LOTR is what TPM should have been

[Dutchy]

At least, that's what I conclude from reading a bunch of reviews.

The reations are the kinda reactions I'd expected for TPM. The anticipation for LOTR was also huge, but this time it seems to live up to it. The audience loved TPM, but it lacked the utter praise that LOTR's receiving now.

I haven't seen LOTR yet, so I can't decide for myself yet, but judging from the overall response the appreciation exceeds TPM's.

It's been a long time since I've read this much praise about a movie.

[Marcus Telcontar]

Well said. Hopefully, when I get to see LOTR after Christmas I'll be able to add to the near universal praise. It's interesting just HOW universal the praise has been, with even the low lights.... well they dont seem to be all that low.

I cant wait.

The other thing about TPM is the status it eventually has got, rightly or wrongly, of being well below the mark. I dont think that is wrong, I agree. TPM could and I think should have been a lot better.

I'm going to watch this thread with a great deal of interest

[JonathanLB]

Couldn't have been long before we get a thread like this, should have figured.

TPM was everything TPM should have been, and that is to say a far superior film to LOTR, even though I LOVED LOTR.

I think Fellowship of the Ring is the best film of the year, or second at worst. I still love AI, so I have to see LOTR again to be sure, but I am pretty sure. It is the best pure fantasy movie ever made (and what competition does it have? Willow? Um, not really). LOTR is tops.

Still, Gladiator was a much better film than LOTR, as was The Matrix, Alien, Blade Runner, The Game, The Truman Show, many films I can name. LOTR is not that close to a perfect rating. I say it is a 97 probably. AI is a 96 or 97 probably, Memento a 95 I think.

I don't like how I see Memento, say it is the best, see AI and say it is better, then see LOTR and say it is better again. I hope I don't just do that because it is the newest film. I should get them all on DVD and see them so I can compare, but for now that is how it stands. I was very reluctant to push AI over Memento, and again very reluctant now to say LOTR is better than AI. So I'll see LOTR again and then maybe decide.

The critics clearly liked LOTR about ten times as much as they liked TPM, that is obvious if you haven't been living under a rock lately.

The more popular film is still TPM, though, and TPM will prove to have better staying power I would imagine also. If not, LOTR is going to make $325 million or so anyway, hehe.

LOTR, in film, will never compete with Star Wars. It is not the next Star Wars, it is not the next classic movie series, it is just going to be a great, really awesome trilogy of films. Maybe even one of the better trilogies around, but The Matrix, at least the first one, was definitely a better movie. I was not totally awestruck by LOTR as I was with Matrix. I saw LOTR expecting a great movie, I got a great movie that was quite entertaining, not perfect, but as close as a movie has gotten this year probably. I saw Matrix and that was "perfection" (of course, no movie really achieves this, and furthermore no non-Star Wars movie is truly the same type of nearly perfect as a SW film, hehe). It blew me and everyone else away. LOTR is not that type of movie, yet it had better reviews. Critics are a fickle bunch. I totally agree with them on LOTR, they are right to call it a great film, one of the best of the year, but they were wrong to say TPM wasn't, some were wrong to say Matrix wasn't that great, the list goes on. These are the same people who unanimously trashed Patch Adams, so they are not trustworthy in my opinion.

I only care about audiences, to paraphrase what Lucas said. Audiences obviously love LOTR too, as they loved Matrix and TPM, but the $$$ and tickets matter most. Beyond that, what I think matters more than anything else :)

Darth23 likes Final Fantasy despite the fact it had horrid reviews, a poor box office, and nearly nobody likes it, but that is the beauty, what he thinks is the only true thing that matters about that movie when he watches it. True with all art. I can look at a piece of art and see a masterpiece while someone else just is blinded by their personal experiences or their prejudices and not like it, while in another case I cannot see what it is about something that someone else likes, but it is there for them.

In conclusion, TPM is the best movie ever, LOTR isn't. :D

[Dutchy]

Originally posted by JonathanLB
Couldn't have been long before we get a thread like this, should have figured.

Or a "Where is Jonathan?"-thread, which I was actually close to opening. :)


LOTR, in film, will never compete with Star Wars. It is not the next Star Wars, it is not the next classic movie series, it is just going to be a great, really awesome trilogy of films.

True, Star Wars is a classic indeed. But that's not the point, the point is that TPM wasn't recognized as being on par with the original triology, where LOTR is getting the kinda reactions that TPM would have had if it was.


I only care about audiences, to paraphrase what Lucas said. Audiences obviously love LOTR too, as they loved Matrix and TPM, but the $$$ and tickets matter most.

TPM didn't make the most $$$, nor did it sell the most tickets, so TPM is not the best movie ever made then?

[Marcus Telcontar]

The harshest critcis of LOTR are the fans. And they seem to love it, if the reviews from theonering.net are anything to go by. Couple of thousand there, almost all glowing. Word of mouth for this moive should be incredible.

I have not spoken to ANY Star Wars fans that honestly thought TPM was better than FOTR. Most that I have grilled (Cause I want to so badly know all I can about FOTR, I'm one of the geek fanboys of LOTR) and not one thinks TPM even gets close. It seems people here think the same. I think it's highly debateable that TPM will end up a classic and it seems to me it never will be. Star Wars is a classic and your seeing another classic and maybe a real cult film now. The fact is, dedicated SW fans dont like TPm for various reasons. Now, I know some Tolkein fans will hate the movie for it's liberties (or seeming ones) but it is already clear they are in a vast, vasy minority. The liberties are also easily defendable and even quite logical.

OTOH, Jar Jar isnt if your objective (And I am a Jar Jar fan, I will make no excuse for that). Nor is the rather silly humour or the rather stale dialogue. Or Midichloridians.

And since WHEN does massive ticket sales and revenue mean its good???? It that is true, then Titanic must have been awesome. I bet you dont think that seriously, do you Jonathon? Revenue is NOT an indicator of a good film. It just means it appeals to the masses. Appeal does not mean good or quality.

But then I am not to be trusted, cause I thought Patch Adams sucked. Or maybe you should rephrase what you said there if this quote you said...



Darth23 likes Final Fantasy despite the fact it had horrid reviews, a poor box office, and nearly nobody likes it, but that is the beauty, what he thinks is the only true thing that matters about that movie when he watches it. True with all art. I can look at a piece of art and see a masterpiece while someone else just is blinded by their personal experiences or their prejudices and not like it, while in another case I cannot see what it is about something that someone else likes, but it is there for them.


For another example, I dont like Citizen Kane. Yet I know just how good it is and I will admit it, even if I dont like it. That's how it should work. Saying it is bad cause I dont like it is not right. It IS a damn good movie, personal opinion aside. Now, I actually dont mind TPM but I dont think TPM by any measure is a classic or great. And I think it's being shown up badly by FOTR, or at least that is what I see.

I see that AOTC BETTER measure up to expectations now. LOTR may well be in the postion to finish the neutering of the Prequels in the eyes of the fans. If EPII is not up to scratch, it could fail cause it WILL be compared to FOTR.

And by the sounds of it, that is not something that will be easy to stand up to.

[darth_mcbain]

I think a large part of it just has to do with expectations. There really were no LOTR films to speak of prior to these. I think there was a pretty lame animated attempt at making them, but other than that, not much. So essentially, people are seeing something entirely brand new with FOTR. There are no film expectations to live up to, so fans will be much more apt to be pleased with what they get. Of course there are the expectations based on what you've read, but that is different than having an expectation based on previous films.

Now Star Wars, on the other hand, has HUGE shoes to fill with the previous movies. SW fans around the world have their own ideas as to what the movies should be. So when one little detail doesn't match what they think should happen, they complain or say "The movie could have been better." With TPM, the years of anticipation caused so much hype that there was almost no way that they could have lived up to the expectations that were generated. So people are quick to say "It wasn't all I hoped it would be", but they don't stop to realize that maybe their hopes were set unrealistically high.

[Jedi Master Carr]

To me there is no comparison, it is like comparing Apples with Oranges. Really I liked both films a lot and I would say TPM and FOTR are the two best films I have seen in the last 5 years but beyond that I don't try to compare them in the same way that I don't try to compare or rate Back to the Future (another favorite of mine) with any of the Star Wars movies, to me it is just impossible to do. Now I think the FOTR is a great film and I really loved it and it wouldn't bother me if it made more than TPM because I like both of them equally. But I agree with Darth Mcbain about the expectations, for the TPM they were the highest for any film in history. For LOTR it was the same thing except for the fans but the general public knew nothing about it for the most part so there was a huge expectations, plus look at all the talk shows Access Hollywood, ET etc, they did not cover it like TPM so there was a lot less hype and that helped overall.

[Nupraptor]

I saw a single bad review of FOTR... and the person spent 3 paragraphs complaining about how all the characters are "too hairy". Needless to say, I didn't take him too seriously.

I'll admit that I've come to like TPM a *little* more with time. But it was still a huge letdown. I felt disappointed walking out of the theater. Not the case with FOTR. This, if nothing else, made FOTR a far, far superiour movie in my mind.

[Doc Milo]

To add on to what Darth McBain has said about expectations:

The expectations for TPM and FOTR are a bit different. For FOTR, the expectations were high, and people were curious as to how faithful the movie would be to the novel (I thought, for the most part, it was very very faithful, a masterful job of putting the novel on film. In fact, the film actually captured images my own imagination supplied when reading the novel, which is where film adaptations oftentimes fail.)

For TPM, the expectations were high, but there was no frame of reference. The story was unknown, so the expectations didn't just deal with "how faithful will it be to the novels" but it had to compete with the imaginations of millions upon millions of fans, each of whom, I'm sure, had their own ideas on what caused the fall of the Republic, the Jedi Purge, and the rise of Empire. With millions upon millions of separate ideas on how these things happen, it is likely that TPM was going to disappoint more than a few -- because it could not possibly match that type of expectation.

For FOTR, the expectation was more easy to meet, because there was a blueprint of that expectation right there in print. All they had to do was the best they could to match the novel, and they could reasonably meet that expectation. And Peter Jackson apparently took the time and made the effort to do just that.

[Nupraptor]

You can rationalize it all you want. But, in my mind, TPM disappointed and FOTR did not. So, in my mind, FOTR was the better movie.

[Marcus Telcontar]

Expectations for FOTR were easier to meet?????????


Your not a rabid Tolkein fan are you? It may not be expectations, but it's demands - the movie had to convey what the book was, the characters the situations accuratly. It was thought LOTR was unfilmable. And if it was bad, there were thousands of rabid Tolkein fans ready to execute Jackson.

There is a certain level the movie HAD to achieve in the minds of the fanboys and geeks. Has it done so? Hmmm, I cant judge for myself yet. But considering the almost universal praise, you got to think something was done right. Saying FOTR had lower expectations to meet is just completely wrong. If anytrhing, it had to reach a level that frankly is beyond most directors. And until now, no one thought Jackson was capable either.

Isn't nice to see that the fanboys were wrong?

The other point is that we KNOW Lucas is capable on doing something wonderful, we have seen ot before. That is what we were expecting, cause we have seen it before. We KNEW he could deliver. Well, he didn't. And that is why TPM leaves a bad taste in the mouth. It could and should have been better and could have been so easily.

[Darth23]

"Darth23 likes Final Fantasy despite the fact it had horrid reviews, a poor box office, and nearly nobody likes it, but that is the beauty, what he thinks is the only true thing that matters about that movie when he watches it. True with all art. I can look at a piece of art and see a masterpiece while someone else just is blinded by their personal experiences or their prejudices and not like it, while in another case I cannot see what it is about something that someone else likes, but it is there for them. "


NO NO NO NO NO!!!!!

It's not what it looked like! It was the Story!

Screw the visuals!

[Nupraptor]

Darth23: It finally bugged me enough - I auto-leveled your avatar. :p

[Lilaena De'Ville]

FotR had huge expectations to live up to. TPM had huge expectations to live up to as well. The fan base for TPM was also bigger than that for FotR, as far as getting the general public interested in coming out to see it.

If its money that matters, then we'll just have to wait and see which movie comes out on top. IMHO The Phantom Menace pales in comparison to the Fellowship of the Ring. And I can't even begin to list my Favorite Movie of All Time, because I haven't got one. I like too many movies to say THIS ONE IS THE BEST!

But FotR is one of the best. I'd say it'll end up tied with quite a few. And if we're going on trilogies, then we also have to wait for Matrix 2 to come out, as it might suck royally. I mean, hey, you never know. But will The Two Towers suck royally? They shot all three movies straight though! All we have to expect from TTT is more of the same great moviemaking we got in FotR. And I, for one, cannot wait.

[JonathanLB]

The higher grossing movie is not the better film nor did I say that. Gross and ticket sales do make a difference for how popular a film is obviously. Titanic was one of the most popular films ever made in theaters, though I think its popularity faded quickly. That is really another argument, but I am referring to less than expected DVD sales, poor TV ratings, and a general lack of interest in the movie after its theatrical run. Nonetheless, nobody can take away one of the most amazing runs in history and an Oscar campaign to end all...

"I have not spoken to ANY Star Wars fans that honestly thought TPM was better than FOTR."

ROFL! I have not talked to a real Star Wars fan who would even compare LOTR to any Star Wars film. TPM is a WAAAAY better film. To say that LOTR is even close is an utter insult to Lucas, to ILM, to the actors in TPM, and to everyone else who takes film seriously and to Star Wars fans in general.

LOTR was a great movie, but it is not even CLOSE to as good as The Matrix or Gladiator, and neither of those films were really close to being as good as TPM or the other Star Wars movies either. All Star Wars films are classics by virtue of the fact they are Star Wars films. It is a no-brainer. ROTJ had way worse reviews than TPM when it came out and everyone calls ROTJ a classic. In fact, that is not debtable, it IS a classic. The entire trilogy is "The Classic Trilogy," The Bible of Film. They are all undisputed classics and TPM was a film easily able to hold its own with the other SW films, so I cannot wait until the second classic trilogy is completed and released. AOTC is going to blow TPM away at the box office, thanks to amazingly high ticket prices lately.

LOTR is beating TPM all over as you see so far?! What planet are you on buddy? LOTR made $18 million on its opening Wednesday with nearly 15% higher ticket prices! Not to mention there were more adult admissions so that boosts prices and lowers ticket counts even further. TPM made it to $28 million nearly THREE YEARS AGO with 300 fewer theaters and many fewer screens too, compensating for the time difference between the films.

Check this: LOTR averaged $5,000 or so on Wed. per theater, while TPM averaged nearly $10,000. Talk about no comparison.

TPM kicked LOTR's butt all over the place and TPM is not even one of the most impressive openers now after this year because of the rising theater counts and ticket prices. Potter, Mummy Returns, POTA, many films have relatively easily beat at least a few TPM opening records. LOTR is no threat to any of those films with regard to its opening.

I think LOTR will have very substantial staying power. The problem is these IDIOTS like Stacey, my best friend's sort of girlfriend, who is so idiotic she doesn't like LOTR because "it is confusing and there are weird creatures." GOD DANG I HATE DUMB BLONDES! I agree that LOTR is one of the best movies in the last five years, it is top ten anyway, and it is the best this year. I am NOT an LOTR basher, that film rocked. I am going to go add $15 to its box office take when I see it two more times because it was that good that I could sit through it easily three times. It is a wonderful film. It just isn't as good as TPM, that is all.

I hate being in the position of separating two films like this that I love. It was the same with The Matrix.

Look, I LOVE The Matrix, it is in my top 5 non-SW films EVER, so obviously that film is great to me. I have seen it probably ten times, 3 in theaters and definitely 7 on DVD. Once when it came out, once with Bryan, once with Sean, another few times with Bryan over the next year, again at a party, definitely seven or more times. But look, the effects in Matrix are ABSOLUTELY CHILDS PLAY compared to TPM! I love Matrix, and I will defend it versus any other film basically and I stand up for it whenever someone says something stupid (which is VERY infrequently!), but the film's effects are pathetic when compared to TPM, which has not only four times more effects but superior visuals, techniques, and ground-breaking, revolutionary breakthroughs in technology too.

The same is true here with LOTR. It is a great film, but compared to The Matrix, even, it is pales in comparison. It's not as thought provoking, has much less "Wow" factor than Matrix, the plot in LOTR is probably stronger than Matrix overall (I mean LOTR as a whole, all three films), but that is obviously unfair as LOTR is the greatest book probably of the 20th century. Tolkien is a genius. Point here, though, is the filmmaking. The script for Matrix is much better. It is more quotable and the film is superior in most ways to LOTR. The music is comparable at least (LOTR lacked a very powerful score I thought, but it was enjoyable), the acting is just as good in The Matrix, the cinematography is more revolutionary and impressive, the effects are equal at least, the movie is much more concise, more thought provoking.

Obviously when you compare TPM to LOTR, it is much more of a slaughter.

TPM has a better story, it has better characters and a stronger protagonist, whether that is Qui Gon or Anakin or Obi-Wan, all are stronger than Frodo, the effects are ten times superior, the cinematography is far better, not just a bit better as with The Matrix, the dialogue is just way, way better, and the film is part of a much more epic saga and story than even LOTR.

Nothing else can outduel LOTR besides Star Wars as far as being epic, though. I think the LOTR story is one of the best in the last century, even, but Star Wars is simply superior. It is much more archetypical (which is hard to do -- LOTR is full of this too), it has far more complicated characters and villains (Vader is hardly good, but he is not truly evil either), and the story just flows better with more interesting locales and a greater scope than anything like LOTR can provide. Albeit, that is like saying $50 billion is more than $25 billion. They are both far too big of numbers to bother arguing about, i.e. LOTR is still a kickbutt movie only outdone in total scope by the Star Wars Saga.

Gee, yeah I really think AOTC is make or break time, I mean TPM sucked so hard that it pleased 94% of the people who saw it, made $431 million here, 2nd highest grossing movie ever worldwide, and TFN readers (who are very negative most of the time I think) actually voted TPM above BOTH ANH and ROTJ. In other words, according to popular opinion TPM is the 2nd best Star Wars film behind only ESB. I think that is darn good, so if you expected more, well, I sure hope you like AOTC. See you in line. If not, your loss, sucks to be you.

LOTR is averaging an A- at CinemaScore, same as TPM, so there is no separation there, but not to mention that far more people saw TPM and pleasing such a vast array of them is hard. I realize CinemaScore only asks the opening day crowds, which is even more in favor of LOTR there because the die-hard SW fans were much harder to satisfy. I find that people in the general public liked TPM much more than many of the supposed die-hard fans who all were there opening day.

Oh well, no matter, LOTR is not making any $431 million, sorry, not unless nothing else good comes out for like four months, which is the primary reason for Titanic's massive gross. With some competition, Titanic wouldn't have been THAT freaky, it would have made like $400 million max, but it became a freak of nature by managing somehow to avoid any competition for four months. Truly incredible. I wish AOTC could have gotten that lucky but the strikes never went through, which really made me mad. I was hoping they did strike. I'm not seeing anything else besides AOTC during the summer of 2002 anyway, or at least not more than a few films, so it wouldn't have bothered me.

I hope LOTR makes a solid $250 million. I would like to see it do well and climb high and it would be great for the trilogy to take in like $700 to $800 million total North American gross.

I hope they give LOTR best picture too, because I don't want to see some other retarded little independent film win an Oscar. Let's extend the streak of great best picture winners to two, Gladiator and now LOTR. That'd be super tight. Of course, if they gave it to Vanilla Sky or AI or Memento I would be very happy, but will that happen? No. AI has not even a snowball's chance in hell of best picture, nor does Vanilla Sky have any chance. Memento has about a 1 in 1000 chance at best. LOTR is hot, it's going in with momentum, so it could have a solid chance...

I don't want to respond to any, "LOTR is this, LOTR has this, it is better because, blah blah blah." Save your words. I got up early to see the film at the first showing and I loved it, I am seeing it again two times soon, I spent a half an hour today in a literal word (AIM) fight with my best friend's girlfriend because she said LOTR is a "silly" movie and it is "confusing." Of course, she is so stupid she didn't like The Matrix at all, fell asleep during The One, calls the Star Wars movies "silly" too, which I found VERY insulting so we got into a major argument there, and it is obvious she has terrible taste in film. I don't care what she likes, but I'd appreciate it if people do not call the greatest films around, like LOTR, Star Wars, and The Matrix, "silly films." That is incredibly insulting to my taste and intelligence as well as everyone else who appreciates good film.

She says LOTR is not her "type of movie," and I said, "What the heck type is that? Great movies? You don't like that type?" She is like, "No the whole fantasy and sci-fi nonsense, they are silly." Ok airhead, actually sci-fi and fantasy are greatest two genres around with THE MOST potential for new material because the realm of both expands infinitely far just as your imagination. Comedy is limited to the same situations more or less over and over, parodies, sex comedy, situational comedy, it has all been done before. That's why you can say, "So and so film is a lot like so and so film," but you can see LOTR and say, "No, this film is totally original and it was the pioneer of modern fantasy stories." Star Wars too, same thing, you have all kinds of sites you would never see on earth and couldn't ever film, which is why sci-fi is truly the best along with fantasy.

More than just that, though, how can you rule out an entire genre or two of film? Sure I do not like chick flicks as much as I like my action movies, but Clueless was a classic film! It was well made, it was just a pure classic and I did enjoy it. I still like lots of supposed chick flicks, even though I might not admit it, hehe, like Legally Blonde was quite funny I thought, so I am guilty of liking that too, haha. You have to see all types of movies and appreciate the best in each genre. I love great westerns, always watched them when I was a kid, and I like the newer ones too like Tombstone. I liked The Newton Boys, but critics trashed it. I like foreign films if they are good (Hong Kong action films, Jean de Florette, etc. The good stuff). I love comedies. I love great drama films. Every genre has greatness to offer, so how could anyone rule out an entire genre of film?

Every genre has lousy films and probably every one of them has a majority of movies that simply are lousy or barely average. Most action movies are fairly plotless and have bad dialogue, but I love action movies because the best of them, like The Rock and The Killer and Crouching Tiger, Hidden Dragon (more adventure and romance, I realize), are great films. Most sci-fi films are cheasy and stupid, of course. But the best of them are absolute masterpieces like the Star Wars films, Dark City, Blade Runner, The Matrix, Terminator 2, etc. Most horror films are total jokes and more funny than scary, but the best of them are also masterpieces, The Exorcist, Salem's Lot, even newer films like Jeepers Creepers I thought was quite good (ok the name is a bit stupid). Most romance movies are totally stupid, have Hollywood endings, and make me want to gag. But again, the best of them are great films and well worth seeing. This is obviously true of every genre just as you can say most people, with regard to success in life, are average, below average, or barely above average. Very few are truly great or even have the chance to be.

The same as a film with a $10,000 budget is less likely to be a great movie (low budgets make it hard, I would know from experience here too, we have only hundreds to work with -- my friends and I), a person from a lower class household is not as easily going to be able to climb the social pyramid to success and greatness.

So to say that an entire genre of movies is invalid and call them silly, to me, is absolutely insulting and I cannot take anyone seriously who says that. I told my best friend he can deal with her, hang out with her, do whatever he wants with her -- not my business. Just don't invite me over when she is there, don't tell me what is new with her, and don't bother me with someone so ignorant and stupid. Ugg, never did like her after many other things she has said and the way she acts, but that is the final straw. I like all of his other friends, including his other friend who is a girl, Rachel, but this Stacey can kiss my butt. LOTR silly and confusing, grow a brain sweetheart. LOTR is frickin' awesome.

[Dutchy]

Jonathan, I think I've never seen anyone defending something so strongly as you defend Star Wars, and TPM in particular. That's your choice, I always read anything you write.

I'm getting tired though of you stating everything as FACTS. A lot of the stuff you write is just your opinion, no more, no less. Please don't state them as facts. You have a way with generalizing things.

Different people can have different opinions. That's a fact. :)

Oh, and LOTR isn't my type of movie either. I can see its technical supermacy, its stunning visuals, but the story doesn't appeal to me.

[Darth23]

"Darth23: It finally bugged me enough - I auto-leveled your avatar"

Um, auto who?

[JMK]

I believe he's another photoshop junkie. He's adjusting the brightness/contrast of your avatar.
He's right, it is rather flat. :D

[Jedi Master Carr]

Personally, I liked both TPM and LOTR equally, neither film disapointed me and I regard both of them as great films that I love. Now this is just my opinion. Also I think there is another factor in all of this LOTR has very little hype compared to TPM. The TPM was everywhere a month before it came, all LOTR had was those stupid BK ads which at least won't help its cause any. Also every magazine talked about it for ever much like Harry Potter, IMO which really is more of hype machine than LOTR. I also still think expectations were higher, when I first heard about the LOTR movies I wasn't sure what to expect and I know of a lot of fans who thought it was going to fail for various reasons, read the thread about LOTR fans and you will see what I mean, so I think expectations were a lot lower as also can be seen from the hype. There was no big action figure deal, very few endorsments etc, and very little press until recently. The press until the last two weeks has been talking about Harry Potter and its chances of unseating Titantic, LOTR was ignored as I said several times. Nobody even thought the movie was going to be big, most concieded that HP would win in then, now I think they have changed their tune slightly but still they are not covering it like HP or TPM for that matter.

[Darth23]

Yeah, after the London premiere happened I could barely find any coverage of it. I didn't even realize there was a NYC and an LA premiere until Yahoo posted some pics.

The positive reviews have cause the most buzz, plus they had behind the scenes specials on several tv stations, and the normal tv talk show circuits, but not much else.


But then, LOTF isn't Star Wars, so local news shows arent going to devote air time to showing the latest trailer. :p

[Nupraptor]

Johnathan: That's quite a lengthy reply. I'm not claiming that FOTR is, de facto, the better of the two movies. I'm saying that I liked it more. My opinion. And nothing is going to change my mind about that.

Darth23: You might prefer to use this as your avatar instead -
http://www.swforums.net/forum/attachment.php?s=&postid=174483

[Darth Turbogeek]

But then, LOTR isn't Star Wars


Ahh, but it COULD be. I cant really comment on that yet as I havent seen LOTR, but I will when it's released in TWO DAYS!!!! here.

[Jedi Master Carr]

But they are different, LOTR is a pure fanasty that deals with a Ring and Star Wars is a scifi-fantasy dealing with Anakin's fall to the dark side. Sure there are some similarities: the hero's journey, the corruption of power, similar characterstics between the ring and the dark side but thats about it. Really LOTR is as much like SW as The Time Machine is like Back to the Future, they are completely two different films and they should be because that is they way they were meant to be.

[Darth23]

Lord of the Rings is the Thesis

Star Trek is the Antithesis

Star Wars is the Synthesis. :D


I certainly hope that Star Wars will never be LOTR. Just like I hope that The Matrix wil never be The Godfather.

[Doc Milo]

Originally posted by Marcus Q'Dunn
Expectations for FOTR were easier to meet?????????

I didn't say the expectations were easier to meet for FOTR -- well, I said those words, but their meaning was quite different in context of the whole statement I did make. Instead of asking you to re-read it for the entire context, I guess I'll repeat myself, eventually, in the rest of my response...


Your not a rabid Tolkein fan are you? It may not be expectations, but it's demands - the movie had to convey what the book was, the characters the situations accuratly. It was thought LOTR was unfilmable. And if it was bad, there were thousands of rabid Tolkein fans ready to execute Jackson.

Okay, this is correct. And I like how you differentiate between "expectations" and "demands." There is a huge difference, I believe.


There is a certain level the movie HAD to achieve in the minds of the fanboys and geeks. Has it done so? Hmmm, I cant judge for myself yet. But considering the almost universal praise, you got to think something was done right.

I believe it did do something right. Although there will be the die-hard of die-hards that will complain at every last little detail either changed or cut from the final cut of the movie, I think this is a film that probably will meet the demands of most every LotR fan. But again, that's demands and not expectations we're talking about.

The difference is in mentality. Star Wars fans, when it was announced that GL was going ahead with the prequels, didn't really have this "these films better not suck" attitude. They just expected the films not to suck. They didn't demand it. That is, until after TPM came out and some were disappointed. Now you hear a vocal minority of SW fans demanding all sorts of things for the remaining episodes and going so far as to start all these petitions etc...

GL didn't have to meet demands. What he had to meet was expectations. Jackson found himself having to meet both.


Saying FOTR had lower expectations to meet is just completely wrong. If anytrhing, it had to reach a level that frankly is beyond most directors. And until now, no one thought Jackson was capable either.

If you read what I said, I NEVER said that FotR had lower expectations to meet. What I tried to illustrate is that the expectations for both films were very different. I also tried to illustrate that the expectations (not demands) for TPM were more impossible to meet because there was no real solid image that every single fan had in mind. Each of the millions upon millions of SW fans, when it was announced they were doing the prequels had their own ideas of how things were supposed to be. Each one had their own stories on how things occurred, each of them had their own take on the rise of the Empire, the fall of the Republic, the fall of Anakin, etc... That is an impossible expectation to meet.

The expectations (differentiate between that and demands now) for LotR are more easy to pinpoint -- not easy to meet, but easy to know what is expected of the person trying to make the films (Peter Jackson.) The expectation is right there in print. Every fan wanted a faithful adaptation to the novel. Now, would creating such an adaptation be easy? Heck no! And then there are the demands to deal with -- totally different phenonomenon all together. You know, to meet expectations, you have to be faithful to the novel -- but you also know that to make the film you are going to have to cut things out, change a few things, in order to get the right pacing, the right feel, convey the idea in a different way than the novel did because there are things in the novel that can't be put onto film because they are not visual, etc... But you also know that any change is going to be met with criticism -- because of the fanbase and the largesse of the movie you are about to take on. How to meet demands, and expectations. The demand was that everything be in there -- the expectation is that you make a great movie, something worthy of the novels. How to do that? That is the problem.

That is a very different problem than what GL was facing. I didn't say one was easier than the other. I said they were different expectations, and different problems.

While Peter Jackson had a blueprint to the expectations (he knew what he had to make, it was there in print) and that made it easier to deal with the expectations, he had a hell of a time balancing expectations and demands (And I think he did a great job) George Lucas had virtually no demands, and impossible expectations. It would be impossible to make a movie that would meet the expectations of millions of fans who each have their own ideas on what happens. Not just how to put what happens on film, but on what happens in the story itself.

Do you see what I meant -- or did I just make it more cofusing?



The other point is that we KNOW Lucas is capable on doing something wonderful, we have seen ot before. That is what we were expecting, cause we have seen it before. We KNEW he could deliver. Well, he didn't. And that is why TPM leaves a bad taste in the mouth. It could and should have been better and could have been so easily.

Well, he didn't for you. TPM leaves a bad taste in your mouth. I think it is important to realize that people disappointed in TPM are a very vocal minority, but a minority nonetheless. Is there or your opinion less valid? No. But I think it is important not to generalize and state your opinions as facts. Just like I think it's important for us who liked TPM and were not disappointed in it, and for whom TPM does not leave a bad taste in our mouths, not to generalize our opinions as facts.

On the whole, I do believe that FotR did a better job of meeting the expectations and demands of its fanbase than TPM did (or, at least, that's how it seems.) But I also believe the expectations for TPM were close to impossible to meet to begin with.

[Doc Milo]

LOTR was a great movie, but it is not even CLOSE to as good as The Matrix or Gladiator

Oh, I strongly disagree, Jon. Lotr: FotR was a much better movie than both The Matrix and Gladiator. For one, the story is stronger in LotR than both those films. And, even though Gladiator won for best picture, I didn't think it was worthy of the award. In fact, I thought the Patriot was a much better epic film than Gladiator. Just as an example of why: When Gibson loses his family, you feel his anquish, you feel his suffering, beacuse you have seen him interacting with them, you saw their bond, there was a more emotional attachment to them as characters. You understood his rage and his anger and his torment. You were emotionally attached to those characters before he lost them. But when Crowe loses his wife and kid, you don't get the same emotion because you never see him interacting with them before hand. There isn't the emotional attachment.

FotR did a much better job of forming and showing the emotional attachment between the characters than either Gladitor or the Matrix did.

In the Matrix, the whole thing with love of Trinity bringing Neo back to fight seemed forced to me. There wasn't anything there aside from light "sketches" before that happens. That whole area wasn't developed enough. It worked for what it was, pretty much relying on the action rather than the subtext and story to propel the story forward, but that in no way compares to the development between characters that FotR shows...

As for it being better than TPM? I think in some ways it is, and in some ways it's not. It's very difficult to compare the two movies as they are very different -- but I do think that more character development took place in FotR than took place in TPM, and in that way, FotR was better than TPM. An example of this is the Ringwraiths as compared to Darth Maul. Both play the same role -- they are the weapons of their respective masters. In fact, I know some who would say that Darth Maul fits the "Ringwraith Archetype." But look at the development of the Ringwraith as opposed to Darth Maul. For the RingWraith there is a backstory -- They were the original Nine humans given the Nine Rings of Power, over which Sauron's One Ring held control -- for Darth Maul there is none. He is a flat character. He is nothing but archetype. The Ringwraiths have more of a story to them. They are archetypes, but they are developed. That's just a minor area in Character development where FotR out-does TPM.

But then again, TPM is the first of six episodes where Fellowship is the first of three, which makes it difficult to compare.

[BUFFJEDI]

this post is NOT ment to be ugly/rude flaming etc...But I went and seen LOTR and left half way through it. I was bored to tears with it . But than you have to keep in mind I love the Friday the 13th movies:D . I really can't say why I hated it ,it just didn't hold my interest and I really did dislike the actors.But it WAS a beutiful movie (well what I saw of it :(. I'll not go on like Jon..But LOTR is NO where near what ANY SW film is.

[Dutchy]

By the way... what's with the paperclip next to the title?

[Nupraptor]

It means there's an attachment in this thread - the updated avatar I posted for Darth23

[Master Yoghurt]

Well, personally, I think FotR is running circles around TPM for pure entertainment value. I guess it is a matter of perspective and how you define quality of a movie. Dont get me wrong, I liked TPM, in fact, I would probably like it no matter what, just pointing to the fact it is a SW movie and due to its technical merits. I really appreciate all the work GL went through making it. There are also some parts of the movies that really had me awestruck (IE: The pod race and the lightsaber duel). Then there is a long of other moments are really great, too numerous to list here. Then the John Williams soundtrack. Outstanding as usual. Then the special effects, the sound editing and so on..

However, despite all the technical wizardry, I wont deny the fact I was more than a little disappointed as I left the theater. I really felt despite all the work put into making it, TPM failed to be the satisfying experience I really wanted. Somehow, (and this is my subjective opinion) I dont know how, GL failed to craft all these awesome bits together to make it the kind of story that made me a die hard fan of the original trilogy. At least, in the OT, I felt emotionally attached to the characters. The OT also had the ability to hold me consistently in suspense, where TPM only managed to this in selected places. For the moment, rather than viewing TPM as a brilliant movie standing strong on its own legs like ANH did, I tend to look at it as a setup for episode 2 and just the first part of a grander story.

LOTR on the other hand met every expectation and exceeded them. I had one heck of a blast viewing it, and will continue to do so for a looooong time forward. :)

[Darth23]

I've said it before and I'll say it again. I don't think GL was trying to repeat the 'OT' (read ANH) experience with TPM. I understand that a lot of people hoped they'd feel the same way after seeing TPM that they did the first time they say theire first Star Wars movie, but that not what Lucas was going for.

Maybe that's why so many people were 'disappointed'. Comparing TPM to 'the OT' makes no sense. The OT has 3 completely different movies, and the one that is now lauded as the 'best' was in many ways viewed as a disappointment when it came out. More critics liked it, but overall less people went to see it because it didn't have 'that fun feeling that the first one had' (Tthat's my take on it anyway) ROTJ has for years been put down as the 'ewok movie' not it's "part of the Great and Powerful Original Trilogy"

I think the biggest difference between LOTR and the PT is that the Tolkien fans out there already know the story. If came from a series of books publiushed 50 years ago that took 20 years to write. So what they're looking for is how Jackson interpreted the old, tested story. Of course a movie based on a book will have more depth that one that starts out as a film - that's usally the case.

With the PT, it seems like millions of Star Wars fans THINK they know that the PT is all about, because they know the OT so well. So part of the negative reaction is that the story isn't following the way they thought it should go. That's probably one reason so many fans hang out in Spoiler forums - so they can become instant experts in the PT stroy so that they can more properly 'instruct' Lucas about the mistakes he's making.

Just look at the Phantom Edit. "The Special Corrector's Edition" as if some fan knows what the story should be more than the person who's actually writing the story.


The PT is not the OT. It's going in a completely different direction. Things are not going to end well, and we're not going to have that warm, fuzzy OT glow when it's all over with.

---------
As far as TPM vs FOTR - ever since TPM came out there have been threads at TF.net saying this or that movie is the movie TPM should have been - it's kind of sad that they're still showing up.

The Phantom Menace isn't The Matrix, or Sixth Sense, or Planet of the Apes, or Gladiator or Lord of the Rings. Though all these stories may have some things in common, they are each their own film, and it's silly to say that one should 'be' the other.

Plus, there are some bad technical issues in FOTR. I noticed them the first time I saw it, and even more so after the second time. I really like the movie over all, but I don't think it will stand up to repeated viewings the way Star Wars movies do.

[Jedi Master Carr]

What techincal problems did you have? I didn't notice any when I saw it, I haven't seen it again yet, I am probably going today. I think the effects were nearly flawless maybe not the same as TPM but still great, I also think the movie will hold up to repeat views at least for me it will but that is just my opinion.

[Dutchy]

Originally posted by Darth23
The Phantom Menace isn't The Matrix, or Sixth Sense, or Planet of the Apes, or Gladiator or Lord of the Rings. Though all these stories may have some things in common, they are each their own film, and it's silly to say that one should 'be' the other.

I didn't mean it in sense of story, but in sense of the reaction of the people who saw it. The reviewers, the general audience, anyone. In that way LOTR is what TPM should have been, or at least that was something that came into my mind when I checked out all the reactions.

[Darth23]

*The dwarf/midget stand-in issue. I noticed the first time I saw the movie that almost every shot of a Hobbit or dwarf from behind was really a littel person stand in. It wasn't that distracting - but it was annyoing to me and I kept noticing it through the whole movie. At my second viewing I realized that a lot of the shots could have been shorter, giving the viewer less time to realize "Hey that's not Frodo! It's a midget dressed like Frodo!"

Related to that is Jackson's "revolutionary efx technique" that was supposed to allow normal sized actors appear Hobbit sized. I've been hearing about it for over a year, which is no big deal, but in several shots the normal sized person (usually Gandalf) was looking in the wrong place - and that was a little annoying to me.

*The Cave Troll. Overall the sequence was much better than I thought it would be from seeing the trailer, but it looks kind of cgi- fakey - especially when it first appears and when Sam ducks under it. It moves way too fast liek it has no masss of its own - like the snake in Anaconda.

* The scene right after the cave troll, the heros all run out of a room and they are completely cgi. I wasn't looking for this, it took me completely by surprise when I saw it, and they didn't look HORRIBLE, but they definitely looked animated. Ther were also cgi when they were running down the stairs from the Balrog in one shot, but I didn't notice that until my second viewing.

It would be as if Qui Gon and Obi wan were suddenly animated as they are fleeign fron the droidekas. There's a quicj animated shot of sone peopel in ROTJ, I believe, and when Darth Maul leaps off his speader after Qui Gon, he's animated - for liek a second or two, but it's not nearly as noticable as Toon Gandalf and Co.

* The swordfighting. URGH. Could we shake the camera and make 20 quick cuts a second some more? Most of the action sequneces in the movie are really good - especially the chase scenes, but it looks like most of the actual swordfighting was shot be the 8th unit director with NO fight choreographer. Then they chopped together what they could.

They're all like the quick llightsaber fight in the desert between Qui Gon and Maul, but in that case I think the quick disorientating cuts were done in order to give the audience a quick taste of a lightsaber fight before the Real Thing at the end of the movie. In the case of FOTR, it seems like every swordfighting scene is like this. They have a few shots of the individual shot of the individual heros hacking or stabbing, but you dont' get any overall scenes of what's happening in the scenes.

* The Wizard fight (Double URGH).
OK, I grew up on comics and cartoons so maybe it's not fair for me to expect that a Wizard Duel would be all flashy with lighting bolts, and explosions and cool visual eye candy, HOWEVER, Gandalf and Saruman were basically bashing each other with invisible, magic clubs. :( Gandalf's triple flip is a move I've seen dozens of times on Hercules and Xena, and I don't even WATCH Hercules and Xena, and when Galdalf was spinning around on the floor I definitely heard a lot of giggles.


Minor issues:
I won't ask how Gandalf got his staff back, that was a minor issue to me. Another minor issue was that the guy who played Agent Smith in THe Matrix kind fo spoke like him a bit, that was a bit distracting. Um, the extended slo-mo death of Boromir. I thought the third arrow was a bit much.

There are other things that I've read from other people that I can understand, though they werent' a big issue to me:

Elijah Wood's deer in the headlights expression throughout the entire movie, the fight, run, rest, fight, run rest, repeated story structure, the really dark and grey scenes what could either be there to add mood or to cover some less than impressive effects, in spots. It just seemed like parts of the movie were unnecesarily monochrome.

That's about it, mostly. :)

[Darth23]

"I didn't mean it in sense of story, but in sense of the reaction of the people who saw it. The reviewers, the general audience, anyone. In that way LOTR is what TPM should have been, or at least that was something that came into my mind when I checked out all the reactions."

Because TPM was such a greatly underappreciated movie, obviously. ;)

[Jedi Master Carr]

First I think you need to put spoiler tag on some of those comments somebody who hasn't seen the movie might get upset

I disagree about most of those effects shots you mentioned. I thought the cave troll was very good cgi, again my opinion, and I didn't noticed them being toon like when running from the demon.

The swordfighting was cool I think and typical of medieval warfare and I think its just a tip of whats to come in the next movie.

The Wizard battle, I loved that scene (its pretty much straight from the book) sure he could have changed it and made them have fireballs come out of their hands or something but that would have even looked more corny.

Bormor's death was great and the reason for the third arrow was to show how hard he thought to try and save Merry and Pippin and that is the reason why it is shown that way again it is similar to the book except we don't see much of it, Aragon just finds him with three arrows in him.

I have no problems with any of the FX and I bet that LOTR will win every effect award but that is just my opinion.

[Darth23]

Sorry, I guess I assumed anyone who reads this thread has already seen both movies.

For the sword fighting, it's like orcs just appear out of nowhere and get struck down immediately, then some more appear, but you have no idea what the heroes are looking at, how many of them there are, or how close they are. You can't really see what's going on overall - it looks like certain characters are done fighting, then they're allof a sudden fighting some more orcs that come out of no where.

Compare that to the chase sequences where you can kid of get the idea where all the characters are, relative to each other, and how many of adversaries they're facing and where they are.

I'm glad someone liked the wizard battle, because that annoyed me the most.


I think the Rancor in ROTJ looks way better than the cave troll (which looks a lot like the troll in the clip of Harry Potter that I saw)

[Jedi Master Carr]

No problem, I know Jedieb hadn't seen it yet and might get upset seeing that one spoiler :) As far as the cave troll I think it looks a lot better than the Rancor, man I watched ROTJ a while back and I can see that it is fake, its just a minature and you can tell it and Luke aren't even there. The Cave Troll is CGI and does look more authentic IMO, but it does looks a like a distant cousin to the one in HP. Your criticism of the CGI sounds like a few of my friends who argue the CGI in TPM look fake. My argument is it is because you know its fake because they tell you in all of those specials before the films come out. I hate those things the ruin the movie before you even see it it would be better not having them because then you won't know what is and isn't real. I would rather watch that stuff after because I find it more revealing.

[Darth Turbogeek]

Ummmm.... okay, I can comment now. I have seen LOTR.

There is no way that TPM could even be considered in the same league. Speaking as a Tolkein fanboy, this was all I could want and so much more. As a moviegoer, it was mindblowing.


As a Star Wars fan, it showed up TPM badly I am sorry to say. TPM just isnt in the same league.

I'll put more thoughts down later. Right now, this is a moive I just want to savour. Awesome. Just plain awesome

[Champion of the Force]

I have seen LOTR.
I have to wait until tomorrow to see it - damn theatre was booked out today. :(

[Master Yoghurt]

DT, it is great to hear you liked it! Especially concidering you have read LOTR, how many times is it, 20? That is a strong indication they did something right. Personally, I read LOTR only once and many years ago, yet I really felt familiar with it.

Completely out of topic, I hope you guys are ok? I was getting worried when I heard about forest fires on the news yesterday.

[Champion of the Force]

I hope you guys are ok? I was getting worried when I heard about forest fires on the news yesterday.
I live nowhere near them, but I may have to go up and help fight them if they need more volunteers (I'm a member of the volunteer bushfire brigade in my district).

[Darth23]

My argument is that it looks fake because of the way it movies and because of the lighting around it.

The dinosuars in JP were cgi (in some parts, anyway) and they looked completely real, imo - which is what I expected.

[Marcus Telcontar]

Completely out of topic, I hope you guys are ok? I was getting worried when I heard about forest fires on the news yesterday.

Yeah, I'm ok - the fires arent that close to me. The whole of Sydney is covered with soot and smoke tho and it looks that it could get worse. When I get home today, I'll be doing some basic anti fire prep, even tho I am about 10 km from the nearest fire. New fires are springing up everywhere so fast and I am concerned, since my home does back onto some scrublands. Visibility is being reduced quite badly and old folks and asthmatics are being told to stay indoors. There's about 10 fires near Sydney, one south that is apparently a really big problem and there's evacuations by the thousands, plus a 15km long one that is just too big to even think about putting out that is advancing from the south west that may get to the outlying suburbs in a day or two. 60meter high flames. there's more at http:www.news.com.au (Click on the link to NSW and see todays newspaper front cover) and http://www.smh.com.au. Not a plesant Christmas for a lot of Sydney familes :(

Now back on topic



I have to wait until tomorrow to see it - damn theatre was booked out today.

I know what you mean. I was lucky to get my ticket. Apparently the sold out signs are already out for next weekend in some places too. I just dont remember TPM being this packed out, nor anything else either. And I think it's going to be packed out for a long time too, cause it was clear people just love FOTR. Even the 80 y.o. granny whom was sitting in front of me, she LOVED it. Tolkein nuts like me wont find much to hate, even the blatant changes DO follow the book to some degree. And Arwen's scences (apart from the chase and the Fords) are in Appendix D. So, no problems there.

Overall, it's just plain staggering what's been filmed here. I cant wait to go back. Overall, I realise no movie is perfect, but what flaws there are were overwhelmed by the rest. What flaws exist are more obvious however I have to say, due to the rest of the movie just being so good. Best movie of the year, no doubt, no argument.

As for the CGI..... what CGI? I failed to notice any. Which is probably the whole point ^_^

[Master Yoghurt]

It is a great relief hearing both of you are ok! It is rather disturbing that some of these bush fires were lit by arsonists. I find it amazing what some people are capable of doing.

Back to topic...

It is really difficult getting tickets here as well. In Norway, LOTR actually beat HP's opening at box office. Everybody are nuts about Tolkien over here. Due to the ticket booking madness, I have still only seen it twice, but I look forward to see it many times more.. :)

[Champion of the Force]

Well I saw LOTR today.

Two words:

****ing awesome!

I agree with DT - this is above and beyond TPM (sorry George) for me at least. :)

As for the CGI, I had no problems, but then again I wasn't really looking very hard - I was too busy following the storyline. ;)