The Backlash COntnues - ShowBizData vs. HollywoodReporter.

[imported_QuiGonJ]

Sunday night, the Fox television network presented The Phantom Menace. Just wondering, did you watch any of it? :D

I did. It appears while it was pan-and-scan, it's uncut and has no stupid bug in the corner of it.

[darth_mcbain]

Just finished... Watching R2-D2 - beneath the Dome now... Looks pretty funny... :lol

[Jedi Master Carr]

That R2 thing was hilarious I am going to have download that to see the rest of it. I watched the whole thing, but I must say I now apreciate it more on DVD.

[BUFFJEDI]

I watched about half of it.I loved the R2 beneath the dome:) it was funny:D onlly bad thing about it was Carrie looked BAD :(

[JMK]

Yeah, well she's still 10000000 times hotter than that man-beast Bea Arthur ever was!

Beneath the Dome was hilarious though!

[BUFFJEDI]

:lol

Man Beast!!?? Sir You have insulted a lady,you deserve a good thrashing.I demand satisfaction!!!!!!!

Bea come here I need satisfaction!
:D

[darth_mcbain]

I wonder what Bea Arthur would think if she ever came across these forums... :)

I was glad to have watched it, because until last night I hadn't seen the pan&scan version. At least now I can say with conviction that I've seen both versions, for better or worse... The widescreen is so much better. Especially on the opening crawl - It says "...e Phantom Men..." when it first shows up.... Sounds like a porn title... :lol

[RHJediKnight]

I watched most of it. Dear God, does that movie look ugly in pan & scam. I'm used to watching it in widescreen, that was the first time I ever saw it in p & s. Eww. This is why I'm a strong supporter of widescreen TVs, widescreen-only DVDs, etc.

[Jedieb]

I saw bits and pieces and caught what I really wanted to see, the R2 special. It was pretty funny, almost as funny as the Viking's offense last night. It was weird to finally see the pan and scan version. It was neat to see the movie fill up the screen but very distracting to look for people and objects that had been cut to fit the screen.

[CMJ]

The R2 Beneath the dome cracked me up. I laughed several times in fact...I wanna see the whole thing.

[BUFFJEDI]

I really do like the pan-scan.I guess it's just meO_o

but of course wider is better:D

[darth_mcbain]

I can't stand the Pan&Scan... It is one thing to have it formatted to your TV and cutting out the sides, but I don't like it where they pan the whole image to try to include the side shots. It just re-emphasizes the fact that you aren't seeing the whole thing.

[BUFFJEDI]

:mneh picky ,picky picky;)

[Jedi Master Carr]

I think the wide screen is better too especially on a big screen TV, you can't beat that except in a theater of course.

[Jedieb]

In case anyone was wondering how TPM did in the ratings here it goes. It came in second to 60 minutes during its first hour (7-8PM EST), and then went on to win each subsequent hour. Nothing earth shattering, but a decent performance. It probably won't come in the top ten, but it should come in the top 20 for the week. Here's some more in depth info:

Once again, Sunday night belonged to CBS and FOX with CBS taking the night with a 10.0 rating/15 share and FOX in second with a 9.7/15. ABC was third with an 8.7/13 while NBC trailed with a 6.8/10. The WB rounded out the networks with its comedies taking a 2.7/4.

At 7 p.m., the Oakland Raiders at the New York Giants took "NFL Football" to No. 1 for CBS with a 12.2/20, while the first half of "60 Minutes" at 7:30 held on to a significant amount of its lead-in with an 11.7/18 (average for the hour, 12.0/19). The first hour of the television premiere of "Star Wars: Episode One -- The Phantom Menace" averaged an 8.6/14 for FOX (9.6/14 for 7 to 9:30 p.m.), while a repeat of "The Santa Clause" on ABC came in third (8.8/13 average for 7 to 9 p.m.). NBC's "Weakest Link" was fourth with a 5.4/9, while The WB's "Ripley's Believe It or Not!" came in last for the hour.

At 8 p.m., FOX took the lead, with ABC moving up to second place. CBS dipped to third place with the second half of "60 Minutes," 10.4/16, and the first 30 minutes of the Meg Ryan, Tom Hanks movie "You've Got Mail," 7.3/11 (9.1/14 average from 8:30 to 11 p.m.) averaging an 8.9/14 for the eight o'clock hour. NBC took fourth place with special "Law & Order" averaging a 7.1/11. The WB comedies "The Steve Harvey Show," 3.2/5, and "Nikki," 2.7/4, averaged a 3.0/5 for the hour.

FOX stayed in the lead at 9 p.m. with the conclusion of "Phantom Menace," 10.7/15, and the mockumentary "R2D2: Beneath the Dome," 10.1/15. NBC saw its highest ratings of the night for "Law & Order: Criminal Intent," 9.2/14, and CBS' movie built some steam. John Hannah concluded his two-episode arc on ABC's "Alias," 6.6/10, and the WB comedies "Off Centre" and "Nikki" leveled off with a 2.4/3 each.

ABC saw its highest ratings for the night at 10 p.m., taking a 10.8/17 for "The Practice" while the CBS movie "You've Got Mail" culminated with a 10.0/16 for the ten o'clock hour. NBC lost quite a chunk of its 9 p.m. audience with a second "Weakest Link" taking a 5.8/10.

[Jedi Master Carr]

Strange the Hollywood reporter said that TPM won the night, though maybe it did I guess it averaged a little over a 10 which is pretty I guess since most of the people that like the movie probably already own in on Video/DVD but there could be a few who don't I guess.

[Jedieb]

Yeah I saw that Hollywood Reporter article. It was a bit on the cheesy side. The writer used words like "hyperspace", "blasted", etc. TPM had a strong showing, but it wasn't really that impressive. By comparison a first run episode of ER or Friends would draw in around a 17 rating/29 share to TPM's 10-11 rating/15 share. Still, it was number 1 for most of Sunday night and helped Fox score wins in key demographics. All in all, a good night and it'll probably rank somewhere between 11-15 for the week.

[Jedi Master Carr]

I noticed that it was a little cheesy. Actually I think if they had released it when they were suppose to (Easter) it would have gotten better ratings. The release of the DVD I think hurt it some. Also I didn't care for the promos I didn't think Fox pushed it enough (unless that was their strategy) although the stuff on the football telecast was pretty cool especially with the lightsabers crashing during the postgame show. I also think they should have put the Forbidden Love trailer on it and maybe even advertised that it could have helped it get even better ratings.

[imported_QuiGonJ]

http://dailynews.yahoo.com/htx/nm/20011127/re/television_ratings_dc_2.html

Of course the article is spiked with negativity, but here ya go with the good stuff.

"Compared with all movies on all networks, ``Phantom Menace'' earned the best 18-49 rating since part one of CBS miniseries ''Jesus'' in May 2000 and the highest 18-34 score (prelim 7.3/20) since NBC's ``Men in Black'' in November 1999."

"Last season, all-time, box-office champ ``Titanic'' sailed off with a 6.9/15 in adults 18-49 on NBC, but it had aired numeroustimes prior on HBO."

[imported_QuiGonJ]

well, at least it beat Titanic by a full ratings point, 7.9 to 6.9. I was so happy about that I made a thread in the Box Office forum about it.

[Jedieb]

I'm probably going to merge this with the Film's TPM Broadcast thread.

The ratings weren't earth shattering, but they were pretty solid for a Sunday movie. Good job all around.

[JMK]

but of course wider is better

Yep, it's for sure. He LOVES Bea Arthur. :lol

[darth_mcbain]

Nice, JMK :lol

I think I'm forever scarred... Every time I see Bea Arthur on TV now, I'm gonna think of buff and his mad obsession... :(

[BUFFJEDI]

You guy's

I don't know what to do with you :evil

if you guy's are at the convention, I'm going to hang around you 24 7 with a t-shirt with my love on it.and carry a sign that reads.


Official Bea Arthur Fan Club:)

me and bea last night:spank

[darth_mcbain]

You know, Buff... That's an image I just didn't need... :o

[BUFFJEDI]

sorry:lol :lol :lol :lol :lol

[darth_mcbain]

Which one is you and which one is Bea? :lol

[BUFFJEDI]

:lol :lol

She's the Manly one:smokin



you bad Mc Bain:evil

[darth_mcbain]

Just havin' a little fun with ya... ;)

[BUFFJEDI]

Oh I know:D ) But I do love my Bea


:crush :spank :crush :spank :crush :spank :crush :spank

[BUFFJEDI]

When she is over,I should use my Web cam:angel :lol :lol :lol

Ok Ok I'll stop;) Don't want to scare JMK off :p . But she is HOT!!!:)

[imported_QuiGonJ]

JediEb, given the TPM v. Titanic battle was the point of this board originally, I thought it deserved a thread of it's own. :(

[Jedieb]

Sorry QuiGonJ, but we've gone through a whole "let's keep the board tidy" revival here. I'm just tryin' to do my job! PLEASE FORGIVE ME! We're trying to keep it more of a SW board then a SW V. anything in particular board.

LOL JMK, wider is better. :lol

buff, I was with you right up until the t-shirt. You're on your own now!

[Darth23]

Two articles about TPM's apperance on FOX - I'm assuming they're using the same data - I'm not that up on tv ratings issues. They seem to have a different slant, though.

The worst part of ShowizData's article id the headline:




From ShowBizData.com (http://www.showbizdata.com):

PHANTOM MENACE FAILS TO DRAW HUGE AUDIENCE
Today's Headlines
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Fox's premiere telecast of the box-office blockbuster Star Wars Episode 1: The Phantom Menace produced solid if not spectacular ratings for the network Sunday night, giving it a win among 18-48 year olds. In overall households, however, it placed second to CBS. Nevertheless, the big lure of the movie for younger viewers put Fox in a position to challenge NBC for a sweeps win in that key demo for the month. CBS averaged a 10.0 rating and a 15 share for Sunday night, followed by Fox with a 9.7/15. ABC landed in third place with an 8.7/13, while NBC trailed with a 6.8/10.



This is HollywoodReporter.com's article - the full version.



From HollywoodReporter.com (http://www.hollywoodreporter.com/hollywoodreporter/frontpage/brief_display.jsp?vnu_content_id=1116989):


Fox's 'Phantom' menaces film-heavy Sunday
Nov. 27, 2001
By Cynthia Littleton

Fox was the primetime master Sunday as its world TV premiere airing of "Star Wars: Episode I -- The Phantom Menace" blew away the competition on the final Sunday of the November sweep.

Fox's 7-10 p.m. airing of "Phantom Menace" averaged 17.6 million viewers and a 7.9 rating/18 share in the adults 18-49 demographic, according to preliminary estimates from Nielsen Media Research. Fox won the night in adults 18-34, teens and other key young demos. "Phantom Menace" opened up with a solid 14.4 million viewers and a 6.4/17 in the demo at 7 p.m., peaking from 9-9:30 p.m. with 19.4 million viewers and an 8.7/19 in adults 18-49.

ABC ran second for the night on the strength of the Tim Allen starrer "The Santa Clause" (15.9 million, 5.5/13) and 10 p.m. drama "The Practice" (16.1 million, 6.0/14). But ABC's new drama "Alias" (11.1 million, 4.8/10) took a big dive in the 9 p.m. hour against the heat of "Phantom Menace."

CBS started out the night with a football overrun and wound up placing third in total viewers and adults 18-49 (14.4 million, 4.1/10). The eye network's 8:30-11 p.m. airing of the Meg Ryan-Tom Hanks theatrical "You've Got Mail" got off to a slow start but perked up to second place behind "Practice" in the 10-11 p.m. hour.

NBC had a slow night all around (10.5 million, 3.5/8), but new 9 p.m. drama "Law & Order: Criminal Intent" (14 million, 4.6/10) continued to show some spunk, building on its 8 p.m. lead-in (a "Law & Order" rerun) to rank second in the 9-10 p.m. hour behind "Phantom Menace."




OK, so TPM kicked butt, but it's a failure because it "failed to draw a HUGE audience". W T F???

[ReturnOfTheCB]

Just like always...even if everyone in America with a television had watched TPM, those morons probably would've still called it a failure because more people didn't go buy TVs to watch it...I still hate the fact that TPM is always called a failure for whatever it does, yet we don't hear the end of how wonderful Harry Potter is doing...

[darth_mcbain]

Yeah, if I end up going to the IN convention and see someone wearing that shirt, I might just have to walk on by without introducing myself... ;) j/k

[darth_mcbain]

It really is too bad... The bar for what Star Wars is supposed to do is set so ridiculously high. They put it on the air and then complain when it only dominates the evening lineup. They are probably disappointed and will be having staff meetings to discuss why people didn't call up other stations and tell them to go @#^@$^ themselves. "Maybe if we had done a marketing angle like this, people would have destroyed the transmitters for the other stations..."

Just stupid - it dominated the evening, shouldn't that be enough?!
:huh

[JonathanLB]

I was looking at this too. Variety has another article.

Basically, here are the facts from what I read:

TPM was the biggest network TV premiere (for a movie) in the last 18 months. It dominated the evening, did excellent for the younger audiences but pulled many adults too.

TPM didn't beat The Lost World's premiere on television, which apparently people think it should have.

TPM creamed Titanic badly in ratings, very badly.


As for the TPM didn't beat LW thing, well... TPM made double as much in theaters. It sold probably two times as many videos, and probably more than two times as many DVDs. Probably about five times as many DVDs. So, all of that leaves a lot fewer people who would actually want to see a film that they have either already seen recently or already have on DVD/VHS. Why would I watch the network TV premiere of TPM? I'm not an idiot here. I have a great DVD and can watch it commercial free anytime. I see it as blasphemy to put commercials between a Star Wars film. It is actually insulting. Any other movie, eh, it does ruin the flow, but it's marginally ok. Star Wars? Nah, you're going to hell if you put commercials in between a SW film! :)

Seriously, though, I think, to be fair to Titanic too, when a movie makes as much as TPM (and Titanic), there aren't nearly as many people left to see it on TV. A more moderately popular film like LW is bound to have better ratings if you ask me. It was still a huge blockbuster at $220+ million, but also there were clearly many people who saw the first and didn't go to the second, so all of those people were likely to have some interest in the second film possibly. I just think you are better off with a mid-ranged blockbuster like MIB (also beat TPM barely) than a full-fledged phenomenon like Titanic or TPM. Both were at a disadvantage versus movies not as widely viewed in theaters...

[darth_mcbain]

That's a really interesting point, LB. Since it did so well in the theaters and DVD sales, that may have detracted from its TV run...

[Jedi Master Carr]

Its no big deal I just wanted to point out that this same discussion is been going on in a thread in Films. Just want to give you a heads up Darth23. So I will move it shortly and merge it with the other thread.

[Jedieb]

We've been talking about TPM's ratings in the Films forum. Some mods have been thinking about merging this thread with that one because we're covering some of the same ground. Anyway, here we go...

Describing the ratings as "solid if not spectacular" is fairly accurate. They were very good for a Sunday movie. TPM not only won the night, but it scored the highest Sunday movie ratings since MIB did a couple of years ago. But it wasn't all that spectacular. 60 minutes beat out TPM's first hour and CBS did still manage to win the night. TPM was still several points behind top 5 shows like ER and Friends. A "spectacular" showing would have been a #1 rating or Superbowl type numbers. But movies really don't do that well on broadcast TV anymore.

Star Wars movies have never done that well on broadcast TV. In fact, ANH came in second to the Phoebe Cates miniseries Lace when it premiered on CBS years ago. They're just too overexposed by the time they get there. Even though TPM had the benefit of not having been shown on satellite or cable, it still had the video and recent DVD release working against it. So managing to win the night overall is a good solid accomplishment. It's nothing earth shattering, but it's pretty good for a movie that's been out this long and has just been released.

This is one of those "certain point of view" things. You could easily look at it from a lot of different angles. I posted a break down of how the ratings came in Sunday night in the other thread so you can get an idea of how things went down hour by hour and network by network. Yet another compelling reason to merge the threads...

[BUFFJEDI]

Well the ratings are based on Nielson(or whatever)households right? well kind of what JON said . TPM made 431 mil at the theaters. Sold Millions of VHS,and I know it sold over 20 mill DVD's.So what are the odds that out of like lets say 10 million nielson households ,what are the odds that atleast 5 million of them have TPM in some form and Just didn't tune in to see it with commercials?? very good I'm sure.


GET what I'm saying :D

[Darth23]

I can't believe my thread got merged. I posted it in the BOx Office forume because the regulars there would more likely understand the whole ratings/busines press attitude towards TPM.

I guess that will teach me.

I'm out of here.

[JonathanLB]

Yeah, no offense but this forum is suffering from gross overmoderation. Let people post what they want where all of the regulars hang out. Does it matter MORE what the NAME of the forum is (box office), or more that we all visit that particular forum to talk? I say we should not all have to change, the name is just a very poor reflection of what is discussed in that forum.

I don't think threads posted in the box office forum should have to do with box office. For a long while, years, we have used that forum for anything and everything and why not? It's where we all visit, which is what is most important, not being "orderly" about it all, hehe. Do as you please, of course, just a suggestion...

Anyway, back to the topic at hand. I don't think it's fair to say TPM did "pretty well." I think it did excellent. It was the highest rated movie broadcast on TV in 18 months, isn't that more than pretty good? I take pretty good to mean something that happens fairly often, like I see lots of pretty good movies, but only once every 18 months or so do I see a truly awesome film, haha, ok about ten times per year actually :)

Still, the point stands, TPM did very well. Did it become the best TV broadcast in world history? No, haha, but I think that would be a bit much to expect.

Here is why I am happy:

1) It won the night.
2) -=IT BEAT TITANIC=-

Isn't #2 enough?! ;)

[Jedi Master Carr]

I merged the threads because basically the same thing was being discussed here, to me its silly having two threads dealing with the same issue. If I let one go then when I do put my foot down somebody will say well you let that thread go so I have to be indifferent and fair. I didn't mean any harm Darth or anything I just wanted to keep the conversation focused and in one area thats all. I did keep your topic Darth as a comprimise, so I hope there is no hard feelings. :)

[ReturnOfTheCB]

Jon, I don't think there's ever going to be "enough" to satisfy the media...the good majority of the media will probably never accept Star Wars for the greatness it deserves...I think a lot of it has to do with the fact that Star Wars isn't "Hollywood"...GL works on his own, independent of Hollywood, and plus, Star Wars has always in many respects been unlike what the drivel that often comes out of Hollywood...I mean, look at the differences between Titanic and Star Wars (I'm sure you could write a paper on it, I know I could, and I've ranted many a time about it)...Titanic is the kind of film the media likes, because it embraces and promotes the current trends of society, while Star Wars takes a different aspect and shows ideals that may be lacking in society...I also think a lot of those same reasons are why LOTR hasn't always been welcomed as "literature" of the 20th century, because it doesn't promote all of the **** found in some other "modern authors'" writings...but that's just my theory :D

(not to make this a LOTR thread, I just used that as an example because it's what else came to mind)

[Jedieb]

I really don't think there's any media bashing here. The ratings were simply good but not great. If there was one media article that was a little biased it was the cheesy Hollywood Reporter article. It went out of it way to include SW terms in the article instead of just reporting the ratings. Why don't we complain when the media slants in our favor? Saying "solid if not spectacular" isn't bashing, it's a pretty fair assessment of how the ratings came in. Now if they started calling a top 15 ranking for a Sunday night movie a failure then I'd say there was some unfair bashing going on. But I just don't see the Showbiz article doing that. The Showbiz article is simply comparing TPM's ratings to other shows. There were segments of TPM's broadcast that came in second to what CBS had on(60 Minutes). And there were segments of the broadcast that were 7-8 full points behind #1 shows like ER.

The title of the article certainly wasn't positive, but the actual article itself was pretty dead on. It gave TPM credit for helping FOX in key demographics. But it accurately stated that CBS still won the night. For a one paragraph summary of Sunday night ratings it was not a SW hatchet job.

[Jedieb]

Now that I think about it, the article was fair, but that title was pretty craptacular. Showbiz could have done better:

Fair Title
Phantom Menace Leads FOX to Sweeps Win
Phantom Menace Draws Big Sunday Numbers

Unfair
Phantom Menace Fails
CBS Defeats the Force!
Jar Jar Sucks

Cheesy
Phantom Menace Goes Hyperspace!
Fox's 'Phantom' menaces film-heavy Sunday
Star Wars "Darth Mauls" You've Got Mail
FOX Uses The Force!

Ratings Perspective
Just to put these numbers into perspective. Look at this ratings shocker:

Carol Burnett made a triumphant return to CBS Monday night, drawing a sensational 18.8 rating and a 30 share in the 10:00 p.m. hour. Moreover, she did it opposite ABC's usually potent Monday Night Football, which managed to produce only an 11.3/18 for the hour. The Burnett variety special helped CBS win the night with an average 14.3/21, well above ABC, the usual Monday-night winner, which drew a 10.8/16. Fox was third with a 7.5/11, followed by NBC with a 7.3/11.

Sensational is an appropriate adjective to describe Burnett's performance. Especially when you consider she did that against MNF. That 18.8 will probably result in a #1 or top 3 ranking. That's almost TWICE what TPM scored at times. Again, SW is great, but it's never been as impressive on the small tube as it has at the B.O.. And it shouldn't be expected to do as well anyway.

[Jedieb]

I came across some rathings of a recent Sunday movie today and I thought it would help put TPM's network premiere into perspective.

Rank Ratings/Share
7 11.8/19 CBS Sunday Movie: A Town without Christmas
17 9.8/15 The Phantom Menace

Just to summarize, TPM had a solid performance for the premiere of a 2 year old theaterical release. But it wasn't anything earth shattering. A first run cheesy network movie can outdo it easily. SW just doesn't have the same impact on network TV that it does on the big screen for a plethora of reasons, many of which we've already discussed.

[Darth23]

Last weeks ratings had Fox averaging a 4.8 - so that would be almost double their normal numbers. the other networks were averaging around a 10.

Do you have any numbers for movies on Fox?

[Jedieb]

You could go to some of the links in this thread and with a bit of searching find some TV ratings. We're those numbers for Fox a weekly average or a specific day of the week? Then you've got to throw in that Fox is always behind the big 3 anyway, plus I don't think last week was a sweeps week so I don't think the networks had anything big on the weekends. The biggest events of the week were the Survivor finale and first run episodes of ER, CSI, & Friends. All of which would have had much higher ratings than a Sunday broadcast movie like TPM. If TPM had premiered on CBS or NBC it would have had stronger ratings than it did on FOX, but not that much more.