Fleet Rules Version 2.2

[Sumor Rayial]

Shipyards

<font color=red>All shipyards are structures that are 40km in length. Design and look may vary. A yard takes 40 days to become active. Yards may be moved, this takes them out of production for 20 days. All yards may not possess offensive weaponry, but may have defensive shields and defensive weaponry. Yards are also not allowed to manouver except as above. </font>

Shipyards build 250 meters / day
Example: .25 KM x 4 days = 1 KM.

<font color=red>Shipyards can not be combined except for special projects.
Note: - Capital ships that can hangar fighters and other ships do not have those other craft built at the same time. They must all be built separately. </font>

Number of yards per faction:

New Rep: 5
Greater Jedi Order: 1
Galactic Empire: 4
Imperial Intelligence Headquarters: 1
The Cizerack Pride: 1
The Vagrant Order: 1
Order of the Fist: 1
The Conclave: 4
The Sith Order: 3
Other Groups: 2 -- Given at least 5 distinct members.

These shipyards are representative of a group's total shipbuilding capacity. They are non-transferable. Details like planet location and number of yards in orbit is just for story material and do not impact these OOC rules. In addition, every group is allowed one civilian-run 40km shipyard which they can use to sell starships to potential customers. It is illegal to use these customer shipyards for the military gain of your group.

Special Projects / New Technology

up to 200 meters ship/starfighter/Ground Vehicle R&D/new weapon type=10 day research time
200 to 600 meters ship R&D=20 day research time
600 to 1100 meters ship R&D=30 day research time
1100 to 2000 meters ship R&D=40 day research time
If upgrading to a new mark of vessel, divide R&D time by two

No superlaser-wielding ships allowed (i.e. NSD's ASD's etc. are out). If you wish to have a starship with an onboard superlaser, you must RP it, and there will be a 90 day construction period. World Devastators require an RP, and take 90 days for 3 units. No ships bigger than an SSD unless you RP it and wait 90 days. Galaxy Guns take 90 days, and you must RP it. <font color=red> Death Stars take 180 days and you must RP it and take full all yard capacity.</font> Star Crushers are explicitly banned. Each 90-day project uses 1 shipyard for those 90 days, so you cannot use it that 1 shipyard to build anything else during that time.

All ships under 2000 m with the exception of SSD's are comparable to those that already exist are legally allowed to be developed without having an RP thread. Simply announce the type and designation of the ship and when the research will be completed in your groups forum. Any innovative or radical tech is subject to the scrutiny and approval or disapproval of your fellow fleet RPers, group leaders, and moderators.

Battle Rules

You must allow your enemy 36 hours to reply to your posts.

You must first weaken a ships shields/hull over 4 posts before being able to destroy it.

You can not destroy a starfighter unless agreed by both parties whether it is a dogfight or run against a capital ship. You are allowed to disable over 2 posts if the owner of the starfighter does not respond to save it.

* Note if a fighter is a fighter pilot character it may not be destroyed but only disabled unless both parties agree on the kill.

<font color=red>Other

You can never destroy a planet.

Use your own judgment when role playing. These rules are not set in stone nor are meant to stifle your creative freedom.

Have fun. Winning isn't everything
The guiding rules of all roleplay must be followed ie :-

No God Mode
No Killing
No Maiming
Appropriate use of Common Sense and Fair Play
A sense of openness and a willingness to discuss and negotiate.

The three strike rule
Outright cheating or excessive disobedience to guidelines will be punished, first time by warning, second by loss of a yard, third by outright loss of allowance to fleet roleplay.
Administrator ruling are final </font>


Misc:

1) A 10km station should take about 5 weeks to produce using one yard. A 2km station, one week. However, if you believe that these are not actual starships and therefore subject to being built by construction yards rather than shipyards, you can use the construction yards to construct them, within reason, and it won't come out of your shipyards. Too, small ships which are 5 meters and under (tugs, trade federation droid fighters) may be constructed at construction yards rather than shipyards, for they are of negligible size and not worth the worry of having to categorize and arrange craft of their meager size, so long as they are not of radical design. Anything that fits into this category of 5 meters and under should be fodder-like.

2) The 3 shipyards means you have 3 40km shipyards. You can put them wherever you'd like as long as they orbit a planet in your possession. To move a shipyard it takes 10 days, during which time the shipyard that is being moved may construct nothing.

<font color=red>3) personal ships can not be used in battle without the consent of the opposing group</font>

[Sumor Rayial]

Here are some things that I see as places that some changes could be made. Not sure what Tondry had on his revisions, so if anyone was talking to him and knew of some of the changes please post them.

1) Aren't some of the groups here joined together now? Thought the NR had 6 yards and TGE 5, with GJO, and Imp Intel being taken into their respective parent group.

New Rep: 5
Greater Jedi Order: 1
Galactic Empire: 4
Imperial Intelligence Headquarters: 1
The Cizerack Pride: 1
The Vagrant Order: 1
Order of the Fist: 1
The Conclave: 4
The Sith Order: 3

2) There was never any real agreement on a cap for the size of personal fleets. 5 Km total was suggested though, and sounds resonable to me.

3)
Note: - Capital ships that can hangar fighters and other ships do not have those other craft built at the same time. They must all be built separately.

We're removing this no?

[TheHolo.Net]

I believe this topic contains some of what Tondry was working on:
http://www.swforums.net/forum/showthread.php?s=&threadid=10684

The personal fleet ruling to modify the ruleset can be found here:
http://www.swforums.net/forum/showthread.php?s=&threadid=11447

[Sumor Rayial]

Thank you.

I brought over from the other thread what *I* thought were the good ideas from the other set of rules. They are the ones posted in red.

Now that that is done. On with the show.

[Adm Garm Bel Iblis]

The NR has not been counting the GJO shipyard as our own, though I had been assuming that Imp Intel's and TGE's were for the same purpose. I have no idea what they do with the ships they turn out (if anything). Whether they want to stay in the fleet arena is up to them, but that would not affect the NR in terms of shipyard maintenance the way I see it.

We also have boycotted the customer shipyard concept as this appears to be a loophole to allow groups to build using their ally's yards and circumvent the spirit of the rules. At least that's what I interpret Yog's boycott of the "customer yard" to mean.

What I see up there all looks good to me. We only need to decide on that cap. But in order to do that, we need to know how many meters the current TGE fleet would be if you stacked them end to end. Otherwise we're talking downsize, and we already know no one wants that.

Unless you do ... a downsize AND cap would be beautiful.

Your clause about ships and starfighters is contrary to what I thought we just agreed about fighters in the other thread, though. Here's what I propose again (transplanted from the starfighter thread):

All capital ships come with a package of their full compliment of STANDARD starfighters and basic shuttles included. This includes those 1-2 crew ships less than 14 meters.

Blastboats, Gunships, Missile boats, freighters, assault shuttles, and troop transports are separate.

Standard NR fighters would include X, Y, A, and B Wings. If we wish to replace those with more advanced ships or custom tech (X-Wing/adv, C, E, K, W, etc) we have to add to the build time accordingly or build them separate.

IMO, Standard Imp fighters would be TIE fighters, bombers, and interceptors. TIE/Adv, Razors, and whatever else you guys have made are over that. Is that a fair assessment?

[Darth Viscera]

I honestly have no idea what IIHQ is doing with their 1 shipyard, nor do I seek more info regarding it. IIHQ and TGE are about as separate as two groups can be.

[Daegal Murdoch]

In looking over these very quickly, I found one contradiction, not that it is a big one...


A yard takes 40 days to become active. Yards may be moved, this takes them out of production for 20 days


To move a shipyard it takes 10 days, during which time the shipyard that is being moved may construct nothing.

We might want to clarify this just so that there are no misunderstandings.

[Admiral Ackbar]

I have one request, could we make an OOC forum in the shipyards subforum and move this and previous fleet discussion threads there? I think having these threads at one place make them easier to locate and cause a lot less headaches. There are probably quite a few people tired of fleet debates cluttering up the general OOC as well.

Ah, yes... about the fleet rules, they look good for the most part, and there is probably little reason for NR objecting to the draft, however I do have some comments/suggestions:

1. Correct me if I am wrong, but this revision is very similar to the original rules? I seem to remember Pierce Tondry was working on a draft, so there are some sections yet to be included?

2. Some paragraph about resources should be included. I am thinking something similar to what FMH proposed.

3. Micromanagement like building standard fighter escorts for every single capital ship grows highly tedious. Try imagine organising and keeping track of fighter escorts for every single capital ship counting more than thousand, then you should have some idea of the problem. For example, it would be natural to asume that any Victory Star Destroyer has its standard 2 squads of TIE fighters.

I quite like Bel Iblis' suggestion:


All capital ships come with a package of their full compliment of STANDARD starfighters and basic shuttles included. This includes those 1-2 crew ships less than 14 meters

Older ship designs like A, B, X, Y- Wing, TIE- fighter or -bomber and lambda class shuttles is what I would call "basic" or "standard". Any hi-tech designs or additional fighter escort should be built as usual.

4. Bel Iblis interprets me correctly. Lets just say I am not a big fan of Customer Shipyards. Hopefully some sort of reduction, cap or production limit like discussed in the other thread will be imposed.

5. We need to set more specific rules rules for what and how much construction yards can produce.

6. The most important rule is common sense (when there is one)

7. Lets remember while discussing rules; the purpose and ultimate goal is providing fair guidelines for all parties, encouraging realistic roleplay yet allowing creative freedom to the players.

My two Republic Credits. :)

[Sumor Rayial]

Dea: Yeah they were from the two different sets of rules. The old had 10 days, the ones in the other thread posted by SWFans that I transplanted in.

Garm: Yeah I don't know what we are doing about Customer yards. Personally I don't think we need them. We just drop them completely. We can set a cap on what length of ship that can be a personal ship. If anyone wants something more then they have to go through a military yard.

I'd like to see the actual length that TGE has before we decide on a cap and possible downsize.

And yes the fighter part is being revised.


I also agree with Vis. Maybe not Razors or Devils, but if the NR is going to be able to outfit their ships with X-, A-, and B-Wings, then I think we should be allowed at least Defenders and Advanced. Basically I thinking in terms of the old X-wing game. Anything that you could fly there, I think are standard ships. Anything above those would require additional build time.

[Alec Lafeyette]

Yeah but you need to remember that we're far ahead of that time frame and TIE Advanced and TIE Defenders are as common now as TIE Fighters and TIE Interceptors were back then. It's like saying an ISD comes prebuilt with Naboo Starfighters but TIEs and Bombers need to be built seperately.

[Khan Surak]

Okay, I know we're small and annoying and you hate me, but I'd appreciate it if Death Fleet was included in the groups list with shipyards. We have two.

And like in my other post in the Fighter thread, I agree with Sums and Vis that the TIE Defender and Advanced should come standard.

[Adm Garm Bel Iblis]

Well my logic behind it is this ... One of the advantages of the shieldless TIE design, besides speed and maneuverability, is that they can be cranked out the cookie cutter faster. The Defeder and Advanced models were the top of the line.

But...

Yeah you're right. To keep things even, they should be included.

Question... How common are fighters over the shieldless TIEs? Just curious. Are there an even spread of older models with the advanced? I can't speak for the other NR commanders, but I use a wide spread of *-Wing fighters in my fleet makeup, even Y's.

[Sumor Rayial]

Not sure about the rest, but our fleet does include older models. Their not quite as advertised as the Adv or Def versions. The older models are still sometimes good for some things, even if it is just to add more targets to keep gunners from T-ing off on your primary fighters.

Mainly the Conclave feilds the Int version over the others.

[Varlon Konrad]

Squints (Interceptors) and Dupes (Bombers), as stated by Sumor, are the Conclave's primary shieldless TIEs with Advanced, Defenders, and some newer models filling in the rest of the space superiority and light anti-capital ship fighter compliments. Newer ones like the Scimitar Assault Bomber, TIE Devastator (custom TSE/Conclave design), and SE-1 Missile Boat (TSE/Conclave) are thin, but spread out amongst the fleet ranks now and probably won't make up a significant portion in any real length of time.

[Darth Viscera]

It'll take a while to get the total length of TGE's fleet, as I only know the length of maybe 33% of these ships off the top of my head, what with so many designers, some of whom no longer RP.

If I had to hazard a guess, I'd say around 1.3 million meters total. That's about 1,300km. (For capital ships only)

[Adm Garm Bel Iblis]

Rough ballpark then ... 325 KM per shipyard? Good God!

[Varlon Konrad]

1.3 million? Jesus christ. Perhaps two-thirds of that as the cap?

[Charley]

I disagree with the idea to scrap the customer yard. That essentially nullifies the Cizerack's entire angle of RP.

[Sumor Rayial]

I don't think that we are going to scrap them. But I do think that there area going be new rules involving them and their uses. I have a few, but not the time to type them up right now.

[Varlon Konrad]

I had, at one point, suggested a personal fleet cap of five-thousand metres (5 kilometres). This effectively allows a personal fleet to have two Imperator SDs and two five-hundred metre craft, alone a powerful battlegroup. I see this as more than an effective cap for personal fleets. That way, we don't see single people bringing in Super Star Destroyers at a whim or a squadron (3 ships) of Imperators.

[Charley]

I like the cap idea as well, although I think making the max 3000 meters would be better. I still get antsy with the thought of a person having more than one star destroyer in their possession.

[Daegal Murdoch]

I vote for 5,000 meters, personally.

[Varlon Konrad]

5km capped with a VSD or smaller limitation perhaps?

[Darth Viscera]

The smaller and more incapable warship-wise for personal fleets, the better.

[Alec Lafeyette]

They shouldn't even be called fleets. A small organization could hardly manage to run a one kilometer capital ship, let alone one person. If someone wanted a fleet, they could consider joining a faction of their choice.

Besides, if it's for roleplaying purposes only, why would someone need a warship? It's not like it would be acknowledged if they engaged in a fight or attempted a planetary takeover.

[Sumor Rayial]

I'm more likely to agree with Alec.

When I first joined I was one of those who built up a personal fleet. Once I started doing RPs for TSE's fleet I never used them, so basically they were useless.

This is the way I break it down right now. If someone needs a fleet for something then this is how I see it per group:

TSE/TBH/GJO/Any other non-fleet group: A member shouldn't have a need for a fleet here, and if they want to RP fleet then they should join up with the Conclave, TGE, or the NR.

TSO/TGE/NR/Conclave/Fleet groups: If a member wants to do a personal thread and not a group thread that needs a fleet for whatever reason then they should just borrow the ships from their group.

My biggest thing is that personal fleets are being built to incredible sizes but are never used. I think they are really made more into a status symbol then actually being useful.

[Alec Lafeyette]

Exactly.

[Daegal Murdoch]

That's insane. Sums, just because you don't use your personal fleet doesn't mean that everyone else that has worked on one shouldn't be able to use theirs.

I ENJOY having a personal fleet and I don't see why that should be nullified. Have personal fleets caused any major problems that I am not aware of?

Why, just because TSE doesn't have fleets, shouldn't I be allowed to have one? Again, that makes absolutely no IC sense. I am a member of the Conclave also but that doesn't mean that I shouldn't be able to do personal fleets with my TSE character!

It makes absolutely no sense to tell someone how they must roleplay. If my character wants multiple ships and can pay for them then he damn well should be able to have them.

And now to a point by point...


They shouldn't even be called fleets. A small organization could hardly manage to run a one kilometer capital ship, let alone one person. If someone wanted a fleet, they could consider joining a faction of their choice.

If I can pay to buy a Warship then I can pay a crew. Moot point.


Besides, if it's for roleplaying purposes only, why would someone need a warship? It's not like it would be acknowledged if they engaged in a fight or attempted a planetary takeover.

Who are you to tell me or anyone else how they should roleplay.


When I first joined I was one of those who built up a personal fleet. Once I started doing RPs for TSE's fleet I never used them, so basically they were useless.

TSE/TBH/GJO/Any other non-fleet group: A member shouldn't have a need for a fleet here, and if they want to RP fleet then they should join up with the Conclave, TGE, or the NR.

TSO/TGE/NR/Conclave/Fleet groups: If a member wants to do a personal thread and not a group thread that needs a fleet for whatever reason then they should just borrow the ships from their group.

That was your choice not to use them. I should have the CHOICE to use them. I respect you and you are my friend Sums, but you have no right to tell anyone how they MUST roleplay.

[Alec Lafeyette]

I'm not telling anyone how to roleplay, and I don't think he is either. It's common sense. Sure there are always exceptions, but you just don't see people running around with ships like that. If you think about it, not even the Rebel Alliance had 5 km worth of ships at the Battle of Endor. And they were a galactic force with a few dozen planets supporting them.

Now if you're saying that one person - or even a group of people - can manage to recruit, train, and feed a 5000 people skeleton crew on top of paying for ship maintanance, then go ahead. That's only for a single ISD. Small gunships, freighters, starfighters, and even a few dreadnaughts are realistic. Talon Karrade managed it.

[Sumor Rayial]

I'm not. I was stating my opinion and nothing else.

If it's agreed that there is only a cap on them then that's fine with me. I don't think that they are needed.

IC they are unrealistic. I don't care how much money a character or a characters family has I don't think that anyone could afford to keep one VSD let alone anything bigger or multiple ships. Look at the numbers.

Taking in mind that the average salary for a crew member or trooper would probably be around 50 000 Creds a year (That's Average, obviously Capt. makes more than a enlisted) and for pilots approx 35 000 a year


VSD Cost to build: Approx. 20 Million Creds
Cost for crew: 5200x50 000= 260 Million Creds a year
Cost for troopers: 2040x50 000= 102 Million Creds a year
Cost for pilots (88 Fighter (2 per fighter) 12 other assorted: 100x35 000= 3.5 Million Creds a year
Total: 365.5 Million a year on top of the 20 to build the ship

That's not including fuel, food, and other extra's.

Now add in those factors and call it a round 400 Million Creds a year for what I consider the average sized ship in personal fleets. (Most have ISD's and Cruisers, one bigger and one smaller than the VSD) Times that by how ever many VSD's a characters fleet averages out to be.

Personally I find that like saying that Bill Gates can go out, buy, and continually support a fleet equal to that of one of the US's Naval fleets. It's just not likely. Especially since unlike Bill Gates, most RP characters do not have a large continuous source of income that would be needed to continually support the ships of his fleet. And IRL I don't even think that Gates could support a fleet for any length of time, even with Microsoft and every other source of income he has.

I'm not telling anybody to do anything, just asking that people try and think of things more realistically.

[Charley]

I agree...the smaller personal fleets can be made, the better. Even when I suggest 3000 meters, I'm being very diplomatic. If it were up to me, I would say nothing above a kilometer.

[Darth Viscera]

Daegal, you came to TGE asking to purchase an Impstar, and pay double. Someone who can fully staff a fully functional ISD should have a planet with resources to back it up, not just dubious claims of credits.

I suggest that we limit personal orders/fleets to unarmed civilian craft that are, above all else, lacking in offensive capability. That would preclude the necessity for a size cap, as it would be for personal transport/financial gain/other, just not to engage in offensive military operations. Current personal fleet assets (up to ISD's) could be maintained and repaired, but not added to.

[Charley]

Hypothetically, if a non-fleet oriented group...say the Sector Rangers or Prent Inc. wanted to make a military-grade purchase, there should be some leeway entered into that. They are actual organizations with plenty of RPed infrastructure, etc. However, while it might be legal for Sanis to make a purchase of a warship or two...I doubt he ever will.

[Alec Lafeyette]

Groups like that, of course.

[Daegal Murdoch]

Actually, Viscera, I am taking over a planet with which to fund my ships and crew. The thread asking for the Impstar takes place after the one here (http://www.swforums.net/forum/showthread.php?s=&postid=187567). I believe that would satisfy your demands?

[Darth Viscera]

It does.

[Varlon Konrad]

Actually, there has been an Imperator class Star Destroyer in a private citizens personal arsenal before within the SW universe (althought its EU). His name is Booster Terrik. I personally think if we're going to sell Star Destroyers, we use Terrik's as a model of what a civilian-style ISD would be. I will also personally hunt down the downgraded armaments from the novel and post them here if needed. That way, civilians can still get their Imperator SDs, but at a fraction of the strength they were as a military craft.

[Darth Viscera]

Out of all 60 or so original turbolasers, Booster Terrik has 5 left, 3 of which are operational. He had to sell or scavange the rest, to keep the remainder of the ship running, and above all else, the Bazaar deck.

[Alec Lafeyette]

Yeah, he's the only one I can think of though.

[Varlon Konrad]

If I remember right, Visc, he was left with about a quarter of the original armament @.o Not that little.

[Darth Viscera]

His maintenance capacity wasn't all that great, even with those 200 Verpine techs he hired for 7 months. I remember 3 being the number of operational turbolasers, with 2 more that were incapable of operation. That was probably the Zahn Duology, and I remember him telling Corran that last time he visited there had been ten active turbolasers. Nowhere near a quarter. It was turned into a floating bazaar-type ship, remember? It was stripped of practically all its weaponry due to NR regulations for civilian ships.

[Varlon Konrad]

Hm. Maybe I'm remembering a bit wrong then. I'll have to go look it up to be sure, knowing my horrable memory.