Hey Jon

[CMJ]

Did you still want that list of 20 "offbeat" or little known movies to see?

[Dutchy]

*sees 20 "this or that movie SUCKED and is the WORST movie EVER" topics ahead*

[CMJ]

LMAO Dutchy...probably 15. :P He and I do agree about half the time I think..maybe a bit less.

[Dutchy]

Originally posted by CMJ
LMAO Dutchy...probably 15. :P He and I do agree about half the time I think..maybe a bit less.

He and I agree about 5% of the time I think. "agree" is a rare word in our talks. :)

[CMJ]

You and I agree alot too Dutchy...I think I just see more movies than you though. ;) and Jonathan for that matter(though now that he has that site he may see as much as me).

[Mu Satach]

I'd be interested in that list CMJ. :)

I like movies like that.

[Dutchy]

Originally posted by CMJ
You and I agree alot too Dutchy...

Sure thing.


I think I just see more movies than you though. ;)

Well, at least you see 'em earlier than me, that's for sure. :)

Anyway, please post that list. Curious what movies you'll put on it.

[ReaperFett]

Me too :)

[Jedieb]

Yet another plea for CMJ's list of "Obscure-but-thought-provoking-films-guaranteed-to-elicit-a-75%-negative-reaction-from-Jon."

[JonathanLB]

Well, considering CMJ and I are the only people here who have seen Gosford Park, Amelie, and Monster's Ball, I don't think anyone else has a right to comment about my negative reviews of them. The movies sucked. I have no doubt that most normal moviegoers would feel the same way. I know my dad hated Amelie too, my sister hated Monster's Ball, and Gosford Park was just boring, you can go find a few great reviews of how boring it really is. Terrible film.

Dutchy, hehe, I don't think you will be too interested in my movie review site, other than perhaps as a way to say, "Well, if he liked it, I won't see it," or "Wow he hated this movie, must be good," lol.

CMJ, I would still like to see the list, yeah definitely, but I just cannot guarantee I will get to it immediately. I want to start my AFI project soon, see all of those movies and review them, then move on to other films by May 1, so that's roughly when I would want to go through your list, but I'd love to have it now, err, I mean soon...

I doubt that I would hate most of them, come on, lol. I am usually not that hard of a critic to please, I just happen to like good, entertaining movies, and I don't care for boring ones. I like films of all types, genres, and time periods, but they have to be good, obviously.

I think I see just as many movies as you now, CMJ, though you're a bit ahead of me on the art house side because I gotta get to In The Bedroom. Still, I've seen basically every new release in theaters right now. This is my full time job here for a while so I had better have seen more than anyone else, at least of the new stuff. :)

[Dutchy]

Originally posted by JonathanLB
Well, considering CMJ and I are the only people here who have seen Gosford Park, Amelie, and Monster's Ball, I don't think anyone else has a right to comment about my negative reviews of them.

I saw Amélie, really liked it. Not was much as some do, but quite a remarkable movie. Gosford Park opened here yesterday and I'll see it one of these days. Monster's Ball I WISH I could see. It's not even on the list of upcoming releases.


The movies sucked. I have no doubt that most normal moviegoers would feel the same way.

I am usually not that hard of a critic to please, I just happen to like good, entertaining movies, and I don't care for boring ones. I like films of all types, genres, and time periods, but they have to be good, obviously.

To me it seems you basically only like mainstream movies. It's rare for you to rave about an offbeat film.

So you don't seem to like all types and genres, more just several.

You especially don't seem to like human interest or drama films or with sexual content.

[CMJ]

I actually think I'm a tougher critic than you Jonathan..we just happen to find different movies worth our time. Obviously our tastes cross over alot...but then again, you find merit in a film like "Tomb Raider", while I find merit in "Monster's Ball".

The older I have gotten the more my tastes have shifted towards the critical establishment. I actually think the more films people see the more they drfit that way...of course that is a generalization...but I find it to be true. I know MY tastes have evolved dramatically over the years.

This is not to say of course I can't enjoy the occasional thrill ride movie. I could provide numerous examples of films of that genre I like...but the older I get..the fewer "good" ones I find out there.

*********************

Man...everyone wanting my list of "forgotten films". It makes me think people actually care what I think...like I'm respected or something. It kind of makes me feel honored..thanks guys. I'm trying to make the list have a few different styles of films..and I know I have included a handful of big(ger) movies, that amaze me because of how many people HAVEN'T seen them.

This list is in no particular order...like I said it includes some films I'm sure you've heard of but might not have seen..AS well as films I'm sure you have neither seen or heard of. ;) There's more where this list came from too. :P I tried to be careful and make sure MANY different styles/genres/types as well. Enjoy....:)

The Big Lebowski (Coen, '98)
The Wedding Banquet(Lee, '93)
Heavenly Creatures(Jackson, '94)
Gods and Monsters(Condon, '98)
Red Rock West(Dahl, '93)
Empire of the Sun(Spielberg, '87)
Ran(Kurosawa, '85)
Badlands(Malick, '74)
The Right Stuff(Kaufman, '83)
In the Company of Men(LaBute, '97)
Dead Calm(Noyce, '89)
Witness(Weir, '85)
The Thin Blue Line(Morris, '88)
Tucker(Coppola, '85)
Days of Heaven(Malick, '78)
The Nasty Girl(Verhoven, '90)
The Usual Suspects(Singer, '95)
Stray Dog(Kurosawa, '49)
Before the Rain(Mancheuski, '94)
Hilary and Jackie(Tucker, '98)

[Jedieb]

I've seen a few of those and I've enjoyed most of them. The Usual Suspects and Witness being my favorites on your list. Here's how I'd rank the ones I've seen:

Excellent
The Usual Suspects(Singer, '95)
Witness(Weir, '85)

Average, but still liked them...
Tucker
Empire of the Sun(Spielberg, '87)
The Right Stuff(Kaufman, '83)
Dead Calm(Noyce, '89)

Want to see
The Big Lebowski (Coen, '98)
Ran(Kurosawa, '85)
Badlands(Malick, '74)
Stray Dog(Kurosawa, '49)

[Jedi Master Carr]

I am not sure if I would like any of those films (I mean the ones Jon has hated) maybe In the Bedroom (which I know Jon has not seen yet so he might like that one) which I will probaby see eventually it looks interesting but Gosford Park looks boring to me. I am not into British stuffy comedies, heck I'm not into most foreign films which is why I dobut I would like Amellie, french films are the worse for me, 1/3 of them make no sense , another 1/3 are bad comidies that make some American films look good (there are a lot staring Jean Reno and Geruard Depardui, can't spell his name) and the rest are just sex romps (not necessarly saying that is bad :rolleyes but anybody could do one of those so I don't think those are high quality films) Amelie looks to be the former, as far as I can tell. Really its weird I like French history but hate French culture (at least recent French culture, at least the last 100 years or so) but most of there stuff just doesn't make any sense to me I am sure there are a few good movies maybe historical films but I don't think they ever make it to the States
Then there are some really bad ones like that Joan of Arc POS film that was awful, I watch it and and left the room my former rooomate was watching it, it had awful acting (Milla Jolvianic(sp) and completely changed around things, (the king was 30 years older than he was suppose to be John Malchovich played him and he is in his fifities, Charles V was in his late 20's when Joan came to him and he was not very bright. Then they changed different battles all around and none of that made any sense, then there was the fact that the director made it looked like that Joan was nuts because she saw here Sister raped and killed when she was child, she had no sister as far as we know and I think it would have came out in the trial if she had one that raped and killed, everything got revealed in those trials and we have the transcripsts so it would be in them (they didn't leave things out the Church wrote everything down that is why we know so much about Medieval Life) and what happens the film wins the French Oscar this shows that they are messed up a movie that got ripped in at the states and every critic hated gets lifted up in France like that (which is ironic because it makes a mockery of their patron saint and state heroine) Sorry when I ever think of french films that one comes to mind and that is why I think I detest French Cinema.

[CMJ]

Man Jedieb..."The Right Stuff" is one of my all-time faves. :P How dare you say it's JUST average. ;)

I'm kidding..to each his own..but it IS one of my all-time faves. Of course I enjoyed all the films I put down though...otherwise I wouldn't have included them. :)

I highly recommend all 4 of the films you wanted to see but haven't yet. :)

[Figrin D'an]

My favs from CMJ's list:

The Big Lebowski - great film. I know a lot of people hated it, but I found it quite amusing.

Heavenly Creatures - maybe Peter Jackson's best film (well, before LOTR that is. ;) )

Gods and Monsters - Best performance that Brendon Fraser will ever give in his entire life. Ian McKellan was incredible in this film... his character (James Whale) was so tragic.

Witness - Love this film. Harrison Ford at his best, although I still am partial to his performance in The Mosquito Coast.

The Usual Suspects - Keyser Soze... 'nough said. :)
Seriously though... I think this still might be Kevin Spacey's best performance, even better then 'American Beauty'.



Some of my other favs I'd put in this category:

The Mosquito Coast - This film is so underrated, IMO. Like I said before, this is Ford's most compelling performance. It's a great story though, as well.

The War Zone - Extremely distrurbing film because of it's subject matter... like Fight Club, except 10 times worse... it's one of those films that is hard to say 'I liked it' afterward, but it is a very powerful film... it's very straight foreward with it's topic and leaves nothing to ambiguity... not easy to stomach, but emotionally powerful none-the-less.

Life is Beautiful - I know this one was an Academy darling a few years ago, and some people found out about it that way... but, I still find so many people that haven't seen this film. Such a unique and powerful way to tell the story of the Holocaust.

Little Shop of Horrors (1986) - No offense to Moulin Rouge, but this film was the real "revival of the film-musical." Based on a bad-B sci-fi movie from the '60 and the off-Broadway play that became popular in the '80's, it's has the upbeat fun of a musical and the cheesy sci-fi elements that so many of us love. It's funny, irreverent, and oddly touching...

The Apartment (1960) - I'm sure with the abundance of film buffs on this board, everyone has seen this one. However, so many people around my age (mid 20's) have no clue about this film, even though it won the Oscar for Best Picture. Maybe it gets lost in some of the other "Best Pictures" of the 50's and 60's, but it is still one of my favorite films. Watching Baxter (Jack Lemmon) trying to survive his job, deal with the 'popularity' of his apartment and find love at the same time makes for great humor, but creates very real characters at the same time. One can't help but root for Lemmon's character throughout the film. I guess this pick as one of favs is consistent with my choice of 'Casablanca' as my favorite all-time film... :)

[CMJ]

As I said Figrin...I could have listed movie after movie...:)

I had a feeling "Usual Suspects" would be one most people saw...but it surprises me how many people HAVEN'T seen it.

Yes...The Mosquito Coast is really underrated as well. It's been some time since I saw it...but I remember it as being very powerful.

Really..you guys should check some of the films out that you haven't seen. ;)

[Dutchy]

Here are my Top 25 more or less off beat and lesser known movies, in order.

1 Show Me Love (F*cking Åmål, 1998)
2 Life is Beautiful (La Vita è Bella, 1997)
3 Amores Perros (2000)
4 Sling Blade (1996)
5 Funny Games (1997)
6 The War Zone (1999)
7 The Celebration (Festen, 1998)
8 Happiness (1998)
9 No Man's Land (2001)
10 Requiem for a Dream (2000)
11 Beautiful People (1999)
12 Billy Elliot (2001)
13 Once Were Warriors (1994)
14 The Ice Storm (1997)
15 Together (Tillsammans, 2000)
16 Boogie Nights (1997)
17 The Red Violin (Le Violon rouge, 1999)
18 The Dreamlife of Angels (La Vie rêvée des anges, 1999)
19 Election (1999)
20 Flawless (1999)
21 Lola rennt (1998)
22 Ghost World (2001)
23 You Can Count On Me (2001)
24 The Man Who Wasn't There (2001)
25 The Sweet Hereafter (1997)

[CMJ]

Well those weren't my TOP ones...just a well rounded lit. ;) I loved "Requiem for a Dream"..the most anti-drug film ever made.

You have some other good ones on ther as well...and I have to admit you have a few I haven't seen too. ;)

[darth_mcbain]

There are some good movies listed here - I'll have to watch them, most are ones I haven't seen.

I did see Usual Suspects, and I have to say I wasn't all that impressed with it. It was okay, but some of my friends hyped it like there was no tomorrow that it was the greatest cinematic event of our time, and that just kinda soured me on it.

I haven't seen the Mosquito Coast in a really long time, but I too thought it was very good and an underrated Ford movie.

And Figrin, I LOVE Little Shop of Horrors. Cheesy - yes, but still a good flick.

Thanks for the recommendations - this will make for some good viewing...

[Jinn Fizz]

I'm glad to see all the positive comments about The Mosquito Coast...I definitely consider it to be one of Ford's most underrated movies. Yes, it's not at all the light escapist entertainment that people were used to him making at the time, but it's well worth seeing and experiencing. :)

[ReaperFett]

Not seen many of them :)

Mine would be:

Hard Boiled
The Killer
A Better Tommorow
Way of the Gun
Boondock Saints
El Mariachi
Leon/The Professional
Braindead/Dead Alive
The Limey
Out of Sight
Evil Dead 2
Army of Darkness

[JonathanLB]

Reaper, that is a kickass list :)

CMJ, I will get to those films you mentioned, in fact many of those were ones I have wanted to see but, you know how it goes, I have a small rental store nearest to me that carries almost, seemingly, only new releases and they didn't even have The Wizard of Oz!! LOL. But there is a bigger store just the opposite direction, they should have a great deal more I think.

I really, really did not like The Big Lebowski. I saw it with a few friends, heard how good it was before that, but my friends were mostly pretty drunk. They apparently liked it, although I thought it was horrible. It wasn't funny at all, for one, and second it just bored me to tears. I was about to fall asleep the entire movie. Oh well, just not my type of film.

Dutchy:
"So you don't seem to like all types and genres, more just several. You especially don't seem to like human interest or drama films or with sexual content."

I love drama films. What would you call Shawshank Redemption or The Truman Show? Both are two of my favorite movies, and what is The Game? Action?! Hmm, I wouldn't call it action. Drama/Thriller perhaps. I love dramas, don't be silly, but as far as "human interest," I would have to get a clarification for what exactly you mean, like examples of films that fit that description. Anyway, nobody likes every genre and every type of film, or at least not equally, and I haven't claimed that I do either, but I do give any movie a chance if I hear it is good, regardless of what type of film it is, what the budget is, no matter. I always will give something a chance. That's all any reasonable critic can do. No critic can guarantee he/she will enjoy films from one genre that isn't particularly appealing, but he/she can continue seeing the best films of that genre and at least giving them a chance.

I obviously like sci-fi movies better than I like romance movies, for instance. That's just obvious, and probably 99% of all guys are the same way, or maybe 99.9%, I dunno, but close enough. Then again, I will still see an obvious chick flick like Legally Blonde or like Clueless and I gave both films very high marks because I thought they both represent the best of their genres and both were very enjoyable. Although, I think Clueless is a bit, uhh, nasty in a few ways, but Alicia is super hot, hehe. I think Legally Blonde is actually a better film, but that's the minority opinion, obviously. Nonetheless, both films were critically acclaimed.

Also, I don't doubt that you are a harsher critic than I am, CMJ, but I don't pride myself in being a harsh critic. If anything, I would rather be known as a more reasonable critic who loves a good, entertaining blockbuster, instead of some damn boring guy who only likes really weird movies for the sole reason that they ARE weird and offbeat. That is, by the way, the corruption of most critics. They lose their sense of fun with movies, they don't seem to enjoy anything, so instead of just seeing movies to have a good time and enjoy themselves, they are not impressed at all with anything that isn't entirely different and original from everything else ever done. Of course, really, there may be a reason why something has never been done in a movie, and that reason is often that it simply makes for a boring/lousy film, thus most of the movies that critics love the most are actually the worst films. Nonetheless, they want to see something new, something different, and that's why those films get high marks. I cannot find any other explanation.

I am with Jedi Master Carr here, and anyway, there is no shame in not being a stuck up critic who only enjoys weird art house releases. There's nothing wrong with recognizing what an awesome movie The One is, for instance :)

I loved Tomb Raider, but obviously nobody would accuse Tomb Raider of having a great plot or great dialogue. Clearly, it did not. It had a decent plot that served the action well and it had average dialogue, but that doesn't mean it was a bad film. It was really enjoyable, even if it was perhaps fairly forgettable.

I agree with Carr that French cinema is horrid. It's definitely one of the worst countries for movies without a doubt, although I'm not much into British cinema, they have many, many talented actors and actresses and they are still skilled filmmakers, it's just that I don't really have a huge list of English movies I really like. I probably haven't seen a whole lot either, though...

French films just are VERY weird. I took French for about 12 years, technically, but seriously only for about 7, and we had to watch a lot of French movies or movies in French, so I had to see some weird French releases and they just were horrid most of them.

I liked Jean de Florette, I liked its sequel, Manon of the Springs, I thought both were just quite obviously good movies, really funny in parts too, the first is better though. Still, Amelie was just horrid, too boring for me, really not an interesting film at all. I don't go to the movies to be bored to tears.

[Jedi Master Carr]

Those two French Films are pretty good, maybe there are some good French films but most of the ones I have seen aren't. I would imagine the French versions of Cyrno De Berginac(sp) The Count of Monte Cristo and The Three Musketeers but most of them you can't find in video stores so it is hard to really judge them then, I think Blockbuster must like to send out the terrible art house french films and that is it.:D Actually I have thought of another one Le Femme Nikita is not a bad movie though Besson's camera should be taken away for making Joan of Arc the Messenger:x

[Dutchy]

Originally posted by JonathanLB
I love drama films. What would you call Shawshank Redemption or The Truman Show?

Those are not typical dramas, or at least not the ones I'm talking about. I'm talking about, let's say, social studies. Movies that don't primary aim to entertain, but to get the viewer involved on an emotional level, which is not even a goal, but a result, if the movie is good.

Examples: Boys Don't Cry, Magnolia, Secrets & Lies, My Left Foot, and 80% of those 25 movies I listed.


I love dramas, don't be silly, but as far as "human interest," I would have to get a clarification for what exactly you mean, like examples of films that fit that description.

I guess movies like The Insider, Erin Brockovich, A Beautiful Mind, Ghandi, Traffic or The Straight Story are examples.


Anyway, nobody likes every genre and every type of film, or at least not equally, and I haven't claimed that I do either, but I do give any movie a chance if I hear it is good, regardless of what type of film it is, what the budget is, no matter. I always will give something a chance.

Well, give those 25 movies I listed a chance then. :) Did you see any of them? What did you think of them?


French films just are VERY weird. I took French for about 12 years, technically, but seriously only for about 7, and we had to watch a lot of French movies or movies in French, so I had to see some weird French releases and they just were horrid most of them.

Which ones did you see, for instance? How many European movies do you watch, by the way?

By the way, for me movie is emotion, in any form. What is it for you? Does it reach beyond entertainment (being entertained is a form of emotion too)?

[JonathanLB]

Ok Dutchy, I promise you I will write those films down now, copy them to a notepad file actually, and I will try to see them over this summer. I said try because I just hope I can find the films I want to rent. I know that I will even have trouble finding all of the AFI top 100, but I'll make every effort to do so even if it means going 40 minutes to get them, lol. If it comes to that...

Carr said:
"I would imagine the French versions of [Cyrano De Bergirac]..." Yes, actually that was a very good movie. I saw that in French class too and I enjoyed it, hehe, pretty cool movie actually. I had forgotten about that.

See, the French have some good movies, it's just very tough finding them because the critics are not giving proper reviews. There needs to be someone who sees them and says, "Nobody is going to like this movie except the critics, so don't see it," and who can tell us all what French movies are ACTUALLY GOOD, not just weird and therefore automatically deserving of a four star rating, lol.

Dutchy, I really liked Traffic, but I have not seen The Insider yet. I heard it was very good, that's another movie I want to see badly. I thought Traffic was overrated, personally, because it wasn't what I considered one of the top ten films of the year, but I gave it 3.5 stars so clearly it was a film I considered very good, it's just that I saw many films that were better and I thought the hype of it being "the best movie of the year" was just, uh, not accurate. I mean, the film is just nowhere near Gladiator in quality or style.

As for what I see in movies, that depends on the movie. Some movies are purely entertainment, though I normally will not award four stars to any film that is only entertainment; it has to have deeper messages or insights to get the full four stars. Unless it is just simply the best type of pure entertainment I have seen, or the highest quality. I gave Men in Black four stars because I think it was superior work, an excellent blockbuster that was entertaining throughout. But something like Independence Day gets 3 to 3.5 stars (I need to see it again, hehe) because it was just too unoriginal really.

I have always used the saying, "The best movies aim not only to entertain, but also to inspire," but I think that goes for all works of art, including books, paintaings, music, etc.

The Star Wars movies are quite inspiring, for instance, and you take a film like Braveheart or Gladiator and those also have an impact. There are many movies that are quite inspiring, but considering how many films are made, it's an extreme minority.

[Jedi Master Carr]

I admit there are some good ones its just that like you said they are hard to find, I think there should be a Foreign Films channel to put all of these films on it.

[Mu Satach]

Ahhh... the Big Lebowski...

"Is this your homework?" :D :D :D :D


Cool lists... though I must admit Reap's has the highest percentage of already seen for me. :) followed closely by CMJ's Dutchy's having the most I've never even heard of.

Lots to keep me busy. :)

I'm glad my local video store has almost everying under the sun... they even have 3 copies of Tromeo & Juliette. :x

[Master Yoghurt]

Hmmm.. some rather good movies actually. Fett's list is in particular rocking. I guess me and him have a similar taste for movies. If you really want to see something out of ordinary, check out Braindead. Seriously messed up and funny. Splatter movie from no other than Peter Jackson.

Dutchy; most of those, I have not seen, so I cant say too much. However, I would disagree on your number #1 choice. Although it was interesting, I found it an average experience, and there are better Swedish movies out there. IMO, your #2 choice, La Bella Vita is a better movie on many levels.

Might think about it a bit and post a list of my own.. :)

[ReaperFett]

Reaper, that is a kickass list :)

Cool lists... though I must admit Reap's has the highest percentage of already seen for me

Fett's list is in particular rocking
And to think, some say I have no taste :)

[Charley]

No, just a one-track-genre mind is all.

And not all movies in that genre ARE good cough*fromdusktilldawn*cough

[ReaperFett]

Army of Darkness and Way of the Gun are alike? How'd you figure that? :)

[Mu Satach]

Yeah? And don't be knockin my man Sex Machine. ;)
hehhehehe... :lol

[JonathanLB]

If anyone says you have no taste, they are morons. Just don't listen to people like that :)

You cannot beat a great John Woo film. Only a total idiot would think that his Hong Kong films have no plot, but really The Killer's strongest asset is not the great action and unbeatable gunplay, it's the interplay between the two main characters, the guys that is, and the film's dramatic conclusion. I really enjoyed the music too, actually, but that's a superior film on every level.

Dang what a cool movie, hehe.