Dark Empire

[Seth Darkserpent]

I just read Dark Empire, the graphic novel. It was fantabulous, but not perfect. Then again, what is perfect? I'd give it an 8 out of 10.

**Warning Spoilers**

Pros

Palpatine's back, yay!

It fits in nicely with the Thrawn trilogy.

The art was really nice, it set the dark mood for the graphic novel.

Jedi Holocron!

Threepio's written pretty nicely, he gives that feel of the threepio in the Original trilogy.

Salla Zend and Shug Ninx from the Han Solo Trilogy return.

Boba Fett's back, "The Sarlacc found me somewhat indigestible, Solo!"

Young Palpatine, fighting Luke with a Lightsaber!

Han is really well written in this graphic novel.

It's nice to see a TON of Star Destroyers hanging in orbit over Byss :)

Vima-Da Boda returns!

Palpatine satisfied that Leia tried to hurt him in anger. Then he realizes she stole his Holocron :)

Cons

Luke seemed to be converted to the Dark Side so easily. Then he was easily brought back to the Light Side.

The Alliance seemed rather calm of Mon Calamari being ravaged by the World Devastators when they were planning a counterstrike.

Lando and Wedge had small roles in this story :(

Palpatine knew Luke was trying to betray him, why keep him around?

In the beginning, Coruscant has already been seized by Imperial Warlords. I'd rather they actually put that as a prequel story to Dark Empire.

The Stormtroopers still have that bad aim :)

Luke, Leia and Anakin in her womb defeated Palpatine's dark might? I find that a bit hard to believe.

Slave II? Ewwwwwwww! Ugly ship!

Boba and Denger teaming up? Boba is a solo Hunter!


Other then those few gripes, the graphic novel was great. I recommend it for others.

[ReaperFett]

Fits in with Zahns story. Good job the creator went back to change it really. This was made before Zahn's work, and basically ignored it all, despite the DE maker wanting to be able to link them

[Doc Milo]

I hated Dark Empire. It was unoriginal. The whole "Clone Emperor" thing was really stupid. And now, with the advent of the prequels, and the introduction of the Balance of the Force theme, I believe Dark Empire has been contradicted already (and may be moreso in the future, as eps2 and 3 come out.)

Let me explain: With what Lucas said Balance of the Force means, and what restoring balance means: That the line between good and evil was blurred, corrupted, by the Sith. (Which means that the Jedi were somehow corrupted -- maybe they start to believe they can use the dark side for good purposes, for example.) Anyway: Anakin restores balance by destroying the Sith. Luke is metaphorically a representation of that balance. In Dark Empire, Luke turns to the dark side in order to try to defeat the Clone Emperor -- attempting to use the dark side for a good purpose: the definition of imbalance. So, what Dark Empire has done is negate Anakin's sacrifice, negate his redemption, negate the entire ending to the OT!

[Seth Darkserpent]

Which means that the Jedi were somehow corrupted -- maybe they start to believe they can use the dark side for good purposes, for example.

Never read anything to suggest that :) Unless you can show me that the Jedi were somehow corrupted, your point isn't valid. It was the Republic who was corrupted. The corrupted Jedi were banished from the Order, or in some cases, killed.


Anakin restores balance by destroying the Sith.

Anakin's prophecy wasn't to restore balance, it was to BRING balance.


Luke is metaphorically a representation of that balance.

Oh really? Never heard this before.


In Dark Empire, Luke turns to the dark side in order to try to defeat the Clone Emperor -- attempting to use the dark side for a good purpose: the definition of imbalance.

Even if what you're saying made any sense, wouldn't Luke having experienced both Light and Dark bring Balance? Think of the Yin Yang. One white side, one dark side. Now that Luke's treaded down the Dark path, the Dark Side has become somewhat a part of him. This would bring more balance to the Force, IMO.


So, what Dark Empire has done is negate Anakin's sacrifice, negate his redemption, negate the entire ending to the OT!

The Dark Empire series was approved by Lucas, and the authors/artists went through every process to avoid contradiction. It negates nothing, and Lucas said himself that if he ever made a sequel trilogy, Dark Empire I, II and Empire's End would be the closest thing to it.


Vader did bring balance to the Force in his lifetime. First he killed the Jedi, and then he killed Palpatine. The Force neither favoured Light or Dark at this time.

[Jedieb]

When Dark Empire came out it was a big hit because people were starved for SW comics. I remember picking up the issues as they came out simply because I was thrilled just to be reading SW comics with the original characters. But I have to say that the story wasn't that great. I share many of Doc's sentiments. Like Seth, I loved the artwork, but the story was rather weak and unoriginal. And Dark Empire 2 was left virtually unfiinished. They had to tie everything up with the Empire's End 2 issue set and it seemed rushed and out of place.


Originally posted by Seth Darkserpent

The Dark Empire series was approved by Lucas, and the authors/artists went through every process to avoid contradiction. It negates nothing, and Lucas said himself that if he ever made a sequel trilogy, Dark Empire I, II and Empire's End would be the closest thing to it.



Exactly when and where did GL say this? There's a quote I've never seen. The post SW plans GL had were scraped when he decided to have the Emperor killed off at the end of ROTJ. The last trilogy was suppose to be about Luke rebuilding the Jedi and finally taking on Palpatine at the end. Having Luke battle Palpatine was Lucas's original idea for the ending of SW, but it certainly wasn't a battle between Luke and Palpy's clone. But Lucas simply gave up on making the nine episodes so we'll never know exactly what they would have looked like. I agree with Doc, the clone Emperor negates the sacrifice made by Vader at the end of ROTJ. And there are panels in which Palpatine is screaming like a maniac and practically ranting and raving. This is totally out of character. We never see a trace of that in ROTJ or Empire and I don't see it happening in any of the prequels.

GL approved the story line, but he has virtually NO active role in the comics or the novels. In fact, he's admitted in more than one interview that he doesn't even read the novels. He's read some of the comics because it's all he has time for. Dark Empire is what someone else would do with SW, it's not what GL would create if left up to his own devices.

Dark Empire can easily be contradicted at any time for a single reason. When those comics were written Lucas hadn't even begun writing the script to Episode I. Qui-Gon, midi-chlorians, "Balance to the Force", weren't even part of the SW universe. Lucas may have had a rough outline, but most of the specifics hadn't been flushed out. And I can guarantee you one thing. Lucas isn't checking with page 13 of issue#2 of Dark Empire 2 just to make sure he doesn't contradict the work of Veitch and Kennedy. If Lucas comes up with an idea that will throw an EU character or event into doubt he'll still go with it. He's not going throw away an idea he likes because a writer at Dark Horse wrote something almost a decade ago.

I love the EU, but it's a separate reality from the films that Lucas can ignore whenever he wants. And the creators of the EU have always been at a MAJOR disadvantage. They write and draw their stories without knowing what the complete SW universe has to offer. Without knowing what takes place in EP2 and EP3 they may have characters acting completely out of character and not even know it. There's nothing they can do about it really.

[Seth Darkserpent]

The last trilogy was suppose to be about Luke rebuilding the Jedi and finally taking on Palpatine at the end. Having Luke battle Palpatine was Lucas's original idea for the ending of SW, but it certainly wasn't a battle between Luke and Palpy's clone.

From what you've said, my statement sounds valid. I do not know exactly where Lucas said that about Dark Empire (I heard it over at the TF.N forums). He said it would be the closest thing to the next trilogy, not the actual trilogy. Don't think something as small as Empire's End could be made into a movie anyway :)


GL approved the story line, but he has virtually NO active role in the comics or the novels. In fact, he's admitted in more than one interview that he doesn't even read the novels. He's read some of the comics because it's all he has time for. Dark Empire is what someone else would do with SW, it's not what GL would create if left up to his own devices.

Sadly, tis true :( I don't let it get me down though. Everything can be explained if you sit down and think. All contradicting EU can be accounted for if you've read everything and know everything. I have yet to see a contradicting error in any SWs stories that cannot be explained somehow.


. Qui-Gon, midi-chlorians, "Balance to the Force", weren't even part of the SW universe.

Midi-chlorians weren't even mentioned that much in Episode I. And I'd say Obi Wan didn't mention Qui Gon because of the bad memories he would recall. If he told Luke about Qui-Gon, then how he was killed by a Sith, it might influence Luke in thinking the Sith are stronger. And when Obi said, "He was the Jedi Master that trained me" in Ep 5 about Yoda, he was right. Qui Gon was his initial master, but in the beginning of Ep I Obi says, "But Master Yoda says I should be mindful of the future." I'm led to believe although he was not Obi's master, he helped train him at intervals. Perhaps he lectured a few of the students or something like that.


Lucas isn't checking with page 13 of issue#2 of Dark Empire 2 just to make sure he doesn't contradict the work of Veitch and Kennedy.

Grr, that son of a Bith >D :p


. I agree with Doc, the clone Emperor negates the sacrifice made by Vader at the end of ROTJ.

The Emperor being put out of comission at Endor allowed the Alliance fleet to win the battle and destroy the Second Death Star. Palpatine had a grip over his entire fleet and was using the Dark Side to influence his officers with confidence. Once he was killed (temporarily) the fleet became somewhat unorganized. Sort of like when a Yammosk is destroyed. We see C'Baoth use this technique in the Thrawn trilogy.


. And there are panels in which Palpatine is screaming like a maniac and practically ranting and raving.

You'd be a maniac too if you had no more clone bodies which to place your life essence in. It even said in Dark Empire, Palpatine experienced fear at times. He was so afraid of finally dying, he was driven into rage. He is a Dark Sider after all. Besides, when Palpatine is thrown down the death star shaft, he screams :)


We never see a trace of that in ROTJ or Empire and I don't see it happening in any of the prequels.

Of course not. Palpatine has to pass himself off as a person who cares about the Republic. Were he to suddenly outburst like that, the Jedi would sense his rage and peg him as a Dark Sider. His plan for Galaxy domination was so well thought out, he had much assurance of his victory. The case is not so in the Dark Empire series.

[Jedieb]

I have yet to see a contradicting error in any SWs stories that cannot be explained somehow.

I've seen more than a few. Some of it is just silly stuff that you know GL would never do. Other stuff just doesn't feel right. The Yound Adult novels that include the childish Glove of Darth Vader come to mind. I think those have been dropped from the official time line but I'd have to check. The short story chronicling Fett's origin are now probably going to be contradicted outright by EP2 and EP3. And let's not forget the short stories in which the Sarlac Pit was described have now been rendered incorrect by the SE.



And I'd say Obi Wan didn't mention Qui Gon because of the bad memories he would recall.

I'd say he didn't mention Qui-Gon because back in the late 70's and early 80's the character of Qui-Gon didn't even exist! But you're right, just about every EU inconsistency can be explained away if you try hard enough. But the fact that it sometimes takes so much work kind of proves it's just not right.

Palpy's Characterization
I just don't think Kennedy and Veitch did him justice. I would have taken the character in another direction, so would you, and so would GL.

Look, I love the EU, I really do! I read all the novels, buy a lot of the comics. But to me it belongs in a nice but seperate place. I really don't see it as that much different than any Fan Fiction or gaming fiction that you might read. I like to keep the films in one place and everything else in another.

[Seth Darkserpent]

The short story chronicling Fett's origin are now probably going to be contradicted outright by EP2 and EP3

Yeah, heard. I was heartbroken, until ReaperFett said some wise words. I think the contradicting is for us to come up with our own explanations. If I think hard enough, I could probably find a reasonable explanation for this inconsistency. I'm sure one of the EU authors will tackle it.


I like to keep the films in one place and everything else in another.

If GL did make a sequel trilogy, people would be forced into doing this :). He would undoubtedly contradict every bit of EU out there, and create his own story. After all, Star Wars is his.

I just hope there won't be too many inconsistencies and contradictions in Ep II and III. I hope and I pray. :) I might be forced into thinking to hard to come up with reasonable explanations for each of them :p

[Jedieb]

Reconciling inconsistencies or accepting characters and storylines you don't like is one of the reasons I like Star Wars Tales and the new Infinities comics. They don't care about timelines and the authors are free to come up with any kind of story they want. Sometimes they're pretty off the wall, but I like reading about a droid that can use the Force. Doesn't everybody?

[Doc Milo]

Originally posted by Seth Darkserpent

Never read anything to suggest that :) Unless you can show me that the Jedi were somehow corrupted, your point isn't valid. It was the Republic who was corrupted. The corrupted Jedi were banished from the Order, or in some cases, killed.

Ask and ye shall recieve.

This is from an interview George Lucas gave to CUT magazine shortly after TPM came out. You can go to TheForce.net, click "Search TFN News" and do a search for "CUT Interview" under the "Episode 1" news criteria to find the link.

Here's a copy and paste of the interview's text (at least the questions concerning Balance to the Force.)



CUT: In Episode 1 Qui-Gon Jinn said Anakin would bring balance to The Force. What does that mean?

GL: Let me explain briefly. If good and evil are mixed things become blurred - there is nothing between good and evil, everything is grey. In each of us we have to balance these emotions, and in the Star Wars saga the most important point is balance, balance between everything. It is dangerous to lose this.

CUT: I see....

GL: In The Phantom Menace one of the Jedi Council already knows the balance of The Force is starting to slip, and will slip further. It is obvious to this person that The Sith are going to destroy this balance. On the other hand a prediction which is referred to states someone will replace the balance in the future. At the right time a balance may again be created, but presently it is being eroded by dark forces. All of this shall be explained in Episode 2, so I can't say any more!

CUT: When I think that Anakin will become Darth Vader, I feel it is better he not be trained as a Jedi - has Qui-Gon Jinn made a mistake?

GL: I think it is obvious that he was wrong in Episode 1 and made a dangerous decision, but ultimately this decision may be correct. The Phantom Menace refers to the force of the dark side of the Universe. Anakin will be taken over by dark forces which in turn destroy the balance of the Galaxy, but the individual who kills the Emperor is Darth Vader - also Anakin. The tale meanders and both the prediction, and Qui-Gonn are correct - Anakin is the chosen one, and he did bring peace at last with his own sacrfice. Luke couldn't kill the Emperor himself, but he could make Anakin reflect on his life and kill the Emperor.


So you see, what I was saying is true.


Anakin's prophecy wasn't to restore balance, it was to BRING balance.

Look at GL's answer above again. You'll see things like, a member of the Jedi council "already knows the balance of the force is starting to slip" and "the Sith are going to destroy this balance" and a prediction that will replace the balance in the future.

Seems to me there is no distinction between "restores" and "brings" in this context.



(on my assertion that Luke is a symbol of balance restored)

Oh really? Never heard this before.

It's called analysis of the metaphors used in the movies thus far. There are those of us who actually can come up with these analyses without having to be told them by others.


Even if what you're saying made any sense

It makes perfect sense.


wouldn't Luke having experienced both Light and Dark bring Balance? Think of the Yin Yang. One white side, one dark side. Now that Luke's treaded down the Dark path, the Dark Side has become somewhat a part of him. This would bring more balance to the Force, IMO.

Not when you factor in that, according to Lucas, as shown above, the Dark Side is the cause of imbalance. Not when you factor in that Lucas is telling a morality tale that deals with teaching people that good will always triumph over evil. Not when you factor in that the morality tale Lucas is telling makes no room for "The Ends Justifies The Means." Balance means finding a way for us (and the Jedi) to defeat our own darksides, not in finding a way to use both good and evil at the same time.


The Dark Empire series was approved by Lucas, and the authors/artists went through every process to avoid contradiction. It negates nothing, and Lucas said himself that if he ever made a sequel trilogy, Dark Empire I, II and Empire's End would be the closest thing to it.

I've given you the quote that backs up what I've been saying. You need to back this up with proof of your own. And "someone told me that he said this" is not proof.


Vader did bring balance to the Force in his lifetime. First he killed the Jedi, and then he killed Palpatine. The Force neither favoured Light or Dark at this time.

The Light Side = Balance
The Dark Side = Imbalance.

It's pretty much that simple.

According to Lucas. Just read his explanation of Balance above...

[Seth Darkserpent]

I think Anakin/Vader's sacrifice at the end of RotJ was more about his redemption and returning to the light side of the Force than it was about killing the Emperor. So in that case, it really doesn't matter that Palpatine returned in "Dark Empire". Besides, Lucas gave his blessing on the Dark Empire storyline. Or else, it would have never been published. Thus it is a part of the Star Wars Universe.

Like it or not.

[Jedieb]

Actually it' part of the Expanded Star Wars Universe, hence the name. ;)

Fans can look at it anyway they want to. Want to treak Kun like he's canon, good for you. Want to treat him like something GL could care less about and will never use in the films, then again, good for you.

Remember the Black Fleet Crisis and Luke's boring search for his mother? When EP3 blows all of that out of the water what will the EU do about that? Will they just cop out and say they were just lying to Luke? What were those Force chicks called anyway? Anasazi? I'm too tired to go downstairs and look it up. :zzz

[RHJediKnight]

Fallannassi, or something like that. I think.

And honestly, I kind of think that EU that takes place in the ancient SW past, such as the Tales of the Jedi comics, are part of the Star Wars universe. I mean, I doubt Lucas is going to do something in Episodes II or III that will contradict anything major that happened during that time period. So why can't that stuff be considered part of the universe? (Yeah yeah I know it's still officially EU, but hopefully you know what I mean).

I also think the ancient past is one of the more interesting periods in the Star Wars universe. I'd like to see some more exploration of it, and not just comics. Novels set in that time would be great, I think.

[Jedieb]

Falanasiwhatever! That's more like it. I still don't feel like digging out any of the Blackfleet books and looking it up, thanks RH.

I just like the idea that the EU is really sanctioned Fan Fiction. That being said, anything that I or any other fan working outside of LFL is just as valid as what Stackpole or Zahn writes. They just happen to get paid for what they dream up. Whatever I come up with is just mine, but none of our efforts are "canon." That realm belongs to the films and only the films.

[Seth Darkserpent]

Then why does Lucas take his precious time to approve of things and disapprove of things?! It all does not make sense! Grr :) If it weren't canon, then why would he disagree on some stuff? Like no bringing back Vader, or killing a major major character like Luke, Leia or Han?

About that Black Fleet Crisis, didn't Luke find out it was not his mother after all? I don't think that would be contradicting anything.

[Jedieb]

Lucas isn't taking significant amounts of time to approve or disapprove of plots or characters in the EU. He doesn't even READ the EU. He set out some general guidelines and someone at LFL does the approving and work for him. This has been addressed at the official site on more than one occasion. There's canon, and then there's the EU. They're not the same. Here's the much quoted explanation from Sansweet:


When it comes to absolute canon, the real story of Star Wars, you must turn to the films themselves - and only the films. Even novelizations are interpretations of the film, and while they are largely true to George Lucas' vision (he works quite closely with the novel authors), the method in which they are written does allow for some minor differences.

Even parts of the novelizations can be disregarded! ROTJ is a perfect example of this.


"We fought...your father fell into a molten pit. When your father crawled his way out of that fiery pool , the cange had been burned into him forever---he was Darth Vader, without a trace of Anakin Skywalker."
Do you think Lucas is tied into a molten pit duel because of this? He'll use it if he feels like, or he'll come up with something completely different. He's not going to hold himself to something James Kahn wrote. Even the TPM novelization has character descriptions that don't jibe with the film. If the films can contradict their own novelizations then they can EASILY contradict anything the EU has to offer.



The further one branches away from the movies, the more interpretation and speculation come into play.


The analogy is that every piece of published Star Wars fiction is a window into the 'real' Star Wars universe. Some windows are a bit foggier than others. Some are decidedly abstract. But each contains a nugget of truth to them. Like the great Jedi Knight Obi-Wan Kenobi said, 'many of the truths we cling to depend greatly on our point of view.'

I take these things from those statements. The EU is someone else's vision, not GL's. He's not writing them, drawing them, or storyboarding them. They're fan interpretations that just happen to have a LFL stamp on them. But they're not canon.

Why do they exist then? Two reasons, one being more obvious than the other. 1) To give fans a chance to experience more SW material. And the obvious one; 2) $$$$$$!


As for the Blackfleet, I remember the story being left at the point where they said that Luke's mother had been with them for some time, but they had no idea what became of her. This is pretty much going to get torn to threads by EP3. But then some EU writer will have to fix it by saying; "They lied because..." or the infamous EU contradiction bandaid 'From a certain point of view blah, blah, blah.." :)