Did Lucas slip up?

[darth_mcbain]

While I was watching the Ep. I DVD commentary, George Lucas was talking about seeing Darth Sidious as a hologram. While he is talking about that, he claims that:

This is the same as in Ep. V as he is introduced as a hologram. As we all know, in Ep. V, it is the Emperor that we see as the hologram. So, Lucas has basically just told us that Darth Sidious and the Emperor are one and the same.

Now I realize that this probably comes as no surprise to any of us here, but I always thought that it was supposed to be like you aren't supposed to know. They even left Darth Sidious' name off of the credits so that you didn't know that he was played by Ian McDairmid as that would have given it away.


So, do you think that Lucas screwed up and let on more than he should have? Or do you think that they figured people know this anyway - might as well let them know?

BTW - I put this in spoiler tags, even though I don't think it comes as any surprise to any of us, but better safe in case there are people who don't know and don't want to know...

[JMK]

Nice observation. I don't think I would have noticed that, because the knowledge that the is one and the same is so second nature to me that it would have been just a passing comment.

[Champion of the Force]

Maybe, maybe not. The documentary isn't part of the actual movie itself, so one could debate whether or not revealing info outside of the film is 'slipping up'.

[Doc Milo]

Figure I might have to put my reply in the spoiler tags...

I always thought Darth Sidious wasn't mentioned in the credits not because we're not supposed to know that Ian McDiarmid played him as well, but because you don't list the same character twice in the credits, and since he was already listed once under Palpatine...

Plus, Rick McCallum had already said that they were the same, and that Ian had played both roles.

[darth_mcbain]

Where did Rick McCallum say that? Just curious - because, as I said before, I always thought that while we pretty much knew anyway, they weren't going to come out and say so officially.

[Jedi Master Carr]

First I think almost all the diehards know that Palpatine and the Emperor are one in the same and how that connects
that Darth Sidious resembels the Emperor so we all assume he is. I even had a few of my friends who are nonSW fans say that they knew that they were one in the same
Second most non SW fans probably won't view the commentary so they will never here Lucas's statment and Lucas probably figured this or doesn't consider it a spoiler.

[Doc Milo]

There was a quote from Rick McCallum on TFN, at the Check premiere, I beleive where he said -- paraphrasing from memory:

Sidious is Palpatine. That's Ian under those robes. No twins, no clones. Nothing like that.

I'd have to do a search of TFN's archives to find the complete quote.

[darth_mcbain]

Cool - thx Doc... By the way, I see by your location you're in Huntington, NY. I grew up in Syosset, so I'm a fellow (ex) Islander... :)

[Doc Milo]

Cool, Darth McBain! I'm about 10 minutes by car from Syosset.

[darth_mcbain]

Yeah - Huntington's real close - we used to cruise by there in driver's ed all the time and check out Walt Whitman Mall (technically in Huntington Station, I think, but close enough...)

I went to Syosset High, unfortunately I graduated one year too early to have known one of its more famous graduates if you know what I mean...

DAMN!!!! :mad

[Doc Milo]

I know what you mean. And I am actually in Huntington Station. The Walt Whitman Mall is practically in my backyard!

About that more famous graduate. I heard that some people in her graduating class didn't get a chance to buy there own yearbooks because collectors had bought up a bunch of them. Now that, I think, is sad . . . and sick!

[darth_mcbain]

Wow - I hadn't heard that. That totally sucks, not being able to buy your senior yearbook!!! I remember when my parents sent me a Newsday article sometime around the release of Ep. 1 about her. It was funny, because they didn't think she was all that high profile when they sent the article and I'm like "She's starring in Ep. 1, the biggest movie of the year and the one we've been waiting YEARS for!!!" I think I still have that article floating around somewhere... I'll have to dig it up.

When she graduated, some guys in my office had found her picture online somewhere of her at the ceremony, which was pretty cool, but it was funny because I knew the principal at the school who was also in the picture. Weird when something like that is so close to home...

[llvllerlin]

Lucas has always been messing up. Its been too long for him to make a prequel of a movie and not research his previous writings. When he does make mistakes thought, he now just throws them to his hired "Jedi Council" to make up crap to get him out of a bind. I mean I would be really bad to have the maker of a movie (and religion :) ) throw continuity issues into a new movie. I don't blame him. He almost got away with it too. Took me about three minutes after the movie was over to say, "I thought Yoda trained Obi-wan!", and of course, during the movie, "I thought Jedi Masters disappeared!"

I know both of these were explained, but they shouldn't have been in the movie unexplained in the first place. They were obvious mistakes that George now has to find a way to cover.

[darth_mcbain]

I would disagree on those as being "mess-ups" As to Yoda training Obi-Wan, just because we haven't seen Yoda "training" Obi-Wan doesn't mean it didn't happen at some point. When Obi-Wan says "...but Master Yoda says I should be mindful of the future...", right there we see that Yoda has had some influence on Obi-Wan's training. Besides, there are still two movies yet to come.

As for Qui-Gon not disappearing, apparently we'll figure out why in the upcoming episodes. I wouldn't count it as an error, though. Considering the amount of time George Lucas takes in making these movies, and the talented crew he has, I think it highly unlikely that that was an oversight. Now if in the next 2 episodes we still don't find out some clue on this, then maybe I'll reconsider my position...

I personally like there to be some unexplained things in these movies. First off, it gives us all something to talk about and debate here. Second, it adds a touch of mysticism to the movies. Lastly, I like it because I like having to think about things in movies. I don't like it where every single thing is wrapped up in a neat little package with a red ribbon. To me it doesn't hurt the movie that there are some unexplained things.

[Doc Milo]

I don't think we can count anything as a continuity error until all the movies are finally made. Lucas is doing something completely different from the standard "trilogy." He is making a six-episode saga -- essentially one long movie in six parts.

If you read the last half of a book, then go back and read chapter one, and see something that doesn't mesh with the continuity at the end, do you say the author has made an error in chapter one, or do you assume that these two things will come together in later chapters?

I say we all hold off on the "continuity error" criticism until the entire saga is complete.

And for the record, even the OT never claims that Obi-Wan was "trained" by Yoda. Obi-Wan tells Luke that Yoda "instructed" him. Two different concepts there. Plus, you must take into account the situation Luke was in. Obi-Wan wants to put a thought into Luke's mind before he blacks out from the cold. Essentially, Obi-Wan wants Luke to go to Dagobah and seek out Yoda. He has to add a few details as to why, so Luke will do what he is told -- So, Obi-Wan has to communicate: Go to Dagobah -- Why? Because Yoda lives there. Who, and why do I want to see him? Because he is an important Jedi Master...

So, to communicate that, he says, "Luke, you will go to the Dagobah system. There you will learn from Yoda, the Jedi Master who instructed me." Now, it is all true. We see in TPM that Yoda did indeed instruct Obi-Wan ("But Master Yoda says I should be mindful of the future" -- does, indeed, show previous instruction by Yoda) and it is effective in the situation. Would you rather Obi-Wan had said: "Luke, you will go to the Dagobah system, there you will learn from Yoda, a member of the High Jedi Council while I was the padawan learner of Qui-Gon Jinn, but forget that name, because he's dead, and you need to see Yoda, a Master who instructed many Jedi and can do the same for you..." Luke would have passed out cold by then...

As for the Jedi disappearing -- it can't be considered a continuity error just yet, because it can still be explained. And who is to say that Jedi disappearing is the norm? Maybe Yoda and Obi-Wan disappearing was the exception rather than the rule...

[Jedieb]

I wouldn't call them mistakes either. I'd say it's a bit of revisionist history if anything. You know Lucas had no idea he'd be using a character named Qui-Gon when he had Obi-Wan tell Luke he was trained by Yoda. If he did he could have added just a couple of words and everything would fit nicely. Instead of "the" you use "one of the" and you've got an explanation as to why Qui-Gon trained Obi-Wan. But Lucas didn't have that exactly in mind back in 70's and 80's when he was writing and rewriting the OT. He's filling in a backstory that was only outlined back in the early days so there are bound to be a few instances in which things seem out of place. It's inevitable, but it certainly doesn't ruin everything, at least not for me.

[Doc Milo]

You're right, Jedieb.

So to just ignore the "explanation" as an attempt to cover a mistake is wrong, too. The explanation has to be there. And I don't think we can judge what is and what isn't a mistake until all the movies are made -- to give these seeming errors a chance to mesh with the series as a whole. There is a big hole in the story right now . . . and plenty of time to explain what doesn't seem to fit right at this instance.