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Ysanne Isard
Feb 20th, 2002, 05:04:27 PM
(On the risk of angering some here by posting this, I post it anyway. I found it an interesting piece of writing, and echoing quite well the feelings and thoughts of many people over here in Europe - so I just had to translate it. Enjoy! :p)



The furrows on his forehead have grown deeper, the foolish grin has vanished. Looking serious, almost grim, George W. Bush just gave his first report about the nation's situation: "Our nation is at war, our economy is in recession, and the civilized world faces unprecedented dangers." Then he made a small break and triumphantly looked around himself: "Yet the state of our Union has never been stronger." Delegates and ministers, who had assembled for the ritualistic celebration in the Capitol, could not keep to their seats. 77 times, every 40 seconds, they interrupted Bush's war speech with standing ovations.
When and where the US army will strike next is not yet certain. But the "Axis of evil" - North Korea, Iran, and Iraq - had better be prepared. Who ever will risk being behind the next terrorist attack can be sure - the United States will strike back like they did in Afghanistan. No one can stand up against the super power that is the US.

The United States of America are the number one in any area - militarily, economically, technically and culturally. It has the highest defense budget - bigger than that of Russia, Japan, China, England, Germany, India, Pakistan and France together. It has military bases in over 30 nations. The American economy dominates the world. The USA encompass only little more than four percent of the world population, yet they produce 30 percent of all trade goods. Five of the ten biggest companies of the planet are US-owned. The dollar rules over the world of finance. "When Wall Street coughs, the European stock exchanges get pneumonia," is a common saying of the brokers in Frankfurt and London.

Science and research are on a level Europe can only dream of. In the past 50 years the Americans received the Nobel Prize for Physics 66 times, for Medicine 68 times, for Chemistry 42 times. And three out of four German Nobel prize winners of the past years are doing their research in the USA. It is not the money that makes America so attractive - it's the freedom. Here there is none of this "bureaucracy which keeps throwing you a club between your feet", says the German researcher Rudolf Jaenisch who teaches at the renowned Whitehead Institute in Cambridge, Massachusetts. Not even horrendous college fees can deter anyone: per year, US universities draw half a million of the best students of the entire world to them.

And the cultural supremacy is overwhelming, too. American books, movies and TV series dominate the bestseller lists, cinemas and TV screens of the world. 44 of the 50 most successful films of all times in German cinemas came from Hollywood. The same mob which burned US flags in the streets of Karachi "is happily watching pirated copies of "Rambo” in the evenings", a radio reporter in Pakistan was wondering.

"The greatest country of the world" (Bush) has changed since September 11th. On that fateful Tuesday a 225-year-old myth collapsed - the belief in America's invincibility. And ever since, it reaches as far as into Bush's cabinet - the question of which policy the Superpower should adopt in the future. To rule over the other countries like the Imperium Romanum once did? To co-operate with the rest of the world? Or should the Americans withdraw from international politics and only interfere again if their own vital interests are touched upon?

Every option is being discussed without consulting the majority of the population - maybe even without consulting the people's representatives. Foreign politics don't interest the Americans much. What kind of enormous effects "the modernisation of the world under American leadership" has, according to the historian Paul Kennedy, is something the architects of this domination think about very rarely.

A survey by the Pew Research Center in Washington recently showed "the huge gap which exists between the opinion leaders in the USA and other parts of the world". Just 18 percent of Americans questioned believe US politics are one of the causes for the terror attacks - twice the number of West Europeans are convinced of it, 60 percent even in Asia and 76 percent in the Islamic Nations. A majority of Americans is of the opinion the USA would "do much good" - that is the same as what 20 percent think in West Europe and the Islamic Nations; in South America, where the US influence is at its heaviest, it is even a mere 12 percent.

No other civilised people is living as satisfied and confident in its own world as the US-Americans. Only a few speak a language other than their native one. The magazine "National Geographic" found out in a survey that more than three quarters of the people asked can't find Japan on a map of the world; 20 percent didn't even know where their own country was. "World Series" is the title of the final game of the US Baseball Championship, yet it is merely the leading teams of the two US leagues playing against each other.

"The attacks of September 11 have made it all too clear that we can not ignore what goes on elsewhere in the world," complained the Glam-Magazine "Vanity Fair". The American Media had "restricted its foreign coverage by almost 70 to 80 percent in the last 15 to 20 years". Their argument for it: No one would be interested in it anyway, since it did not concern the Americans. The 11th of September has brought them painfully back to ground zero.

But it is not only Joe Smith in front of his tv set in Iowa who is badly informed. The fraction leader of the Republicans in Congress, the Texan Dick Armey, boasted a few years ago: "I was once in Europe - I don't need to go there again." He corrected himself later, when he "discovered that there is a world full of people out there who are worried about us Americans who don't have any direct experience of the world outside of our own borders". Many delegates are proud of the fact that they do not own a passport.

Foreign nations are often only noticed when US soldiers go to fight there. The coverage of the news channel Fox TV apparently hits the nerve centre of the public. Fox is the megaphone of the Couch-Rambos; on some days it already surpassed its biggest competitor, CNN. When Fox staff members report from Afghanistan, they only refer to Osama bin Laden by "dirt bag" or "monster". When the American Taliban-fighter John Walker Lindh was imprisoned, the "New York Post" ran as its headline: "Looks like a rat, talks like a rat, smells like a rat, hides like a rat!" Then the readers could vote online: "Is Walker a traitor?" The result was inevitable logic: Put him on the chair.
In the weeks following September 11th the famous composure of the Americans was occasionally badly mauled. The delegate Barbara Lee, from Berkeley, California, who had been the only one in the House of Delegates voting against Bush's crusade, needed a police escort. In a museum in Houston the FBI arrived because an anonymous caller had reported "anti-American art" to be shown there. Exhibited was a chalk drawing which criticised Bush's environmental politics.

"Nothing is more annoying than this destructive patriotism of the Americans", wrote one of the best experts of the country, the Frenchman Alexis de Tocqueville, 160 years ago. In the war months following September 11th that patriotism occasionally took on hysterical traits; a good example for that being when Bush's press-speaker Ari Fleischer warned the intellectuals "to be careful of what they said or did". The writers Susan Sontag was attacked in an even more aggressive way: "I suggested that we should rethink our foreign policies. Is that such a crazy idea? I thought we were a contentious democracy, but increasingly it seems as if we were incredibly conformist and afraid of criticism."

Which strategy the world power should adopt after the attacks is a matter much disputed internally. The Right Wing, led by Deputy Minister of Defense Paul Wolfowitz, is viewing the whole Afghanistan matter as an acceleration of its own interests and would love to strike at Iraq, too. If the Allied Forces would go along with that or not, that doesn't really interest them. Ten years ago - back in the days when Bush's father was still president - Wolfowitz, as a political thinker in the Pentagon, drew up a controversial strategy of domination. According to that, America would have to "discourage any attempts made by other advanced industrial nations to challenge our leadership or even just play a bigger role regionally or globally." Since the secret paper was passed on to the "New York Times" in 1991, it has given wings to the dreams of the Neo-Imperialists. What they have in mind is a "new Empire" which provides for peace and order on a chaotic planet - played by US rules.

September 11th had proved that more power and interference would not have made the USA more secure, is the argument against that view. Therefore it would be best to stop playing at policing the entire world. For example the Gulf Region: Why should the USA spend more than 100 billion dollars every year on it, even though it only got one fourth of the oil from that region? Shouldn't that explosive job be left to those who were depending more strongly on the Arabic oil, like Europe and Japan? Absurd, is what the opposing voices say about this theory. Europe was unable to keep peace on its own continent. A withdrawal of the USA and its forces would only serve to create greater chaos.

Before being elected Bush had promised that the USA under his leadership would "tread in more humble ways: If we do not want to be seen as the ugly American any longer, we need to stop telling the whole world: We do it like this, and that's how you should do it, too."

But 6 months later the "New York Times" already criticised Bush, saying he had displayed a true "arrogance and disregard in the field of international co-operation". One after the other, Bush quit, sabotaged or broke out of contracts because they did not serve "American interests" - like the Kyoto-agreement which should reduce the output of the Greenhouse-gas Carbon Dioxide. The ABM-treaty with Russia, which limits the amount of intercontinental missiles, was quit, because it restricts the build-up of a US anti-missiles defense shield. The Nuclear Test Stop treaty is as good as dead, the Anti-Landmines-treaty was rejected, the Small-Arms agreement was worked down to a shallow compromise, because Bush didn't want to scare away the arms lobby with its generous donations.

Last December, while Washington was being terrorised by Anthrax-attacks, Bush broke out of the Bio Weapons agreement, because it didn’t have enough bite. In reality the US pharmacological industry didn't want to have to subject itself to the control of international inspectors. The USA also rejects the International Criminal Court for War Criminals - they do not want members of the US forces to be placed before international judges.

The criticism of the Europeans about all that self-glorification did not seem to make any kind of impact on the Americans for the longest time. But in recent days the tone on both side of the Atlantic has become more irritable. When the USA lost her seat in the UN Human Rights Committee because of an intrigue in May of last year, a commentator let off steam in the "Washington Post": "Europe's ruling classes will never forgive us for creating a world in which they do not rule over anything more than handmade cheese." Because Europe recently criticised the American plans to sentence terrorists in military tribunals, the "Wall Street Journal" made fun of the "moral blustering" of the old continent: "Hopefully it'll be enough to conquer Omaha Beach on their own the next time."

The Americans are tired of being held responsible for every ill on the world, especially by the Europeans. Many conflicts they inherited from the colonial powers of the old continent. If they lead the Gulf War with a mandate from the United Nations, then it is evidence of how the USA manipulates the UN for her own goals. If they lead a war without a UN mandate, like in Afghanistan, then it is proof for the disregard of the world organisation. If they do not interfere, like in Rwanda, they get accused of cold-bloodedly watching the genocide without lifting a finger. If they do interfere, like in Somalia, they are seen as the arrogant world police. And no one in Washington has forgotten how miserably the Europeans failed at keeping Yugoslavia from breaking out in civil war.

America is convinced more than ever before that its own playing rules of capitalism could save the world from poverty. The factors that had helped make it so wealthy itself – democracy, free trade and a harsh competition – was also the perfect recipe for everyone else. But the rest of the world can’t help but perceive the process of globalisation becoming more and more a process of Americanisation, tailored after the robber-knights rules of the US corporations.

The biggest case of bankruptcy in US history, the case of the Energy tycoon Enron – who is closely associated with the Bush government – is a perfect example of the greed of the wealthy. The top employees knew exactly what kind of a scam the high rate of their company’s shares was, and pushed them off as long as the rate was still sky-high. The simple employees, however, could only rid themselves of their shares when they were already practically worthless. Thousands lost their old-age securities and pensions. It took months before the scandalous case was turned into a hot topic in the news, because Enron had bought so many politicians with his donations that “it would be easier to ask who didn’t receive any money from them rather than the other way round”, commented “National Public Radio”. 71 of the one hundred senators were found to be on Enron’s list of donations.

It’s an American paradox: time again the self-named Exemplary Nation undermines exactly those values for which it likes to fight so valiantly with fire and iron. In what other country would it have been possible for a man to be made president if he had held half a million votes less than his opponent – and even those counted out like in some banana republic? Is it the ideal model for the rest of the world, if terrorists are put before military tribunals which deny them even those basic rights which would be granted to any common mass murderer? The “Lawyer’s Committee for Human Rights” in Washington asked: “When countries like Peru, Egypt and Colombia do something like that, our Foreign Ministry protests. What are we going to tell them in the future?”

Is the American way of distributing incomes a good example? In the last three decades the gap between the wealthiest and the rest of the population has grown steadily, more so than in any other industrial nation. Almost half of the enormous growth in incomes went to the very thin class of top earners – a mere one percent of employees. And to the poor countries the USA have been making promises of “wealth never before experienced” if they agree to dance to their neo-liberal tune, “but the promise hasn’t been kept, and the countries only got poverty such as they had never experienced”, wrote the Nobel Prize-winner for Economy, Joseph Stiglitz.

The urge to increase their net yields is something the Americans have always liked to connect to missionary zealousness. Whereas Europe has become worldlier since the Second World War, Religion plays an increasingly important role in US politics. The Republican Party is being dominated by its fundamental wing. “The new leader of the religious Right in America is called George W. Bush,” commented the “Washington Post” recently. With the fury of a man come lately to his faith (Bush won the victory over his alcoholism at the age of forty, with the help of the televangelist Billy Graham), he is now pursuing world politics with the bible in his hand.

The love for religious zealotry and for patriotism “isn’t truly new”, wrote the “New York Times”, “we are a Nation which created itself and we are fiercely defensive of our master piece. One isn’t American just by blood or by ancestry.” One of the greatest experts of the USA put it this way: “Time and time again the inhabitants of the United States are told they are the only religious, enlightened and truly free people on this world. They have an immensely high opinion of themselves and aren’t far from believing that they are a species apart from the human race.” So Toqueville wrote 50 years after the Declaration of Independence. The same still applies now.

Stern Magazine - Claus Lutterbeck / Co-operation: Michael Streck

Sanis Prent
Feb 20th, 2002, 05:48:14 PM
Ah the argument over the "American worldview". Seen it so many times it makes me sick. Its the ultimate "damned if you do and damned if you don't" kind of scenario.

Let me start by acknowledging the non-perfect nature of American politics/economy/society, etc. Yes I acknowledge that. Now in converse, find me a perfect one. Or even find me a better one. Good luck. You won't. Of course, I would love to see some socialist reforms take place in our economy cough:salarycap:cough...and some other increased facets of government control, like healthcare and whatnot. Yes, there are some who still have ghosts of racism in their policies, too...sadly to say. Guess what guys...this isn't an American problem. If you think it is, look at disproportionate differences between cartel leaders, warlords, and the like to their poverty-stricken populations. Even at our worst, its a picnic compared to their best. Take a look at Tutsis and Hutus...Croats, Serbs, Kosovar-Albanians....Catholics and Protestants hmmm. You'll find our social blights to be tame. At least we're on the whole striving to end them. There are hundreds of nations with hundreds of race wars still going...and they're government sanctioned.

Now our foreign policy also seems to be locked into conundrum. Should we become some Neo-Roman empire? God knows we could if we so desired. Its not a new idea. We've had our eye on Canada, Mexico, and the entire western hemisphere for over 150 years. Nothing new at all. Look up Manifest Destiny..and you'll see that there are quite a few who see it as something we should've done a while back.

No, I don't believe in a United Planet of America. I don't want that kind of responsibility on my nation's shoulders.

What about the global police? Some think we should just butt out? I'm one of those people who think that global cooperation is major, but what happens when everything stagnates, and nobody lifts a finger? I'd personally love to see the UN become much more empowered, but I have to ask myself if it would do any damn bit of difference.

And then there are some fools who think America should just stick to American concerns. I say fools, because these people are ignorant morons, too stupid and blinded by their lack of history to understand the implications of the crap they suggest. We've tried isolationism. The rest of the world doesn't seem to want us to play that tune. Guess what? America isn't inherently evil...human beings are. And there are plenty of history books to show exactly the kind of crap to grow out of the neglect of American attention.

Lemme break it down:

Nations that kidnap innocent sailors on the high seas, forcing them to crew their own ships at gunpoint -- England.

Nations that force Jews to wear little yellow stars, then ultimately decide that they're better off dead, and that the whole world belongs to the Aryan race -- Germany.

Nations that test the sharpness of their officers swords by seeing how many POW's they can decapitate in one swing, and whom subject entire cities to tests of biological weaponry -- Japan

Nations whom gather up all intellectuals, artisans, and jews to labor in hellish winter slave camps -- Russia

Nations who have consistently killed their fellow man for over 100 years, because they cannot agree on religious philosophies -- Ireland


I can go on into mundane details, but do you want to read them? A wise man once said "Let he who is without sin cast the first stone". I don't deny that my own country has done things that are wrong. Our interrment of Japanese-Americans was shameful. Acts of racism against African-Americans, Native-Americans, and others were also dark blots on our past. Oh yes, we have done bad things.

But we are not alone, and those who consider themselves "reformed nations" should take a damn close look at themselves to see if they too have done such, or maybe...are still doing such things.

I find no fault in criticizing the small things within America. I do this plenty enough on my own clock, I assure you. But those who want a soapbox to stand on, and think that America is this evil, corrupt global cancer...they'd better get a dose of reality in their diet.

It can be a lot worse....a helluva lot worse.

ReaperFett
Feb 20th, 2002, 05:53:44 PM
And then there are some fools who think America should just stick to American concerns. I say fools, because these people are ignorant morons, too stupid and blinded by their lack of history to understand the implications of the crap they suggest
Well, I'd love a leader who occasionally did something for the country that voted him in.








(EDIT- I'm not talking about Bush!:))

Sanis Prent
Feb 20th, 2002, 05:59:54 PM
There's still time to vote down the Magna Carta :p

I'm sure the ol' lady could help ya out TONS

Gash Jiren
Feb 20th, 2002, 07:33:49 PM
Geez. I got into this one.

I started writing this reply about thirty minutes ago, and it went from a short rant to... aw, hell a longer rant. If I offend, take it like a man and hit me back; I'm not infalliable, just opinonated. If I totally missed the point altogether, well, such is life. To anyone who actually reads all of this, you are thanked. By actually taking the time to do so, you earn the right to call me anything you want, including the following: idiot, moron, fool, dipswitch, foul-mouthed jackass, loser, buttmunch, and hoser.

Enjoy.


Well, I'd love a leader who occasionally did something for the country that voted him in.

He says, as the world goes hungry, and America bombs a nation made up primarily of peaceful people back to the stone age for the actions of nineteen men, one leader, and a beligerent faction of terrorists. He says, as America's leader breaks rules protecting human rights because they don't suit him. He says, as the nation with the most military might on Earth- thereby obligated to be a beacon of peace and justice- values every American life at ten times the value of each other country. He says, as America's leader foists off planes which pose a definite threat to anyone and everyone off to land in a country bordering his own on 9/11, the capital of which his people cannot name.

Just because you're not Italian, Spanish, Irish, English, Scottish, Portugese, German, Brazilian, Columbian, Australian, Trinidadi, Sri Lankan, Chinese, Japanese, or Korean doesn't mean squat. It's a global village, and if you can afford to take responsibilities for those not from your nation, you are obliged to do so.

Straight up: I'm not American. I come from Canada, so my views are by nature different from your's.

America needs to get up and start fixing things for everyone, including themselves. If you have such a great economy and military, why not go out on a limb and do something crazy like, oh, say, feed the starving nations of the earth?

Why?

Because America is so far from perfection, it's not even within view. Exemplar? Are you kidding me? Take it from a person who has lived in a European nation as well as Canada; no one wants to be like America. A people for whom the world begins and ends within the borders of their nation is not an example for the world to follow. The world seems to be a big playground for America, the big bully on campus; they've got the best clothes, the best toys, the biggest gang. They make the rules, they break the rules, they send their forces where they want, they bomb with impunity, because no one can stop them.

Like most bullies, America's home life is nothing to brag about. For a country with fabulous economy, you're pretty bad off- go downtown and see what the capitalist society that earned you the right to call your economy great left in the dust. For a country with fabulous culture, America is ranked awefully low on the list of best nations to live in. For a country with a huge military, I honestly don't see enough responsibility taken.

To be quite honest, the raw arrogance of America is what angers methe most; you glorify yourself as some sort of Land of Milk and Honey. You enforce laws and treaties on other nations, then break them when they no longer suit you. What an example to set!

I'd like to quote from Prent's post. It was good, and as well written as these things come- I just totally disagree with it. Gotta love diversity. Try not to take my retort personally.


No, I don't believe in a United Planet of America. I don't want that kind of responsibility on my nation's shoulders....

That's a terrible thing to say, Sanis. How thoughtless. You don't want the responsibility? Did it occur to you that, duh, conquering the world with your army might be, like, I dunno, immoral? That you have an obligation to protect, because of your huge armed forces? That comment blows my mind. Manifest Destiny was, excuse my language, a crock of ****. A piece of American high-horsemanship written over a hundred years ago. America has outgrown the age of killing for kicks.


Nations that kidnap innocent sailors on the high seas, forcing them to crew their own ships at gunpoint -- England.

Nations that force Jews to wear little yellow stars, then ultimately decide that they're better off dead, and that the whole world belongs to the Aryan race -- Germany.

Nations that test the sharpness of their officers swords by seeing how many POW's they can decapitate in one swing, and whom subject entire cities to tests of biological weaponry -- Japan

Nations whom gather up all intellectuals, artisans, and jews to labor in hellish winter slave camps -- Russia

Nations who have consistently killed their fellow man for over 100 years, because they cannot agree on religious philosophies -- Ireland

Why, Sanis. How poor. You never spoke about the greatest symbol of American neglect. A place where children go hungry and abused, one in three of all women are raped, millions are murdered every year, where children bring their guns to school, where kindergarten students empty five rounds into a classmate when they come back from lunch. The core of the world's pornography industry, where a construction worker might let his wife and the thousand homeless on his streets go hungry, but always has enough money for beer, cigarettes, marijuana, and kinky adult movies. Where your own people bomb capital buildings. And it's where our good friend Mr. bin Laden unloads a good deal of his opium.

The greatest symbol of what happens when America just doesn't give a damn.

America.

It's time that America started giving a damn.

If you're the beacon of light in the world, step up and act like it, for God's sake. I'm sorry if you don't like it, but you have a responsibility for everyone, not just yourselves. As far as I've seen, the government hasn't really been living up to that responsibility thus far. Perhaps it is you, Americans, who should take a "damn close look" at yourself, and see what kind of example our supposed leader has been setting for us. It's not one I'd want to follow. Anyone who proclaims themselves as the greatest nation on earth should be the greatest nation on earth. If you can release a list of "Rogue Nations", the least you can do is start helping solve the world's problems- because it's obvious America wants to be a leader.

There's a whole world of bull**** out there, and the responsibility falls to our most powerful ally to clean it up. And I'd say it starts with that capitalist society giving a little. Considering that a dollar buys a day's meal, and Bill Gates has enough money to buy the hungriest nation on Earth, a tiny little bit of the responsibility of being a beacon of hope falls to the people in that beacon. Because some of those hungry are on your streets. So are some of the terrorists, and the murderers, and the rapists.

The following poem applies:
Six humans trapped by happenstance
in black and bitter cold
Each possessed a stick of wood,
Or so the story's told.

Their dying fire in need of logs,
the first woman held hers back
For on the faces around the fire
She noticed one was black.

The next man looking 'cross the way
Saw one not of his church
And couldn't bring himself to give
The fire his stick of birch.

The third one sat in tattered clothes
He gave his coat a hitch,
Why should his log be put to use
To warm the idle rich?

The rich man just sat back and thought
Of the wealth he had in store,
And how to keep what he had earned
From the lazy, shiftless poor.

The black man's face bespoke revenge
As the fire passed from his sight,
For all he saw in his stick of wood
Was a chance to spite the white.

And the last man of this forlorn group
Did naught except for gain,
Giving only to those who gave
Was how he played the game.

The logs held tight in death's stilled hands
Was proof of human sin,
They didn't die from the cold without,
They died from the cold within.

And now, I'll try to draw this all back to the original topic.

Even if it contradicts the rest of my rant, in my personal opinion, the world should stop thinking of ways to be better than everyone else. America shouldn't think of itself as the greatest nation on Earth; just as all men are created equal, no union of men is better than any other. We shouldn't have to be conquered by the army of the U.S.A. to start thinking like a whole; we're one world, one human race, and if America starts to (and continues to) share it's numerous blessings, it may just find some of it's own burdens lifted. Maybe I'm an idealist, but anything's possible.

We shouldn't even need foreign policy.

Because the word "foreign" doesn't exist anymore. We're one world, and like it or not, we're all stuck together on a world we can't leave. There are no nations. There are only humans. There are no races. Only the human race; why the hell can't we just act like it? I really do hate to sound like some sort of religious fanatic, but it's what I think, so I type it in.

Maybe I do need a dose of reality in my diet.

Maybe America does, too.

I don't know if I got my point across, there. I don't even know if I know the point myself, but hell, it's an open forum, ain't it?

It can get a helluva lot worse.

But it can get a helluva lot better.

Peace.

Sanis Prent
Feb 20th, 2002, 07:58:07 PM
I'm invalidating such an asinine little rant about America's domestic faults. I do believe that alot of those same domestic issues that you point your finger so eagerly with are proportionally just as prevalent up there in America Jr.

I went on plenty enough to say that America isn't innocent in the matter. If you think Canadians are any better, you are damn hopeless.

Conquering the world is just as immoral as watching it tear itself apart. Neither of which, if you actually read my post, I condone.

Yes, there needs to be cooperation. But with any kind of consensus matter, you get into things simply not getting done. The fewer involved in decision making processes, the quicker the response. Whether its the appropriate response or not...thats subjective.

Since the end of the cold war, America is the sole superpower. Doesn't mean we rule the world, nor do we want to. But people look to us to DO SOMETHING. We don't, they complain. We do, they complain. There comes a point to cooperate, and there comes a point to simply refuse to appease a bunch of habitual whiners who can't combine their international assets to pull their own damn weight. Look up sovereignity. Yeah, we'll try to please as many parties involved, but we're also not going to compromise ourselves. The fact of the matter is, for every point you've brought up of American greed, I can bring up another of American generosity. We're already working abroad in countless organizations, and spending millions upon millions to improve the lives of those abroad. When is enough enough? When Mr. Gates is penniless? When everybody gives up all their belongings and rations them out...giving them up for the government to dispense evenly among the starving peoples of the world?

I'm sorry Mr. Jiren...but I'm not a communist, and I will never be one. But I'll help when I can, and I'll be damned if you'll judge me for saying my help "isn't enough".

And your whole view on "foreign policy" is naive, modernist trash. Obviously such geographical differences in opinion are pretty damn indicative of the necessity of such practices.

You have some good ideas, so unfortunately I can't discount your entire spiel as total drivel. But you also need to dislocate your hip, and give your idealistic butt a swift self-kicking, because thats the only positive change that can come out of all this.

Gash Jiren
Feb 20th, 2002, 08:15:04 PM
America Jr... someone is quoting Simpsons. In fact, the rates of all the above problems mentioned are a good bit lower in Canada- and we rank third in the U.N.'s list of best places to live. American ranks something like 27th.

And, to begin with, I'm finding kicking my own ass rather difficult... and, I rather painfully discovered that dislocating your own hip doesn't help matters much.

So your "every man for himself" trash is better than my naive trash? I'll admit to having posted some naive opinions in that post- and, to be quite honest, I realize that nothing said will ever actually come to pass- but I figured I might as well just give my point of view from an idealist perspective.

Honestly, now.

Can you really say that America is using it's supposed dominance over the world in all aspects of a society well? That dispensing justice at the speed of sound only when two thousand of their own lives have been lost is the way they should be doing things?

And you are correct, it's a paradox along the lines of "damned if you do, damned if you don't". But I'd ask that you bear in mind that maybe America should do something for what the free world believes in first, and worry about satisfying the countries they have proclaimed "rogue nations" later. And to begin with, simply bombing a country doesn't help matters all that much- it's a quick fix, but it breeds more terrorists. And frankly, dropping food they hate out of the sky doesn't count.

I still stand by my statement that for many Americans, the world begins and ends within the borders of the United States of America. And the government represents the people. That's simply not how the most powerful nation on earth should be acting. Tell me I'm wrong, and I'll relocate my hip and give you a sound ass kicking.

Sith Ahnk
Feb 20th, 2002, 09:13:57 PM
Something Canada has never done: Given weapons to Osama Bin Laden

Jehova Eaven
Feb 20th, 2002, 09:27:59 PM
Does Canada even have weapons?

Sanis Prent
Feb 20th, 2002, 09:31:04 PM
You'd want the US to put all of its assets into "making the world a better place", and all that crap...instead of domestic concerns. I'm sorry, boo freakin hoo and all, but when push comes to shove, yes it will be "America first". Thats how sovereignity works. We ensure our prosperity, then do what whe can, when we can. If you don't like that...you can inform the other belleaguered nations to kindly do something on their own initiative. We aren't going to tap ourselves out in this idealistic crusade, and if the roles were reversed, neither would Canada.

And Ankh...how could they? Canada doesn't produce their own weapons...they get them from us! But I'll tell you what, they sure thought it was a good idea at the time, when we were arming the Afghans to halt the Soviet advance. I don't recall any particuarly vocal canadians being contrary to that, (and you guys are as known for arbitrary whining as you are for maple syrup and really crappy "bacon" that is more like ham). But yeah...go ahead and moan about it in hindsight :) Join the bandwagon thats bigger than hula hoops! I mean, if we didn't....I'm sure there would be some Canuck up there spouting the woes of America's lack of resolve, and the creation of the Soviet satellite of Afghanistan if we didn't try and indirectly oppose their invasion.

Once again...damned if we do, and damned if we don't. And I'm a bit fed up at the knee-jerk criticism from people who simply shouldn't be yapping about it.

Sith Ahnk
Feb 20th, 2002, 09:35:06 PM
And Ankh...how could they? Canada doesn't produce their own weapons...they get them from us! But I'll tell you what, they sure thought it was a good idea at the time, when we were arming the Afghans to halt the Soviet advance. I don't recall any particuarly vocal canadians being contrary to that, (and you guys are as known for arbitrary whining as you are for maple syrup and really crappy "bacon" that is more like ham). But yeah...go ahead and moan about it in hindsight Join the bandwagon thats bigger than hula hoops! I mean, if we didn't....I'm sure there would be some Canuck up there spouting the woes of America's lack of resolve, and the creation of the Soviet satellite of Afghanistan if we didn't try and indirectly oppose their invasion.

We have plenty of projects, such as the Avro Arrow, then the States decides we don't need that kind of technology and strongarms us into aborting them

If you want to give money to a hobo, you don't cry when he spends it on booze and gets drunk. You gave Bin Laden weapons, and he attacked you. *shrug* Next time, don't give him weapons.

Admiral Lebron
Feb 20th, 2002, 09:50:32 PM
Honestly if America wanted to take over the world, it could have done so by now. But if you noticed, we haven't made any aggressive actions that result in an invasion since the Mexican war, back in the mid-1800's. Everything else has been purchases or they are commonwealths.

As for our lovely "homelife," if you remember any history, that as the Industrial revolution came into full swing, and people all over the world began getting excess money, they went out and bought things to entertain them. Same thing as back then, only newer toys and harsher drugs. From tobacco to weed.

Look at more then half of Africa. Kids starve and women are raped everyday. More then in America, but since it's AMERICA we are talking about here, it is so much worse. To be truthful millions aren't raped, and like 100,000 kids are suffering from malnutrition and like 50,000 starving. That's pretty good.

One thing I am still trying to figure out though, is how come Canadians and Kiwi's think America is downright **** and that Americans are inferiror to them. I could go on for hours listing all of our pro's and cons. But I don't have the time nor patience. So, why not just pack your bags and move on down to America. See how it really is.

Sanis Prent
Feb 20th, 2002, 10:17:17 PM
Thank you Ankh, you freakin hindsight-genius extraordinaire. Maybe you'll also tell JFK junior not to fly in a private jet, 2 minutes after he crashes. Don't try to pass this off as wisdom. You read a newspaper, congratulations. It adds no leverage at all to any point you were or were not trying to make.

Phantom
Feb 20th, 2002, 10:34:23 PM
Dear God. Now you've done it. The gloves are coming off this time, I'm so F***ing tired of being PC all the time, afraid I'm going to hurt someones feelings, If I do to bad.

Jarin, what a shock its going to be when you step into reality, I think its going to be a real eye-opener. You are very Uninformed or Misinformed what ever the care may be. Most of your comments are just Ignerant and Immature, childish really. Such as your notions of having the world be one big nation, what a bunch of bull, they have a word for that "New World Order" or as I like to call it Global Communisum. If will never happen and I will fight and die to see that it never does.

You tell us that our towns and citys are slums and dumps, but yet you want us to help everyone first. I want you to tell we one, just one super-power that has not looked after their own inferests first before the rest of the world. We the US has babysitted the world for many years now, when is someone else going to step up to bat and help?

We are not the global Welfare, even though we do more then our fair share of giving. I want you to tell me one other country that is are good as the US, will you find one? No. Thats why we have Illeagal aliens sworming over our boarders.

When is the rest of the world going to stand on their own? When is our time done? I must same I belive with great power comes great responability and I think we have been plenty resonsable with our power.


If you want to give money to a hobo, you don't cry when he spends it on booze and gets drunk. You gave Bin Laden weapons, and he attacked you. *shrug* Next time, don't give him weapons.

What kinda dumb ass comment is that? Do you think we knew they were going to use their training to attack us?

Marcus Telcontar
Feb 20th, 2002, 10:39:45 PM
Will someone close this thread? It's just pure flame bait and I dont believe it is appropriate here.

Phantom
Feb 20th, 2002, 10:43:38 PM
Then where does it belong? Mmmm. Its in an OOC forum.

Marcus Telcontar
Feb 20th, 2002, 10:52:22 PM
Well, if I didn't believe that there is no way this could be discussed ina civilised manner, then I would not be asking for the thread to be closed.

But basically, the original post is hwat I define a troll and flamebait. No replies so far have been much better. I really dont give a damn about either side, I came here to get away from discussions like this. I come here to relax and have fun, maybe throw about a few remarks

I will hereby register my disgust this article was put here in the first place and my disgust at the replies so far. The original post was just begging for a flamewar to erupt. I have no belief this will be discussed in a level headed way and that is why I believe it should be closed.

TheHolo.Net
Feb 20th, 2002, 10:55:12 PM
I concur, topic closed.