Takeoff!!!

[Marcus Telcontar]

http://a324.g.akamai.net/f/324/3126/1d/www.f1-live.com/photos/2002/melbourne/diapo_305.jpg

[HaeLari Draevyn]

lol How did that occur? O_o

[Lady Vader]

Holy crud! O_o

How did it DO that?????

[Marcus Telcontar]

http://a324.g.akamai.net/f/324/3126/1d/www.f1-live.com/photos/2002/melbourne/diapo_301.jpg

http://a324.g.akamai.net/f/324/3126/1d/www.f1-live.com/photos/2002/melbourne/diapo_302.jpg

http://a324.g.akamai.net/f/324/3126/1d/www.f1-live.com/photos/2002/melbourne/diapo_303.jpg

http://a324.g.akamai.net/f/324/3126/1d/www.f1-live.com/photos/2002/melbourne/diapo_304.jpg

http://a324.g.akamai.net/f/324/3126/1d/www.f1-live.com/photos/2002/melbourne/diapo_305.jpg

http://a324.g.akamai.net/f/324/3126/1d/www.f1-live.com/photos/2002/melbourne/diapo_306.jpg

http://a324.g.akamai.net/f/324/3126/1d/www.f1-live.com/photos/2002/melbourne/diapo_307.jpg

http://a324.g.akamai.net/f/324/3126/1d/www.f1-live.com/photos/2002/melbourne/diapo_308.jpg

[HaeLari Draevyn]

For some reason, the way that car landed and flew like that, it reminded me of the Bat Mobile...

[Lady Vader]

Mama mia!! Maybe it WAS batman driving! O_o

[HaeLari Draevyn]

*now has this song stuck in her head... sings it!*

Na, na, na, na, na, na, na, na BATMAN!

[Figrin D'an]

Fortunately, the car didn't start to tumble end over end... that has happened plenty of times when an F1 or CHAMP car goes airborne... I think Ralf Schumacher should consider himself very lucky.

The design of those cars allows for a tremendous amount of downforce to be exerted on the car, but if even a little bit airflow gets beneath the chassis, the body of the car is so light that it will go airborne fairly quickly.

The landing on the back tires pretty much saved it. Any other kind of landing, and that car would have been in few thousand pieces...

[HaeLari Draevyn]

>_< Ouch that would have sucked... although that's one of the only reasons I watch races once in a while, to watch them crash up. But thats only when I'm bored and nothing else is on. :D

[Sith Ahnk]

*Bows head for Greg Moore*

[ReaperFett]

I remember Ricardo Patrese sending his Williams into a 360 backward flip. And Martin Brundle flipping his, and skidding hundreds of yards down the track. Ahh, memories :)

[Loki Ahmrah]

I stayed up to watch that last night - what a start to the season (Shumacher won! Yay!:)) - although I thought it was absolutely ridiculous that the race wasn't restarted.

[ReaperFett]

I stayed up too :)


All I can say is:



YEAH MINARDI!!!!!!!!!!!!!!


:)

[Taataani Meorrrei]

The reason that doesn't happen all the time is due to the Bernoulli principle...the same law of physics that allows for airplanes to fly. In airplanes, it takes longer for displaced air to traverse over the top of the wing, a teardrop-shaped curve, rather than the bottom of the wing, which is flat. This time discrepancy creates a vacuum effect, providing lift that the plane uses to fly.

In F1 racing, those cars have spoiler fins, one in front of the front tires, and one in the back. These operate on the same principle, but with the flat end on top and the teardrop curve on the bottom. This creates a reverse-direction vacuum effect, which keeps the racing car pressed down onto the track.

[HaeLari Draevyn]

O_o You lost me in the first paragraph LOL Oooh, no wonder I didn't do well in science class!

[Marcus Telcontar]

The reason that doesn't happen all the time is due to the Bernoulli principle...the same law of physics that allows for airplanes to fly. In airplanes, it takes longer for displaced air to traverse over the top of the wing, a teardrop-shaped curve, rather than the bottom of the wing, which is flat. This time discrepancy creates a vacuum effect, providing lift that the plane uses to fly.

NO

What keeps a Formula 1 car on the ground is airflow Management - and there is a subtle, but big difference. A "wing" is what was first used in 1968, however these have morphed into the spoilers (Which are the correct term) today. Today the spoilers are devices that manage the air flow around the car, creating a vaccuum and an airflow at the same time underneath the undertray and creating presice high load areas above the wheels and suspension - Downforce. While on a true wing, you avoid air turbulance, a true spoiler introduces turbulance and lanier flow distruption, especially around the Bi-foil rear. A Cunard is used to give the spoilers maximum effect. The front and rear wings dont have to be winged at all, as ong as it simply channels air to exactly where it is needed.

What you also dont see is the veloices that micromanage the airflow as well. There is at the back undertray, a shaped air race that allows air to escape behind the car, reducing the drag effects of the rear spoiler, while also dragging air through the radiators and engine assemblies.

A close up to the spolier will show that while it looks like wing - vaguely, it is also far from it. A F1 car is also of staying on the ground without it's spoliers, however those spoilers allow the car itself to go around corners at 4G and brake at 5G. Just lifting off the trottle is enough to induce 1G of stopping power by drag alone.

Also a true wing is effected by attack direction. A Spoiler, with it's cunards, gurney flap and other devices is far less affected if the air is not rushing directily over the device and not head on.
Also - now here is the kicker - a plane wants the vacuum ABOVE the wing. On a race car you want the vacuum (and also - correct airflow) BELOW the floorpan. Just having wings will not do this. You can only do this by airflow management.

Non tech speaking, a race car's air dams and spoilers are big air shovels, not wings. Somethimes they dont need to work under any vacuum priciple, they are like air bulldozers that gather up and compress the air in front, giving it more weight to push down on the a car with. In this crude case, you dont really worry about what's behind, all the work is in front, just like a bulldozer.



EDIT : Make sure you read I said Vacuum AND airflow. sometimes a highpressure sopt must be right next to a low pressure spot.

[Taataani Meorrrei]

If you can pull one of those spoilers off and not see that half teardrop form, then you'll prove me wrong. Until then, all you've done is gotten very technical, and not done a thing to disprove what I've stated about that principle. I know there are other dynamics at stake, but thats a key one.

I also stated about where the vacuum is...just exactly as you said. Please read my post again :)

[Marcus Telcontar]

I just went looking at my race car. It has a spoiler on the front.

It is not teardropped shaped. It is a flat piece of plastic that extends 30 cm from the front lip of the bumper, it is 60 cm wide, going backwards and is slanted upwards. There is an aero race extending to both sides that channels air to the brakes and suspension, which also allows the trapped air to escape off the spoiler and dissuse around the car in an indirect manner, instead of being forced to re-exit the airrace forward and around the nose of the car.

A spolier does not need to be teardropped shaped at all. It can be flat and thin in cross-section, IF the matierial can stand the aero load.

Please re-read what i wrote. nowhere did I mention teardrops, that was intentional as a teardrop is not necessary to produce the effects I talk of. I am also a 12 year veteran of motorsport to back it up and the current owner of two race cars - rally cars yes, which rely less on spoilers than do open wheelers, but the principles are still required. I also build race cars as a hobby, while my brother is an extremely proficent car builder and we both liek to fight and argue over any new devices and technologies and apply them to our own vehivles, if legal.

[Jubei SaDherat Vader]

Is your car a F1?

[ReaperFett]

is yours?

[Marcus Telcontar]

Does it matter? Same principles apply. As long as the foil is slanted upwards, or better still, cupped into the direction of travel it will work.

Do this experiment.

Take a piece of tin sheet. Run down the street with it, inclining the sheet in different attack angles. See which one produces the most lift and the most downforce.

Now cup the sheet. Try different angles, curves, etc. Add a flap to the trailing edge.

What you will find is the cupped tin becomes less sensitive to pitch changes in the downforce it creates and at certaian curves will produce much more downforce than the simlpe flat foil.

Now, punch a few holes in the tin curve and see what the differences are.

You now have a F-1 spoiler and it certainly is not a teardrop. It is the curve that produces the most downforce, not the teardrop shape. That's an aero drag lessening technique (if a thin foil can not support the weight of the downforce), with the added effect of a small addition to your downforce. Bout not as muchas the curves will.

A true wing and Bernotti (sp) priciple also does not induce turbulance, nor does it change airflow to a great degree. A spoiler on the other hand absolutly does and depends on that turbulance, plus also changeds the airflow greatly. And that is what a race car depends on for areo grip.

[Darth Viscera]

are you guys talking bernouli's theory?

[HaeLari Draevyn]

Whatever it is, my head hurts now..:headache

[Taataani Meorrrei]

I know the principle works that way. I was talking about F1 racers...which DO use a half teardrop spoiler.

[Marcus Telcontar]

I'm not :)

And as for stubborn up there..... the teardrop is not for downforce, it provides little in percentage terms, which is what your failing to notice - and which is what I am pointing out. It is not the teardrop (which is lift neutral and a superb aerodynamic drag reduction design) but it is the other design factors that do the whole downforce job on the car itself.

Now, if you think you know how and why a F1 Spoiler works, tell me what a gurney flap is and how much does it contribute to the downforce a spoiler produces. Percentagewise.

Next, list what the curvature of the spoiler can do.

After that, the end plates, what do they contribute?

How about a cunard?

What about holing the spoiler... what does that contribute?

What about construction? What does that contribute?

How about surface coverings?

How much more downforce does a twin plane spoiler give and why?

[Figrin D'an]

Infomation for the masses:

Bernoulli's Principle: The pressure of a fluid will decrease as it's velocity increases.

Pressure + (Kinectic Energy/Volume) = Constant

or

(1/2)pv² + pgh + P = Constant

The end result is an applied net force (see Newton's 2nd Law).


Keep in mind however (including those that have been using this principle in arguements) that Bernoulli's original assumption only holds true for an ideal and incompressible fluid... air is hardly either of these things.

[Darth Viscera]

an electra can do right fine in a thermal, I tell you what. ever see those birds circling around for no apparent reason? they're using hot air as lift, and banking steadily to stay within the hot air updraft (for lack of a better word). given enough lift and a german glider with a V-tail, you could stay within a thermal indefinitely.

[Darth Viscera]

bah, i always use bernoulli's theory for airfoils. Ever tried to laser-cut the frame of a 78" polyhedral glider wing? fly pretty well, too. I know how air reacts when it encounters a leading edge.

[Strider]

Watch the F1 Race Car take off!

See the wonderous flight of the Car that is supposed to stay on the ground!

Watch as people argue over a simple name for a spoiler on a car that keeps it to the ground unless the driver gets too close to the other car!

[Marcus Telcontar]

But some cars ARE meant to fly!!!



http://www.rally-live.com/photos/2001/finland/diapo_421.jpg

[HaeLari Draevyn]

:lol Cool!

[Gav Mortis]

I can't abide physics! :x

Man sticking laws and equations onto things that take away their natural beauty and mystery.