Religious ties in SW

[darth_mcbain]

I was thinking about some religious overtones in Star Wars the other day. Mine are bent towards Catholic, but I'm sure that there are others in different religions. I'd be interested to hear any others that you've all picked up on...

I was thinking of when Luke tells Yoda that he can't lift the X-Wing out of the swamp and then Yoda does it. This, to me, seems very close to when Jesus appeared to the Apostles minus Thomas. Thomas doubted it, and then Jesus appeared and said "Blessed are those who have not seen, yet believed". Similar to how Luke says to Yoda "I don't believe it", and Yoda replies "That is why you failed".

This also is reminiscent of how Jesus said "If you have Faith the size of a mustard seed, if you command the mountains to move, they will do so" If Luke had truly believed, he would have moved the X-Wing, but he doubted and therefore couldn't do it.

Anyway, I was just mulling over that the other day and thought it might make for interesting conversation. As for the Biblical references, please don't slam me for not getting them exact, I'm paraphrasing the best I can remember from memory.

[Jedi Master Carr]

There is defintely some religious overtones in the movies the best example would be Buddist espcially with Yoda. Yoda's philosphy remind me of a Buddist teachings especially with his pacifist ways and do there is no try philosphy. Since I am not expert in Buddism I cannot point out specifics, the best place probably to look is in Joseph Campbell's the Power of Myth which deals with different myths and religions but it also deals a lot with Star Wars and how they relate to it. I am pretty sure you can pick it up at just about any library.

[Jedieb]

I can't wait until Doc gets to this thread. This is right up his alley.

I think you could probably make connections between just about any major religion and SW. I would think that many of Yoda's sayings have a Zen feeling to them. We've got immaculate conceptions to deal with as well, that a fairly obvious one. What I find interesting also is the lack of any organized religion in SW films. You could make some ties to the Jedi council and the Jedi themselves, but there's nothing that comes right out as a religion. Plus, the Jedi have the advantage of "proof" of their beliefs. It's hard not to have faith when your spiritual leader can levitate an X-Wing.

I just thought of something. False idols. 3-P0 plays the part in ROTJ. And with that my mind draws a blank.

[Jedi Master Carr]

I have never thought about that Jedieb that is interesting. I think in the EU there is some references to religions but beyond that I can't think of any.

[darth_mcbain]

Yeah that is pretty interesting... I think that this is one of the major strengths of Star Wars - that it doesn't specifically address one religion or philosophy, but it has a lot of undercurrents which mirror different religions and can therefore appeal to a wide variety of idealogies.

Another tie-in could be the notion of the soul, which Yoda talks about when he says "Luminous beings are we, not this crude matter" and also in how we see Ben, Yoda, and Anakin as spirits.

[Jedieb]

I believe Lucas PURPOSELY avoided creating an established religion in Star Wars. But at the same time, he wanted to incorporate spiritual and religious themes and messages. He just didn't want everything to fall under a Force Church which had all the answers. I think that's one of the reasons for SW's mass appeal. The films deliver spiritual messages, but they don't smack you in the face with them.

[Doc Milo]

Don't put too much pressure on me, Jedieb! :)

There is a minor correction I would like to make, Jedieb, and don't take it personally -- it's just that this has sort of grown into a pet peeve of mine, probably because this is such a common misunderstanding about the term "immaculate conception." Many people have been saying how they don't like it that Anakin is the product of an immaculate conception, etc... and I start to pull my hair out, simply because Anakin is not the product of an immaculate conception. Do I believe Anakin will end up having a father? No. I believe, as the prophecy states, he was concieved of the midi-chlorians. But you see, the immaculate conception has nothing at all to do with the Virgin Birth. Anakin's conception and birth is drawing a parallel to Christ's conception and birth. This is the Virgin Birth. The Immaculate Conception is totally different. The Immaculate Conception is a doctrine, established by the Catholic Church, that states that the Virgin Mary was concieved without stain of sin -- concieved pure, without original sin -- in preparation for her to become the mother of Christ.

Mary was born of two human parents, Joachim and Anne, but her soul was kept free of original sin (so the Catholic Church believes -- not all Christian faiths believe in the immaculate conception.) This is what the Immacuale Conception is.

If Anakin was an immacualte conception, it would mean that his fall to the dark side could never have taken place because he would have been born without stain, he would have been born without a dark side.

Sorry, but I always feel the need to clarify when someone misuses the term immaculate conception. I don't know why. It's just become a pet peeve of mine.

Now, I believe you are right when it comes to Lucas having purposefully used spirituality in Star Wars, but steered clear of any single religion, instead lining it with an undercurrent of most major religions. Star Wars, at its core, is, essentially, a morality tale. Even the issue of Balance of the Force, if we go by what Lucas has said in various interviews as to what it means (that there was a blurring of a line between good and evil by a corruptive force, the Sith, and that leads to imbalance. Restoring balance is the restoration of a clear line between good and evil. A restoration of moral absolutes and an elimination of moral relativism.) Religion is where most people garner their sense of morality -- so it makes sense to include religious undercurrents and symbols, and metaphors, etc... while telling such a morality tale.

What else is there? Could it be argued that Luke going out on his own to face Vader earlier than Yoda wanted him to can be a parallel to Christ spending 40 days in the desert and being tempted by the devil? Sure, Luke isn't tempted three times, but, out there on that ledge, when told that Vader is is father, and then his father trying to lure him to the dark side by tempting him with power... or is that a stretch?

[Jedieb]

Those were interesting points on the immaculate conception. While the births may look similiar, you've made solid points why they are still very different. But you can understand why many lamens, such as myself, can find a correlation between the two.

Temptation
I think the temptation of Luke is a valid comparison to Jesus's time in the desert. I would even stretch the comparison to Anakin as well. He will be tempted in EP2 and/or EP3. But unlike Luke, he will fall to the Dark Side. So you get to see what happens to those who resist temptation and those who give in to it.

Gotta go now, takin' the little one to see Monsters, Inc. Cuz' he's been asking me to all week. Yeah, that's the strory I'll give my wife. ;)

[Doc Milo]

Yes, non-Catholics oftentimes confuse what the immacualte conception is. They believe the term refers to Christ's conception (in Mary's womb) when in actuality it refers to Mary's conception (in Anne's womb.) For a valid comparison, we would have to know more about Shmi's conception -- was she concieved pure of a dark side? I don't think that comparison holds up, simply because the person she would have been "prepared" for was born with a dark side, and eventually succombs to it.

I got another thought on Luke's temptation and the temptation of Christ in the desert. Both were times of trial. Both succeed in overcoming the temptation (although, I don't believe the devil stood a chance against Christ :) )

[BUFFJEDI]

you got that right Doc!:)