The New Sith Order?

[Jedi Master Carr]

I was just wondering does anybody think its possible for the Sith to return in the books or in the distant future? The reason why I ask is for two reasons one somebody on theforce.net claimed that it would undermind Anakin's sacrifice and second I was just wondering if it was even possible. The first thing to me is wrong because what Anakin did was destroy Palpatine's reign and that version of the sith from the galaxy. The Sith were destroyed before first during the hyperspace war and second time was with the death of Exar Kun and then at the battle of Russan where 20,000 sith were killed (this is all from the SW chronology by the way) so really I think the sith could return as long as it nothing to do with Palpatine (a la another Palpatine clone pops up or something).

Now can they return to me is the better question. There are no sith left really or are there? I read in SW chronologies of a sith Lord Naga Sadow who was the sith overlord during the Hyperspace war, well after his forces were defeated he went to Yavin and quoting SW Chronology, "Using Sith techonolgy and socery, he managed to cocoon himself in a chamber that placed him in suspended animation--this in antipation of a later day, when someone would pick up the dark teaches and bring about the new Sith Golden Age that fallen Dark Lord Marka Ragnos had foretold." Now there is no further mention of Naga in the rest of the book nor does it say he died in the SW encyclopedia (Unless somebody else knows what happened to him), so could this be a plot hole waiting to be unleashed? Is it possible now that the Vong have captured Yavin that they might come across him somewhere and release him and use him to conquer the Jedi? To me it is the best way they could return and it is possible that this could be the golden age his master taught him.

[ReaperFett]

I heard Lucas said there would be no new Sith, he didnt want too much of them. Backstories yes, but not old.

However, if you follow continuality, there is Luminya, think another too

[Jedi Master Carr]

When did Lucas say this? I don't see why it would it matter as long as Palpatine is not involved because really the Sith are just worshipers of the dark side and nothing more. Also if they brought back Naga they would be bringing in a Sith Lord that had nothing to do with Anakin or Palpatine and would be a problem with the whole balance of the force thing. As far as Luminiya, is she a full Sith or just a dark side user? I just don't know much about her.

[ReaperFett]

I dont know much about it, just the common things said :)


Apparently, Lucas has very few rules. One is no ressurecting Vader, another that. Dont know why.

ANd I think Luminya is a Sith

[Jedieb]

It shouldn't be too hard for an EU writer to come up with a scenario that could bring a Sith into the NJO or any other future EU stories. They could do something as simple as a Dark Jedi stumbling across a Sith holocron. From there the story could be taken in just about any direction. The new Sith could decide that 2 were not enough and that the old ways of the Sith were better. So with some cloning cylinders he could crank out a Sith Army and you've got a whole new challenge for the post-Vong era.

You know what I wouldn't mind seeing? A comic series devoted to past Sith exploits. They've been in hiding for millenia, they could create dozens of cool Sith characters. Think of all the havoc the Sith could have unknowingly been responsible for; civil wars, uprisings, etc.

[Doc Milo]

How about this: The New Sith see the galaxy as rightfully theres, so they team up with the Jedi to cleanse the galaxy of the Vong and then they betray the Jedi....

[Jedieb]

Excellent... you've got to have some new menace once the Vong are gone. What better threat than the rebirth of the Sith? And who better to lead the new Sith order than.... KYP!

[Doc Milo]

Nah. My choice would be ... Leia. Let's make it really traumatic! And give some credence of foreshadowing to: "If you won't turn to the dark side then perhaps she will!" :)

[RHJediKnight]

I think it would be pretty cool if they brought the Sith back. Bigtime Sith, not that stupid two-only thing, like you already said. :) I've always found the old Sith to be an interesting group, and I don't see why they couldn't be brought back.

I'd never heard about that Naga Sadow story. That was in the Essential Chronology? I'll have to browse through that again, I must have missed that part. But if that is true, I think that would be perfect. Some Dark Jedi, post-YV invasion, is exploring old Sith relics and stuff on the remains of Yavin 4 (you said that's where Naga went to, right?), and he (or she) somehow stumbles on that coccoon thing you mentioned and awakens Sadow, who promptly Sithifies him/her and begins building the order back up into what it once was, giving the Jedi a real conflict once again.

This would be a great idea, and I think the best time for it to happen is maybe when Ben is older--in his teens, or maybe even early 20s, this could be his chance to make his mark in the annals of galactic history, leading the newest generation of Jedi Knights (along with his father--maybe, or do you think he'd be too old by this time?--and the rest of the Jedi of course) against the new Sith, led of course by the reawakened Naga Sadow.

Of course, I highly doubt that Del Rey would ever do a storyline like this. Plus, people might criticize them if they did, saying they were being lazy and unoriginal by bringing back the Sith just to make even more money, blah blah blah...but I think that's an excellent idea.

[Jedi Master Carr]

That would be cool I think, and Naga Sadow is completely unknown so he would work, at the various least I wouldn't be surprised if Dark Horse did it maybe they could call the Second Golden Age of the Sith or the Return of the Sith set 20 years down the road like you said.

[Seth Darkserpent]

It would have to be a bit more then twenty years to make sense. I like this idea, but I'd rather have the Dark Jedi around then the Sith. It was cool that there were Dark Jedi in Star by Star, save the fact they weren't allowed to use their cool powers to destroy any Vong :(

[Neros Longstreet]

This is all true.. and I would prefer it if this resurgence of the old Sith would take place post-Vong, when the galaxy is as normal as it can be again. But, something large has to happen.. I mean, in past Sith conquests, nothing hugely important happened.. well, to the characters in that time it was important; like Ulic Qel Droma being turned to the Dark Side and Sunrider taking away his force abilities. So, I think, like the Vong, that during the Sith conquests that a main character should die like Chewbacca died. So it would leave a lasting impression on the SW EU. And, just like the Vong, a few planets should be classified as inhabitable afterwards or be destroyed. Not just another mini-story.

[Hart]

Would the return of a Sith be feasible? After all, the long line of Sith stemming from Bane has been cut when Vader died. And even if another line of Sith appears out of hiding, how could they possibly think up a way to make a Sith, whether it's a master or apprentice, be a match for Luke? The most powerful being in the universe is a Jedi now, not a Sith, so any darksiders would have a short life-expectancy if they try to do anything big.

[Jedi Master Carr]

That is why I would use Naga Shadow, he was extrmely powerful during the Golden Age of the Sith and he could come back and tempt some of the jedi who are flirting with the darkside (Jainia is one obvisoly) then he could have an army of sith and take on the Jedi that would be more interesting, I think and I agree it is probably better if it takes place after the NJO.

[Hart]

One question: Wouldn't it be AWESOME to see Luke Skywalker become a Sith? And this time for good. HE would be the ultimate conquerer. I don't know how they can make that happen, but hey, it's worth drooling over.

[Jedi Master Carr]

Ok looks like I might be on to something about the return of the sith. According to SW gamer # 8 The Dark lord Lumiya had a confrontation with the Vong in Imperial space. According to what I read on theforce.net discussion board she was trying to steal some of the pollen that wipped out some of the Vong in Dark Tide: Ruin. Its not clear what she is up to but I wonder if they brought her back as a hint of whats to come maybe she will try to lure Jaina to become her apprentice.

[ReaperFett]

It's nice to see the original red headed person from the Empire who went to kill Luke but fell in love with him make an appearence :)

[Nichos Marr]

BTW, Hart...Luke did turn to the Dark Side, quite a few years prior to NJO. Doubt he'll turn to the Dark Side again, since he's been successfully made into a pansy :p

[ReaperFett]

And we can blame Zahn for this :)



However, I agree with Genghis, Rebirth indicates he could go

[Jedi Master Carr]

Yeah I saw that on there, that would be a major shock. Still wouldn't that really make Vader's redeamtion meaningless if he went bad? I mean if the sith returned that would be one thing but if Luke fell like Anakin that is completely different. I rather see Lumiya return and take Jainia as an apprentice that would look better and not make Vader's Sacrifice look less.

[Seth Darkserpent]

According to some people here, Darth Vader's sacrifice was already shotten down by the Dark Empire.

Now I'm really really confused.

What did Darth Vader sacrifice again? and why?

[Doc Milo]

Not Darth Vader's sacrifice.

Anakin Skywalker's redemption was nullified in Dark Empire -- but only IF you actually count Dark Empire (I just ignore it ever happened.)

[ReaperFett]

If you ignore DE though, you ignore it all

[Doc Milo]

No. Just anywhere Luke's turn to the Dark Side and the Clone Emperor is mentioned.

In fact, I believe the Clone Emperor business will eventually be contradicted by the movies, when we find out exactly what clones are and what their limitations are. I think the movies will make it clear that cloning can't be used for "soul-hopping."

I also don't give much credence to comic books. I count them as the lowest rung in the EU ladder. If a book, for example, contradicts a comic, I believe the book. If the movie contradicts the book, I believe the movie. I rate the comic books on level with the video games when it comes to degrees of canon.

[ReaperFett]

For me, and most, The EU is the EU. End :)

[Jedi Master Carr]

Though the books it seems has included the clone emperor stuff as fact, they have mentioned it several times. I have never read all of it so, I have no opinion one way or the other about it. As far as the cloning stuff goes there could always be a book later on that tells how Palpatine improved on the cloning technology. I guess another possibility is to use Mara's theory (In the Hand of Thrawn Duology) she felt that he was an imposter, but that theory has never been mentioned again so I guess that was just Mara's belief.

[Jedieb]

The books rarely acknowledge the Clone Emperor storyline because it's such a poor one. That Mara comment JMC mentioned is a perfect example. Why didn't she come back when the clone Emperor surfaced? Because Zahn hadn't created the character yet! The books have only recognized major plot points because they have to to fit in the EU. But their are specific scenes and panels that are so out there that you'd never see them in a SW movie or book. It all depends on the medium. Comic book artists have their way of telling a story and so do authors and film makers. I like Doc's heirarchy. Anyway, we all know only the MOVIES really count, so what's the point of discussing it any further? ;)

As for cloning and AOTC. Lucas is going to address cloning without any regard for Dark Empire. He's not going to change his story because of what a comic has to say. Whatever he says though, EU authors will just crank out some far fethced explanation to justify their little universe. For the most part, their work will go unnoticed by the vast majority of movie fans and most SW fans in general.

[ReaperFett]

Actually Eb, She was. Veitch was going to use her, but Zahn wasnt having any of it.


Why didnt he call her? She was a failure! Why would he WANT her?


In my little view of this, Mara doesnt understand why she wouldnt be, so ASSUMES he is fake. Im not listening to Zahn trying to diss others work :)


And Eb, far fetched? You mean like as far fetched as Vader, Luke and Leia being in the same family? :)

[Jedieb]

And Eb, far fetched? You mean like as far fetched as Vader, Luke and Leia being in the same family?

Yeah, a man and women having twins is quite far fetched. What are you, a Vong? :lol


Actually Eb, She was. Veitch was going to use her, but Zahn wasnt having any of it.

Why would Veitch have wanted to use her? Maybe because it makes perfect sense that ANY storyline involving a resurrected Emperor would have to involve the Emperor's hand. But something as arbitrary as an author protecting one of his characters determines the outcome of a major EU storyline.

Ask a hundred people who Luke Skywalker and Darth Vader are and 90% will know who you're talking about. Ask another hundred who Kyp Durron and Mara Jade are and 99% won't know what the heck you're talking about. It just doesn't matter to the vast majority out there.

[ReaperFett]

Oh, I think Mara is well known. She has been in a game as well remember. Not 99, 90 more likely, maybe even 80

[Jedieb]

80% of the people on the street don't even know who McCallum or Ben Burt are. They're in the dark about EU and film background characters as well. They just don't know. Have you ever seen one of those Leno bits where he asks simple question to even simpler people on the street? Details we love just aren't that big of a deal to most. I could ask my 5th grade class who Mara Jade was and not a single one of them would know who I was talking about. My own wife doesn't know who she is and she's been with me for over a decade now.

[Jedi Master Carr]

I don't know about average people, but I bet at least 50 % of SW fans know who she is, I remember a few years ago she made the top 20 characters in an issue of SW insider so it does show she is the most popular EU character.

[Jedieb]

Mara is a very popular EU character. You're right, I'd bet a good deal of SW fans know who she is, but I think there's a difference between recognizing a character and reading every novel she's in. If you branch out to average movie fans then the name recognition will drop even farther.

[Jedi Master Carr]

I agree with you there Jedieb, I doubt there are very many if any non SW fans that know who she is, but at the same time I doubt there are many non-SW fans who know who Boba Fett is.

[ReaperFett]

Hey, we may have some news


Check this out (http://www.starwars.com/databank/character/lumiya/index.html)

That was put up today, along with other villains of the EU(Thrawn, Xizor, Daala, Brakkis and Exar Kun as well). WHY did this appear?

Long shot I know, but why would a character whos only recent uses be a Gamer article and the Marvel reprints get a slot?

[Jedi Master Carr]

I thought that was very cool. I wonder if there is a plan to all this. First they say that the Marvel comics is part of the contiunity then they put her in a SW gamer issue and now this, is an appearance in the NJO next? I think it would be cool to have a Sith Lord around, but who would be her apprentice?

[Jedieb]

Was Lumiya strictly a Gamer character? It sounds like she was tied into many of the comic book characters like C. Jax. I'd love to read the stories in which she took Luke on.

[ReaperFett]

She was pretty major in the old comics, before changing her name to Mara Jade :)

[Jedi Master Carr]

LOL, but really I hope they bring her back it would be cool to see a female sith lord running around taking on Jedi.