Possible Solution to Customer Yard Fleet Issues

[Daegal Murdoch]

I propose the following as a solution to the customer yard issues that have arisen:

1) All groups lose their customer yard and gain another military yard.

2) Personal ships built at military yards are permitted in fleet roleplay.

3) All ships built in the customer yard after 6/19/01 are subject to #2.

4) No orders greater than 5km for personal fleets.


I have proposed this to both TGE and TSE and neither rejected it. I felt that I would open it up to see others opinions and to see if I could get the current rule changed to this.

[Varlon Konrad]

To be honest, I never opened my mouth because it wasn't under public eyes. I have the following grievence with it, actually


A gurantee that TSE will construct no personal order of greater than 5km, contingent on TGE's reciprication.
I'd personally make the five kilometre limit effective to all parties, or else someone could hand over a Super Star Destroyer to a personal fleet. Also, why not just make personal fleets capped off at 5 klicks? That's three Imperator Star Destroyers (at 1.6 km) and then a 200 m cruiser, or you go smaller and have a much larger personal fleet.

[Jehova Eaven]

In other words, get rid of Customer yards? I don't get it, that would completely remove an entire section of the fleet rules.

[Daegal Murdoch]

I'd personally make the five kilometre limit effective to all parties, or else someone could hand over a Super Star Destroyer to a personal fleet.
Done.


Also, why not just make personal fleets capped off at 5 klicks? That's three Imperator Star Destroyers (at 1.6 km) and then a 200 m cruiser, or you go smaller and have a much larger personal fleet.
I thought about proposing this, but then decided against it. Some people's characters are very fleet oriented. I thought that the order size limited it enough.


In other words, get rid of Customer yards? I don't get it, that would completely remove an entire section of the fleet rules.

Yes. It would allow personal fleets to be used to defend a character's group (which makes perfect sense IC), and it would also limit a character's personal fleet due to the maximum order cap.

[Darth Vader]

I wholeheartedly disapprove of such a proposition.

Eradicating customer yards would destroy at least one of the major fleet factions roleplays here.

[Daegal Murdoch]

Eradicating customer yards would destroy at least one of the major fleet factions roleplays here.

How so? Personal people would still be able to get ships, just from a military yard instead of a customer one. It's not like the groups are going to lose space by selling to an individual, they are getting an additional military yard. Can you please elaborate more? :(

Edit: And also, I will be going out for the night in about 5 mins, so I won't be able to respond again, sorry LL.

[Darth Viscera]

Here's the counter-proposal that I was going to reply with several days ago. I withheld it until this topic was in the open:



1) All groups lose their customer yard and gain another military yard.

No problems there.



2) Personal ships built at military yards are permitted in fleet roleplay.


No problems there.



3) All ships built in the customer yard are effected retroactively by #2.


In other words, all craft ever produced at TSE now become eligable to fight in the war, and they mainly produced capital ships as I recall...hundreds of them.



4) A gurantee that TSE will construct no personal order of greater than 5km, contingent on TGE's reciprication.


Please recall that even ships above 2km (save for the SSD, which applies for the 30 day rule), are disallowed from construction. The exception is the implementation of the 90 day rule.

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My offer is that you modify sections 3-4 as per the following:

3) All ships built in the customer yard after 6/19/01 are subject to #2.

4) A guarantee that TSE will allow no personal fleet to consist of ships whose combined lengths equal greater than 5km. A personal fleet can be up to 5km of ships, no more. a) In addition, as per the fleet rules, no single ship belonging to a personal fleet may exceed 2km in length. TGE will reciprocate.

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[Darth Viscera]

We could just give TCP and any other neutral groups exclusive rights to have a customer yard.

[Darth Vader]

Indeed, since 99% of TCP's builds are for other clients, and not for themselves.

[Darth Viscera]

Word to yo' momma!

[Jeseth Cloak]

TO/TVO (when we have the time to arrange for it) will be mainly building for other groups as well. That would put us at a huge disadvantage.

...you could go through all that trouble, or you could just leave the rules as they are. If you can find a way to get around killing your enemies when they're down and out, can't you also find a way to get around using personal fleets in group fleet RPs?

I would be in favor of every group losing a customer yard and gaining a military yard, allowing personal fleets to be built as they have always been built, but from within the group's military yards. This would ensure that groups such as TCP and TVO would not take any economic damage as a result.

I am not in favor of this rule affecting every ship ever built in customer yards retroactively.

[Jeseth Cloak]

For anyone entering this discussion late, I believe this is a continuance of this thread: http://www.swforums.net/forum/showthread.php?s=&threadid=11392

[Daegal Murdoch]

3) All ships built in the customer yard after 6/19/01 are subject to #2.

4) A guarantee that TSE will allow no personal fleet to consist of ships whose combined lengths equal greater than 5km. A personal fleet can be up to 5km of ships, no more. a) In addition, as per the fleet rules, no single ship belonging to a personal fleet may exceed 2km in length. TGE will reciprocate.

This sounds pretty good, however I would like to suggest a couple slight changes to number 4.


4) No personal fleet to consist of ships whose combined lengths equal greater than 5km will be allowed by any group. A personal fleet can be up to 5km of ships, no more. a) In addition, as per the fleet rules, no single ship belonging to a personal fleet may exceed 2km in length. TGE will reciprocate. b) Personal fleets already over 5km in length will not be required to downsize. Their owners cannot build any additional ships unless they destroy or disown enough ships that they fall under the 5km rule.

I think that if only TGE and TSE agree to the 5km rule on personal fleets, that would put us both at a disadvantage, so I have modified that part to read all groups. In subpoint b, I am grandfathering existing fleets so that owners can keep them, but if they keep them they can never build them again.

And I am editing my original post and adding #3.

[Jubei SaDherat Vader]

So why even convert the yards at all? If we can still build orders for others, why add duality of purpose to that yard, and essentially give factions even more shipyards?

I remember particuarly venomous spats from TSE regarding TGE's build rates, and where they put caps on military yards, and other things.

Are you saying you want to undo all those regulations, and repeat the whole damn thing?

I'm still not seeing any inherent purpose in any of this.

[Daegal Murdoch]

I'm still not seeing any inherent purpose in any of this.

In a nutshell, it makes perfect IC sense for a member of any group to defend that group by any means necessary, including using personal ships. I, as well as others obviously do, that this solves that problem IC, as well as not messing stuff up ooc.

[Jubei SaDherat Vader]

It makes no sense to effectively remove a lot of rulings that we had to work hard to arrive at in the first place. Sure, you'll get what you want and be happy, but what happens in 2 months, when TSE once again complains of the large numbers of TGE ships? We capped those military yards to keep that stupid argument at bay.

I'd rather completely eliminate the customer yard rather than convert it to a military yard. You could still do customer builds if you like, and no increased proliferation.

But as it stands...no, I'm not going to put my feet into any agreement like what is currently on the dockett. Its essentially sweeping dirt under the rug, and it'll fester into nastier blowups later.

But if you go through with it anyways...thats well and good. Just know that when people complain about proliferation, I'm going to jam a spoon up somebody's urethra, and jiggle.

[Jeseth Cloak]

In a nutshell, it makes perfect IC sense for a member of any group to defend that group by any means necessary, including using personal ships.It also makes A LOT of sense to kill off your enemies when you have the chance. Why can you follow the "don't kill another's character" rule, but not this one? I personally would like to see a Mod or Admin make some kind of ruling on this discussion. If anything, just change the rule to "personal ships can not be used in battle without the consent of the opposing group." That would work about as well as the "don't kill without permission" rule that applies for characters.

[Jubei SaDherat Vader]

Agreed. That would make a lot more sense in all of it.

[TheHolo.Net]

"personal ships can not be used in battle without the consent of the opposing group."

I feel the addition of a single line to the old fleet rules is more fitting and practical than adding a number of amendments, that can very well be exploited and or may give weight to one or more sides of the spectrum while talking away from others.

[Jehova Eaven]

Yeah that sounds good. I have no problem with that one line.

[Varlon Konrad]

I'm willing to accept that ammendment hands down, since it wouldn't really be inquired about except in cases where you've got two-to-one or even three-to-one odds going.

[Darth Viscera]

"personal ships can not be used in battle without the consent of the opposing group."

Sounds good.

[Daegal Murdoch]

Agreed.

[Jubei SaDherat Vader]

We've just danced the 2-step for 10 hours and moved 10 feet.

But at least we got there (whew)

[Moltar]

o_O


What crack are you smoking?


Personal ships not needed?

Then I can't pilot the Phantom Cruser into the thread?


Can I even build one?

I'd rather see people in the fight use their personal ships. Since they are personal ships they really can't be destroyed, but at the same time they can be boarded, taken over, ect..

I guess no one remembers the Falcon.....