What makes you a Jedi?

[darth_mcbain]

Ok, maybe this is really stupid, but it was something I was thinking about last night and wanted to get some other opinions.

In ROTJ, Luke claims to Yoda "Then I am a Jedi".

To which Yoda replies "Not yet. One thing remains. Vader... You must confront Vader. Then - ONLY THEN a Jedi will you be."

My question is this - does Yoda intend to mean that you are only a Jedi when you are actually confronting the Dark Side and at no other time? Or does he intend to mean that once you've confronted the Dark Side, from that point on you are a Jedi?

I know it sounds dumb, but I can't help hearing it - when Yoda says that only then will you be a Jedi, it makes it seem like being a Jedi is some sort of existential thing based on the situation you're in - that no matter how hard you've trained, no matter how many battles you've had, no matter how strong in the Force you are, you are not truly a Jedi unless you are actively confronting the Dark Side.

Any thoughts on this?

[sirdizzy]

no i think luke had already faced the drak side and lost to it once but won the second time (in the cave and on bespin when he chooses death instead of the drak side)


i think the whole confrontation with vader is because he was having conflicts.... he had to resolve the conflict within himself and find the calm core that makes a jedi and he could only do that by resolving the conflict and facing vader

[Figrin D'an]

That's an interesting interpretation of the meaning of being a Jedi... given Yoda and Obi-Wan's flare for riddles in the original trilogy, one might have to wonder about it... :D

I guess I always interpreted it this way... Luke, despite that he had faced Vader once, still had yet to confront his fear. Perhaps, before his first encounter with Vader, he simply feared the sheer power of the man that he was about to face. Later, however, Luke had to somehow learn to cope with the truth of his lineage... Luke still feared the truth, and Yoda knew this. Yoda wanted to make it clear that until Luke had faced his most intense fears and conquered them, he could not truely be a Jedi. Luke accomplishes this in two key instances... First, before he is 'captured' and brought to Vader, Luke acknowledges to himself, and to Leia, that Vader is their father. (This is more difficult that the actual converstation with Vader in which Luke accepts his parentage.) Second, when Luke defeated Vader in combat, he was forced to face his fear of the Dark Side. When Luke fought Vader that second time, Luke used his rage to fuel him during the battle... he touched the Dark Side, at first without realizing it. It was at this point, just after the battle, that he resisted. He teetered on the edge of the falling to the Dark Side, but he managed to pull himself back. Luke then realized what Yoda had meant all along... that it wasn't about the physical confrontation with Vader... it was about confronting fear and resisting temptation. The moment Luke cast aside his sabre, and refused to kill Vader.... he became a Jedi.



IMO, of course.... :)

[Doc Milo]

I believe Yoda is saying much the same as what Obi-Wan was telling Luke in the RotJ novelization, after Yoda's death.

In that, Obi-Wan tells Luke that to be a Jedi, one must face, and move past the dark side. This act, this moving past the dark side, symbolizes that they have controlled the things that would have them turn. I believe as part of the "trials" a Jedi is tested so that he would face his own weaknesses, the things that would make him turn to the dark side, and then he has to move past them.

In the cave on Dagobah, Luke fails. He embraces his hatred and uses it to defeat the Vader aparition. He can't move past the dark side -- he falls to his weakness. On Bespin, he is able to control his anger and emotions. He does quite well in facing his dark side. But he never moves past it. Instead, after Vader tells him that he is his father, Luke doesn't face that part of him, he doesn't face down that "weakness." Instead, he chooses to run (well, literally, fall away, but it's metaphorically running) and thus although he has faced his dark side, he still hasn't moved past it.

(Notice in each of those scenes, Luke is facing Vader -- either the aparition in the cave, or the real Vader -- this is because Vader is symbollic of Luke's dark side.

So, when Yoda tells him he's not a Jedi yet, that he must face Vader again -- it's because on the two previous times he failed. Once utterly, in the cave, by giving into his dark side, and once because incompletely, because although he faced his dark side without giving in to it, he still did not get past it, instead choosing to run from it.

In RotJ, Luke is again faced with Vader. This time, he faces his dark side. Temporarily gives into his anger, but then controls himself before stepping over the line. He faces down the anger inside him, he faces down his dark side, then moves past it. This is symbollic in his tossing away of his lightsaber. He is now going to trust in the Force, let it guide his actions -- something he was unwilling to do in the cave ("What's in there?" "Only what you bring with you." "Your weapons, you will not need them." He brings his anger, and his weapons... unwilling to trust the Force in the cave) and something he refused to do when he ran on Bespin; instead of trusting the Force to guide him past the dark side on Bespin, he runs. But in the last scene, he tosses his lightsaber aside, turns from Vader and faces the symbollic "dark side" in Palpatine (Vader symbollic of Luke's dark side; Palpatine symbollic of The Dark Side itself) and tells him that he failed. That he is a Jedi. Palpatine responds, "So be it, Jedi." At that proclamation, Luke is a Jedi.

So, rather long winded, but the answer, I believe is because Luke, before that point in RotJ, when speaking with Yoda, had not yet passed the "trials" -- he had not yet faced and moved past his dark side. He had faced and given in; he had faced and run from; but he hadn't faced and moved past the dark side. He doesn't do this until the final battle in RotJ.

[Jedieb]

I tend to believe one becomes a Jedi once he's faced the Jedi trials. However, special circumstances may dictate that different Jedi face different trials. Luke had to confront Vader, Obi-Wan confronted and defeated the Sith who killed his Master. Other Jedi may face a more traditional set of trials, but every once in awhile a Padawan may accomplish a feat so extraordinary that he is granted the status of Jedi Knight by the council. In Luke's case, he didn't need the council simply because there was none.

[Jedi Master Carr]

I concure with your opinions I though he was a jedi right after he threw down his lightsaber after he confronted the darkside and his fears.

[JMK]

I would have granted him Jedi status after he told Leia he was her brother. I mean think about it, would youtell someone as fiery as Leia that you were siblings after you had made out with her a few times? I sure as hell wouldn't! :lol

Seriously though, good thoughts here. I always believed that a Padawan becomes a Jedi after he confronts and defeats the dark side, both within himself and in battle. If a Padawan faces down his darkside in battle, but gets his head chopped off in the process, I would think twice about granting Jedi status.

[darth_mcbain]

Yeah - these are all very good thoughts. Honestly what I put forward before (you are only a Jedi while confronting the Dark Side) didn't make a whole lot of sense to me, but it was something I was thinking about, and now every time Yoda says "Only then a Jedi will you be", I can't un-think it. I must unlearn what I have learned...

I think what you've all been saying here is correct - that in order to be a Jedi you must face the Dark Side and move past it, and from then on you are a Jedi.