Hosting Offer... [vBulletin]

[Jeseth Cloak]

I'm purchasing vBulletin soon for TBH, and a hosting package. I've been thinking about how much ezboard sucks, and how many groups are out there right now using it, and so here is my offer:

If any groups here wish to have their boards hosted on the vBulletin board, I will create a group forum and subforums and have all your posts moved from the old board (I think it can be done to various boards). Two Admins can be appointed by each group, and as many mods as their hearts desire. The same rules will apply to TBH, and the same rules that apply at SWFans.net will apply their.

I'm only asking that each group contribute $20 (yearly) for the hosting... which (if desired) can include some web space. The reason I'm asking first is that I'm not going to purchase a huge hosting package for no reason.

Let me know if anyone's interested and we can discuss all the details here... Including security issues anyone might be interested in.

[TheHolo.Net]

Use my link at the top of the forums to purchase? :D

[Jeseth Cloak]

Sure! :) What do you get if I do that, out of curiousity?

[TheHolo.Net]

I think I get a few bucks. Its been so long I don't remember the details, but it's all the same price to you the consumer. :)

[Jeseth Cloak]

Well, I'll do it so I can contribute a bit around here. :)

[TheHolo.Net]

Thank you very much, tis appreciated. :)

Now I have a question for you: Do you plan on buying the annual option for vB or the "owned" license?

I'm just curious and it has nothing to do with my previous question BTW.

[Jeseth Cloak]

It's really going to depend on the outcome of this thread, since I need what is going to be most affordable to me in the long run.

[TheHolo.Net]

I myself see it as more cost efective to use the owned option if this is a long term venture be it one for mere personal reasons or be it one for reasons including many individuals.

My reason is this:

85$ for the annual license vs. 165$ for the owned one.

In two years of operation, you have already paid the price of the owned license plus 5 dollars. If it goes longer than two years then you have paid even more.

It makes upgrading easier using the annual option, but once you have found a version you are comfortable with and hacked to your heart's content, upgrading becomes more a pain than a plus and the new features added don't (from the two version changes I have seen in our time) add up to paying so much for it.

BTW: The owned option does include a year of free upgrades.

[Jeseth Cloak]

I guess I'd be inclined to go with the owned license... but right now I don't have much money and would want to make sure that things are all set before I jump the gun. I could afford the money for an owned license, sure, but it would hurt my wallet more than $80 dollars right from the minute I purchase. So like I said, it's going to depend on if I get any support from the other groups, how many groups, how big they are, and if I'll have to increase the hosting package to include their traffic. GJO alone (if they joined) probably gets half as much traffic as SWFans.net, if not more.

[Master Yoghurt]

Well, I have not talked to any of the others, so I would like to hear their opinion, but at first glance, this seems to be a good idea, because the groups will be gathered at one board, rather than spread out like they are now, and we would not have to deal with cheesy ezboard code anymore = much more flexibility.

It would probably take some time discussing all the technicalites involved though, setting it up, board policy etc. Thumbs up from me. :)

[Lilaena De'Ville]

I think its a good idea if the security thing can be worked out. I mean, having GJO and TSE, or even TSE and TBH on the same bulletin board is a hornet's nest waiting to be kicked.

But I bet there's a way to do it, I just don't know it :)

[TheHolo.Net]

Via use of what vBulletin calls “Access Masks” private forums can be set up and their access maintained, though any Admin would have access to change said accesses.

[Jedah Lynch]

I mean, having GJO and TSE, or even TSE and TBH on the same bulletin board is a hornet's nest waiting to be kicked.

Understatement of the year:)

Thats why unless there was an extremely good method to prevent one person from peeping in on another(no matter who says otherwise it would be tempting to most) don't see it happening.


But I bet there's a way to do it, I just don't know it

Where there is a will there is a way.

Of course thats what some say before they end up as road kill so what do I know. :)

[TheHolo.Net]

I would not be surprised if there were the possibility of a very experienced vBulletin hacker being able to come up with a method to restrict the editing of specific access masks to specific admins or even moderators. So that admins/moderators designated for specific subforums (group leaders) could only change the access masks that apply to their subforums. Finding one willing and motivated to do it, is a different matter entirely.

It may also be possible to modify a Moderator's ability to have a good majority of the administrator's capability, including access masks, so that some board-wide features available to the main Admin (ID#1, similar to an ezboard ezOp) would not be available to them all.

[Jeseth Cloak]

Well, that's another thing, this board would force groups to become a bit more trust-worthy with eachother OOC.

[Lilaena De'Ville]

See, that would be a good thing. Something like this could ease up some of the OOC tension between the groups. Or make it worse. Take your pick. :) I'd like to think it would ease it, and that people could go back to having fun together, via blasting each other IC :)

[TheHolo.Net]

Originally posted by Jeseth Cloak
Well, that's another thing, this board would force groups to become a bit more trust-worthy with eachother OOC. I am also inclined to believe the possibilty of such a thing could make for a better OOC relationship/environment. :)

[Jedah Lynch]

I am also inclined to believe the possibilty of such a thing could make for a better OOC relationship/environment. :)

Oh sure kill my fun why dont you:|

Note to self: Eliminate the admins before fun is ruined:p

[Master Yoghurt]

Some good points. One thing, I am not sure if the "who's online" thing works for private forums, but if it does, you would have to be stupid browsing in forums you do not belong.

Like Deville said, OOC wise, it might be a very good thing, because it would bring the groups together and perhaps we learn to trust each other better. :)

[Jeseth Cloak]

That... and having a room where ALL group leaders and senior members can meet and discuss would make communication a MUST, and pretty much easier than pie.

[TheHolo.Net]

Originally posted by Master Yoghurt
Some good points. One thing, I am not sure if the "who's online" thing works for private forums, but if it does, you would have to be stupid browsing in forums you do not belong. I will confirm that the Who's Online within forums feature does function in private forums and invisible users are completely visible to Administators and, with a hack I myself created, also visible to Moderators.

[Jeseth Cloak]

It would be great if every group could trust each other enough to do this. I personally have no problem with it, and that is knowing that the GJO, TSE, TSO, and TGE would all have access to TBH's forums. I don't think that TBH as a whole has any qualms, but I will only speak for myself and not the others.

I would trust each groups appointed Admins enough to expect them not to abuse their power, ever. I'm sure there's a hack out there that can report whenever anyone accessed a private forum, too. That means that if anyone does get too curious for their own good, it would show up in the log file (which I'm sure all the Admins would be checking daily).

[TheHolo.Net]

Originally posted by Jeseth Cloak
I'm sure there's a hack out there that can report whenever anyone accessed a private forum, too. That means that if anyone does get too curious for their own good, it would show up in the log file (which I'm sure all the Admins would be checking daily).I don't believe one exists as of yet and the log file that is built into vBulletin only records admin and mod access to specific vBulletin functions, via listing the PHP files accessed to perform said functions.

I will however have a good look around the hacking forums and see if I am able to locate for sure if a hack that logs access to private forums does or does not already exist.

[Master Yoghurt]

I would trust each groups appointed Admins enough to expect them not to abuse their power, ever.

Yes, same here. I would expect appointed Administrators to be mature persons.



I'm sure there's a hack out there that can report whenever anyone accessed a private forum, too. That means that if anyone does get too curious for their own good, it would show up in the log file (which I'm sure all the Admins would be checking daily).

If you are really paranoid, you could set a script that logs the IP of everyone viewing the page of a locked forum. It is in fact very easy to set up (no need to hack the code), you just include it in the HTML footer or header of the page.

[Master Yoghurt]

Wait a sec, perhaps it does not work after all. This is php not HTML. Never mind. :)

[Lilaena De'Ville]

,...and if that happened, you realize the arguement that would occur!? But I would trust the admins of the separate groups to be RPers that everyone can trust. Like...ME! I'm *so* trustworthy! Give me all the power!

Of course, I also have only a bit of time everyday, IC no one really cares about me...(Hello, TSO? Remember me? The one you hate?) and I'm sleep deprived at the moment and raving about something that I should just shut up about. :p

Anyway, I say we trust people and see what happens. I'm all for it, and will contribute $20 if it happens. I know I told Nup I'd contribute to this board to...haven't yet....still meaning to...

*goes to bed to sleep instead*

[Jeseth Cloak]

Then count me among the really paranoid. I might be trusting, but I'm not stupid and want fail safes, just in case. I'm sure over all a lot of people would agree on that.

[TheHolo.Net]

Originally posted by Master Yoghurt
Wait a sec, perhaps it does not work after all. This is php not HTML. Never mind. :) HTML script can be easily added to footer templates, thus having the desired effect. :)

[Master Yoghurt]

Ok, what I was thinking was, all the stats scripts out on the net which you can download. These may log the IP's of anyone that have viewed the page. :)

[TheHolo.Net]

I just realized something. Implementing such a code on an individual forum basis would require that the forum have its own specific forced style (similar to the Shipyard forums here) so that the templates that the code be added to (yes a counter script would work fine) would only record such stats for that forum and not all forums.

[Nupraptor]

I discussed this with you in the past, Jeseth, and I still don't see it as a very feasible solution. Setting aside the trust issues for a moment, allow me to look at the technical side of this: What host are you planning on using? The combined traffic from the main group boards is fairly large (at least that of SWFans itself), and if you exceed your monthly allotment on a regular basis, you're going to rack up some pretty hefty charges.

To return to the other issues: There are so many problems with the concept of having every group on one board, I hardly think that they can be listed in one thread, much less one post. For example -

There would have to be at least one board-wide admin. This means someone who has the ability to admin each individual group as well. Also, this person would have to shoulder a lot (I cannot stress how much of an understatement this is) of responsibility.

Any kind of hack and major modification would be board-wide, since they involve the editing of the php files that power this thing. So that would mean that major changes would have to be discussed and agreed upon by everybody beforehand. Which also means that, if a specific group wants to implement a change to their board, they'd have to put in a request with the main admin and wait until (s)he can do it.

The group admins could not be given full admin privileges. There's many other problems this would raise besides just giving them access to forums (IMHO, people make much too large a deal out of group locked forums, anyway). A person who wasn't familiar with vB could easily wreak havoc unintentionally and cause the main admin a lot of headaches. Among other things.

I don't know how well I communicated just some of the problems this would involve, but I hope I at least gave you an idea. While I agree that it's a good idea, and would personally love to see it happen, I don't think it's very feasible.

[Jeseth Cloak]

Well, I realized that from our last conversation and so that's why I'm bringing it up here. Every group that wants a part of this can discuss here, and if in the end it's only two groups, then that's fine also. If it's more, than that's great. In any event, this is meant to be an opportunity for everyone to get involved... and for better trust and communication to develop. I was considering the fact that you could in theory script Moderators to have certainly abilities, right? Such as changing custom titles, and adding or renaming sub forums within particular categories? That would go a long way to solving all of these problems.

Also, security precautions would be taken, such as IP logging. It wouldn't happen over night, but over time it would be possible. I planned on getting a 25GB/Month hosting package if I get at least 3 large groups in. TBH really doesn't take in more than 3GB a month anyway, if it even reaches that much. The biggest groups would be the GJO and TSE, so depending on if one of them jumps on the bandwagon I'll revaluate the plan.

I know that I probably can't make everyone happy, but I'll try my best. If no one really goes for the idea, then I'll just be spending less money this holiday season. :)

[Nupraptor]

Well, best of luck. But I see this as not working out and everyone going back to their old boards feeling shafted.

If I thought it'd be that easy, I'd gladly just host every board here. That would prevent the necessity for having to register accounts again and all the other setting-up. Plus, you'd have the benefit of mine and Ogre's experience.

Let me put it this way: If I could figure out how to deal with the issue of bandwith, and If the admins of every group that's to be involved would agree not only to move their board here, but to essentially become "Super-Moderators" instead of admins (understanding that major changes would have to go through someone else first, and that the old boards would essentially have to be shut down), and assuming that the admins here would be willing to put in all the time and effort that it would require to do this properly, then I'd probably be willing to give it a shot.

Did anyone else notice a lot of "If"s and "assuming"s in that last paragraph?

So if you honestly think you can work around all that, then go for it. You have my best of wishes.

[Jeseth Cloak]

Well, the biggest issue I see to be dealt with is trust, and I guess just the bottom line is if the Admins aren't going to trust each other, then don't bother. I'm asking for the $20 dollars to be hosted not really because of the cash, but because I'd rather not have 20 no-name groups trying to be hosted, and essentially just wasting board space and adding a possibility of more problems arising. So, to be direct, this offer is based more towards the larger groups: GJO, TSE, TSO, TCP, TGE, NR, etc.

Since I was hoping it would be an extension of the SWFans.net universe, I was considering giving all the Admins and Mods here the same board rights there, but again, that would be dependant on if more than one group is in this. If it's only TBH in the end, then that only means that I'll be paying for a smaller hosting package and spending less. So in the long run, no one is really losing as long as they make sure they want to do this ahead of time. It's not going to happen for at the least another month, anyway.

[Edit: And about all those things you mentioned, such as boards being shut down, and bandwidth, those are more just adustment issues that would be dealt with as they come along. I don't see that the move itself would be too big of a deal because SWFans.net moved fairly seamless, and the work-force at such a board would not be lacking, as Yog has already offered to help set it up and maintain it, along with myself (who is reading up on vBulletin), and I wouldn't expect you and Ogre to do any work if you didn't offer, but I hope that I'd be able to ask either of you for pointers or help when handling vB issues I'm unfamiliar with if either of you had time.]

[Nupraptor]

Hey, if you're set on doing it, and you have everyone's agreement, there's not a whole lot I can say.

But as a final note, I don't think it's wise to take a "We'll deal with it when we get there" stance. The move here was pretty seemless because I spent several weeks investigating different hosting solutions and other relevant issues. Plus, I had lots and lots of help from Ogre, which I'm not unthankful for. :)

On a plus note: I do think that the groups would become more friendly with each other if you could pull it off.

[TheHolo.Net]

I would be willing to lend my experience and knowledge in helping to set it up. And it may even be possible to set it up so that all the hacks from this board are present on that one, as well as a full import of the user information from our database so that all old users would not need to reregister at the new site.

I think the user import could be done separately from the hacks that we have implemented here as I did, not too long ago, a bit of research regarding importing specific Database tables into a database and I don’t believe any of our installed hacks have made any changes to that particular one. It would need to be a version of the same make since the encryption of users PWs in the database has been modified in the release we are using to the most popular encryption scheme MD5, but I do believe that this version being run here, is still the most current one available.

[ReaperFett]

Well, that's another thing, this board would force groups to become a bit more trust-worthy with eachother OOC

that or it creates huge arguments forcing even more people too leave, destroying SWFans. But hey, thats just teething problems, eh?

[TheHolo.Net]

This is completely optional and not mandatory. I don't see why such issues would necessarily hold true as fact or even necessarily be a possibility. Ezboard will still exist to turn to in the event of a falling out of some kind, at least most likely.

[ReaperFett]

mayne people leave RPING because of things like this. Not a board, RPing. So, this leave it more likely to happen. And remember, if the group didnt want to leave, they'd be an outcast, not wantng to stay while the group does. They'd leave

[Jeseth Cloak]

That's assuming the worst. I think that there have been less people leaving RPing since SWFans was moved to this new board. For the user's, life would be the same as usual (only easier), and only Admins and Mods would notice a lot of change to adjust to.

[ReaperFett]

Jes, you have to assume the worst. You cant live as an optimist, it'll just bite you on the ****

[Jeseth Cloak]

"Assume the best, prepare for the worst."

[ReaperFett]

whoever first said that was never succesful :)

[Morgan Evanar]

Fett: Aside from "witty" retorts and warnings of people leaving, I don't really see how you've contributed to the topic.

I have a very "witty" retort to that, but in the interest of furthering the discussion, I'm not going to use it.

------
There is a lot of research and discussion to be done before anyone commits to anything, especially in regards to hosting the forums, and who runs what.

The facts are as follows: EZboard's reliability, features, ease of use and modification are questionable at best, horrendous at worst.

How many account deletions have there been at the current SWFans out of the blue? None.

Ogre's account alone has probably been hosed fifty times, and Nup's account has been declared missing about 20+ times.

I find those numbers rather telling. SWFans VB, aside from some early misteps (which can be avoided with experinced admins, which would have already offered lending us a hand) the comparative reliablity and not to mention features simply stomp what we have available at EZ-board.

[ReaperFett]

Im contributing by saying something that I say is a major problem. The majority isn't "witty" retorts. Now, sorry if you dont like that fact I disagree, I mean, how dare I disagree with Little Mr Perfect eh? Go spin

[Jeseth Cloak]

Fett, your concerns are important, but they've been acknowledged and aren't going to be dismissed, so you don’t have to restate them every other post.

[Darth Viscera]

If you're going to do this, I'll contribute $20 and move TGE there.

First, though, I'd like to know if only those people whom I specify could enter TGE private forums, with exception to the board admin, who'd apparently be able to go anywhere. Would it be possible to assign sub-administrators, with only the power to access/edit their own forums, and exclude all forums from them that they shouldn't be able to access?

Would different forums still be able to use customized tables, like at GJO and TGE and Nupraptor and Eve's board?

I think that this would be a good idea, if it can be implemented.

[Jeseth Cloak]

From what I understand you can even lock the Admin out, but he'd be able to unlock the forum. IP loggers will be used if they can be implemented properly to assure privacy. I'm sure with some work you can get the subforums to have a uniform look. :)

[Champion of the Force]

Hmmm, sounds interesting, though the I would have the same concerns as Nup stated earlier concerning security and the like. That's the main reason why suggestions of hosting the groups here directly on SWFans were squashed.

But if you're determined, good luck anyway. :)

Out of curiosity though, what would you do if someone tried to setup a new group? Would you automatically let them setup their own forums if they achieved the 5+ members rule, or would extra requirements have to be thrown in as well? What if the group founder can't pay the $20 fee?

[Jeseth Cloak]

Actually, I mentioned above that a group would need at least 10 members, and if they couldn't afford the cost then it would depend on the group itself (as to whether they received hosting or not), as the initial groups involved would need to discuss if they were welcomed or not. The reason I'd rather have it done that way is that: Bandwidth issues won’t be severe if I know the traffic we'll be getting, more or less. It'll keep 20+ nonsense groups from attempting to get forums and muck things up. It'll be more fair to the initial pioneers of this idea who would have taken the leap to make this thing work.

[Champion of the Force]

Actually, I mentioned above that a group would need at least 10 members, and if they couldn't afford the cost then it would depend on the group itself.
You did. Sorry - I got sidetracked by Reaper's comments and missed it. :x

[imported_Firebird1]

I don't think this is a good idea...

I don't like basicaly merging all the boards like this. It would take too much time and effort and there would be major problems that could arize if it did happen. Right now TSE has Gold CSC, and that will last for awhile. And when it runs out again, we will see how much it costs and then take other options...like Ikonboard for example. So I don't see why Jes wants to host everyone elses.

And it really doesn't matter where your board is located, if you RolePlay here, you are apart of this community.

[Lilaena De'Ville]

Firebird, its not like Jeseth has an ulterior motive, that he
wants to host everyone elses. I see this as a genuine opportunity.

Of course, if this can be worked out, then couldn't we just host the groups *here*, like Nup said? Even if there are just one or two...and if they contributed 20 dollars...it would save us having to register again, right?

[Jeseth Cloak]

I'm offering; If you don't like the offer, then you don't have to take it. Like I said, it's not saving me any money, I'm doing it to be a nice guy because I HATE ezboard and can imagine that everyone else does as well.

As for why not do it here, well the groups combined probably pull in as much bandwidth as SWFans does by itself, or at least close. The hosting package to do such a thing would be immense and cost quite a lot of money. If anything, I'd be willing to fork over the money to Nup so that he could save up to get us a dedicated server, but for right now I'm only offering to see what groups are willing to give this an experimental go.

So far TBH and TGE are the only ones up for it, TSE is obviously not going, so I'm still waiting on the GJO and TSO. If in the end it's only two small groups such as TGE and TBH, I'll be paying less, so it's no way a loss on my part. :p

[Morgan Evanar]

Perhaps we could share hosts, but maintain our own forums?

IE:

http://swboards/tge/ is TGE, and as such, TGE only touches TGE stuff

http://swboards/tbh/ would be a seperate entity unto itself as well, each with their own complete database etc.

I think the main detail would be to work this out with vBulletin, but if we were allowed to impliment that, it would be sweet.

[TheHolo.Net]

Seperate licenses would have to be purchased for each set of boards, per vBulletin's TOS.

[Morgan Evanar]

Urg, nevermind.

[TheHolo.Net]

It would still be more cost effective than CSC in the long run and is a workable idea.

[Live Wire]

well I cant speak for all of TSO as we havent discussed it. but we will discuss it Im sure.


But on a personal level I feel TSO would be better of where we are. It sounds like a wonderful idea but I have serious reservations. I think TSO prospers the most when its seperate.

[TSO Naval Officer]

well I'm 100% for the idea, and think its great :)

So if I can scrounge some change, you can add TCP to that mix :)

Hopefully TSO too...pending discussion.

[Champion of the Force]

Of course, if this can be worked out, then couldn't we just host the groups *here*, like Nup said? Even if there are just one or two...and if they contributed 20 dollars...it would save us having to register again, right?
As Jeseth stated, the costs involved with moving the groups here could be pretty excessive.

In addition to cost, issues such as group security etc. would have to be completely overhauled - both for the groups and SWFans in general.

If each group only wanted 1-2 forums each that weren't private we could have probably worked something out, but anything beyond that will probably be to much of a headache. :x

[Jeseth Cloak]

Well, If a group purchases it's own vBulletin license I am more than willing to host them as well.

[Santa Claus]

I was just going to ask what TCP was, and then ask if the Cizeracks could get in on the deal as well...I'm just a moron who's listened to more than his fair share of Christmas music...don't mind me!

Nothing to see here folks!

(Get TSO in on the deal too, Naval Officer see if you can convince them. "Prospering" might be a matter of personal opinion.)

[imported_Firebird1]

Okay, then howabout an alternitive...

www.ikonboard.com allows free everything just about and can be uploaded onto a server.

[Jeseth Cloak]

If any group wants to use Ikonboard, they could be hosted too. I looked at it and rather like it, but vB I'm a bit more familiar with, as are most of the people who are going to help me set this up, which is why i decided to go with it. Besides, I already bought an owned license... :\

[Lilaena De'Ville]

*pops him one* Jeseth you nut.

Can I host my personal board there if I give you $30? ;) puhleeze? (I am only half joking, btw)

[Rama]

My concerns have been voiced by Nup, Fett, and Dainfienf..........Atreyu.(YEAH THATS WHAT IM GONNA CALL HIM! YOU GOT A PROBLEM WITH THAT?>=( LOL!)


and think it'll cause more problems then it'll do good. And I like TSE were it is.

[Champion of the Force]

and Dainfienf..........
I don't recall registering that name. :lol

[Darth Vader]

You can say that it might cause problems, but the only way to minimalize or eliminate said problems is to actually address specifics, and lay them on the table.

So...what potential problems are concerning you?

[Rama]

Originally posted by Davwj

I don't recall registering that name. :lol

Well you should. >:

[Jeseth Cloak]

I think Rama's concerns are mostly security and privacy issues, as well as the sharing of administration rights and moderator powers... Which is the basics of what Nup said. Well, if TSE does ever reconsider the doors will be open. For now I guess whatever communities participate will get a chance to help test this new idea.

[Rama]

That and this idea isn't gonna work.

[Jubei SaDherat Vader]

That isn't constructive.

I can say that the Detroit Lions are gonna win the Super Bowl too. I can say it very convincingly, enough. But without anything to support, its just an empty statement.

You say its not gonna work. Its as valid as me saying that it will, but in order to diagnose it all, we really gotta find the reasons why we think so.

[Jeseth Cloak]

Well, we'll find out if it's going to work or not in about a month. :) If it doesn't work, then you can say "i told you so." If it does work, then I'm not going to say "i told you so," I'll just be satisfied that it worked and keep my mouth shut.

[Rama]

I could only be so lucky.

[Taylor Millard]

You know Rama. If you don't like it. Then don't associate yourself with it. Speak with the TSE council (I assume there's a council of many and not a council of one) and if they agree with you, then great, TSE won't be on VBulletin.

And if they don't, then tough. Live with it or come up with your own idea. It's really not that hard is it? Okay? Thanks.