly insane.

[TheHolo.Net]

:huh :huh :huh

[Champion of the Force]

Ogre - I sent a PM to your SWFans.Net account.

Be appreciated if you could reply ASAP. :)

[TheHolo.Net]

I replied.

[Champion of the Force]

I got it. Thanks for that. :)

[Champion of the Force]

Back to the thread in question - do we want to shut it down or move it here? Rama and Lynch have posted their own opinions on it. This situation can very easily spiral out of control if not checked.

BTW the thread I saw that helped spark off the present turn of events has since been deleted from the particular board.

[Charley]

Ogie can you get on AIM...wtf is this craziness?

[Charley]

Where's the thread in question?

[TheHolo.Net]

I really have nothing to say on it. I saw the thread at Irentios, and even though my name is mentioned in it several times, I'm in a state of who the frell cares. I don't know if its true or false, but judging from Rama and Lynch's reaction, I'm assuming it to be true, which to me really doesn't matter since I know full well that what was said about me and Dale is untrue.

Moving it here is probably a good plan.

[Champion of the Force]

I'm hopping onto AIM right now if anyone wants to discuss it as well.

[TheHolo.Net]

BigGreenOgre would be me.

[Champion of the Force]

Thread has been moved to here (it's titled 'Ooc').

[JMK]

Could someone PM me and tell me what this is all about? All I *think* I know is that Abomination said something or posted something he shouldn't have. Meesa lost... :x

[Dalethria Mal Pannis]

I am still in a state of shock to really go into it but echoed Ogre's statement.

That is all I have to say on the matter.

Could someone else PM JMK since I am going to bed soon? Isa gotta work ^_^

[Champion of the Force]

JMK - I'll contact you with the details shortly.

EDIT: I'll send one to you too Carr.

[Champion of the Force]

So ..................

Are there any plans to track Abomination? The posting of a private discussion from a private forum on a group's board may be considered a clear violation of our Infiltration rules (as well as everything else).

[ReaperFett]

DT was sure its a false IP. Following the trace got us to the accounts of a UK business. So basically, we have no leads at all, except he MAY be from the Kuwaiti time zone, or MAY be from Britain

[TheHolo.Net]

I have done all that I am able to try and figure out who this person is but have come up with nothing. From an extended conversation with Fewd/Morgan earlier today we think we may know who it might be, but we have no concrete evidence of that.

Morgan intends to contact the company who’s IP the poster came from to see if they have any logs of who (IPs) may have been accessing their equipment at the times of the postings. But that isn’t until Monday morning. I will keep you informed if there are any other leads in the meantime. As for the most likely suspect, as of right now it is Liz herself. But that is just a logical assumption based on what evidence there is, past incidents (even from before my time), and what motives may be behind this all.

[ReaperFett]

Just one thing I want to say. I doubt I need to, but just in case. If you have a copy of what was posted, dont show anyone who doesnt NEED to know. Its not for most to see, as it is secret. The only people I knew saw it was me, Ahnk and a Sith I asked about it(whos name escapes me right now)

[Champion of the Force]

If you have a copy of what was posted, dont show anyone who doesnt NEED to know.
I have a copy (provided by Lynch), and have supplied both JMK and Carr with one since they, as fellow staff members, have a right to know the severity of what was posted and what implications it may have had. I did attempt to explain the situation myself, but kept tripping up on the wording.

But that's as far as I would go. I wouldn't even dare give a copy to a normal poster.


As for the most likely suspect, as of right now it is Liz herself.
Liz as in Lady Mara Jade?

[TheHolo.Net]

Originally posted by Champion of the Force
Liz as in Lady Mara Jade? Yes. From what I have heard, she had a little to do with why the infiltration rules even exist (the past refrence), the contents of the post is very inflamitory in regards to her, (as well as doznes of others), and she could wish some retribution against TSE, and even those within Dale's Study because she was disallowed from the forum after only being allowed in it for approximately a week due to the fact that we learned that she was sharing information it contained (some of which completely out of context).

That more or less sums up the motives and reasonings behind our guess, but I will Stress guess, because that is all it is.

As for copies of the post, none have been shared to any other individuals by me at all, nor will they be.

[ReaperFett]

Dont worry COTF, mods and admins are another thing :)

[Jedi Master Carr]

Believe me Reaper I will not tell anybody what I saw, your secert is safe with me. Most of the names are only vaguely familar except for the obvious, so I am not sure I could expalin it anyway, still I sware I will not tell a soul.

[Shawn]

w... tf? Can't even take a break 'round here. O_o

[TheHolo.Net]

I received a PM from DT with the following contents:
Sorry to bother you, but right now I believe we are fairly close to being able to bring a charge of at the least account hacking against Lady Mara Jade. We're pretty certain she is Abomation (sp) and after some investigation, she could be banned simply for causing a lot of OOC troubles, which I now have recorded in AIM transcript.

Firstly though, this is an IP comparision. The Netblock is a class B and appears to be a Calif AOL server.

152.166.105.143 LIZ
152.166.166.109 LIZ
152.166.183.151 LIZ
152.166.96.250 LIZ
152.167.103.151 LIZ
152.167.121.37 LIZ
152.167.123.2 LIZ
152.167.126.94 LIZ
152.167.16.98 LIZ
152.167.17.11 LIZ
152.167.180.120 LIZ
152.167.20.100 LIZ
152.167.35.44 LIZ
152.167.38.225 LIZ
152.167.39.209 LIZ
152.167.44.99 LIZ
152.167.46.44 LIZ
152.167.46.61 LIZ
152.167.56.210 RAMA
152.167.66.198 LIZ
152.167.76.113 LIZ
152.167.76.175 LIZ
152.167.78.202 LIZ
152.167.86.40 LIZ
152.167.99.22 LIZ
152.167.99.65 LIZ
152.168.109.247 LIZ
152.168.120.251 LIZ
152.168.121.212 LIZ
152.168.36.120 LIZ
152.168.56.38 LIZ
152.169.106.93 LIZ
152.169.134.141 LIZ
152.169.142.196 LIZ
152.169.142.81 LIZ
152.169.148.51 LIZ
152.169.152.226 LIZ
152.169.154.16 LIZ
152.169.178.243 LIZ
152.169.179.29 LIZ
152.169.214.109 LIZ
152.169.229.38 LIZ

Rama has stated he has never gone near Liz, nor has he allowed her to use his account. I have also seen she has used Jeseth Cloaks account a fair bit as well. The reverse is not true.



What other evidence would be required to satisfy your mind she is the one driving most of the OOC arguments and she has most likely infiltrated TSE and likely GJO?

MarcusI asked for the source of the IPs and he stated it was from IP look ups of both Rama’s and Liz’s accounts at GJO. He says that it is evidence that she has been accessing his account and is asking for us to take action.

Should we proceed with banning all of her names and her email address?

This is a decision for the entire staff and not my call to make alone, but I am pretty convinced that it is what should be done.

[ReaperFett]

I agree with whatever you think greenman

[TheHolo.Net]

I have also found evidence, with Morgan's help, that shows that she and Jeseth have shared accounts as well. So it looks like the same question might should be raised about him. To be banned or not to be banned?

[ReaperFett]

Hmmmmmm, Jes is another thing. I dont know

[TheHolo.Net]

I spoke with Jedah about the issue in the stuff that was posted and removed from these forums as well as many other places. He had mentioned to me before that he had proof that Jeseth and Liz were conspiring to do as that stuff suggested. According to him word for word:
Wel what you saw is a good part of it.. But I also got a person who can testify that he was asked to be in this. Plus I got some people who might talk, and say and tell them what was going on, but its their word mostly due to them being there when Jes and Liz were talking on the phone, when Liz used the persons computer etc.He went on to say that he would see if that person would be willing to talk to us about it.

At this point we really can’t be certain whether Liz’s access to Jeseth’s account, or vice versa, was with consent, but the evidence as per her accessing Rama’s account is definitely something that was without consent, so the question of banning Jeseth in regards to this situation is much more vague in my eyes.

[Champion of the Force]

Well I've been in regular communication with Lynch and he did claim that Jes and Liz have been doing a few things together that may raise a few eyebrows. This account sharing business is some confirmation of that.

I say ban. However do we intend to announce it out in public or keep it quiet?

BTW Lynch and Rama have asked me (or anyone from SWFans) to keep them notified of what we may find out, considering it was TSE that was hacked into.

EDIT: Just read Ogre's reply. Jeseth's case should be handled seperately I think. He should probably be contacted, given the details of what we know and then be allowed his own version of events.

[TheHolo.Net]

It would probably be best if you or Fett were to keep them informed of our progress and actions decided, since it is my understanding that they think I am a part of this situation (the plot to take out TSE - Completely 100% false!). I think they would believe either of you much more so than they would anything I say.

After all has been decided, we should probably make some kind of announcement, but may want to consider carefully mentioning names.

[Jedi Master Carr]

Looks like we got a conspiracy on on our hands where is Oliver Stone when we need him :P Seriously I would say ban them to because the things they were doing sounds like they violate a lot of rules.

[Champion of the Force]

Update: Lynch has informed me that Liz has used the accounts of Alana Stormcloud and Dark Knight Soth which actually belong to other users. He has requested we don't accidentally ban those if we crack down on Liz's accounts.

[TheHolo.Net]

Seeing that Liz is an AOL user, an IP ban is impossible to do without affecting a pleathora of others. That being the case, if her banning was agreed on by the staff, I planned to do all her accounts and all her email addressess that I could find, since I know full well she has more than one.

[ReaperFett]

Couldnt we contact AOL and get her account shut?

[TheHolo.Net]

She has not broken any State or Internet laws that we can prove Fett, just our rules.

[JMK]

Yeah, that's what I was going to suggest in this case. Cut the problem off at the root.

[TheHolo.Net]

On what grounds could we have her AOL account shut down?

[Sanis Prent]

none whatsoever.

[Champion of the Force]

You might have a case in regards to the hacking of accounts and private forums (if she did indeed do that) but it would be hard.

Unless you could throw some child pornography in as well - that might help. :p

[Jedi Master Carr]

For that we could call in the FBI they liked to get involved in that.

[JMK]

Any ISP would kill an account of a user that abuses their net priveleges. I would assume this includes AOL. It seems to me that she's commited some pretty serious offences.

[ReaperFett]

This all froma Jed PM:


First is this bit I got from Renegade, he was asked to take part in the takeover by Jeseth and this was what he said on the matter.

Sith Renegade: My involvement and knowledge of the TSE takeover was/is somewhat limited. Essentially anything that was discussed with myself was only IC, in that Laran would take Vengence's remains, or something that belonged to him and then have Vengence cloned at the same facility as Mara Jade. Veng would then turn on Laran and join sides with the group and move forward with them to take over TSE. I decided otherwise and had other plans for Vengence and dropped out of the plan.

The following are direct quotes taken from both Liz and Jeseth plus a few other things that Liz leaked to one of the peeople who first helped alert us to the -DO-NOT-SWEAR--DO-NOT-SWEAR--DO-NOT-SWEAR--DO-NOT-SWEAR- she was pulling. I hope this helps. Unfortunately there was more but some of it has been lost. This however should prove enough there was a connection between Jeseth and Liz and both were in on a lot of -DO-NOT-SWEAR--DO-NOT-SWEAR--DO-NOT-SWEAR--DO-NOT-SWEAR-, overall the TSE counil is asking for action to be taken against Jeseth Cloak that in on par with the punishment Lady Mara Jade gets due to him targeting ACTUAL PEOPLE. If nothing is done at all this will be taken that some are not serious about punishing those who are responsible for causing grief OOC and look as if its just another questionable move by a group of people in power who too often help each other when others would be chewed out, particuarl those they RP with.

There will be more ino forthcoming from a person or too on the Jes/Liz situation also soon. Stay tuned for that.

Jeseth CIoak: Well, don't jump the gun. Taking over TSE will be a slow process.

Are you going to give up on the Morgana Dreada character then? AngelFromIego: Carlos will continue to RP Morgan

Jeseth CIoak: it's not really a take over... more of a destruction

;Morgana Dreada: not when I was talking to Carlos... he doesn't know your name

Name: so jeseths gonna wake mara to get the tse thing AngelFromIego: he's gonna try Name: and then you gonna go get it like a hostile take over and can I come to lol AngelFromIego: lmaooooo... AngelFromIego: you can come wherever you want. Name: so when he wakes mara you two gonna go attack the tse and take it over AngelFromIego: Yes AngelFromIego: at least I'm hoping to

God Of The Wired: Well, TGE is soon going to decimate TSE's military, I plan to strike at their members like Ram and Jedah God Of The Wired: *Rama

Darth Viscera: that is 3x more than TSE's fleet, with change to spare Darth Viscera: we have 60 planets, compared to TSE's 30-40, and billions of soldiers. Darth Viscera: their fate has already been written.

God Of The Wired: With LMJ by my side I don't think TSE has much of a chance, but like I said we have to be careful or it could all blow up into a big stupid OOC mess

Lady Nadia Raine: well I guess his character hates Jedah Lynch... and the Entire Empire

Lady Nadia Raine: I wants to watch TSE crumble

Lady Nadia Raine: well not so much. Jeseth Cloak actually does hate Jedah Lynch and wants him destroyed
Lady Nadia Raine: in fact he left TSO because of it
Lady Nadia Raine: then Lynch left TSO after TSO broke ties with TSE
Lady Nadia Raine: this was like 3 days ago

Lady Nadia Raine: that's not what he says. He just wants to get rid of the higher ups so it'll just fall apart

Lady Nadia Raine: without people like Lynch and Rama the Empire is nothing. Even with them it's nothing but both of them tend to bitch OOC to get what they want IC

Lady Nadia Raine: hey if you want to take over TSE though I can gather a ton of people to help us out

AngelFromIego: awwwwww... told Jeseth that he couldn't trust Soth. As a member of the Black Hand I can tell them not to trust anyone I don't think they should trust. And it's a known fact that Morgan does not really trust Soth

AngelFromIego: Carlos only wants to kill three people: Lynch, Dara and Rama
AngelFromIego: he leads the Empire

AngelFromIego: if you get rid of the three leaders then the Empire will crumble

AngelFromIego: and Jeseth has been attempting to kill all those three for months now
AngelFromIego: this isn't anything new
AngelFromIego: so I mean really... tell me does it make sense if we are going to kill Lynch why Soth would be involved or why we'd be able to trust him?

AngelFromIego: I have no problem with you being friends with Travis on IM... the problem I have is when you allow it to affect my RP

AngelFromIego: hmmmm... Carlos says that he's not trying to take it over, he simply wants to destroy it

AngelFromIego: I told Jeseth not to trust Jim because he listens to Lynch too much

;AngelFromIego: I think he wants an excuse to be pissed. He's done this before. I didn't do anything that was out of character for Morgan. He needs to learn how to seperate the game from reality

;Lady Nadia Raine: this whole TSE thing... I don't know if there's even going to be a single thread. Aside from all these rumors I haven't heard anything about it.

;Lady Nadia Raine: he wants us to join TBH I think. That's got nothing to do with this TSE thing though

Lady Nadia Raine: yeah he does but he's not going to take it over. He just wants to kill the council members so it will crumble

Lady Nadia Raine: at least that's what he said tonight Lady Nadia Raine: unless he's not telling me the whole truth

Lady Nadia Raine: I'm not sure what Jeseth has planned. He seems to want to bring Mara back but I don't think it's to take TSE over... to be honest with you I think he's doing it to piss Lynch off Lady Nadia Raine: he wants to kill Lynch IC


;Lady Nadia Raine: I'm at a total loss as to where these plans for taking over TSE are being done
: u havent been in there yet
Lady Nadia Raine: I went in there once but I didn't have enough time to look around. And everytime I try to scroll down a page my damn computer freezes on me lol
: is calos still callin all the time
Lady Nadia Raine: he called me earlier today

: u still talkin to mortanius is he ever gonna post
Lady Nadia Raine: well the freak is always on away
Lady Nadia Raine: I should call his ass and chew him out
: the thred is dyin
Lady Nadia Raine: I know

God Of The Wired: I don't know yet. She wants to be a part of it, but I don't know how to include her in it yet

God Of The Wired: I need to find a way to work it in, since the new direction the RP took is really different and doesn't involve the coven, so I'm going to need to talk to her some more and work something out with Liz that will work

Hurmm..So tell me, how will Mara help you in the long run? God Of The Wired: IC she'll probably try to destroy TSE, which is good, and overall Mara is just a realy cool character and I would love to be able to RP with Liz more often

;God Of The Wired: I know that, but Martin doesn't want to have them at odds with TSE
God Of The Wired: And the Coven is his group, right?

God Of The Wired: The Empire would welcome your help. Jeseth isn't mounting an porganized campaign, he's only out to kill a few select members of TSE

God Of The Wired: He's a good friend of mine, he's very trustable

Subj: Fwd: convo with martin Date: 12/21/2001 12:48:26 AM Pacific Standard Time From: AngelFromIego To:

Subj: convo with martin Date: 12/20/2001 11:56:34 PM Pacific Standard Time From: Voiceless Drone To: AngelFromIego

Jeseth CIoak: ;;nods;; I understand. Maybe we can work something out that would work for both of us. the thing is i don't really think IC that Jes would want to try to steal a piece of the remains from you guys, since he thiks the coven a alot like the Dark Jedi at TBH too
Saurronnn: well if saurron were to allow her to be brought back attacking the tse with her etc would really make saurron look the fool
Jeseth CIoak: so it would be out of character for him to try to steal a piece of the remains... maybe so that TSE doesn't blame you for anything, one of my apprentices could pocket like a finger or something? then it's not really like you guys gave the remaisn to me, and i didn't directly steal them
Saurronnn: so dna is what you need
Jeseth CIoak: dna would work, yeah
Saurronnn: not the whole body
Jeseth CIoak: if i can take just a piec,e like a finger or even a hair, that would work
Jeseth CIoak: so it won't need to look like you handed them over to me
Saurronnn: hmmm.....
Jeseth CIoak: then the blame would be on one of my apprentices, and not even me. heh
Saurronnn: heh
Saurronnn: well in jedahs eyes it would be on me for sure Saurronnn: i hope so i mean i hate to let liz down and she could just have her chr come back really ...but i dont mind rping its just that her and him had some issues and he is not happy about this whether you two mess with the tse or not lol
Jeseth CIoak: yeah. =/ he shouldn't have such a cow. besides, he should seperate OOC and IC. IC he'd never trace it back to the coven
Saurronnn: well do you have any ties with tse?
Jeseth CIoak: What kind of ties?
Saurronnn: like access to comps
Jeseth CIoak: Not really, why?
Saurronnn: i mean it seems that a dna strand might be kept somewhere
Saurronnn: or even at the coven
Saurronnn: you might not have to pilfer any of the body
Jeseth CIoak: I don't know much about the coven IC. Maybe one of Liz's characters that's there could help me out?
Jeseth CIoak: She could come and I'll somehow find a way to convince her to retrieve a DNA sample for me
Saurronnn: hmmm....

[TheHolo.Net]

If this is the proof that Jedah mentioned to me before, I'm not very inclined to find it very valuable. It looks like bits and pieces of IM convos, and emails. but none look complete or do they include timestamps. and the formatting suggests editing by someone along the line.

The content does not contain anything that I would consider a banning offense. Most of it looks to be IC planning of other character’s deaths. Such planning isn’t against the rules as far as I know, and if it had been carried through all Rma, Jedah or Dara would have had to do was say that they did not consent and that is all Jes or Liz could do, because their consent is in the rules.

If we are supposed to use this as evidence I believe first of all we will need entire conversations, not bits and pieces taken out of context. It needs to be unedited, and with the inclusion of timestamps. Even then snippits of IM convos and or emails sent in such a manner can still be edited, which make them pretty flimsy proof, but its about all we can do I suppose.

With the IP evidence we do have I am completely behind the motion to ban Liz in all her forms, but as of yet have no evidence that damns Jeseth as have broken any rules.

[TheHolo.Net]

A small addition to what I just said that just occurred to me. Around the time of the formation of the RSO, Lynch myself and several others were IC plotting the death of Itala Marzullo. Does that mean we should be banned too?

[Champion of the Force]

I agree that the evidence isn't going to very useful, especially considering that all these plans never ever devloped to their final stages.

I think for now the best we can do is ban Liz in regards to hacking into TSE and posting private information from their board. Anything else will probably need further information on.

[JMK]

Please pardon my oversight here, but what do the following abbreviations mean? I've been reading all this stuff only to get lost along the way. :p

[TheHolo.Net]

RSO = Rogue Sith Order
TBH = The Black Hand
TSE = The Sith Empire
Coven = The Coven

All roleplaying factions/groups.

[Charley]

I would also deem that this "evidence" is insufficient to do anything to Jeseth. IC plotting is innocuous and can't be used to prove OOC motive. Its a blurry line, and there's just nothing conclusive.

Oh and one more thing.


If nothing is done at all this will be taken that some are not serious about punishing those who are responsible for causing grief OOC and look as if its just another questionable move by a group of people in power who too often help each other when others would be chewed out, particuarl those they RP with.

I don't like being threatened, especially by a spineless punk who's a heartbeat away from being investigated himself. He's treading on some thin ice.

[ReaperFett]

its a TSE vview I believe, not just Jed

[Charley]

Its a TSE view...because he says thats how it is.

[ReaperFett]

people do have their own brains you know

[JMK]

Thanks. Also, what is IC (internet chat?) and AIM? Are all these roleplaying groups part of swforums? I would assume yes otherwise why talk about them, right? :)

[Champion of the Force]

Thanks. Also, what is IC (internet chat?) and AIM? Are all these roleplaying groups part of swforums? I would assume yes otherwise why talk about them, right?
AIM is AOL Instant Messenger.

IC stands for In Character (ie. talking whilst in character).

[TheHolo.Net]

JMK:
IC = In Character

Fett:

I don’t wish to incite an argument here, but from what I saw in the stuff that abomination posted, Lynch makes many an assumption which he deems as fact and the rest of the TSE members seem to go ahead and go with what he said, as if it is fact.

I know for a fact that the people in Dale’s study were never plotting the downfall of TSE or the death of Lynch, Rama, or Dara, yet the majority of TSE appeared to believe what Lynch had said.

I don’t know whether or not what Abomination posted was factual or not, but I do know from first hand experience as a former member fo TSE that Lynch seems to have all kinds of “secret” contacts that tell him “confidential” information (bordering on infiltration) which he often takes out of context and claims means something entirely different, then proceeds to post about it as if it were not just here-say but indeed fact.

He makes it sound as if there is some grand scheme between myself, Shawn, LL, and Dale to run this board as “we” see fit, when the fact of the matter is “I” have always tried in every way to make it so that the “community” is responsible for the rules and way this board is run.

That is the very purpose of the responses I have given in this thread. I’m not dictating anything to anyone, I’m sharing my opinions and discussing things with people trying to come to a logical and thought out decision as a group. I am not the tyrant he tries to make me out to be and I really don’t see any proof of that anywhere.

[Champion of the Force]

We all know you're not a tyrant Ogre, and that you and everyone else in the staff has worked to the best of our abilioties for the benefit of the board.

In my communications with Lynch, Rama et al I have avoided being judgemental of anyone, instead preferring to remain neutral in the matter.

I do think though that the staff's actions over the past couple of days have 'redeemed' some staff members in the eyes of some posters, showing that we are all trying to work everything out for the benefit of the community. I have made no secret that Ogre, Marcus and other people who were linked in this 'conspiracy' have been working towards sorting it out, and Lynch in particular seems very grateful of that.

I wouldn't worry too much of that comment above about how if nothing is done that the staff will automatically be condemned. Lynch has already PMed me apologising for the comment and citing his own understanding of how we've got to judge best based on what we have.

[TheHolo.Net]

Sorry for my rant. I suppose some of my stress over what I saw and trying to deal with this situation is starting to come to a head. Thanks for the reassurance.

[Champion of the Force]

I have informed Lynch of our present activities, and in particular stressed that our planned action against Liz was in relation to the posting of private information from TSE as well as potential hacking. I did this to seperate the idea of banning Jeseth as well considering the actions he's been accused of are not involved with it. Anyway here was his response:


*Nods*

Well I'll take your words and listen to them for now. So I suppose all I can say again is thanks on the matter. There is suppose to be one other thing was getting to show the connection between Jes and Liz, a first person account but would that do any good?

I dont want to bother the person anymore than I have if this will not add up to much.

If you wish I can have that be held off for now.
Would a first person testimony be any help? I personally think it won't be - it'll be just one word against another IMHO.

[TheHolo.Net]

Originally posted by Champion of the Force
Would a first person testimony be any help? I personally think it won't be - it'll be just one word against another IMHO. I agree, one person’s word against another, not hardly valid proof of anything.

EDIT: Though it may not be a bad idea to have so if we were to get several people’s stories then compare and see what is the same we might could believe it as truth.

[Champion of the Force]

I got Lynch's response back.

He's probably going to hold off on asking the individual for thier account, seeing as by itself it probably won't be of much help.

However he once again seems agitated. Somehow or other he's gotten word that some of the staff are making bad comments about TSE behind the scenes, and as such he's just fed up with the whole thing, thinking that outside of Liz no further action will be taken at all.

He's told me to talk to Rama should I wish to further pursue this matter.

[TheHolo.Net]

Originally posted by Champion of the Force
However he once again seems agitated. Somehow or other he's gotten word that some of the staff are making bad comments about TSE behind the scenes, and as such he's just fed up with the whole thing, thinking that outside of Liz no further action will be taken at all. O_o

The only place I have seen such comments from the staff are here in this thread, from LL and myself. Does that mean someone here is telling him what is being said? Smells to me like he is up to his own "infiltration" thing, which is no surprise.

[Champion of the Force]

Here are his exact words:


... Plus with everything going around I heard how some of the mods and perhaps one admin are bitching in some circles about TSE itself if not myself and others so I no longer believe them to be crediable nor will help us in any true way other than nail Liz but thats it.

Once more the clique factor is there.

And overall I'm just too frusterated to deal with their BS anymore or reconize their authority personally at SWfans from this point on. If they got a problem with me I'll deal with you and Fett but they can go take their whining hypocritical righteous selves as far as I'm concerned and shove it.

[TheHolo.Net]

I'll let the other staff members reply to this and see if we can figure anything else out. But as of right now, I am still of the opinion he is getting such information through questionable means, which could easily be labeled as infiltration. I for one know he has a very thick past in doing such things with posts that were made in private forums ranging from Itala's former TSC locked forum, GJO's Avalon, TSO's Secret Sith Chat, Dale's Study, and probably others.

It might be a good idea to ask him for his source and see if he skirts the question, which is his usual method of operation in such things.

[Dalethria Mal Pannis]

:: shakes head ::

You know, I would really love to know how Lynch would say how noble and lovable TSE is if TSE was the one bashing him and saying that he was going to take over their board. Have I been unkind in my thoughts about them since seeing this? Um yeah .... but then when the facts came out about Lady Mara Jade... obviously we all have been played very well due to all this.

Am I not allowed to be pissed off and completely saddened to read such allegations when posted for all to see? I am a human being afterall which is why I made sure to be calm after a few days cooling off period before making my post in what to do with Lady Mara Jade and Jeseth.

Which of course still stands even after reading this. I need more proof about banning Jeseth then some IC plot to RP out TSE being destroyed. EVERYONE has done that more or less in the RPing community -_-

No one is innocent on either side of this OOC mess and it is a complete mess. I wish Lynch would realize, as some at TSE, I want nothing to do with them when I hear things like this, or see things like this. All I want for them is to RP and do what they like and will help them in whatever capacity is needed HERE.

-_-

Not too much to ask is it?

[Champion of the Force]

I have sent a PM back to him. I stood behind the staff's performance, stressing how hard everyone has been working on this and asking him to state his sources in the matter.

[Champion of the Force]

Update: I've received Lynch's response.

He specifically asked me not to reveal his PM to anyone else so I won't repost it here, however he did mention at least '3 people' have informed him of these matters.

He didn't reveal any names or even how they have come across this information - Lynch states he himself doesn't know, but only that the people who told him this he considers 'honest'.

[Dalethria Mal Pannis]

I give up... I really do :|

[TheHolo.Net]

Originally posted by Champion of the Force
Update: I've received Lynch's response.

He specifically asked me not to reveal his PM to anyone else so I won't repost it here, however he did mention at least '3 people' have informed him of these matters.

He didn't reveal any names or even how they have come across this information - Lynch states he himself doesn't know, but only that the people who told him this he considers 'honest'. Yep, fits his typical method of operations to a "T".
Originally posted by SWFans.Net
It might be a good idea to ask him for his source and see if he skirts the question, which is his usual method of operation in such things.

[Champion of the Force]

I've just gotten another PM from Lynch.

He's dropping any further action. He thinks it's probably not worth it and it's probably getting bigger than it ought to.

[TheHolo.Net]

So he realized he stuck his foot in his mouth then? Trying to keep his own rear out of a sling it sounds like to me.

[Charley]

Sounds about right.

At any rate, I figure I know where the leak might be. There was a discussion in GJO's Avolon, and people were talking about the general knowledge (none of the admin secret side) of the Abolisher77 (or whatever) incident. People were all putting their 2 cents in, and I stated that while the leak was awful, I thought the obviously slanderous remarks contained within to be woefully inappropriate. Perhaps I let my tongue wander a little too much, I guess...but I figured it was innocuous and had to be said.

Considering I told Lynch that aside from mod/admin requests he was never to speak to me again, I guess he coulda taken it badly.

But me and Daley both interjected as such there. Nothing big, but Lynchey is renound for making Everests out of anthills, and Avolon is as airtight as a knit sweater.

I'd bet mondo pesos that Aura may have let on to our personal feelings. She's his apprentice at TSE, and new enough to generally be naive to the severity of that.

But thats 100% speculation, not very important, and as Rhett Butler says "Frankly my dear, I don't give a damn!"

[Pierce Tondry]

"The things that occur while I'm out of touch at the edges of known space."

I keep finding that quote more and more useful. All praise Tim Zahn for its' creation! (Except Fett, who wouldn't praise Zahn even as a joke. :))

I find it amazing that, over the last several months, all major disturbances have come out of or otherwise involved TSE in some way and no one has really said anything about that. Every time it's the same thing- something happens with Jedah, Dara, and/or Rama at the wheel. Feelings are hurt, the Admins and Mods have to maintain control in order to protect their own reputations, and in the end, people just let everything drop until the next wave occurs.

One of these days, I think someone ought to drop the hammer on Lynch with a nice, fat, counteraccusation that he's deliberately stirring up trouble and let things take their course.

Another thing I am whole-heartedly for is to adopt a policy of getting a SWFans admin or mod access to the secret forums of other groups. I even have a valid counterargument ready should anyone not like the idea.

I think I understand a little better why Dav dropped the roleplaying gig.

Anywho- if I knew the exact nature of what was said in the mystery message, I'd probably be inclined to comment, but I think it would end up being a waste of time anyway.

Kudos to you guys for keeping the home fires burning without letting them turn into a flame war! :)

[ReaperFett]

Except Fett, who wouldn't praise Zahn even as a joke

I liked Karrde, Paellon and Bel Iblis :)

[Pierce Tondry]

Good boy!

*Throws Fett a Scooby Snack.*

[Champion of the Force]

I think I understand a little better why Dav dropped the roleplaying gig.
Actually it had nothing to do with politics or anything else. Just real life and a general growing disinterest in continue moderating at the time.

But anyway, I'll just make this comment.

You all talk alike.

You do - really.

Lynch, Ogre, Marcus, Dara, Rama, LL, Pierce, Firebird, Skip the dog etc etc etc.

You all talk almost exactly the same. Just have to change the names of the person doing the talking and people you're talking about and you'd be hard to spot any difference.

And everyone wonders why things keep going around in circles.

Perhaps it's time some people tried to step OUT of that circle.

But maybe I'm just a dreamer.

[Dalethria Mal Pannis]

Unfortunately... when you want to try and talk Dav.... people automatically assume you are up to no good and nothing gets solved.

Trust me ... I really WISH it was how I first started when I had no problems with anyone. Board nutsies cloud everyone's judgement, including mine... but I try hard to ignore it but it ain't easy.

I dunno, I been shoved around alot since things got bad that I am at a I don't care point but if some people would actually like to bury the hatchet... I would try.

Just seems no one wants to talk feh ... If this was in your face real life none of this would happen -_-

[Sanis Prent]

Which is why the best peacemaker on earth is a six pack and some free time.

[Champion of the Force]

Unfortunately... when you want to try and talk Dav.... people automatically assume you are up to no good and nothing gets solved.
But that's not what I meant.

Look at the Dara thread of mine. As soon as I posted it people were already saying 'Oooh, she's trying to undermine us' blah blah blah and everything else.

The I've talked to members on the other side of the fence and it's the same story again - 'Ooh there up to no good. That thread closure is really an attempt against that poster' blah blah blah.

You're all feeding off one another with all these assumptions. One side is nearly as bad as the other.

Perhaps if some people tried to drop the attitude things might pick up in some areas. However maintaining such pessimistic attitudes and trying to make assumptions or second-guess every little thing that goes on will never get you anywhere.

[Dalethria Mal Pannis]

No I know what you say is true as well. Everyone, both sides are bitter from everything.

But I still meant what I said. I am always willing to bury the past if others want to as well. Just in the past, at least with me, I tried so hard and was in the middle of everything actually, between side A and side B.

For a long time I tried to ignore it and be peacemaker but then i was thrown into I was out to get them as well -_-

So... now blah >_< :lol

I try and keep my hopes up but that there is just alot that went down that makes no sense and I guess it is still fresh. Especially with recently occurred.

[Champion of the Force]

No I know what you say is true as well.
Good. :)

[Dalethria Mal Pannis]

:p

Glad we agree :lol

[imported_Eve]

Wow, I just read this whole thing.

Would it be possible for me to see what was posted by Abomination? I'm just curious, but I understand if peeps don't want me to see it.

This whole thread... to cut to the chase -

Is Liz guilty of infiltration? Looks like it it me (so we have the banning thread).

Does IC stuff matter? No, never did.

Is Lynch guilty of infiltration? I say yes. He admits to it daily. No one but him seems to be aware of conversations in secret forums, and if they are they chose not to use it elsewhere. He does, and that is infiltration.

It doesn't matter how he obtained the information - he did. He furthermore uses it as his personal weapon. This is against the rules. Frankly, I don't know why he has gotten away with it so many times. If we ban Liz then he should be banned as well. Liz at least, never confessed her acrued (sp?) knowledge. The proof is in all the PMs and conversations where he "relays" what other people have told him.

Do we ban people for infiltration? Yes.

You guys forget something sometimes. This isn't the United States government. This is a privately owned board. Some of the things you will do will piss people off. If, as the staff, we chose to do something or take action in one way or another, based on OUR rules, no one has a word to say about it.

We are fair, and we tolerate alot of stuff, almost too much stuff, at the risk of being unfair. If we ban these two, what happens? Yeah it pisses Rama and Dara off. So what? You break the rules, you leave. They don't like it, they can leave too.

I can tell you one thing - we start taking more action in these matters you will see a lot less OOC arguments and negative rumors flying around. I for one, wouldn't miss it.

For the record, Dara and I, and Jedah and I get along fabulously. They both can be very fair and very pleasant when you're on their good side (but aren't we all that way?). I obviously don't RP, so please don't group me in this old battle. I am out of that circle.

I think we haven't banned Lynch because we're afraid of what TSE peeps will say? Who the hell cares?!? You break the rules, you get banned. People will try and work the system and take advantage of you. Lynch is VERY smart - he knows as long as he never reveals his source, or his way, no one can ever condemn him. So how long will you let him slide through the cracks of our rules? He will continue.

Either way, this behavior promotes negativity at this board and distracts people from its purposes (fun, fandom, and discussion). That's enough for me.

[TheHolo.Net]

Originally posted by Eve
Would it be possible for me to see what was posted by Abomination? I'm just curious, but I understand if peeps don't want me to see it.I can PM you a link to a copy of what was posted and will.

I also agree that Lynch is guilty of infiltration and proved as much with his PM to CotF in regards to the information he said he had heard about the staff bashing him. I know for a fact that there have been many other instances where he has used “sensitive information” procured from locked forums for his own personal ammunition/attacks.

If it were to happen (his being banned for infiltration) I suspect the cries of “conspiracy against him” from the staff would probably multiply and start coming from a good majority of the senior TSE members, but honestly, how can we sit here and ignore facts that he has presented time and time again? He is guilty of infiltration and should not be exempted from the rule because of worry that there will be a public outcry.

It is the biggest sin in our community to infiltrate and use information for your own gain, and he has gotten away with it time and time again. If we continue to let it happen without reprisal it is only going to worsen and other people might start claiming his example as the means for their exemption too.

[Shawn]

Just one quick thing, Dave: The reason why I, personally, feel that Dara does nothing but attempt to undermine the staff is plain enough: No less than 95% of her OOC posts here have been attempts to brings the staff's collective authority and judgement into question. Aside from occasionally welcoming a new person (which constitutes the other 5%), the entirity of her posts are vieled or not-so-vieled jabs at the staff.

Perhaps I am biased in this opinion. Perhaps I just happen to only see these particular posts, and am away when she posts contstructive, helpful information. But based on the evidence I have seen, that's certainly how she appears to me. I do not hate her, nor harbor any real personal grudge against her or any other poster, for that matter (well.... maybe Fett. ;)). But I grow utterly sick of having to defend myself every time I close a thread, make an official announcement , or otherwise try to go about my job here. It's why I've (several times) tried to drop the entire role and just be a normal poster. And, if the truth be known, I keep taking that role back up because I like having a say and I like trying to make this board more and more successful. I'm not the best at what I do - I'm not even very good. I just try my hardest to make a difference around here.

[Champion of the Force]

I would like to post a nice big thing on my own thoughts, but I don't have time.

I will say however that Jeseth has PMed me back and has asked that we take action against TSE, and says he is willing to provide evidence.

I'll let everyone mull over that whilst I try to handle the sirdizzy situation in SW Films.

[TheHolo.Net]

On the matter of action against TSE as an entire group I think more information would definitely be required.

As it stands (IMO) there is only one individual whom I have seen proof of breaking rules. I have already spoken as such regarding that individual in my backing of Eve’s own thoughts and stated as much in this very thread at least once previous to Eve having her say, so there is no reason for me to repeat it.

[Champion of the Force]

Firstly, I have forwarded Jeseth's PM to me to you Ogre (SWFans account) so you can read it for yourself. I haven't replied to him yet but would be happy to if we want his info.

Secondly, regarding action against Lynch and perhaps other members of TSE. If you feel it's for the best then go for it, but make sure you've got all your facts and figures ready for the inevitable backlash it will cause.

I really must emphasise that because in his PMs to me Lynch has regularly alluded to:

1. Being setup for infiltrations when he was never involved.

2. Double standards being applied by the staff (don't ask me where - that's what he said) depending on who was involved. A few references were made to past incidents (again I don't know where) where he feels certain TSE members were prejudiced against whilst other posters guilty of similar actions have been handled lightly.

... so if any action is to be taken it's going to have to be fully backed up and also be prepared to answer allegations of double standards (it doesn't matter if there were any or not - clearly a number of members think there has been and we must be ready to answer).

I wouldn't rely on Lynch's comments to me as evidence of infiltration - it's a bit wishy-washy and other posters have said similar things to myself and probably other members of staff (eg. 'Oh some posters here are a bit unhappy over this issue' etc etc etc - Lynch's comments the other day seemed to be in line with that). The REAL evidence lies in his comments that were posted by Liz in the public arena - THAT is where you can go from.

I might also suggest that some outside opinion (to be kept totally private of course) be gathered to see what some people outside the staff (since we're supposed to be double standard tyrants :) ) think about the situation. It might help us determine the best course of action.

But yeah - if you want to take some action then go ahead.


The reason why I, personally, feel that Dara does nothing but attempt to undermine the staff is plain enough: No less than 95% of her OOC posts here have been attempts to brings the staff's collective authority and judgement into question.
Whilst it can be annoying it can easily be recitified by simply ensuring we are moderating in a consistent manner that can easily be backed up.

I don't need to tell you how much fun it was replying to Dara's claims of inconsistency over those 2 threads with a 'But they're both closed - where's the inconsistency???' statement. :D :D :D

[Darth Vader]

Yes, I believe Lynch is an infiltrator and should be banned.

However I don't know if we should take his second-degree confessions as the catalyst.

He's obviously a rampantly paranoid person, and whether he's actually getting inside information or just fabricating stuff to fuel his crazy suspicions...I don't know.

The incident a while back with liz leaking info out of the study which was given to Soth's sis, which was given to Soth, and which was given to Lynch is a hairy situation, and all we have for that are email and AIM transcripts, and Lynch's continuing confessions of 2nd hand infiltration.

I'd say ban him, but I really don't know where it ends.

[TheHolo.Net]

Originally posted by Champion of the Force
I will say however that Jeseth has PMed me back and has asked that we take action against TSE, and says he is willing to provide evidence.I say go ahead and ask Jeseth to see what evidence he can provide.

[imported_Eve]

Ogre, I don't see the post by Abomination there. The first post is Lynch's.

As far as Lynch goes - put him on trial. Do it in public if you want, so people can watch the following:

Let him know that he is under the limelight, and he is being accussed of infiltration into several locked forums. Our basis being that he has, on several occasions, disclosed information that he did not have access to, and used it to further his negative ooc argumentation and paranoia.

If he can PROVE that he didn't personally hack into any closed forums, by providing us with evidence otherwise, then he may defend himself against the following:

Right now, we have the sum of several PMs, AIM convos, and posts that show him stating that he has information gained from access to closed forums. At no time, did he disclose his source, nor how he obtained the information. He is the ONLY person who has been doing this.

Whether he actually hacked into the private forums himself, or not, he has been an accessory to infiltration (as he has used the information for his personal gain, not to mention embelishing facts and taking what he has seen out of context to further his own agenda).

1 - To VIEW text from a private forum is to take part in that which is against the rules.

2 - To QUOTE text from a private forum is to display infiltration on some medium (or promote it), or to show or promote that you have been an accessory to infiltration.

3 - To USE text from a private forum is to have information that you would not otherwise have, violating the privacy of a private forum, and thus breaking the rules of infiltration.

4 - Text from a private forum or conversation can not be used as evidence for anything, as it was obtained illegaly or in a manner that is against the rules. Remember: even people allowed in a private forum are not allowed to disclose what happens within that forum elsewhere.

If he can take back all of the PMs, the AIM convos, and the posts, and if he were able to say that he hadn't opened his big mouth, then he wouldn't be guilty. He can't do that, but we can give him a chance to.

If he can honestly argue that he hasn't infiltrated or been an accessory to it, then he can stay. He won't be able to.

---------------------------------

I'm not afraid of any backlash. The worst that happens is we frustrate the posters who are in the wrong, and they leave, letting us FINALLY go about our business here.

This battle is old. We could argue that the sky is blue to people like Rama, Dara, and Lynch, and just because we said it, we'd get a backlash.

We have sufficent evidence to hold that Lynch is guilty of infiltration. If some posters deny that because they don't like us, then we don't want their kind here anyway.

If you're all afraid, I will personally deal with Lynch. I will be responsible for the whole sha-bang. I see the outcome to the oncoming battle (with the same old bitch and moaners) as great for SWFans.

Otherwise, go ahead and make all your private forums open, because what is the point anyway.

[ReaperFett]

Dont do anything to Lynch yet. Let the first problem die before you go an start something that will cause far more problems

[TheHolo.Net]

Originally posted by Eve
Ogre, I don't see the post by Abomination there. The first post is Lynch's.That the post Abimination made at Irentios. It looked like a copy and paste from another thread, which TSE has admitted in their OOc forum was taken from the Sith Only forum, that they have now locked down completely.

As for proceeding with charging Lynch with infiltration, I for one agree with it.

[ReaperFett]

I disagree, because there is as much evidence on him (that Ive seen) as there is on Jes(maybe even less), so to then go and ban him seems stupid.

[Dalethria Mal Pannis]

The only problem with banning Lynch is this. It won't stop him from getting his information or getting information from locked forums. Since he has all his sources and won't say how he gets this information, banning doesn't really solve the problem but of course, banning is the punishment for inflitration.

I do agree with Fett though. We just had one huge problem with Lady Mara Jade.... Maybe we should wait a bit and get everything together that proves Lynch was indeed inflitrating.

Ah, I just thought of another problem besides the obvious TSE being angry.... Ogre was giving sensitive information from a dead board now where Lynch, Dara, Rama and gods know who else posted at.

It was in AIM where there was a post giving to Ogre about Lynch bashing me and him. Ogre showed me the conversation without the name of the AIM handle that was used so I could be prepared for Lynch asking me what happened. I told Lynch what was said and that Ogre was the only person to see the AIM handle. Lynch talked to Ogre and gave him all the information far as I know.

I say that because as soon as I told Lynch what I knew I washed myself from the entire situation.

I only bring this up since Lynch might used this against me and Ogre eventhough we did tell him, unlike Lynch, the name used in AIM and what was given to us.

Course, the string of events might be a bit weird since it happened awhile back but I think I got the general story right :p

Stupid random AIM and OOC BS gotta love it -_-

[imported_Eve]

Forgive me, but if we (as a mod and admin staff) aren't being consistant, then we deserve all the bitching and paranoia. I have wondered why no one does anything about it. If this is why Lynch will get away with it, I don't want to hear anymore bitching about him or anyone. I brought up Lynch being banned here, but I still hear bitching about him all the time.

Maybe we should all disclose our closet skeletons, so I can know when we will and won't hold people accountable for breaking the rules.

[Dalethria Mal Pannis]

No ... I was bringing it up to everyone here incase he brings it up so that way the entire staff knows about the situation and aren't thrown a curve ball.

I will stand on what is decided and of course agree about Lynch inflitrating. It was me that PMed Dav and Sanis about the whole stupid mess with Lynch to begin with before I was made a mod again.

[Champion of the Force]

Forgive me, but if we (as a mod and admin staff) aren't being consistant, then we deserve all the bitching and paranoia.
That's the reason why I'm hesitant over any action. Although Lynch hasn't hidden the fact he has some sources here and there where he shouldn't, he's made it perfectly clear one of the main reasons he resents the staff is due to some staff members having done similar things as well as let other members get away with similar actions in the past.

If we're going to get serious on handling problem posters then we've got to ensure that the staff itself or any of its buddies aren't contributing to the problem.

But anyway, I'll PM Jeseth back asking for any info he has. Might as well get all the info organised at least.

[imported_Eve]

Well if Lynch is no better nor worse than the staff, this issue is mute.

Anyway, happy easter kids!

[TheHolo.Net]

I have not been guilty of using infiltrated information to go around trying to soil anyone's reputation, unlike how Lynch has several times. There was the one instance that Dale just mentioned, but the only people who know anything at all about it are Dale, myself and Lynch. I never used the information to try and smear anyone's name. I just approached him about it to find out if it weas truley what he thought.

I'd really be interested in hearing his claims that others have been allowed to infiltrate or whatnot. I suspect it stacks up about as well as his reasons for wanting Jeseth banned.

[TheHolo.Net]

I really do feel strongly that someone who admits that he is trying to sully the reputations of others is nothing but bad for this community.

[Champion of the Force]

I have PMed Jeseth for further details on what he has.

As I stated above, I have no problem with taking any action agtainst Lynch or any other TSE member if the staff feels it is warranted. Just ensure that all the facts and figures have been compiled but most importantly be prepared for the inevitable backlash and possible claims of corruptness and double standards which must be defended against if the staff wishes to maintain any respectability in the matter.

[Shawn]

I don't need to tell you how much fun it was replying to Dara's claims of inconsistency over those 2 threads with a 'But they're both closed - where's the inconsistency???' statement. But that's precisely my point - it's as if she goes out of her way to find something to harass us about. In this case, the staff hadn't gotten around to closing the second thread yet, and so she saw it as some sort of favortism. Yes, it can be easily defended - but it's still annoying to have to do so on a regular basis.

To get back on subject for a minute... The problem with Lynch is actually similar to the problem we had with Itala: Everyone knows he's breaking the rules, but providing soldi evidence is another matter entirely. He's directly quoted things from Irentios' locked forum. He's complained to me about how I roleplay in the Coven's locked forum - Neither of which he has access to. But without concrete evidence of his presence in these places, it's just going to raise a big stink if we attempt to take action.

[imported_Eve]

Well I guess it comes to how you define infiltration folks. As you can see above, I defined infiltration (or what I think it means), with my four points. If you go with my interpritation, then Lynch is guilty (and I think you all agree with that). Problem is: that is not exactly defined here. We'll never get people like Lynch (slide-through-the-cracks-infiltrators) out of here without defining EXACTLY that his type of behavior is considered infiltration, and they won't get away with it, simply by protecting sources.

If you agree with that, then maybe you want to modify the policy on infiltration, and present the revised version to the people. We can say that we are doing this to help prevent ooc negativity (since we are), and to better define infiltration. Also present a warning, that from this day forward, anyone doing as such will be condemned as an infiltrator and banned.

I think that's what we're running into here: a undefined policy. Break down what infiltration is, and start from there.

Lynch will know that what he is doing is considered infiltration by the staff, and either he'll stop pestering us with information he is not suppossed to have, or he will be banned.

This all, if you agree that having private information that you shouldn't have and using it, is the essence of infiltration. I do.

[Sanis Prent]

thats a great idea. We don't have to bust him for past offenses and such, but he would be on notice from that point on.

Very good idea Eve.

[TheHolo.Net]

I think a posting/reminder of the rules of infiltration (being it is the one rule that can lead to banning, besides trolling) is a good idea for both those who are veterans and those who are new is a very good idea.

[ReaperFett]

can I reccomend you DONT allow replies, because you know someone will start stirring otherwise

[Dalethria Mal Pannis]

Refreshing memories is a good idea but Fett, you need to have replies I think :\

For someone that is new and has questions, they deserve to be heard, unless you say PM one of the staff.

All well and good but if you allow for replies, things could get hairy. You don't allow for replies, still could get hairy cuz some might think we are not letting people be heard.

Either way yuck IMO so might as well have replies. Besides, as long as we take a stand on what we decided inflitration is, like Eve said, Lynch won't be banned yet but would know we are on to him, which is what Dav said I believe. Either way, the law has been spoken and so it shall be :lol

Kinda like peeps will start with a clean slate IF they did anything and afterwards, well, not like we didn't say we told ya so :)

[ReaperFett]

WHy would anyone complain? The thread is to remind people. All replies would do is give people the chance to take potshots and the like

[Champion of the Force]

I think that's what we're running into here: a undefined policy. Break down what infiltration is, and start from there.
That won't work unless you get all the boards to comply. As I stated in the other thread every board has its own little varitation on them.

If I recall correctly we're up to Version 3 on the Infiltration rules at the moment. Yet some places like GJO etc. I think are still on Version 2 or even earlier.

There was even a brief discussion last year or abandoning Infiltration rules entirely and just allowing boards to come up wit their own, with SWFans serving as a backup. It received some support but was never implemented.

If you get everyone to comply then that's a great idea. However until you do it's not going to make too much of a difference IMHO since each board would just say 'well we don't follow SWFans' criteria' and you're back at Square 1.

I think you should allow replies to the thread, because I think it is an area that needs to allow discussion.