Contraction

[Jedi Master Carr]

Baseball today voted Unanimously to get rid of two teams. No teams were named but the feeling is that it will be Montreal and Minnesota. I'm okay with the Expos, (I doubt their fans will miss them) but Minnesota :huh they have a good young team and probably could contend for a few more years. I would prefer the Devil Rays because they are just terrible. I guess we will have to stay tuned to see what happens.

[ReaperFett]

why would you want less teams?

[Jedi Master Carr]

Because some of them I guess are losing money and also they think it will drive up competition. It would because there would be less pitchers which would mean better pitching because it wouldn't be as deluded.

[ReaperFett]

sounds like some fans will be shafted though. They lose their team, after all

[Jedi Master Carr]

Most likely many Twins' fans will be upset I doubt there will be many Expos' fans crying since they barely get 5 thousand a game.

[ReaperFett]

5k go to a game, but theyd have more supporters

[Jedi Master Carr]

perhaps but it embarrassing when some minor league have better attendance than the Expos, plus I think there is no TV revenue for the team (I don't think they have a major TV station showing the games) that also hurts. Still I do feel sorry for the Twins fans, there are more of them and they do at least have a good team.

[ReaperFett]

I think this all comes down to money. No TV deal = less watching = less fans. TV exclusive contracts have killed whichever two teams go down. What crock

[Jedi Master Carr]

I have to agree there plus I think the league expanded too fast and are now paying for it with inferior pitching

[ReaperFett]

In remember in Football (Thats saw-ker to you :)) over here a few years back, a team called Brighton & Hove Albion(think it was them) was going bankrupt. Eventually, they had an idea. One hme game, they asked anyone who cared to show for the game. Doesnt matter who they supported, just show up to save a club. Packed stadium. Fans from many teams. Simply put, noone wants to see a team dissapear, no matter the size or your opinion on them.

BTW, when you say Baseball voted, who exactly do you mean? The Owners? Players?

[Jedi Master Carr]

The owners voted on it, it was a plan put foward by the commissioner who used to be an owner himself. The reason I brought up expansion is, if they haven't expanded last time they could have just moved the Expos to a city and maybe had threated the taxpayers in Minnesota with the threat to get a new stadium (that is the main issue there) but because they expanded there is really only one place a team can go Washington (Charlotte would work but they have barely been able to hold on to their two sports teams and may in fact lose one). Moving a team is to me better because at least the team stays in existence and many of the fans who supported them before can at least still support them but getting rid of them would be unprecident in MLB, the last time it happened was 1899 and there was only one league then.

[BUFFJEDI]

A few years ago They tried to bring the Twins (I think it was the twins) to Winston-Salem-Greensboro N.C
. I lived in W-s at the time and Knew Two of the major players (money players not ball) They tried to push the team coming to town would be great for the economy etc etc etc ... They were SOOOOOO ticked off when it got voted down. I spoke with one after the vote and he went on and on about HOW could the people not want a Baseball team in W-S ,blah ,blah blah. I kindly told him that the John Q public SHOULDN"T pay for the Rich Man to get richer,if you want a team in town PAY FOR IT YOURSELF not in Taxes.Of course I got IT WOULD BE GREAT for the economy.
I had to explain That it would be great for Business owners NOT regular Joe's working for a living.Let alone the Extra crime stadium areas ALWAYS bring .Let alone Having to PAy 10 bucks parking and 20 bucks a ticket.I guess I'm off subject here (sorry)

Anyhooo I thought they did the same at Charlotte a year or so later?

[Doc Milo]

The rumor I heard (and this was before the vote) was that contraction would include the Expos, and the Florida Marlins. The owner of the Marlins agreed to have his team fold, if he could buy the Angels (who are looking to sell.) But what he wanted to do was take his players from the Marlins and move them to Anaheim, and dissolve the Anaheim Angels... I didn't hear about Minnesota being involved. Admittedly, the rumor I heard was the last I heard of this news until I read your post, JM Carr...

[JMK]

I for one will miss the Expos dearly. Has anyone here but me ever been to the Olympic Stadium to see a game? If you have, then you'll know exactly why no one goes to the games. That, coupled with the fact that the Expos have had liars/backstabbers/snakes as owners for the past 10+ years is plenty reason for the fans around here to be jaded. The 2 current owners have made every mistake they could have made with the public, and now they can't figure out how to make it work here. Well, if they had shelled out the measly $1 million to hold the option on the land that would have been meant for a new stadium (which has the most PERFECT location, right across the street from the train station that brings in 1000's of commuters daily). The owners had a government grant of something like 140 million to help build the stadium, all they had to do was sign on the dotted line. Instead, they let someone else take up the ONLY land in an ideal location in montreal, and bingo, you have tens of thousands of jaded Expos fans that are just about ready to boycott the team. After that, the writing was on the wall. I mean, this occured at the beginning of this season, so why shell out money to see a team that is not going to survive without a new stadium? I'm sorry, but I doubt none of you really know how many real baseball fans there are here. Remember back to '94 right before the work stoppage, the Expos were playing .700 baseball at midseason, and drawing 40,000 a game. Its disgusting how the owners have treated the fans in this city. Firesale after firesale, empty promises, constant threat of relocation, any sport fan would be a little disenchanted and not likely to want to drive to the sh!ttiest part of town, drive forever because you can't park ANYWHERE because there is no parking, or opt to take the subway which doesn't work well at the stadium either. The baseball fans in this town are given an unfair rap, while all everyone sees elsewhere is highlights of an empty stadium. The obvious conclusion is that no one cares about baseball in montreal, and that is like saying Star Wars is not a solid box office draw. It's just pure nonsense.

Rant complete. :)

[darth_mcbain]

LOL JMK. I know exactly what you mean about Olympic Stadium. About 8 years ago, my Dad and I went on a stadium trip like in those MasterCard commercials. We didn't hit all of them, but a good number. So far I've been to about 22 I think, and Olympic was one of them. I'd have to say that that was the worst stadium I've been to (sorry if I'm offending any Montreal fans) It just did not have a good baseball feel to it, and if I remember correctly, most of the area behind the outfield wall was all concrete - ugh...

As for removing teams, I'd be for it. Personally, I am not a fan of expansion. I think that it all boils down to money and ratings. The extra teams means that they bring up players that don't really belong in the majors, and play suffers. I can remember when pitching was actually pretty good, and a guy was lucky if he hit close to 40 home runs. Now pitching sucks so royally that even some of the scrub players are whacking 40 homers. And as for the argument that some cities don't have major league teams - well, tough. We're in the 21st century now and you can watch pretty much all the games on TV - its not like you're disconnected from any of the action. I would much prefer fewer teams with better players.

As for who they would get rid of, I had heard the Devil Rays and the Expos. I wouldn't mind getting rid of the Devil Rays... As for the Expos, I agree that they are a good candidate for going away, but I feel bad because there are only 2 canadian teams, I'd hate to lose one of those - that would leave only the BlueJays, and also because my first major league game was the Mets against the Expos, and I guess I have a twinge of nostalgia for them...

[Jedi Master Carr]

Well I knew Olympic Stadium was bad, I had heard horror stories about it, but I just thought that there was enough interest in Quebec to build a new stadium. As far as people in Montreal not being baseball fans that is mostly from what I hear in the press and from other Baseball fans. I hear a lot of people say that French-Candians only like hockey and couldn't care less about Baseball. Plus I know that nobody has went to the games in years. Now maybe that is because of the ownership situation I don't know, I know they have been messed up since the strike. I think that is when the player exdous began. I know they had an all star team there with such great players as Larry Walker, Pedro Martinez, Moises Alou, John Wetteland, and Marquis Grissom. After they left along with their GM Dan Duquette (who will probably be soon leaving the Red Sox) things went to hell fast for them. Now they have one of the greatest players in the game in Guerror(sp) which every team would love to have but I guess people have spurned by the ownership and don't want to come back.

Now as far as the scenerios. Gammons reported today that Lurie the owner of Montreal would be given the Marlins, and Angelos would be given the Angels, (you got me how this would all work) and the Minnesota owner would just a payout. I read he has been pushing for this for a while now. This is all I know at the moment, of course this could all change once they settle on the teams.

[JMK]

Trust me boys, there are more than enough fans here in montreal to support a team, this crumbling stadium keeps fans away as well as the a-hole owners. There was a 9-ton piece of concrete that fell off the stadium a couple years ago. Thank God there wasn't anything going on then, or there would have been some flattened fans. The Olympic Stadium was not built for baseball, but for the '76 olympics. hence then name. Anyway, I'm sure my team is done, so I'll have to find a new team to root for...

[Jedi Master Carr]

You could always root for the Red Sox they aren't far away from Montreal and we could always use more fans:D

[Jedieb]

The Marlins and the Expos have something in common that may have put them both on the short list; their stadiums suck. I haven't been to a game at Montreal, but I have been to a game at Joe Robbie. It sucks! It's a damn football stadium (REAL FOOTBALL!), not a baseball stadium. You can literally see retired Floridians dropping in the aisles in the middle of July. This sucks, my father finally gets a Major League team and Blockbuster boy screws him and the rest of South Florida.

They should have dumped the Devil Rays. They've got no history (the Marlins do have a World Series title for god's sake!), and St. Pete has no one to blame but themselves for building that hideous dome. I went to college in Tampa and use drive by the Tropicana Dome (or whatever the hell they're calling it now). I remember when the St. Pete government built the damn thing despite being told my MLB that it didn't gaurantee them a team. When the Miami was given a team the people in Tampa/St.Pete went nuts. But when they finally do get a team they ignore it the way they did the Tampa Bay Bucs and Lightning (NHL). And yes, when the Bucs wore orange and lost 10 games year after year you couldn't give away tickets to Tampa Stadium.

It's just wrong to get rid of teams that have won a World Series. They should move them to D.C. and another viable city. Anybody want a big league team? Anybody have half a billion lying around?

[JonathanLB]

Good points being made, but nobody has yet mentioned that dropping the Twins is even more absurd given that the team is actually QUITE GOOD and in the last decade or so has seen impressive attendance numbers AND is even earning a modest profit!

If they try to fold the Twins, I assure you they will not succeed anytime soon. It is an anti-trust case. You cannot simply eliminate a competitor because you don't like it. That's not American business practice. Now, if you can so legally it is one thing, but this will test Federal Anti-trust laws because it is not the closure of an unprofitable team, it's actually the elimination of competition for no real reason except to make the other teams richer. Ha, I say good luck to that idea. I hope they're not considering the Twins, even though that is what everyone says, because if so they will run into some problems...

[darth_mcbain]

First off, I think contraction should happen for now, but once it does (and any subsequent realignments), I think that should be it. I was never for expansion in the first place, but what happens happens.

I'm just thinking from the fans point of view, you really come to identify with your team, as well as your league. With teams popping in and out of existence, and moving leagues (and cities), it is hard for fans to maintain their level of devotion to a given team. Ultimately, this can lead to a big sense of apathy from the fans and a sense of disenfranchisement in baseball. This can only lead to a lack of interest in the sport as a whole and it will all suffer.

As for the contraction, my order preference (based on the teams named) would be:

1. Devil Rays
2. Marlins
3. Expos
4. Twins
5. Athletics

I realize that my top two choices are both in Florida, but both are such new teams without much history too them. I'm kinda indifferent about the Expos. I would like to see the Twins and the Athletics stay around (although a case can be made for Oakland, as the bay area already has two teams)

[JMK]

Don't worry, even if the twins do fold, it will only be a matter of time before major league baseball gives minnesota another team. when the minnesota north stars folded, it only took about 6 years for the NHL to award the city with a new franchise.

[Jedi Master Carr]

The courts could be busy especially if the player association does come to terms with it. They can file motions in court to stop it and if that happens basball could be in trouble, 1994 anyone. I think the owners opened up a huge can of worms here. I think they would be better just to move the darn teams. I would have moved the expos to Charlotte, even if the city doesn't have a MLB stadium. I know they have AAA stadium, I'm sure that would probably have a larger attendance than what they are getting now. Then I would move the Marlins to Washington, where they could play in old RFK until a new stadium is built in N Virginia. The Twins just need a new stadium and I am sure that could be worked out. The Devil Rays, I have no clue what do with them, the same with the A's both teams are in difficult postions.

[Jedieb]

Donald Fehr is the DEVIL! The owners actually had the high ground the last time out but they caved. Player salaries are out of control and revenue sharing needs to be implemented. Those teams are in trouble because fans are tired of watching teams that they know will NEVER be able to compete. Look at the Twins. They made a decent run, but their fans knew it would only be a matter of time before the sky fell. If anything, they played above themselves and were lucky to ever be in first place. Look at poor Oakland. They couldn't keep Mac, and now they're going to lose Giambi in his prime. How can they possibly compete.

Another strike won't kill baseball. It'll just remind people that the economics of the sport are a joke and both sides will lose millions, probably billions, of dollars. Screw them, I'll go to a minor league game!

[JonathanLB]

I do think it's very useful that baseball has a minor league instead of like basketball where good players are sitting on the bench, never able to show their real skills.

There needs to be a minor league there too so that younger players can have a chance to play, prove their skills, improve, and then eventually go to the majors, the NBA. I think it would be a great idea.

[JMK]

"Those teams are in trouble because fans are tired of watching teams that they know will NEVER be able to compete. "

Bingo.

[ReaperFett]

Okay, so if only 4 or 5 teams could ever win, would all the other fans desert them? I doubt it. I presume American sports fans do have loyalties, yes?

[Doc Milo]

Jon, about the Anti-Trust issue -- I believe baseball enjoys an anti-trust exemption. Plus, it could be argued that while the Minnesota Twins are a competing team sports-wise, they are a part of one big business, Major League Baseball. Thus, it would be like a business franchise closing one of its branches.

I don't believe baseball will have any trouble on the anti-trust front no matter who they choose to contract out of the league -- they're not going to do it without making a deal with the team's owner, either promising a buy-out, promising him another team, or whatever other kind of deal will be cut with the owners of the teams contracted out.

They will run into trouble with the players' union, because the union is going to lose out on the representation of 50 jobs. But I don't know if they can stop contraction. Expansion and Contraction are not, I don't believe, a part of the collective bargaining agreement, as, say, a salary cap would be.

Since the union may not have a leg to stand on to try to stop contraction -- although they can delay it, of course, by tying it up in court -- the owners may have hit on something that they can use as a bargaining chip to get the union to accept a salary cap. If they don't want to do that, they could always "throw the union a bone" by offering to increase the roster by a player, from 25 to 26 -- that would save 28 jobs, even though they will end up being lower paying jobs than they orginally would be without contraction.

[Jedi Master Carr]

Doc, Peter Gammons said that they might go up to 27 to satisfy the union that would basically mean 56 jobs but that would mean there would be 6 extra spots accross the board. Back to Reaper's point there are some fans who remain loyal to their team regardless of how they do, the Red Sox and Cubs and possibly the Cardinals all come to mind, there are probably others but I just can't think of any off hand.

[Figrin D'an]

There is another interesting theory floating about, which is gaining credibility, that the contraction issue is part of a larger play for MLB ownership to gain greater leverage over the player's union. As was said, the owners have had 'the high ground' in the last several contract renegotiations with the player's union, but were essentially forced to cave to union (ie. Donald Fehr's) demands because the owners looked like 'the bad guys' for delays starting Spring Training and the 1994 shortened season/1995 replacement player mess. This time, however, the owners have already made concessions to add roster spots and have publicly stated that there will not be a lockout. They want to force the union to make the move that will decide the fate of the 2002 season.

Interestingly enough, the 2002 schedule that was submitted to the union yesterday was a full 30 team schedule, which would obviously become void if the contraction goes through.


I guess I tend to think that the contraction will happen (this has been a subject of post-season meeting for the past 10 years), but that as part of the contraction plan, the owners are attempting to put the pressure on the player's union to make the hard choices. If the union approves the plan, no problems. If the union doesn't approve the plan, they look bad because they'll be the ones potentially holding up the 2002 season. If that happens, the owners will have some pretty significant public relations leverage. They then have the ability to push more plans on the union, like a salary cap.

And yes, MLB has an anti-trust exemption, and is thus not subject to potential law suits based upon those laws.
In the case of the Twins, the owner and MLB would exercise a buy-out clause. The owner would be payed approximately $200 million (which is more than double the team's actual value). MLB could then eliminate the franchise.
The problem that enters the equation at this point (for both teams) is the farm system. The minor league teams are kind of left to fend for themselves... if they can't join the farm system of another team, they have to close down as well, which means another 300+ players or so out of work, plus front office and managerial staff, maintenance personel, team scouts... a lot of jobs could be gone, far beyond the reaches of just the major league level.

[Doc Milo]

Just a question on the farm teams: Wouldn't they have a chance to also join the independant leagues?

I'd tend to believe that the players on those farm teams -- at least the ones with any potential -- will land on other teams. I also believe that some of the Major League teams will take those farm teams into their fold. The Expos farm system, especially, has been cranking out good young talent for about a decade now. The Expos problem has been on the major league level, where they sell off that young talent as soon as they become eligible to make some money. Depending on the teams that go, I'd think the farm teams might be valuable commodities that will be incorporated into existing teams systems. At the very least, the players of those teams should probably be able to land with another team... (I wonder if those farm teams were forced to fold with the big club, if there would also be a minorleague draft, as well as a majorleague draft for the players who suddenly find themselves without a team.)

That is another question. Would the players be eligible for free agency (since the team is gone, then their contract would also be gone) or would there be a player draft. The Union would probably seek to make them all free agents -- but that would be a mistake on the Union's part -- they would flood the market with talent, and devalue the existing talent on the market...

[Jedieb]

It's not that American fans don't have any loyalty, it's that their loyalties are being abused and taken advantage of. Let's say you're a loyal Expos fan and you've got a great rookie first baseman. He wins Rookie of the Year and even leads the league in hitting. You'd think the fan would be excited wouldn't you? He's not because he knows he'll never see that player hit his prime in an Expos uniform. As soon as the player is eligible for free agency he'll leave for a team that can afford to pay him 10 times the salary the Expos do. The Expos fan knows this will happen because the league is littered with former Expos prospects that they couldn't afford to keep. Losing every year is one thing, but losing because you never had the chance to compete is another. The Cubs and Red Soxs have each gone several decades without a WS victory. But their fans are still loyal. Why? Because their failures can be attributed to bad luck, curses, and poor management. You could even argue that the Cubs have been HURT by the Wrigley faithful. They sell out every game even when they lose 100 so the owners have been known to play it cheap every once in awhile. It's one thing to lose because you're cheap or cursed, another because you never even had a chance to compete fairly and your stadium sucks. Why cheer any team under those circumstances?

As for the Anit-Trust exemption, I would think that the only entity that could effectively challenge that exemption would be a competing baseball league, not the players association. Baseball has to be a monopoly in order to establish a level playing field. You want to beat your opponent, not bankrupt him. If he goes out of business then you have no one to compete against!

I think expanding the rosters is a good compromise. But eventually baseball is going to have to renegotiate their collective bargaining agreement to somethign that resembles the NFL's. If they don't you'll see the same 6 teams competing year after year with the occasional small market club like the A's making a run. But their run will last until the bigger clubs pick off their stars one by one (Giambi anyone?).

There was a great artilcle about the benefits of contracting in the paper today. It was carried nationally out of Portland I believe. Did anyone else read it?

[Jedi Master Carr]

Well there is another interesting development in all of this a couple of congressmen, both democrats one is from Minnesota, is pushing for MLB to lose their anti-trust exemption. I have no clue if they could get the votes but if baseball lost it there would be no way they could remove teams, at least not in the US.

Back to teams losing, I have no clue why Cubs' fans keep going (even though they get the nickname the loveable losers) They have had some great players though and that could be part of the reason, from Ernie Banks, Billy Williams, Andre Dawson, Ryne Sandberg, Mark Grace, and now Sammy Sosa. They were all great players unforuntely except in a few occasions they generally stunk, I think they only contended in the last 40 years 4 times, 69 only to lose out to the incredible Mets, 84 their best chance at world series lost to a fluke San Diego Team, 89 got beat by the Giants this time, and then recently 99 when they won the wild card. Now right now they do have a good team and could still contend for a World Series if they get some players to surround Kerry Wood and Sammy Sosa. The Red Sox are a different story because they have mostly been a contender but always seem to lose. They have been 4 WS in the last 60 years all went 7 games but they lost all 4. Also in most of those years they finished in the top 3 and sometimes had the second best record in Baseball but they happend to be in the same division as the Yankees which hurt their chances during the 40's, 50's and early 60's. With the wild card though this has changed things for them becasue even if they finish second like in 99 they still make the post season so at least their fans at least have hope for them.

[Doc Milo]

I know why Cubs fans keep going, regardless of how good their team is. I can tell you in two words: Wrigley Field.

For the past few years, me, my brother-in-law, and friends have been going to a different town each year to watch the Mets play (Being the only Yankees fan in the group, I am constantly out-voted as to who we follow where -- once we get through the NL stadiums, however, then I think I have a chance!) Anyway -- Chicago's Wrigley Field is the only place so far that we loved so much we went back the next year. There is no better place in all of baseball (including Yankee Stadium) to watch a game. There is not a bad seat in the house . . . it is just a wonderful experience. If you're a baseball fan, I have to say that going to Wrigley Field is a must.

[darth_mcbain]

With ya 100% Doc - there's a reason they call it the Friendly Confines... I've been there twice myself and I would have to say that its my favorite ballpark that I've been too. The ivy - the fact that it is an older stadium with some history - the apartments in outfield where people watch the games, just a great place to catch a game...