TSE VS. TGE (RE: Use of Personal Fleets)

[Daegal Murdoch]

After speaking privately with Ogre, I can only conclude that the decision of whether or not personal fleets are allowed or not in the upcoming TSE vs. TGE conflict remains undecided.

I would like to open a mature, level-headed discussion about this.

And now...

My Take:

I believe that personal fleets should be allowed. My reasoning is simple, why build personal craft if you cannot use them to defend your group. And from an IC standpoint, why would my character not use any and all means necessary to defend his new home, his master, and his friends?

Obviously some members of TGE agree.

(Taken from http://www.swforums.net/forum/showthread.php?threadid=11367#post173470)


Posted by Grand Admiral Thrawn

I may not be the leader of TGE, but you can use every ship you got against us for all I care.

I believe that this clearly shows that at least some members of TGE concur with my opinion. Now, I have no ideas as to Grand Admiral Thrawn's rank, or influence, but obviously at least one member (and probably more) of TGE agree that personal crafts should be allowed...

Let the discussion commence.

[Varlon Konrad]

I personally agree that personal fleets should be allowed into fleet roleplays, as there is no use for them (aside from a private base of operations) with being barred from use from defending one's group or acting as an advanced strike force (or other such actions that could be counted as a "gain" for said group). Before anyone screams that this could easily be used to bolster any groups navy, I also propose that ships, from now on, can not be donated or merged with a group's fleet if you are within that group at the time or have been within the past three months. This, in my opinion, would discourage what I would call "public fleet built by the private owners." I decided to hand over my original fleets to The Sith Empire as I had no use for such a large group of ships (my new current one is much more appropriate for an individual).

[Grand Admiral Thrawn]

Grand Admiral Thrawn's rank is Grand Admiral :p

And I certainly didn't speak for TGE when I said that. It's just my personal opinion, and I'm entitled to it I suppose. It's really up to the mods/admins if personal fleets are allowed or not.

If they're allowed in the battle, use them.

If they aren't allowed in the battle, don't use them.


I also propose that ships, from now on, can not be donated or merged with a group's fleet if you are within that group at the time or have been within the past three months.

This rule sounds good. It also sounds fair. But I don't make the rules :)


I decided to hand over my original fleets to The Sith Empire as I had no use for such a large group of ships

Again, I don't speak for my colleagues at TGE, but that does make sense to me. What would a single Sith do with anything bigger then say a 300m ship as their own?

[Daegal Murdoch]

Grand Admiral Thrawn's rank is Grand Admiral :p
Forgive me. I sometimes miss what should be obvious..:lol


And I certainly didn't speak for TGE when I said that. It's just my personal opinion, and I'm entitled to it I suppose. It's really up to the mods/admins if personal fleets are allowed or not.

I certainly wasn't implying that you spoke for TGE as a whole, I apologize if my post indicated that. I merely meant to point out that a member of TGE felt that it did not matter.


I also propose that ships, from now on, can not be donated or merged with a group's fleet if you are within that group at the time or have been within the past three months.

I also wholeheartedly support this rule and think that it should definetly be implremented.

[Grand Admiral Thrawn]

I certainly wasn't implying that you spoke for TGE as a whole, I apologize if my post indicated that. I merely meant to point out that a member of TGE felt that it did not matter.

No need to apologize :p

*Takes more wacky pills*

:crack :rollin :rollin :crack :crack :crack :rollin

[Jeseth Cloak]

I am a high-ranking member of TGE (as another character: Zorin Hexes), but am too lazy to switch accounts at the moment. I think you should be able to use every ship you have that has been built in your non-customer shipyards. If your personal fleets have been built in the customer yards of TSE, then sorry, but the rules state that you clearly can not do it. That is a reason that I am completely against the concept of customer shipyards. They lead to these kind of problems.

As for ships built outside of TSE in shipyards that have been confirmed to exist, along with threads that have been allotted the proper build time, I agree that they should be allowed to participate in the war.

[TheHolo.Net]

This rule sounds good. It also sounds fair. But I don't make the rulesTo be completely factual, we the staff don't make the rules either. I believe it to be a community effort. :)

I like what I am seeing so far in this thread and am okay with all the suggestions, but would like to see the input of more members of the community before making any revisions to the old rule set for fleets, which will soon be complety revised as it is. :) Carry on.

[Darth Viscera]

I am loathe to express my opinion, but I'll do it anyway.

It seems to me that Customer shipyards shouldn't be able to produce heavy capital ships. Example- Why would the average customer be in need of an Imperator II Star Destroyer? Why would a galactic authority (assuming it's sane) sell a customer an Imperator II Star Destroyer? Why would a galactic authority even sell an Imperator II Star Destroyer to one of its own officers? It's obvious it would only encourage individualism and dissention.

Customer shipyards should be able to produce ships no larger than 200 meters, with no more weapons capability than a Corellian Corvette. They should be used for the growth of neutral factions (such as TCP) by providing large amounts of Bulk Freighters, light starfighters (such as Z-95s, Planetary Starfighters, and the like...no serious made-for-war starfighters) to those who have no significant shipbuilding capacity of their own.

[Severen Morkonis]

As the leaderof a well known team, well..semi known i agree that personal fleets also should be allowed to help.fight with/ally with the side of there chooseing...however...as Visc said and its enitrely up to him what he dose with his shipyards i agree with the clause of the ship yard building lengh, the BWC only sell ships up to a lengh of 1000 meters and not above for defensive perposes, i agree with both, but if the owner of a fleet wishes to help another team that built the ships for him/her then it is the concern of the group and the leader of the single fleet to work out...

Again however i agree with Visc on the size rule...

[Admiral Lebron]

LebronCorp has an Imperial II Star Destroyer, but, it's going to be modified soon. :) So don't worry about some deranged scientists running around with an Impduece.

[Varlon Konrad]

*Ahem* Okay ladies and gentleman, if we could get back on topic (See: Allowance of personal fleets to be involved in group conflicts).

While the rules state that you would not be able to, Jeseth, it would seem so far several people disagree with not being allowed to use their resources to help their respective group in defending itself. Not only that, there are very few groups that will sell to individuals of group X, simply because they're in group X. Which means individual Y has to buy from group X in order to get what he wants. The old TGS seems to have shut down, so purchasing ships from a neutral supplier seems to be a non-existant option, on top of the general bias towards people of a specific group for whatever reason.

Hence this call to repeal (or modify) the rule.

[Jeseth Cloak]

The rules have been as such for so long because it keeps fleet sizes smaller. What you wish to do is unfairly increase the size of TSE's fleet by having the rules modified to your advantage. How about this compromise: The rule changes, and TGE uses it's customer yard as a military yard instead. I'm sure all our members can donate their personal fleets.

Of course I wasn't serious about that last part by the way. I'm only illustrating what you're asking.

Customer shipyards should not be allowed because they are unrealistic unless there is a cap on the size of what they can pump out, as Viscera said earlier. "Customers" should have their ships built within a groups military yard if their intentions are to use them for the groups military gain and/or defense.

[Darth Viscera]

Originally posted by Varlon Konrad
*Ahem* Okay ladies and gentleman, if we could get back on topic (See: Allowance of personal fleets to be involved in group conflicts).

My idea is meant to adjust personal fleets so that they have little or no military power, which would make this whole argument moot.

[Donovan Than]

[Daegal Murdoch]

Jeseth, from an IC standpoint, if TBH's homeworld was under a full frontal assault, and was losing, what would the character Jeseth do? He would use any and all means necessary to defend his group. This is a roleplaying board, and so we must look at the rules from a roleplay standpoint.

It is ludicrous to think that anyone who had allegiances with a group would not use their own ships to defend it. I challenge you to come up with any IC reason why you wouldn't use personal ships to defend your group.

[Vega Van-Derveld]

I challenge you to come up with any IC reason why you wouldn't use personal ships to defend your group.

I fully agree with Daegals reasoning behind using personal fleets in fleet encounters of the future.

What particular difference would it make if the members of TSE used their own craft during the fleet combat to their opponents? They would also be allowed to use any personal craft that they had, and IMO that makes it pretty much fair - seeing as it's not like TGE doesn't already have a huge amount of ships (from what I've gathered).

[Cirrsseeto Quez]

Personal fleets are generally defined to perform in the scope of a personal RP. Its generally not for true fleet confrontations. For instance...if you're traveling somewhere and need an entourage...you'd use a personal fleet. Unless somebody tries to ambush you in one of these, Personal fleets really shouldn't be used at all in group fleet engagements.

Daegal, your example regarding TBH is invalid, as that group has arranged to be left out of any fleet roleplays whatsoever.

[Varlon Konrad]

Daegal, your example regarding TBH is invalid, as that group has arranged to be left out of any fleet roleplays whatsoever.
Cirr, even though TBH is exempt, an example does not have to follow this as such. It is what we call a "hypertheoretical situation", and as such, I find a valid one. So, as Daegal said, I would like to see if Jeseth can come up with reasons one wouldn't defend his or her group's territory with whatever he had to throw at invaders.


My idea is meant to adjust personal fleets so that they have little or no military power, which would make this whole argument moot.
After drafting up rules about what a personal fleet can and cannot do, drafting up customer yard construction rules, and drafting up downsizing rules, which could take several months on its own. So there would be quite a bit of dead time between now and making the point moot if it began today. But the issue on hand as of this moment is whether personal fleets can fight along their owner's group's fleets.


What you wish to do is unfairly increase the size of TSE's fleet by having the rules modified to your advantage.
I would like you to show me how this is unfairly increasing TSE's fleet, as I did not limit the advantages to TSE alone. Under this thinking, it would mean every group would be able to "unfairly" increase the size of their fleet. Also, another question, didn't I say one couldn't hand over their personal fleet to the group itself (for the group to pick and choose what it does, instead of the owner) under these conditions:


can not be donated or merged with a group's fleet if you are within that group at the time or have been within the past three months.
Which means the person would have to quit the group for at least three months if he wanted to hand over his or her personal fleet to the group they were with. And again, I stress that I doubt many would be willing to do so.

[TheHolo.Net]

Studies word "hypertheoretical"

Hypothetical. :)

Don't mind me, I just found that word amusing. I don't intend any ridicule. :)

Carry on with the discussion, its going well and everyone is making good points.

[Varlon Konrad]

Heh, sorry. Spelling isn't really my forte, so I do occassionally make a typo :p

[TheHolo.Net]

"hypertheoretical" has a very sci-fi sound and it conveyed what you meant.

**Off Topic end**

[Darth Viscera]

But the issue on hand as of this moment is whether personal fleets can fight along their owner's group's fleets.

According to the fleet rules, they can't. The only exception to that clause is ships which were constructed at customer shipyards other than those belonging to the character in question's group.

EDIT~Danke schon, Swfans.net.


every group is allowed one civilian-run 40km shipyard which they can use to sell starships to potential customers. It is illegal to use these customer shipyards for the military gain of your group.

As established by Swfans.net, "military gain" is synonymous with military action, and does not mean military offensive action.


After drafting up rules about what a personal fleet can and cannot do, drafting up customer yard construction rules, and drafting up downsizing rules, which could take several months on its own. So there would be quite a bit of dead time between now and making the point moot if it began today.

I wholeheartedly agree with your conclusion. It would take months to compile a list of fleet rules that allowed you to take advantage of a civilian shipyard, if you began today. The rules which are in effect today lead me to believe that, if a personal ship or ships were used, it would clearly be declared god-moding and promptly ignored.


a) 'God Moding' - this involves doing something in character which is impossible, or that gives you an unfair advantage. For instance throwing a mountain at someone, destroying their Imperial Star Destroyer in one post, or wiping out a planet by clicking some fingers. These sorts of things are not appreciated.

[TheHolo.Net]

Originally posted by Darth_Viscera

quote:
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But the issue on hand as of this moment is whether personal fleets can fight along their owner's group's fleets.
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According to the fleet rules, they can't. There are no possible loopholes in that clause. Actually there is one exception. Personal Fleets constructed at other group's customer yards, which was established in the other thread.

[Varlon Konrad]

*Nods to SWFans*

But as I stated earlier, most groups are biased towards selling to certain parties, whether there be a war or not. So more often than not, personal fleets are built at home. Even if we do not repeal the rule, perhaps an errata stating ships built before the incorporation of the new rule (6/19) would be considered legal in use, as they were constructed under a time when personal fleets built at a group's home CY* would be allowed (but must have proof that they were). And before I hear a cry of "Unfair advantage for TSE", note that I have again, not mentioned any specific parties being exempted, not even the TGE.

*Customer yard. I'm getting sick of typing it out :p

[TheHolo.Net]

Originally posted by Darth_Viscera
It seems to me that Customer shipyards shouldn't be able to produce heavy capital ships. Example- Why would the average customer be in need of an Imperator II Star Destroyer? Why would a galactic authority (assuming it's sane) sell a customer an Imperator II Star Destroyer? Why would a galactic authority even sell an Imperator II Star Destroyer to one of its own officers? It's obvious it would only encourage individualism and dissention. I am compelled to agree with this outlook, but don't wish to make it so that any that are currently owned are abolished or downsized.

[Laran Katern]

Frankly, as long as the ships are constructed legally, I don't see why there should be any rules in place as to how they are used. To put it bluntly it doens't make sense, and limits the role playing factor if you ask me.

If the ships exist and my home planet is being attacked or home base or whatever, it is only logical that I'm going to send them to help out. Sure, I probably wouldn't use them in a frontal assualt, but even if I did, that would be my choise. Like I say the ships exist, not using them would be pointless. Why else would I have them? It's like giving your character a lightsaber, but telling him if he purchased it from a weapons shop that that character cannot use it in a battle. Perhaps that is an exgeration, but still. If there around going to be rules, make them apply to the construction of the ships/fleets, but when they are completed don't handcuff the parties by saying no you're not allowed to use your ships to do this. or that.

Just my own 2 cents. Don't mind the typos, I don't have my contatcs in yet and i'm too lazy for spell check.

[Darth Viscera]

perhaps an errata stating ships built before the incorporation of the new rule (6/19) would be considered legal in use, as they were constructed under a time when personal fleets built at a group's home CY* would be allowed (but must have proof that they were).

Well, that's a better idea than customer shipyards pumping out cruisers for personal war fleets. In addition, we should include an errata stating that customer shipyards (which, I must remind the reader, are run by civilians) cannot produce dedicated ships for war. Parameters to that effect would be something like this:

-No ships above 200 meters.
-No ships with a weapons capability exceeding that of a Corellian Corvette.
-No dedicated war starfighters. Starfighters should be light and in existence in the civilian market since the time of 0 A.B.Y. at least.

Example- 4 Z-95s, 8 Planetary Starfighters, 2 YT-2400s.
Bad Example- <strike>4 TIE Advanceds, 8 TIE Defenders, 2 Missile Boats.</strike>

Vehicles produced at customer shipyards before the implementation of the civilian ship errata would still be allowed to be in use.

[Varlon Konrad]

Viscera, just to clarify, when I mentioned "the new rule", I was referring to our current fleet rules, hence the date of 6/19, not the suggested CY ones.

[Darth Viscera]

It's a package deal, basically. If you want to be able to use your old personal ships, you'd have to accept the civilian shipyard errata, to ensure that you can never pull one over on us like this again.

[Varlon Konrad]

Originally posted by Darth_Viscera
It's a package deal, basically. If you want to be able to use your old personal ships, you'd have to accept the civilian shipyard errata, to ensure that you can never pull one over on us like this again.
You could have said you were proposing to tack this onto the errata in the first place, and I wouldn't have been confused :p But I'm willing to agree to having CY's changed over to civilian yards instead of military ones.

[Darth Viscera]

Just to clarify things-they're already civilian-run shipyards.


every group is allowed one civilian-run 40km shipyard which they can use to sell starships to potential customers. It is illegal to use these customer shipyards for the military gain of your group.

[Daegal Murdoch]

Originally posted by Darth_Viscera

every group is allowed one civilian-run 40km shipyard which they can use to sell starships to potential customers. It is illegal to use these customer shipyards for the military gain of your group.

As established by Swfans.net, "military gain" is synonymous with military action, and does not mean military offensive action.


Well, obviously if this rule was not to be negotiated, SWFans would have stopped the thread. Moot point.



Well, that's a better idea than customer shipyards pumping out cruisers for personal war fleets. In addition, we should include an errata stating that customer shipyards (which, I must remind the reader, are run by civilians) cannot produce dedicated ships for war. Parameters to that effect would be something like this:

-No ships above 200 meters.
-No ships with a weapons capability exceeding that of a Corellian Corvette.
-No dedicated war starfighters. Starfighters should be light and in existence in the civilian market since the time of 0 A.B.Y. at least.

Example- 4 Z-95s, 8 Planetary Starfighters, 2 YT-2400s.
Bad Example- 4 TIE Advanceds, 8 TIE Defenders, 2 Missile Boats.

Vehicles produced at customer shipyards before the implementation of the civilian ship errata would still be allowed to be in use.


*WARNING* HYPOTHETICAL SITUATION *WARNING* :lol

What if TGE took over all TSE planets except the one that housed our customer yard and we needed money to construct additional ships to defend that planet? Would we have our "civilian" shipyard build only Correlian Corvettes? Of course not! Putting limits on shipyards (customer or military) is completely anti-rp. By stating that the shipyards belong to the group it makes no sense to limit OOC the uses of those yards...


My idea is meant to adjust personal fleets so that they have little or no military power, which would make this whole argument moot.

And then the point of having personal fleets is...?


Originally posted by: Laran Katern
Frankly, as long as the ships are constructed legally, I don't see why there should be any rules in place as to how they are used. To put it bluntly it doens't make sense, and limits the role playing factor if you ask me.


That is the entire point behind my claim, all summed up in a nice little paragraph. Thanks! :)

[Jeseth Cloak]

The rules are stated as such to limit the unrealistic growth of fleets. If this could have been done RP-wise, then a group would have been issued an extra military yard instead of their originally assigned amount. Even knowing that TGE would have ships to gain, I am still not in favor of this rule. It is unrealistic (resource wise), and circumvents the current rules. If someone had a problem with this it should have been brought up prior to this war.

As to answer your question about TBH (Varlon), Jeseth doesn't have a personal fleet, so he wouldn't be able to use it to defend his group or his planet if it's not even there. Viscera is right about his statement, and if this was done it would need to mean the eradication of customer yards in the future, since the very reason that they were originally set up is now being flushed down the tubes.

I should restate my original point: If you intended to have your ships built for the military gain of your group, then why didn't you build them in the group’s military yards?

[Varlon Konrad]

I should restate my original point: If you intended to have your ships built for the military gain of your group, then why didn't you build them in the group’s military yards?
Jeseth, where have you been? We've been discussing private fleets, not group fleets. Last I checked, group fleets were generally built at the groups Military yards and other groups customer yards (if they need a quick boost).


As to answer your question about TBH (Varlon), Jeseth doesn't have a personal fleet, so he wouldn't be able to use it to defend his group or his planet if it's not even there.
Jeseth, that doesn't answer our question of IC reasons that someone wouldn't. We're talking about from the standpoint of someone with, not someone without. So you didn't answer Daegal's question at all.


Just to clarify things-they're already civilian-run shipyards.
Just because they're civilian run doesn't mean squat, honestly, as most modern day shipyards are civilian run, and still construct military ships. When I said change them to Civilian yards from military ones, I'm talking about dis-allowing them from building any military-biased ship.

[Jeseth Cloak]

Originally posted by Varlon Konrad
Jeseth, where have you been? We've been discussing private fleets, not group fleets. Last I checked, group fleets were generally built at the groups Military yards and other groups customer yards (if they need a quick boost). We are talking about the use of private fleets to strengthen group fleets. It sounds quite different if you leave out the technicalities. Also, if Jeseth had any ships built at a customer yard, I would never RP him having a warship built.

I don't think that you can go to Sears, where they do sell boats, and ask them if you can have a battle ship. Here in the Florida Keys we have plenty of customer ship manufacturers, and I don't recall seeing an assault boat, a nuclear submarine, or even a destroyer docked for sale. Why? Because a civilian-run shipyard doesn't have the knowledge to produce that kind of vessel, or the resources.

[Varlon Konrad]

I don't think that you can go to Sears, where they do sell boats, and ask them if you can have a battle ship.
Sears is not a marine vessel manufacturer, only a dealer. So your point is pretty moot, friend. Civilian ship yards do, in fact, construct warships, as well as other large marine vessels (such as tankers, super tankers, massive cruise vessels, etc.). Those same yards rarely construct small pleasure craft (like Seadoo, or other various pleasure craft manufacturers).


We are talking about the use of private fleets to strengthen groups fleets.
But the choice of those private fleets to strengthen group ones is the the owner of the fleet in question, not the group's fleet commander. So, if anything, you're going to have to convince them, not I.

[Jeseth Cloak]

Sears is not a marine vessel manufacturer, only a dealer. So your point is pretty moot, friend. Civilian ship yards do, in fact, construct warships, as well as other large marine vessels (such as tankers, super tankers, massive cruise vessels, etc.). Those same yards rarely construct small pleasure craft (like Seadoo, or other various pleasure craft manufacturers).Can you prove any of this?

[Donovan Than]

Jeseth: I challenge you once again...

Give me an IC Reason why I, or Varlon, or you would not use our personal fleets to assist in defense of our respective groups? If you had a ship (hypothetical...) and if TBH was under attack, are you telling me that your character would not use any and all means necessary to defend his comrades?

I will restate again...this is a roleplaying board. As such, the rules must be based off roleplaying.

[Daegal Murdoch]

Wrong account, sorry. That was me.

[Admiral Lebron]

Stop being redundant. It's annoying. Anyways, what I want to say is this; One, why would a Sith need fleets the size of Varlorns. This is a Roleplaying board, therefore one should Roleplay by staying in his or her characters. Sith tend to stay away from massive fleets. Besides, he still broke a rule none-the-less.

[Seth Darkserpent]

Sith tend to stay away from massive fleets.

Not true, Sith such as Naga Sadow, Palpatine, etc used massive fleets to consolidate their power. Sith crave power, and having a fleet is a nice form of power, no?

[Varlon Konrad]

Besides, he still broke a rule none-the-less.
Actually, Lebron, according to the ruling by Ogre, it was decided the merger was legal as it was unchallenged. If you want, I'll go get the direct quotation. Also, if you don't have anything to contribute, please stay off the thread as this is for constructive discussion, not attacking members.

Jeseth, look at Norfolk, Virginia, and it's a civilian yard that produces military ships. While they may not be built by civilians themselves, the yard itself is civilian run.

Daegal, I would suggest you take a short break from all this because your getting to be a hypocrit. Chill out, man. This isn't the battlefield.

[Daegal Murdoch]

Stop being redundant. It's annoying. .

With all due respect, I fail to see how I am redundant in repeating a point that was never answered. Never the less, I apologize for being redundant or annoying...


Anyways, what I want to say is this; One, why would a Sith need fleets the size of Varlorns.This is a Roleplaying board, therefore one should Roleplay by staying in his or her characters.

Two reasons that I can come up with right off the top of my head (Although there are more, I haven't taken the time to think of them all...) are, to protect his homeworld and to aid his orginization. I don't see how either of those is not staying in character.


Sith tend to stay away from massive fleets.
Sith are power-hungry and greedy. They will do anything to gain power and to ensure the security of the power that they already have, including using massive fleets.


Besides, he still broke a rule none-the-less.
As Varlon said, Ogre ruled on this already.


Daegal, I would suggest you take a short break from all this because your getting to be a hypocrit. Chill out, man. This isn't the battlefield.
Noted.

Unrelated Note: It has been brought to my attention that some of my previous posts were percieved as personal attacks. This was completely unintended and if anyone is offended, I sincerely apologize. Feel free to PM me if you feel that I offended you.

[DarthPoreon]

A small thing about the Civilian Run shipyards not being able to produce military ships:

Boeing and Lockheed Marten are both Civilian run companies and aircraft producers; yet they land massive contracts from the government to produce attack fighters...

Civilian Yards land government contracts to make warships

[Jeseth Cloak]

Like I said previously, because Jeseth doesn't have a fleet I can't tell you that he'd use it. Your reasoning makes a lot of sense, which I will admit... however, I propose that henceforth all customer shipyards be abolished or turned into military yards, because their original purpose (to provide characters with non-group military ships) is being twisted in order to provide groups with extra ships and military might.

I won't deny that your reasoning is logical, but you do have to admit that according to the rules what you propose makes the point of customer yards rather moot. If the ships produced there can be used in a war, it might as well be a military yard as well.

[Varlon Konrad]

Your reasoning, however, would mean abolishment of personal fleets entirely. Even if we restricted people to YT-1300s, people just throw on there military hardware or really strong after-market kits, and you've still got a freighter that can act as a combat ship in military actions. So unless you're forcing people to landspeeders and skyhoppers, you would always see personal craft/fleets capable of engaging in military action (and even then, what's to say someone wouldn't arm a skyhopper with high-powered blaster cannons for use in ground ops?).

At all? What the hell am I on this morning..

[Jeseth Cloak]

My reasoning doesn't mean the abolishment of personal fleets, only customer yards. If you want large ships produced, pay a group to build those military grade ships right out of their own stocks and military yards.

[Varlon Konrad]

Aiyeee... then comes the fun of setting up rules for maintaining people's personal credit accounts and so forth. I think that would just be way too many headaches for what it would gain (although it is a good idea). x_x;

[Sanis Prent]

On the issue of customer yards, and whether or not a civilian can buy a military-grade vessel from such, etc...

Please stop citing real life issues. This is Star Wars, where you CAN have civilian entrepeneurs acquire such war vessels (Jabba the Hutt, Xizor, Lando Calrissian, etc). So in actuality, anybody can get what they want, provided they have what it takes to seal the deal. The only other things would be resources to operate. No, a sabacc card shark can't really get a SSD. Yes they can buy one, but finding the manpower and managing the resources isn't possible. Otherwise, yours truly would build up a dandy fleet for crazy shenanigans!

[Varlon Konrad]

Very good points, Sanis :) And a lot of the reason why I gave TSE my old fleet and decided to go with a small flotilla instead of full-blown Sector Fleets. I do believe the new proposed rules instate manpower rules (to an extent), though.

[Pierce Tondry]

Hey, a chance to do the job I volunteered for. :)

In all honesty, I think it's rather appalling that someone associated with a military group has a group of ships that are not part of the group's fleet pool. For an experienced and honest Fleet RPer, this is not a problem, but I can envision such a state quickly being applied to people with little idea of how to properly use it and heavy tendency to abuse it.

As a general rule, I believe a character should only be allowed direct control over one capital-grade vessel. In times of military action, the group would then assign more or different ships to those people they feel would best command them in time of war, but even so a character should have a single capital ship to their name as a general rule.

I would like to propose the preceding as an actual rule. I believe it would simplify things.

Exceptions (such as RPers whose characters are centered around Fleet RP having a set of ships for their general usage) or notations (such as an RP starting with a set of ships under direct control of a specific individual being classified as a military action) can always be developed.

I would like to take the time to mention that the computer I usually get online with has gotten infected with a virus that causes it not to load Windows. Until this problem is fixed, I will appear online only sparsely. I apologize for the inconvenience, but I'm doing what I can. If anyone can help me out, I will try and check the board tomorrow if I can get to a lab or something.

[Khendon Sevon]

As I see it…

It doesn’t matter if you, IC, would use your personal fleet against a military power to defend yourself, you have to think OOC, it’s like saying you can kill someone IC while rules OOC say you can’t (at least from my eyes, those of the Fleet Roleplayer).

Customer yards should be used as such! Military craft would not be produced in ‘customer’ yards, do you think the Empire would sell any craft over 200m unless it were decommissioned (such as early, early clone war craft) to a single group, let alone a person?! That’s preposterous!

How would one single person, be he Sith or Admiral, find a crew of over 2,000 dedicated officers and even more troopers to man a vessel? I’m sure he could pay them… but doesn’t that cost a small fortune? Some of you may have IC small fortunes, but money has its limits.

Any personal fleet would be lacking compared to a military fleet. The skills of the crew would be meager, as they would have had scant amounts of military training if any. These fleets would receive the scraps from the larger military fleets; they would have low response times and hardly be able to keep their craft intact. How is a Sith with no actual fleet training going to defeat a veteran, highly trained Admiral who has dedicated his life to combat in the heavens? Don’t get me wrong, it can happen, but it would be almost impossible.

Most personal fleets would be operating with ancient technology, read the books. At max we’re talking dreadnaughts, and even those require large crews and funding, you’d have to have an organization or corporation backing you. Technology? Bah! I’m sure the average person can get his hands on top of the line military technology without having direct links to that military, NOT. I’m sure you all wish to give your black projects and advanced technologies away to your cronies and compatriots and blad-de-blah-blah, but is that realistic? Did ol’ Palp. Give SSD’s to his nephews for x-mas each year?

As I see it, personal fleets are personal and can not be used in any way against an official military fleet, and if given such rights, which I do not believe they deserve, they would still not be on par with a high-tech, killing machine (A.K.A. TGE, TSE, TSO, NR, Etc) which can afford the large fleets and have the man-power to back them up.

If you don’t think one of these is correct, DEAL WITH IT, I’m stating my educated opinion on a subject that I feel I know very, very well (mainly because I’ve versed everyone from the Gungans –back in the day- to the recent war against TIR)

If this makes 50% sense, I’m happy, I just had track practice and my brain is fried, as are my muscles, good night, I must go study for a large biology test.

[Varlon Konrad]

How would one single person, be he Sith or Admiral, find a crew of over 2,000 dedicated officers and even more troopers to man a vessel? I’m sure he could pay them… but doesn’t that cost a small fortune? Some of you may have IC small fortunes, but money has its limits.
If you've got the cash to mantain vast personal fleets, you've got the cash to hire the crews. Of course, that kind of person is most likely paid by a local moff or a governing council (or similar) to defend his/her territory at a whim and a paycheck, but with SWFans.net not having monitary rules, can't really limit people's spending (unless they changed it so only characters of a wealthy background could buy ships; and then we'd see a rash of characters all coming in as princes, kings, etc.).


Any personal fleet would be lacking compared to a military fleet.
Not always, Khendon. A flotilla of combat hardened veterans could whip the tar out of a similarly sized force of green military personnel. Or reverse it, the green personal flotilla personnel might get lucky and whip the tar out of your veterans.


The skills of the crew would be meager, as they would have had scant amounts of military training if any.
What says these aren't discharged military personnel whom were hired up for the promise of old command's and plentiful paychecks? Hell, what about Imperial fleet cadets that flunked or dropped out due to the code of conduct?


These fleets would receive the scraps from the larger military fleets;
If you go through proper, legal channels ;) There is the black market, you know...


they would have low response times and hardly be able to keep their craft intact.
And what's to say these "crap" vessels haven't been restored and refitted?


How is a Sith with no actual fleet training going to defeat a veteran, highly trained Admiral who has dedicated his life to combat in the heavens? Don’t get me wrong, it can happen, but it would be almost impossible.
Actually, it's quite possible. A Sith with no training could pull off a tactic he used to defeat a Jedi, only on a fleet scale and trounce your prided admiral. New and unusual tactics almost always throw off a commander drilled in fleet tactics. Thrawn was an exception mostly due to the über nature of the character.


Most personal fleets would be operating with ancient technology, read the books.
Have, and again, those are in the books, this is SWFans.net, not a Zahn or Stackpole novel. Things could easily be drastically different here, as the "story" of SWFans.net is determined by every action of every member, not some single writer.


At max we’re talking dreadnaughts, and even those require large crews and funding, you’d have to have an organization or corporation backing you.
Smugglers manage to mass themselves massive fleets, and they almost never have corporate or organization backing (other than a paycheck or so for their illegal deeds).


Technology? Bah! I’m sure the average person can get his hands on top of the line military technology without having direct links to that military, NOT.
They could quite easily, Khendon. The Black Market has quite a considerable amount of recent technologies, because everyone has their price. Only the most recent of technologies is generally not found on the black market.


As I see it, personal fleets are personal and can not be used in any way against an official military fleet, and if given such rights, which I do not believe they deserve, they would still not be on par with a high-tech, killing machine (A.K.A. TGE, TSE, TSO, NR, Etc) which can afford the large fleets and have the man-power to back them up.
And what's to say you govern what TSE, or TSO, or the NR does with their shipbuilding capacity? It's their choices to hand over to some random stranger large warships.


(mainly because I’ve versed everyone from the Gungans –back in the day- to the recent war against TIR)
Fallacy. You couldn't have versed everyone :) Because there are always new people, new groups, etc.

[Darth Vader]

Oomph. Point - Varlon.

[Khendon Sevon]

I’d respond but all I’d do is reiterate my points, which make perfect sense and I don’t feel any of your statements hold weight against. Just because everyone wants a new, shiny play toy doesn’t mean they’re going to get it, some people just have harder times dealing with it than others.

[Darth Vader]

Khendon, your points hold weight in the real world, but in a star wars related backdrop, alot of that real world reasoning simply doesn't hold weight. The fact is, a rag-tag group of rebels with personally-owned ships, black-market weapons, hand-me-down warships, and other piecemeal accomodations destroyed the most advanced war force in the history of the galaxy. While we do have to create some kind of rules and regulations, we can't exactly have it as cut and dry as our real world would dictate.

[Khendon Sevon]

As I see it, it’s up to the participating bodies to decide whether or not personal fleets shall be allowed into this conflict.

We’ve already decided any ships build at the TSE customer shipyard cannot be used in this conflict (just as with ones build in the TGE customer shipyards).

Now, on the issue of personal fleets. I feel they are unrealistic and are only actually active due to people wishing a quick fleet command without putting a large amount of effort or time into it.

Thus I do not agree with personal fleets in this combat and cast my vote against it.

You could come up with any brilliant explanation to say why they are legal, but I feel my reasons are infallible, at least in my eyes, and so I shall not back down from my negative standing on this issue.

I had a mile of things to say and references but I don’t feel they would be even mentally thought about until after a retort was posted, therefore, this is my last post in this thread because I see it as more blasphemy.

(edit: note: Darth Vader, they were backed by entire planets and systems, if you look at it, they weren't that rag-tag -yet if I had been the ones writing the book they wouldn't have won, but this is all my opinion, which holds only as much weight as you wish it to.)

[Darth Vader]

Make no mistake, I disagree with the use of personal starship assets in fleet engagements, as I believe they are only to be used to augment personal roleplays. However, I disagree entirely with your reasonings in that decision. If we get on a discussion of whether ship A from Big Fleet or ship B from Tiny Fleet are better or worse, we can be here until the end of the next milennium.

So on the larger scale, I agree with you, but in the reasonings behind your conclusion....you are far from "infallible".

[Severen Morkonis]

Bottom line is this, i think that everyone buys a fleet to fight with, or they would not have of the top of my head- 5 VSD's, 2 Abolisher class cruisers with a full compliment of fighters..if you have no planet to defend what exsactly is the point of the whole ship deal?...

It is your fleet to RP with thus you should be able to use your fleet how and when you choose to, if a person has a fleet and is a member of a group that has a fleet already and that member decides to use there fleet as they do there skills to defend there group that they are a member of they defend there home and group then so be it....there a member of a group, i think they can defend it with a fleet as well as with a light saber...

[Daegal Murdoch]

We’ve already decided any ships build at the TSE customer shipyard cannot be used in this conflict (just as with ones build in the TGE customer shipyards).

Err? o_O You decided what TSE was gonna do??



Now, on the issue of personal fleets. I feel they are unrealistic and are only actually active due to people wishing a quick fleet command without putting a large amount of effort or time into it.


Well, that is nothing more than your opinion. My opinion is that a personal fleet is merely a character wanting to ensure his and his groups safety. I believe my opinion to be just as valid as you belive yours to be.


It is your fleet to RP with thus you should be able to use your fleet how and when you choose to, if a person has a fleet and is a member of a group that has a fleet already and that member decides to use there fleet as they do there skills to defend there group that they are a member of they defend there home and group then so be it....there a member of a group, i think they can defend it with a fleet as well as with a light saber...

Sieken, you made my point before I did! Grr! :lol

Personal fleets are nothing more than another weapon. Surely you would not object to me using my personal lightsaber or dagger if this were a conventional battle? A fleet is nothing more than a weapon. I believe that most characters consider their loyalty to their group a top priority, and thus would most likely defend it by any means necessary.


At the risk of sounding repetitive, I would like to reiterate one point. Why would a character loyal to his/her group not defend it by any means necessary?

[Darth Viscera]

Hmmm, so you wouldn't mind if TGE began using its customer yard to build warships for its members' personal fleets, to be used in the coming war for the military gain of TGE? Or is this a hypocritical situation?

[Varlon Konrad]

Originally posted by Darth_Viscera
Hmmm, so you wouldn't mind if TGE began using its customer yard to build warships for its members' personal fleets, to be used in the coming war for the military gain of TGE? Or is this a hypocritical situation?
If I remember right, Viscera, all of the propositions here have not discluded TGE. So no it isn't hypocritical, as the propositons that are being made are unbiased towards group.

[Sanis Prent]

They are apples and oranges.

Personal fleets are to augment roleplays. Let me separate "roleplays" and "fleet engagements". I'm talking about how John Doe Sith arrives at Random Planet in a snappy-looking entourage, and uses such a personal fleet for dramatic effect. Its not really there for an "add-em-up" traditional fleet engagement, its an element in the storyline, nothing more or less.

Fleets are more of a "keep score" version of roleplay, where the objective isn't to the story, but to coming out with more than the other guy.

If you want to assign any reasoning for personal assets in a fleet engagement at all...it would be the "last resort" if you had to get out of a losing battle. You'd hop in and get the hell outta dodge. Since you can't kill, and equally can't capture...it would be the only feasable way to implement their usage in a fleet roleplay.

We separated these two things for a reason, people. Because we DIDN'T want John Doe Sith to come in with his out of the blue pocket fleet that frankly wasn't in the scope of fair play.

Keep personal assets to personal roleplays. But if you do run out of ships...by all means, use them to roleplay you running away like a screaming banshee. But keep the group battles to the group ships. We didn't just separate them to confuse you...it was done for a distinct reason.

[Champion of the Force]

Why would a character loyal to his/her group not defend it by any means necessary?
Because it may end up infringing the OOC rules that are in place to ensure fairness and equality for all.

The comments Khendon mentioned above in regards to OOC mainitaining IC fairness must be kept in mind - for instance in theory anyone can kill anyone they want, but it's disallowed in the rules so that no one can just walk around killing off everyone's characters while they're offline.

I believe this is the reason why customer shipyards had the rule regarding ships built within to not be used to aid the particular group that built them - in theory it might make sense to allow any and all ships to defend the group when the need arises, but it again opens the potential loophole of groups using the customer shipyards to simply build up extra ships that are on hand 'to help' later on.

After reading what's been said in here, I think Jeseth's suggestion is the best - dump the customer shipyards altogether and just have every ship built within the group(s) normal shipyards.

It may slow down the building of personal ships, but at least then the owners can choose to use their ships however they please.

EDIT: Sanis' suggestion sounds good as well. :)

[Daegal Murdoch]

Note: I did not see Davwj's post as I was typing mine while his was posted.


Personal fleets are to augment roleplays. Let me separate "roleplays" and "fleet engagements". I'm talking about how John Doe Sith arrives at Random Planet in a snappy-looking entourage, and uses such a personal fleet for dramatic effect. Its not really there for an "add-em-up" traditional fleet engagement, its an element in the storyline, nothing more or less.

If personal craft are so insignificant, then why have customer yards at all? Surely you can agree that having the bother of customer yards makes no sense if the ships built there have no influence in protecting their owners group. If they are just for personal roleplays and have no outside influence, then I don't see why it is even necessary to have them built at a sactioned shipyard.


If you want to assign any reasoning for personal assets in a fleet engagement at all...it would be the "last resort" if you had to get out of a losing battle. You'd hop in and get the hell outta dodge. Since you can't kill, and equally can't capture...it would be the only feasable way to implement their usage in a fleet roleplay.

So you cannot attack anything but you can be attacked upon? O_o This hardly seems fair.


We separated these two things for a reason, people. Because we DIDN'T want John Doe Sith to come in with his out of the blue pocket fleet that frankly wasn't in the scope of fair play.


Ogre said that the rules were determined by the community, as such I think that it would be a logical assessment that fair play is also determined by the community. I realize the current stance of both yourself and the administration, but the point behind this thread was to change this stance.


Keep personal assets to personal roleplays. But if you do run out of ships...by all means, use them to roleplay you running away like a screaming banshee. But keep the group battles to the group ships. We didn't just separate them to confuse you...it was done for a distinct reason.

A group. A group is composed of members. Without the members, the group is nothing. Without the group, the members by themselves are nothing. Realizing this, why would the members not defend the group by any means that they have?

With all due respect, I just cannot see what possible IC reasons there would be for not using personal fleets to defend a person's group.

[Varlon Konrad]

One could also simply enforce a cap on the number of ships based on a total length of, I'd say, five kilometres? It gives a fairly large amount of room to play around with, but it also limits what one can do with their toys. Surely a large number of corvettes can hurt, but they're also easily picked apart by larger capital ships. The reverse is also true, a few large ships can kick some serious tail, but can easily be overrun with the lack of support forces. While no more important than the others, it is a fair suggestion.

[Champion of the Force]

With all due respect, I just cannot see what possible IC reasons there would be for not using personal fleets to defend a person's group.
Word of advice - consider BOTH IC AND OOC.

The point above concerning why no one is allowed to simply kill anyone IC is a good alternative reference as to why IC and OOC issues must be taken into account when drawing up ideas like this.

[Daegal Murdoch]

I believe this is the reason why customer shipyards had the rule regarding ships built within to not be used to aid the particular group that built them - in theory it might make sense to allow any and all ships to defend the group when the need arises, but it again opens the potential loophole of groups using the customer shipyards to simply build up extra ships that are on hand 'to help' later on.

After reading what's been said in here, I think Jeseth's suggestion is the best - dump the customer shipyards altogether and just have every ship built within the group(s) normal shipyards.

I think this is a great idea, but only if each group is given an additional military shipyard in lieu of the customer. I also believe that the rule should apply retrospectively, that is to all ships already created, as well as those in the future.


It may slow down the building of personal ships, but at least then the owners can choose to use their ships however they please.

True. And it makes more IC sense (imho).



Word of advice - consider BOTH IC AND OOC.

The point above concerning why no one is allowed to simply kill anyone IC is a good alternative reference as to why IC and OOC issues must be taken into account when drawing up ideas like this.

As I stated before, I do believe that you should consider both, but that the emphasis should rest very heavily on IC.

[Champion of the Force]

I think this is a great idea, but only if each group is given an additional military shipyard in lieu of the customer. I also believe that the rule should apply retrospectively, that is to all ships already created, as well as those in the future.
I personally don't see a problem with this, but I'm not a roleplayer so you guys will have to debate that one out. :)


As I stated before, I do believe that you should consider both, but that the emphasis should rest very heavily on IC.
Of course. But OOC should always be kept in mind somewhere as well. It can be quite dangerous to consider events solely on IC or OOC, because then you're not considering the full scope of issues involved. :)

[Jeseth Cloak]

I vote to upholding the current rules... however, if personal ships are allowed to be used in military actions even this once, then I propose for customer yards to be abolished and for all ships to be built straight out a groups normal yards. This would make groups think twice about expending resources.

[Khendon Sevon]

I said I wouldn’t post… but it seems like everything has now boiled down and it’s safe to raise my head from behind the bunker’s walls.

I agree with what Jeseth just said and I feel that if abolished a new military yard should not be given to each group.

[Minion of the Night]

I suppose I'm a bit late, but here's my take.
Everyone here is using light words, like
"fleet engagement" and "battle". We're talking, unless i'm completely out of the loop, full-scale war here. War relies on al ot of unwritten rules, and a lot of loopholes that people call rules. There are pretty much 2 true rules to war:
1. It's fought between two or more groups over something, never for no reason.
2. In almost all cases it involves death.
Aside from that, we have rules like "cease-fires on holidays"and "Don't shoot an unarmed man". As far as I can see, this kinda stuff is crap. War is war, outright. The only reason I can think of that anyone here wouldn't want personal craft used is because they're too scared of their enemies' non-registered fleets. And, as Daegal said, most people are going to use any and all forces possible to destroy their enemies. This is war, which means there's no more "playing nicely".There is no fair in war, there is power.

...One more Sith sick of whiners.

[Darth Viscera]

We're talking, unless i'm completely out of the loop, full-scale war here.

Actually, we're not. I had planned on a full-scale war, but that was tossed aside. We don't want any groups to collapse OOC midway through the war, thus it's not going to be a full-scale war.

[Master Yoghurt]

In case you have not noticed, I grew tired of fleet discussion threads a long time ago, so I will be quick and to the point:

Customer shipyards should be abolished.