The FLEET GUIDELINES DRAFT

[Force Master Hunter]

Constructive comments now called for. Rules have been seen by several roleplayers already and had met with approval.

Now against our better judgement..... there is the proposed rule list

:: Entire staff take off running, leaving FMH alone with a Flame suit and a frying pan::


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Swfans.net Fleet Rules and guidelines – 10-10-2001

All ships built up to today and proved are hereby acknowledged and fall outside of these guidelines. All further production must adhere to the guidelines.

Shipyards

All shipyards are structures that are 40km in length. Design and look may vary. A yard takes 40 days to become active. Yards may be moved, this takes them out of production for 20 days. All yards may not possess offensive weaponry, but may have defensive shields and defensive weaponry. Yards are also not allowed to manouver except as above.

Specific minimum / maximum run built times
Fighters = 5 days for 30
Up to 50 meters = 7 days for 20
Up to 100 meters = 10 days for 15
Up to 250 meters = 15 days for 6
Up to 500 meters = 15 days for 3
Up to 700 meters = 15 days for 2
Up to VSD (900 meters) size = 15 days for 1
Up to ISD (1.6K) size = 20 days for 1
Up to 2000 meters = 25 days for 1
Up to 2500 meters = 30 days for 1
Up to 3000 meters = 35 days for 1


Anything beyond 3000 meters must be built under the Special Fleet rule.

Shipyards can not be combined except for special projects.
Note: - Capital ships that can hangar fighters and other ships do not have those other craft built at the same time. They must all be built separately.

Number of yards per faction:

New Rep: 5
Greater Jedi Order: Conceded yard allowance, Customer yard only
NR Special Forces: Conceded yard allowance, Maintenance / R&D / Ground Force production facility only

Galactic Empire: 4
Imperial Intelligence Headquarters: 1 (By allowance)

The Sith Empire: 4
The Sith Order: 3
Other Groups: 2 -- Given at least 5 active members and possession of a valid planet
The Cizerack:1 5km yard (by allowance)


These shipyards are representative of a group's total shipbuilding capacity. Assets not transferrable nor usable by other groups except under merger, with case means shipyard loss back to legal limits. Merger may result in request to downsize merged fleet. Details like planet location and number of yards in orbit is just for story material and do not impact these OOC guidelines. In addition, every group is allowed one civilian-run 40km shipyard which they can use to sell star ships to potential customers. It is illegal to use these customer shipyards for the military gain of your group.

Special Projects / New Technology

No super laser-wielding ships allowed except by 90 day production rule. If you wish to have a star ship with an onboard super laser, you must RP it, and there will be a 90 day construction period that will take your total full all yard capacity for that time. World Devastators require an RP, and take 90 days for 3 units, which will take entire full yard capacity. No ships bigger than 3000 unless you RP it and wait 90 days – this takes one yard 90 days, a group may only build one at a time, maximum length is SSD. Death Stars take 180 days and you must RP it and take full all yard capacity. Star Crushers are explicitly banned.

All ships under 2000m that are comparable to those that already exist are legally allowed to be developed without having an RP thread. Simply announce the specs to SWFans for review and you should be okay. Just as the major projects listed above, any innovative or radical tech is subject to the scrutiny and approval or disapproval of your fellow fleet RPers, group leaders, and moderators. Radical technology that is approved must take 90 days to research.

Battle Rules

You must allow your enemy 36 hours to reply to your posts.

NPC ships can be destroyed by vastly overwhelming firepower (ie, SSD vs X-Wing). PC ships are disabled and characters given chance to respond. Otherwise, use common sense as to damage inflicted. It is encouraged combatants negotiate and discuss a fight. It is noted a large ship may miss smaller ones. Again, use fairplay as a guide
.

Other

You can never destroy a planet.

Use your own judgment when role playing. These rules are not set in stone nor are meant to stifle your creative freedom.

Have fun. Winning isn't everything
The guiding rules of all roleplay must be followed ie :-

No God Mode
No Killing
No Maiming
Appropriate use of Common Sense and Fair Play
A sense of openness and a willingness to discuss and negotiate.

The three strike rule
Outright cheating or excessive disobedience to guidelines will be punished, first time by warning, second by loss of a yard, third by outright loss of allowance to fleet roleplay.
Administrator ruling are final

Resources.

A group must possess a valid planet to be allowed shipyards. A planet may be taken over by acceptable means, in a role-play no shorter than 25 acceptable size posts. This is negotiable.
No group with less than 5 planets is allowed a special fleet project. Special technology is allowed from time of first planet acquisition and not before.
Fleet size will be subjective. If a group is a major government / faction, allowance for that fact will be given. A small group in size and influence will not be allowed an absurd amount of ships, maximum is 10 capital ships per planet. It is hoped that good play would lead to a reward of a larger fleet allowance. Allowances are at the discretion of the moderators, except the explicitly stated groups at present
The New Republic
The Galactic Empire
The Sith Empire
The Sith Order

These groups are simply requested to use their own judgement as to an appropriate fleet size and are allowed this because either they are a Galatic government, or a very long established role play group. The Greater Jedi Order and the New Republic Special Forces have conditionally given up their rights to yards. The Cizerack Pride has been allocated a fleet without build proof, as they have given up the right to expand their fleet or to conquest. Imperial Intelligence has been allowed a small fleet due to continuous good roleplay.
This is a critical point. Good roleplay will bring relaxations of guidelines, this is hoped to encourage fair play.

[Sumor Rayial]

I have no comment on these rules other than this.

Why do we need new rules AGAIN? The new ones are working fine. Yes some of this stuff is new, can't they simply be added to the current build rules?

[Force Master Hunter]

Why do we need new rules AGAIN? The new ones are working fine. Yes some of this stuff is new, can't they simply be added to the current build rules?

Becuase the old rules make no acknolwedgement of resources. These do.

If you notice, these rules are in the main a rewrite of the old ones, with several holes closed. They also put production caps in place and also make it more difficult to build anything beyond 3000 meters.

Plus, they deliberatly bring in the concept of good play - if you dont play fairly, you get restricted. If you play fairly, you get concessions. TSE start out with consessions to resources and such as they have been here a long time and deserve those consessions.

It also prevents several lunatic senarios -

a) A one planet group having 1000 ships
b) a small group building a monster ship, well beyond their means.
c) A fleet being solely ISD's and nothing else. The rules are skewed to favour smaller craft
d) Being abloe to produce an ISD a day, as you could now.

[Sumor Rayial]

You can't build an ISD in a day. Under the current rules it takes 6 days to build a 1.6 Km ISD.

Resources and a cap limit on size could easily be added to the other rules also, I don't see why we need to change the building structure of things.

[Force Master Hunter]

You have mutiple yards, 4 yes? NR have 5. Say the NR set to ISD's only. They have a total of 1.25 Km of production availible a day. In 6 days, 5 ISD. For you, 4 ISD in 6 days

Hence an ISD is capable to be built every 1.2 days on average. For you its 1.4 if you want to be precise.

Under this, it will take 35 days to produce the same 6 ISD's. Or oyu can have a few hundred fighters, or if your really on the ball, mix the production up to have a balanced fleet, which I believe the rules encourage.

I'll point out this stops the NR from dramitcally getting ahead of everyone in a month, like what is allowed now if the NR were seious. In three months, they would be 30 odd capital ships up on what you would be and as time went on, the skewing would get more and more explicit.

[Sanis Prent]

Cap limits on size would be bad because you'd end up having horribly imbalanced fleets, as everybody would want 1000 ISDs over 1000 well-balanced ships. Instead, this logically makes producing larger ships more difficult than producing smaller ones.

[Admiral Lebron]

Now, do I get a strike or do I have to start from scratch?

[Sanis Prent]

That is an issue that is being discussed elsewhere.

[Telan Desaria]

my question is this: How many meters does a yard produce a day under htese new rules? I was cofused by the wording of the very top. Was it one hundred? 150?

Admiral Telan Desaria
Thyferra Sector Fleet
Inspector General of the Destroyerate

[Pierce Tondry]

The rules are length-specific. There is no general set length per day, but there are ranges in which a certain length/day ratio is in effect. Allow me to demonstrate using a few of the stats.

Fighters = 5 days for 30

If you divide 30 fighters by five days, you get 6 fighters per day, right? Except that building six fighters in a day isn't really a good idea. Not only is the system open to manipulation a little bit, but it just assumes that everything that which goes into building a fighter, including gathering of resources, processing of raw materials, and so on, can be taken care of in twenty-four hours which is unlikely at best. Rather than let that stand, it was adjusted so that five days are necessary for thirty fighters to be produced, but conceptually everything from refinement to wax finishing can be done on the entire group of fighters all at one time.

Up to 50 meters = 7 days for 20

Again, these are relatively small ships, but rather than make it possible to produce a single ship in a day (an unlikely feat at best) the build time was stretched along with the ratio of ships constructed per day.

It is fair, it just requires a bit more patience on the part of someone building ships. The focus in these revisions was on the process of how insane amounts of ships are built, not the problem of people having them. (Hence the grandfather clausing of all currently built ships)

[Pierce Tondry]

Why do we need new rules AGAIN? The new ones are working fine. Yes some of this stuff is new, can't they simply be added to the current build rules?

Are people actually building and using ships under the current rules? It seems to me (though I may be wrong in saying this) that people have scrupulously avoided fleet engagements because of all the trouble they tend to cause.

Edit: I point to TSE's last major operation as the source of my question. When I requested information regarding how badly stomped Garqi was, I was treated with suspicion and hostility because some people were worried the thread might turn into a helter-skelter fleet engagement. Though those concerns did have some validity in light of the thread's events, they were not the thrust of my question.

[Lord Gue]

Sounds good to me, ya got my support FMH

[Sumor Rayial]

Are people actually building and using ships under the current rules? It seems to me (though I may be wrong in saying this) that people have scrupulously avoided fleet engagements because of all the trouble they tend to cause.

TSE has since they were basically forced down our throats last time.

I have not avoided fleet RP's. I just haven't found anybody around that is willing to participate in one. Well that is until recently.


Edit: I point to TSE's last major operation as the source of my question. When I requested information regarding how badly stomped Garqi was, I was treated with suspicion and hostility because some people were worried the thread might turn into a helter-skelter fleet engagement. Though those concerns did have some validity in light of the thread's events, they were not the thrust of my question.

You got no answer because there was no reason too. You asked what fleet resources were at Garqi. Fleet had nothing to do with Garqi other than launching personal ships or bringing in the defensive elements near the end.

You got attitude from me because of two reasons. One I was really in a bad mood that day and I apologized later I believe, if I didn't I do now. And two because of the actions that were taken in that thread previous.

[Pierce Tondry]

Sums: Hey, I never held anything against you or anyone because I understood what was going on, and I think you did apologize which I appreciated. I just thought I saw a trend towards de-fleetization in the nature of the RP and wondered if that was true, or if I was off my rocker.

[Jeseth Cloak]

Fighters = 5 days for 30I disagree with this, merely on the principle that in a day a construction facility can probably easily build over 100 fighters, and most large ships need to be loaded with over 1,000 to have a "full compliment" of fighters on board. 5 days for 300 would be more realistic and fair, especially since most fighters in SW are pretty expendable, and cheaply built.
New Rep: 5
Greater Jedi Order: Conceded yard allowance, Customer yard only
NR Special Forces: Conceded yard allowance, Maintenance / R&D / Ground Force production facility only

Galactic Empire: 4
Imperial Intelligence Headquarters: 1 (By allowance)

The Sith Empire: 4
The Sith Order: 3
Other Groups: 2 -- Given at least 5 active members and possession of a valid planet
The Cizerack:1 5km yard (by allowance)How copme the NR gets 5 yards? I'm just curious, since I don't think the NR has that many more planets (that they can claim through RPs) then a lot of these other groups listed here. Shouldn't there be a maximum limit of 4 shipyards per group, at the absolute most, to keep things on a fair playing field? If a group beleives that they should get more, then they should have to present a case to the staff here and explain their reasons. For example, anyone remember the Vong? They needed more yards than most because they built their ships differently, but in the long run they had the production capability of a group with only 2 or 3 yards.

Also, elaborate on customer yards. I've seen (too often) people unfairly using their customer yards to increase their military force. usually it's out of ignorance more than malice, but there should be a clear line drawn.

The three strike rule
Outright cheating or excessive disobedience to guidelines will be punished, first time by warning, second by loss of a yard, third by outright loss of allowance to fleet roleplay.
Administrator ruling are finalComplete loss of the right to roleplay with fleets seems excessive, as does the losing of a yard because frankly, someone's OOC actions have no IC impact on their capacity to build. Why not just suspended said person/group from fleet roleplaying the second time around, and the exponentially double their suspension time with each offense?

Other than those issues, the revision is well done. :)

[Pierce Tondry]

Jes: I have some replied about this typed up, but I want to confer with the other mods about them before I post them, because I want to make sure I'm handing out accurate information. When I hear back from the rest of the mods, someone will reply to this. Kay? :)

[imported_Firebird1]

Uh, like What I don't see is why this has to be done now?
The rules work fine as they are, and yes some bad apples who ruin it for everyone, but they can be delt with one way or another. But If we don't know the exact reasons for it then why change them?

[Sanis Prent]

Well...its essentially trying to stratify the fleets. I know some have worked to balance the fleets, but this system offers incentives to produce smaller sized ships. In the previous system, there really was no such incentive for this. Also...we're trying to gravitate more towards a "give and take" system of working with fleet roleplayers. Trying to play galactic policeman really isn't working, and we're trying to empower those RPers who can play the game by the rules, with a bit of fair play and common sense.

Essentially, the end result of this is that if a faction continues to roleplay in a rule-adherent manner, and is cooperative in such things...if they have a "special request" that isn't per-se defined in the rules...it could be reviewed in a case-by-case analysis. Its more of a "gamemaster" effect than a number-crunching endeavor.

With the creation of SWfans-based shipyard forums...its an ambitious effort to work with those who want to participate in fleet RP's.

[Jehova Eaven]

Grrr... ::brings in the flamehtrower from Return to Castle Wolfenstein and attempts to burn FMH:: Damn, Flame suit.....

[Jyener Celchu]

I think it's fine. You can't be perfect and get everyone to agree with everything. Just glad that those battle rules were taken out, they never made much sense.

[Varlon Konrad]

Even since I've became a major fleet planner within The Sith Empire, we've been moving towards smaller, more numerous ships over that of the larger ones, simply because everyone else ignores how lethal a dozen ships with twenty guns are compared to one with Sixty. I honestly don't see why an entirely new system is required when all it takes is common sense for one to wake up and go "Doh, I should build smaller, not larger".

The only part of the new rules I could see being, in any way required, is the cap off based upon number of planets. In all honesty, if someone can't wake up and realize that larger ships aren't meant to be massproduced in any real numbers, they shouldn't be playing with Fleets at all.

[Jyener Celchu]

That's the whole reason these new rules were made, because of people who can't use common sense. Once people learn how to use these, I'm guessing the Admins are planning to take away restrictions little by little.

[Sanis Prent]

Also...it offers real incentive to use said common sense. If you work within the bounds of these rules, and work amicably...then you develop a bit of "leeway" when it might be necessary. As I said...its a bit of a departure from the cut and dry meter-counting.

[Force Master Hunter]

That's the whole reason these new rules were made, because of people who can't use common sense. Once people learn how to use these, I'm guessing the Admins are planning to take away restrictions little by little


BINGO!

It's critical people understand this point. Freedoms from the rules have been already granted to long time groups and people whom have played well.

If you read the last parts carefullly, like really read them, notice the bits about freedoms will be given and relaxations granted for good playing.

The proposal has loopholes to be exploited if you want, but those loopholes are conditional on Common Sense and Fair play, openness and communication. It's not the build rates you should be concentrating on, but the fact if you work out the rules intention, there is exploitation to be had, but instead of the numeric powergrabbing we have now, its switched to be favourable to people who WANT to play well.

Want a big fleet? You earn it. Want more resources? You earn it.

I absolutly acknowledge that this takes aim at players who have rorted the rules and made fleeting the pariah it is. It's aimed at the players who have already shown that they are unwilling to play fair. They are here to give a booster to good players and to stop fleets being a power grab.

Read em, really read them and see what they really say.

/rant


Jes, just to answer the NR question. The reason the NR has more yards is that in effect it has three groups to build for. Both GJO and the NRSF are independant groups, who under the old rules are 100% allowed yards, the GJO allowed three in fact. GJO gave up it's rights for yards, which were conceded to the NR, (whom had 4 at the time), thence making hte NR responsible for the GJO, fleet wise. Thence 5 yards to cover two independant groups and was the case with the old rules.

Now, NRSF are a legal independant group and they too are allowed yards under the rules. HOWEVER, this can be seen as a cheap way of gaining more yards and despite being legal, is not really right, thence the right to yards is conceded and they too will use the NR for supply. Thence the NR is in fact now supporting three independant groups, of three different natures. The other fact is the NR, by it's own nature, is not about hostile takeover and is suppsed to be the Galatic governement. it is supposed to be defensive by nature.

The GJO require defensive platforms and alos some craft for what they do, while the NRSF have a completely different set of requirements and engagement rules.It's likely the NRSF will just about take up one yard with it's own requirements, the GJO one and the NR the other three.

[Jedah Lynch]

Much has been said already so let me get to my main beef if anything do have with all this.


Constructive comments now called for. Rules have been seen by several roleplayers already and had met with approval.


Yes but who were these people and what groups were they in? Sums did have a point, the last time the rules were made they were being shoved down the throats of those who did not make the rules themselves. And overall and I'll state this openly I highly questioned why some go about posting the rules or draft proposes to only some while not giving all the groups a fair chance to respond or have any say until drafts such as these are brought up out of the blue. Drafts are not much more then final rule and law half the time except for minor changes that are made.

If the rules or laws are decided on then the groups must be talked too and not at.

Remember, communication can and often will solve any problem and if all goes well take care of many things. But just bringing out a new set of rules like these no matter how good the intentions can be a pain. In other words work with the people and everything will go easier. Each group has a number of people who are good with fleets, its not hard to see who they are.

Discussions with those people should be consulted if new rules or laws are to be debated or issued instead of brought out of the blue. That can for some feel like they are indeed being jerked around.

Communication is the key.

[Sanis Prent]

Note the "DRAFT" in "THE FLEET GUIDELINES DRAFT" :) as well as the "Fleet Rules Revision" thread :)

The discussion with all pertinent parties is already in progress. So these people who claim misrepresentation (whoever you are :)) have nary a leg to stand on now. See, speak, act...so that when we get something to work with...you aren't high, dry, and complaining.

We're bringing all the camps here to talk about this. If nobody talks...then personal input doesn't reach the admins and mods putting this little plan together.

Sooo...there shall be no complaints of lack of advance notice.

Sanis has spoken...Ohmmmm....Ohmmm....:lol

[Telan Desaria]

Two things...

A: A question. Under these new rules, how long would it take to prdouce a Star Destroyer? Right now, at two hundred fifty meters a day, it takes one yard 6.4 days to complete one. How long if these are passed? I, as an Admiral and RPer, like the current rules. I am voicing my opinion that I like the two fifty a day rules...

Sorry...

Also, I joined RPing because I wanted to be an Imperial Admiral. That was my sole reason. I wanted to command vast amounts of the Imperial Navy against threats from abroad, smashing about the enemies of the Empire from the doorsteps of all that was pure. I wanted to stand upon the bridge of Super-class Star Destroyer and feel the pride of commanding a Fleet. Don't take that away from me by forcing me to take a year to replenish my battle losses.

Besides, if you look at the SW Guide to Vehicles and Vessels, you will see that the build time to Star Destrtoyers can be weeks if they are mass produced properly.

Admiral Telan Desaria
Supreme Commander, Thyferra Sector Fleet
Inspector General of the Destroyerate

[Sanis Prent]

Telan, conversely, how often do these cataclysmic battles take place? Almost never, actually. Instead, fleets normally sit idly by and their ranks swell, bloat, and soon you have fleets of 1000+ ships, which is really what we're trying to avoid.

Under the new rules, an ISD can be cranked out in 20 days by one shipyard. When you consider that a fleet only engages every 4 to 6 months...you're talking plenty of time to recover said losses. Also...this grounds a fleet faction in quite a bit of realism. Yes, ISDs and SSDs are awe-inspiring and impressive, but they alone do not make a fleet. To successfully control space, you need frigates, cruisers, gunships...the workhorses of the galaxy.

Rather than impling that it takes the same time to build 10 corellian corvettes as it does to build an ISD (which logically it wouldn't)...this system shows that you can produce smaller ships much more efficiently than you can larger ships. Of course, these larger ships are still impressive bulwarks of power, but wars will not be won on ISDs alone.

[Pierce Tondry]

Jes: As FMH has already dealt with your question about the NR, I will go on with the rest of your questions.


I disagree with this, merely on the principle that in a day a construction facility can probably easily build over 100 fighters, and most large ships need to be loaded with over 1,000 to have a "full compliment" of fighters on board. 5 days for 300 would be more realistic and fair, especially since most fighters in SW are pretty expendable, and cheaply built.

I disagree with that.

First off, think of what you're asking. Do you really want to be responsible for keeping track of how many tens of thousands of starfighters you have? Because you do need to keep track of them, if only to make sure you're not ignoring your own assets.

Second, most ships do not carry over a thousand fighters. An Executor-class Super Star Destroyer (one of the biggest ships around) carries 144 TIEs under standard conditions and I can't see people having too many of those. Which ships are these that you're interested in?

Third, are that many really necessary? I mean REALLY necessary, not just "I want them" necessary. The X-Wing novels showed us how a few squads worth of starfighters can put major hurts on whatever they want. You don't NEED to hurl bazillions of starfighters at a target. If you want to raze a planet, build a Star Destroyer. It will do the job more effectively than thousands of starfighters.

Fourth, a point Sanis brought up to me. The 30 fighters in 5 days rule is pretty consistent with the rest of the amended build times. Under these rules, you need 20 days or so to build an ISD, which further reduces any need for such a heavy fighter load.


Also, elaborate on customer yards. I've seen (too often) people unfairly using their customer yards to increase their military force. usually it's out of ignorance more than malice, but there should be a clear line drawn.

The concept is as follows. There exists, for every group, a yard where they can build small personal ships, vehicles, weapons, etc. for people who come asking for them and who are not part of the group. If I wanted some of the superior shielding technology of the Mon Calamari in my ship, for example, I might pay the NR a visit and request them to make me a ship with such upgrades. This allows Independant Role Players who are not directly associated with a group to still get things everyone else has.

The basic limits on this are as follows: no superior military-grade technology should end up in the hands of those buying ships, because if you were operating realistically you wouldn't sell your best weapons to a stranger. This solves two problems: the problem of whether or not one Independant person can have/own a capital ship like a Victory Star Destroyer or Lancer Frigate (answer: NO, because no one is stupid enough to hand over that much firepower to someone who might turn it against them) and what happens to the ship if that person later joins the group the ship was bought from (answer: they keep it, because there was no significance to the ship being in Independant hands in the first place).

Size, capabilities, and other details pertaining to customer yards do need to be defined, but seeing as how even we mods get lazy... well, we'll do it later. :)


Complete loss of the right to roleplay with fleets seems excessive, as does the losing of a yard because frankly, someone's OOC actions have no IC impact on their capacity to build. Why not just suspend said person/group from fleet roleplaying the second time around, and the exponentially double their suspension time with each offense?

Something strikes me as being bad about this idea, but I can't put my finger on it at the moment. I'll say something if I do, but there's no reason it can't be considered anyway.

[Pierce Tondry]

A: A question. Under these new rules, how long would it take to prdouce a Star Destroyer? Right now, at two hundred fifty meters a day, it takes one yard 6.4 days to complete one. How long if these are passed? I, as an Admiral and RPer, like the current rules. I am voicing my opinion that I like the two fifty a day rules...

As Sanis already said, it takes 20 days to produce one ISD. On the other hand, smaller ships take less time. You could always build, say, a Lancer Frigate or a Carrack Cruiser in less time. Anyone remember the 200 Dreadnaughts of the Katana Fleet?


Don't take that away from me by forcing me to take a year to replenish my battle losses.

Raising the "cost" of replenishing forces encourages people to be more careful with them. Would you perhaps flee a battle to save them if you realized you were losing too many men and ships?


Besides, if you look at the SW Guide to Vehicles and Vessels, you will see that the build time to Star Destrtoyers can be weeks if they are mass produced properly.

Does it say under what circumstances it could be done? I tend to believe that the Empire at the height of its' power might be able to do it, but after the Republic and Empire had drawn even, I think their resources would be more taxed.

Edit: I am done editing this post.

[Cirrsseeto Quez]

Besides, 20 days is just shy of 3 weeks...so it falls under the "weeks" category :p

[Jyanis Scorpion]

As he said, and that's actually pretty realistic.

Plus making the more lengthy ships take longer in comparison to an equal amount of smaller ships is realistic, since you have to account for the fact that most of the longer ships tend to have a good deal of width to them, adding to construction time.

[Jyener Celchu]

That's true too. 250 meters of a Lancer Frigate is a lot less to build than 250 meters of a Star Destroyer.

[imported_Firebird1]

But then the question becomes, what about current fleet sizes...

Will we need to downsize fleets again?

Also how do we know these rules will not be taken advantage of this time around?

[Guri]

No downsizing necessary...this simply affects new construction.

No rules can exist without some attempt to find a loophole or take advantage. Thats why we're trying to lean towards a more subjective form of governing fleets. With dedicated moderators to work with fleet roleplayers...we can work both with those who consistently RP in the bounds of fair play, and against those who seek to exploit percieved loopholes to their advantage.

[Darth Turbogeek]

a) No downsizing. Everything you have, as of right now, is acknowledged and you keep as is

b) That's up to the moderators. It should be a good deal harder to cheat, especially with the fleet forums here and quite visible. Thence, anyone could check up on any group. That should discourage cheating real fast, aas all your actions are in the open. Bit hard to cheat when your actions are in full view, true?

[Sean Piett]

I no like. Starfighters are crucial. What about TIE Devils? The whole concept for the Empire's fighter combat is based upon the small, speedy ships. Why not go from a five of those to five thirty-meter technology-laden super-fighter-mini-frigate? Who's to stop me? I, too, prefer the 250 meter a day policy. The Empire bases itself very much on frigates. And if it's your big thing, FMH, with NR, you must do it there. And TSO is in capable hands, and though I haven't checked over there, I'm sure they balance things out. So why pass a rule? 20 days is a long time, and people like to see the fruits of their labors.

Sure, 250 m of star destroyer will have more volume than a frigate. But a frigate needs high-tech, expensive, and large engines, hyperdrives, nav computers, and the works. In comparison, a Star Destroyer should be a bit more cost effective.

In reference to the earlier comment by Sanis, concerning the idea that 'Once we get used to these new rules, the admins will be more lenient,' well, we've had the other set of rules for quite a while, and the two proceeding sets for even longer, and never have I seen rules slacken, except for the battle rules that were taken out. And those shouldn't have gotten into the mix with the last set.


One last thing. I know I'm jumping around here. But really, let's think. I hear a lot of talk about us needing to be more like the movies. Well, go and knock yourself out watching every one, looking for a tenth as many frigates as Star Destroyers. Even during Ep. 1, big ships were in. Only at the end of ROTJ did anyone use frigates as we know them, so maybe our policy isn't so off.



Lord knows these rules will be passed. They always do, in spite of the opposition. Maybe someone'll wrestle some sort of upgrade out of the admins, but until building times go back to 250 meters a day, and no less, I will be one very unhappy camper.

[Sanis Prent]

It could be possible to include provisions for the small droid "fodderfighters" as they are called. I know this was done in the old rules, so we could perhaps say that any craft 5 meters or smaller can have 15 built in a day or something as such. Thats a relevant idea, and I think it can be implemented fairly easily.

The rest, however....no matter how you cut it, an ISD's length worth of frigates is more economical, easier to build, and more effective generally than an ISD. Yes, you look at all the systems incorporated in the 250 meters of a frigate vs random 250 meters of an ISD. ISD's don't have engines every 250 meters....or shield generators. They do, however, have vastly larger versions of these...so if that random 250 meters includes one of these uber-systems...it evens that argument out. You're still looking at less time and resources to build the frigates.

I know the wait times are longer...but couple this with the fact that you really don't DO anything with these ships on a regular basis. Real fleet engagements happen maybe every four months. You won't be lacking the ships to continue these...

As to the ep1 reference...point me to the massive ships that Naboo had.

Despite the naysayers...we really are trying to work with all involved parties here. Had we not, we would simply decree from above that these are the rules at SWfans. However, thats why this thread has "DRAFT" in big bold letters. We're taking suggestions and ideas. Now, if you're in a minority voice of opposition...can we completely bend to your wishes? No. Unfortunately there will be some who cannot be totally appeased. We're all different. However...this is a forward-thinking attempt to work with the fleet RPers here to continue to make fleets a fun thing here.

[Alpha]

Two things:

1) Are the plasma cannons I favor so much realilistic enough for the SW universe?

2) What about my small fleet I've been carrying around sinceI first got here. IT's real small too. Since I was forced to give my fleet to someone (I think Viscera I can't remember right now) I decided to make it more plausible.

Ship compliment:

3 Corellian Gunships (120 Metres)
4 Corellian Corvettes(150 Metres)
1 Hapan Nova Cruiser (It's the Tolaria, I need to give a whole new set of stats for it since it diverges so much from the original ones)(About 500 Metres)
1 Hapan Battle Dragon (500 Metres)
6 Escort Shuttles (32 Metres)
16 Miy'Til fighters
1 Corona Class Star Frigate (275 Metres)
5 Skipray Blastboats
1 Quasar Fire class cruiser modified for carrier duty (340 Metres)
5 B-Wings
5 E-Wings
3 K-Wings
2 HLAF-500
4 LAF-250

It's composed mostly of smaller vessels, so Is there a problem with me keeping my NPC fleet?

[Darth Turbogeek]

250 meters per day is absurd. It's just way too damn fast. You can construct a huge fleet in a rapid time and that is unfair.

Tell me, in the movies, did you ever sea fleet of 100+ ISD's? With 10 SSD? Well, we have that here.... it's called the New Republic. That's a complete farce. Right now, the NR with the NRSF has been in full production for soem time and the amount of ships is stupid. And we are allowed to do this. This is personal experience, using the rules to the fullest. 250 meters a day is just ridiculous.

Here is why

NRSF - Legal Star Wars group. Allowance of two yards, began production on the 25 August, 2001

Production to date

25 Correllian Gunships
4 Gamma Class ATR-6 Transports
1 Sentinaal Class Lander
12 Nebulon B Frigates
2 Interdictors
1 Kuat Drive Yardss Law Class Patrol Boat
10 Vibre Class Assualt Cruisers
9 CR90 Corvettes
4 Cygnus Shuttles
1 Lamba Class T4a Shuttle
3 Mon Cal 90 Cruisers
4 Strike II Cruisers
8 Gamma Class Assualt Shuttles
18 Gat-12 Blast Boats
8 Correllian Misslie Destroyers
6 Paladin Cruisers
3 Nebulon-G Frigates

A total of 24,500 meters of prodution in under 2 months. This is what prompted me to reall qurestion the logic or wisdom of the 250 meter rule. It is clear so far over the top. This is also the reason why NRSF is going to concede it's legal yards, because clearly it's absurd to be allowed to do this. Who knows what the NR has done in the same time.......

And I'm not the one actually doing the tallying. I'ts Yog, who plays fair and legal, no arguement. The rules are being used to the n'th degree and look what we got. Crazy

These rules seek to change this.

[Darth Turbogeek]

Bugger, should have been logged inas Tohmahawk... no matter.

Alpha :-

Are the plasma cannons I favor so much realilistic enough for the SW universe?

Yes, because that is the prinicple of the blaster and also turbolasers. The fire Plasma, created from gasses heated by a laser, then spat out by electomagenetics. (Not quite right, but thats the principle). So I dont see a probelm. As for the NPC fleet..... I dont know. Sanis?

[Admiral Lebron]

How much longer?!

[Sanis Prent]

I dunno about the NPC fleet Alpha...thats rather large. I think a good rule of thumb on NPC fleets is to keep the cumulative length to a certain number....say maybe 1.5 kilometers total. That way, you can have either a handful of corvettes, or maybe 1 or 2 larger ships.

[Admiral Lebron]

What about me?

[Sanis Prent]

Start a new thread and post your entire fleet roster in it, Lebron.

[Sean Piett]

Point me to the massive ships that Naboo had.

Point me to the economical frigates that Naboo had. They're not even a power. A royal transport, a personal guard, and a squad of fighters is by no means even a military presense for Naboo.

[Jeseth Cloak]

Well, my only problem is that I still don't agree with this 30 fighters every 5 days rule. Think about, most of these fighters aren't much bigger than 7 meters. The Empire to date has somewhere over 100,000 fighters and most of our ship technology was upgraded to store masses of fighters. Our SSDs carry over 600 on average.

If any of you ever played Star Wars Rebel Alliance II, you saw that a factory could churn out over 40 fighters in a matter of a few minutes, and the only limit as to how many you could produce is how much you had in the way of resources.

What about if you arrange it so that it takes 2 days to build 40, and require that factories be built to produce more. Each factory could take around two months to build. This is realistic, because a factory in real life takes around that time to build, especially assembly line style factories. If someone has the right resources (i.e., The Empire, The New Republic, The Sith Empire), then there's no reason why this would be out of their reach. Keep in mind that many fighters aren't 4 or 5 meters of solid metal and equipment. Most of them are hollowed out and don't require too much material to construct. It's the actual technology behind the fighters that takes more time to acquire.

Perhaps if you want to set further limits on these fighters, then consider setting a limit so that each planet a group holds can support 2 of them. That would give even further incentive to expand, yes?

[Sanis Prent]

600 droid fighers on a SSD perhaps...but 600 normal fighters? Show me this upgrade, because I seriously can't imagine something as such...as its an incredibly heavy burden on space and resources to increase the fighter complement on a ship by 500%

As for slightly tweaking fighter production rates...it is a slight possibility.

[Pierce Tondry]

Piett: Thought you left. Welcome back.

And here are a few things I thought I'd point out.


Why not go from a five of those to five thirty-meter technology-laden super-fighter-mini-frigate? Who's to stop me?

Conversely, who's to stop someone ELSE from doing exactly that in response? Because that is the biggest reason it isn't done. If people aren't willing to set limits for themselves, we will end up with arguments about whose group can produce the better ultra-wowzers Frigate. So- are you going to walk that path, and in doing so, encourage everyone else to follow? Or will you use a bit of common sense and not go that far?


20 days is a long time, and people like to see the fruits of their labors.

It is this "instant gratification" policy we've had previously that causes trouble. People want to see the fruits of their labors, and they want to see them NOW. But they're not willing to risk that which they've so carefully crafted unless they're certain it won't be destroyed. So they build more ships, and plot and plan and set traps. The battles that were supposed to come on the heels of the ship being launched never happen, or they get cut off, or something. Instead, there's a stockpile of armaments.

Maybe if people got out and used these ships, there would be a need for faster build times.

Would someone please name for me the last Fleet engagement that occurred on SWFans? I do mean the last all-out engagement, not a starship chase, planned victory, or swift over-as-soon-as-it-was-begun battle.


Sure, 250 m of star destroyer will have more volume than a frigate. But a frigate needs high-tech, expensive, and large engines, hyperdrives, nav computers, and the works. In comparison, a Star Destroyer should be a bit more cost effective.

Whatever systems a Frigate has, a Star Destroyer's will be twice as high-tech, twice as expensive, and twice as voluminous. This is what makes Star Destroyers twice as effective in battle (at least!).

I point to hyperspeeds as an example. It takes less technology to push a Frigate to 0.4 hyperdrive modifier than it does to do the same to a Star Destroyer.


Only at the end of ROTJ did anyone use frigates as we know them, so maybe our policy isn't so off.

Return of the Jedi's fleet engagement was a special case. The Rebels were making an all-out attempt to end the Emperor's menace, and so they threw as many of their ships as they possibly could into the mix, including Star Cruisers, Frigates, Galleons, etc. The same goes for Imperial Navy task force set up to trap the Rebels.

What you have to take into account is the following: for every Star Destroyer the Millenium Falcon escaped, there was a battle between Carrack Cruisers on some other planet. For every capital ship in Vader's Death Squadron, there were as many Medium Transports fleeing Hoth. In short, for every engagement between cream-of-the-crop forces we saw in the movies, there were a hundred lesser ships duking it out behind the scenes.

Jes:

If any of you ever played Star Wars Rebel Alliance II, you saw that a factory could churn out over 40 fighters in a matter of a few minutes, and the only limit as to how many you could produce is how much you had in the way of resources.

Remember, this is a video game you're talking about. A video game would have drastically decreased build times to allow for completion of the game within a decent amount of time.

Besides- you probably hacked the build time anyway. :p :lol

[Alpha]

The 1 or 2 big ships thing, does that include my flagship/personal ship, Tolaria (Remind me to put the stats of it up one of these days...)?

[Sanis Prent]

Yes it does.

[Alpha]

oh, ok.

[Alpha]

Ok, here's the 1.5 km fleet:

1 Nova class cruiser (Tolaria again) (400)
1 Battle Dragon (500)
1 Quasar Fire-class Cruiser (Retrofitted for carrier duty)(340)
1 Corellian Gunship(120)
4 Escort shuttles (32)

The fighters are inside the Dragon, Tolaria, and Quasar Fire, unless you meant for me to include fighters in the tally. Then I'll have to change it. All this comes to 1.488 km (1488 metres).

[Mhalbrecht Dalarsco]

Only one of my qualms hasn't already been talked about.
I think that the smaller groups should be alowed a single SSD for a command ship, following the 90 day build rule.

[Force Master Hunter]

Rules discussion guys.




Now, on the issue of fighters and the numbers. We're saying 30 every 5 days is too small? No, I personally dont htink so and here is the reasoning. Bear with me, this is a bit convoluted.

1) Mass production does speed things up, along with JIT supply techniques. The best exponent of this is the car industry. It gathers bits together then just bolts them into one package. IF you see places like Dearborn (Ford), they are nearly the sizes of the shipyards! And they produce thousands of items a days. This I presume is the examply some people think of when they think a yard should be able to produce thousands of fighters - After all fighters arent muct bigger, right?

2) True, BUT, these are dedicated buildings that produce cars and they rarely change production. OTOH, our yards do.

3) Car production plants have a level of quality they can achieve. Qite impressive, but WELL below what is required for a plane. A Plane cant be defective, at all, no option. There are strict laws and maintenance schedules for planes. Why do you think so few drop out of the sky? Even with cars, a off the production line car is well below the qualitly needed for say racing, and I well know that. To build a car ofr racing, you have to start form the beginning and build the thing up by hand. Mass production gives you certain level of quality and no more.

4) Now, even more than that, fighter aircraft demand even more quality in construction. Fighters are mass produced to a degree, but even then the number of checks and tests is high, and the care that has to be taken.... plus a fighter is a seriously complex bit of machinery, far, far beyond say car. Your fighter has to carry everything much larger aircraft has to have, but in a much smaller and complex package and sometimes fighters even have more, especially with weapons delivery systems.

5) But beyond that.... space going craft demand a level of quality far beyond a fighter. You cant build even a satellite fast. Have a look at the extreme lenghts taken to build one. Oh, you could build one yourself, but dont expect it to work. The radiation in space would fry your circuits. Construction for just a satellite is nasty and expensive. AND IT MUST WORK. The space shutte for instance takes months after a refit to test to make sure it is defect free and able to survie a launch and survive space. A vaccuum is one of the toughest places to build for. One failure, your dead.

And a space going fighter???? Man, there is no chance I would want that bulit with geniune mass production techniques. My pilots lives depaend of a functional, able craft that wont fail in space.

Thence, I think yesit is possible a 40 km yard could produce a few hundred craft a day. But working ones? Nope. Slow down and do it right, because you HAVE to, even with advanced contruction techniques. You have to test them. fix em. make them work in space. They are highly complex machines and rushing their production is suicide and has been proven to NOT work.

To use a car analogy again, ssay Dearborn produce 600 cars per day. Want to guess on the number coming out with defects?

Believe it or not, just about all have some sort of issue off the line. That is why dealerships have predelivery, to fix the problems. Now, slow it down to say 2 or three a day and the level of out of factory defects becomes very low - that your Porsche. It also helps a Porsche gets rigorously tested before it leaves the factory. You cant really do that in a facility like Ford, too big.

So, I would say even a large facility like our yards can only produce a limited amount of fighters. 30 per five days seem about right, given resource location, logistics, pre construction, being sent down the line, QA, testing, more QA, final tests, signoff. Even that would take a lot of resource for a yard.

My guess is that only droid fighters could be built really quick, cause who gives a toss if a droid fighter fails? They are expendible. Your Pilots are NOT.

Sory this is long and twisting. But this is the reasoning why I think Fighters cant be produced quick at all.

[Admiral Lebron]

What about factories? I mean, hell, companies and manufacturers in Starwars most likely have ten to a hundred factories in the galaxy, mining and building the basic parts for the ship, then they go to the yards and are slapped together, then sent to some facility where they are inspected. So really, hundred fighters could be build in a day, but won't be on the lines for another three or four. So see where I am coming from?

Also, what about blaster and other hand weapon producing plants?

[Sanis Prent]

But when you are limited to TWO such facilities...it severely limits this ability.

[Admiral Lebron]

Depends on the planets. If you have 2+ industrial/city worlds. You could have a few of these factories.

[Sanis Prent]

You're missing the point....standard factions are limited to two shipyards.

[Admiral Lebron]

But they aren't shipyards! The factories are more like refining plants. Not the yards!

[Sanis Prent]

My point is...if we included factories, we'd have to include about 2000 other little pit stops on the whole construction infrastructure...which we're simply not gonna do. I don't want to have to RP popping a rivet onto a TIE fighter. Shipyards are as in-depth as we're gonna get here....adding more to the equation is simply tedious drudgery that is not fun.

[Alpha]

That makes quite a bit of sense actually...

[Admiral Lebron]

Okay, what about blaster producing plants? I mean, construction yards don't make those, do they? And Armor too!

[Jeseth Cloak]

The Empire largely uses droid fighters, which is why the 30 every five-day rule is absurd. Also, if right now we can produce over 100 cars every week in factories, with our relatively primitive technology, then there's no doubt that the factories in Star Wars wouldn't be so crude that they couldn't handle running droid-driven tests on these fighters within a matter of an hour or two each, which would still leave you at 24 to 12 fighters a day, which multiplied by 7 days in a week is still a much higher number than 30.

Shipyards don't even produce the fighters anyway, they're built in separate facilities, and fighters are not nearly as complex because all of the larger ships (which I do agree would take a lot of testing to complete correctly). They would no doubt require an impressive compliment of droid testers to ensure that the ship is in working order. Fighters would require probably one droid each and testing could be done quite quickly. It only took R2-D2 about a minute or two to run a test and tell if Luke's X-Wing was working fine.

[Sanis Prent]

Please refer to my above comments as to why fighter-specific factories are bad ideas.

Also...we're working on a "fodder-fighter" option for the build issue, so if thats your overriding concern, we're already on it.

[Grand Admiral Thrawn]

Also, if right now we can produce over 100 cars every week in factories, with our relatively primitive technology, then there's no doubt that the factories in Star Wars wouldn't be so crude that they couldn't handle running droid-driven tests on these fighters within a matter of an hour or two each, which would still leave you at 24 to 12 fighters a day, which multiplied by 7 days in a week is still a much higher number than 30.

But starfighters AREN'T cars, they're more like fighter jets, yet advanced. Do you know how much work is put into creating a hyperdrive properly? Or how long it'd take to produce a laser cannon, make sure it works properly and then fasten it on to the fighter? Or how about the nav computer that needs to be programmed? Not to mention life support systems, targeting computers, and everything else involved in producing a single standard TIE fighter?

I happen to find the fighter rule, most realistic (although it is a pain in the a**)


Shipyards don't even produce the fighters anyway, they're built in separate facilities, and fighters are not nearly as complex because all of the larger ships (which I do agree would take a lot of testing to complete correctly).

Of course Fighters are built in shipyards, according to most SWs strategy games around. We build our TIE devils in Construction Yards because they are under 6m, which was agreed a while ago.


They would no doubt require an impressive compliment of droid testers to ensure that the ship is in working order. Fighters would require probably one droid each and testing could be done quite quickly. It only took R2-D2 about a minute or two to run a test and tell if Luke's X-Wing was working fine.

R2-D2 was an Astromech droid, his primary function was to map out navigation paths and hyperspace routes (Since X-wings have hyperdrives). Running pre-flight checks CAN be done without astromech droids. The Empire's TIE starfighters can run pre-flight checks. Along with XJ X-wings which do not require astromechs.

[Jeseth Cloak]

You forget that in the star wars universe ships are pretty mcuh the equivalent of cars. You don't see anyone getting from planet to planet in a land speeder do you?

Fodder fighters are my only primary concern as of now anyway. As long as you include something to acknowledge them, then i'm fine...

[Seth Darkserpent]

No, small transports and yachts with NO weapons are the equivalent of cars. Starfighters are military ships. You don't see a family from Coruscant riding in 4-5 X-wings. They ride in personal ships or transports. Only smugglers/privateers/Imperials/Rebels/Sith/Jedi have weapons on their ships.

[imported_Firebird1]

You know, I really don't need to read this thread tonight after all the insanity else where. But I will say this...I am not happy with the reasons for Why and the changes.

Once again I see that someone wants to change these Stupid rules and attempt to run fleets their way, and force that way on to others. So I say this....EAT CAKE!!!

As far as I am concerned all these problems and rules can go bye-bye. If we are going to completely change the rules every 6 months then lets do this.... Lets just have two major fleets, Imperial and New Republic. Everyone else can have their own ships, and access to these fleets.

I'm tired of seeing this stuff coming back to haunt us every half of a year or less! There fore we need a permanate guide created for us and we need to stick to it.

[Sanis Prent]

Originally posted by Firebird1
I'm tired of seeing this stuff coming back to haunt us every half of a year or less! There fore we need a permanate guide created for us and we need to stick to it.

Congrats....you summed up what we're trying to do here.

(gives bird a cookie)

[imported_Firebird1]

Cookie; Is; Not; Needed[r]


All I can say is good luck. I just think that in Six months or sooner these will be changed by whomever has the most control of the Fleets. Yes some things I like, but other things I don't like.

[Sanis Prent]

Are you implying that FMH, Tondry, and myself control the lion's share of the fleets here? :eek

Yes, the mighty forces of Imperial Intelligence, Cizerack Pride, and NRSF will triumph over all :rolleyes

We're working on these rules to be fundamentally different from other rule sets. We're going for objective moderation, instead for legalese, numerical trappings, and loopholes. That means that the entire system should be more pliant to changes, as the core of it will be moderated.

Now, rules are always gonna change. You can't just crank out rules that fit the times forever. Look at D&D, their rules always change. What we'd like to do is reduce these "overhauls" that we seem to face every 6 months, as you say.

[Lord Fire Blade]

I have, for obvious Out of Character reasons, declined to comment on debates, on rules and such. I could indeed be seen as a shrew or a proxy for other opinions, I do realise that and I am concious of that fact. On the rare times I am here, I stay away from arguments, because I dont wish to be involved.

That out of the way, I would like to speak.

The proposal is not perfect aand I would say no rules ever will be. I do however believe that handing power to good moderators, like Pierce, is a very, very good move and I would think this will solve a lot of problems quick. He is a roleplayer a step above others and I do believe he is impartial.

The production rates are far too high for large ships. It is clear to me, the fighter rates are slowish, but will serve. I do think you should slow the bigger craft down and personally, anything over a Star Destroyer is silly and should be banned. I do not think any super laser ships (Come on, that is wrong) should be allowed. I further dont think anyone be aloowed a Death Star. What is this, are we battling the Galaxy for real? Having juvenile power games?

Some of the devised technology is not what i will call correct either. Not being a great person for doing anything outside of the movies, I do think you go too far. I personally strive to keep simple and execute one character, realistically. I find no need to carry anything else than a Force Pike. What is wrong with keeping it simple?

By and by, not being a fleet roleplayer, there is sense in the proposal. I struggle to believe Hunter did that on his own :-P

I will say one thing further. One of the reasons I do not come here more often is that I find some player's attitudes counter productive, hostile, arrogant and downright offensive. I understand when young adults come here, they try too hard and come across wrong, that is not an issue to me and I would wish some of you would lighten up on them.

I direct my comments at persons that I dont believe I need name. I cringe when I see unjustified and juvenile comments, you are the reason why good players leave. I would say grow up, because your not God's gift to roleplaying. Take the chip off the shoulder and be conducive to decent activity

Administrators, Nupraptor, Ogre, I apologise for my words, spoken out of order as they have been. I see examples hereof what I have mentioned and I for one do not wish to see them any longer. They are a discredit to the community.

Edit : I realise this could be seen as a deliberate flame, and it was written "In Fighting Language". But, I believe it needed to be said.

[Mhalbrecht Dalarsco]

If we weren't allowed to make bigger than an ISD, or more advanced, people would lose an amazing form of entertainment.
Me and Lebron's bickering over who has better tech.
Also, tech naturaly evolves.
This takes place some time way after ROTJ, and the tech has advanced between that and the last EU book, and this happens after that, I think.
The tech should and must be allowed to evolve.

[Taylor Millard]

That may be true. However, if you're going to argue over who has better tech, please either take it to another thread (one that you start please), take it to IM, or just start emailing each other. VBulletin does provide a Personal Message service so you may want to try it some time. Plus, you can say what you really want, and not have language editted.

I think legitimate concerns posters (like me) have had, haven't been answered because they have to go through 3 pages of arguments of what starship is better than another.

Now I am not a moderator or an admin so I can't force anyone to do anything. But I'm just making a suggestion on behalf of the other posters.

Now to Admins and Mods, could you explain the Fighter Rule again? Thanks.

[Force Master Hunter]

What exactly do you want explained or discussed? I think it has been answered, but again, it's been buried.

[Sanis Prent]

Well, we've got the 5 days for 30 fighters, which I think covers standard fighters fairly well. However, as some have speculated, we should have a lower tier for "fodderfighter" droid craft. Likely anything smaller than 5 meters.

I suggest 2 days for 50.

[Force Master Hunter]

Like 3m Droid fighters and such?

Yeah, that sounds fair. Might want to cap or lock into a ratio bigger ships to ship thousands being buit.

[imported_Firebird1]

Then you put a build limit on it, say 100 of those ships can be in service at one time. That way they could not spam you with millions of ships that you can't take out that easily...

[ReaperFett]

Thats the problem. Tactical wise, Fighters win battles. Having a cheap way to spam a fight can ruin it

[imported_Firebird1]

So you have to set a resource limit for both big and little ships. With big, you got the increase build time. But for little ships, you'll need to set a numerical limit, something realistic.

[Force Master Hunter]

Well, considering fodder fighters dont have hyperdrives and are shrt range only and I dont think the typical fodder ship could be an atmospheric, come up with a "hangar" allowance for home base, cause the natural limiter of a foddder fighter is the carry capacity of your cruisers. Now, fodder fighters arent THAT much smaller than regular fighters, say a cruiser is allowed to carry 1/4 more fodders than regulars.

You have to bring the things with you in a fight afterall. Pretty dumb to produce fodders without somewhere to base them.

[Evil Hobgoblin]

Thats the problem. Tactical wise, Fighters win battles. Having a cheap way to spam a fight can ruin it

Fett, that's not necessarily true. If a person is going up against an enemy they know will deploy lots of fighters, be they fodder or otherwise, they have the option to arm themselves accordingly. Cluster bombs/traps, Lancer Frigates, and sliced command codes are all options that can potentially be brought to bear against fighters of any type. And it must be pointed out that it has been made abundantly clear in both books and movies that biological soldiers and pilots are more likely to best a droid soldier or pilot than the reverse.

Remember folks, using people that think and can react to changing situations comes with its' own advantages.

[Sanis Prent]

True...if somebody leans one way or another, you have stratagems that can take them out.

Besides, fodder fighters have no shields, maybe 2 laser cannons, and armor as thick as tissue paper. They splode very easily.

[ReaperFett]

Best tactic early on in Rebellion is load up with TIEs. The unshielded ones.

Lancers werent that great in the novels. Now make them fight more of them, and they wouldnt do much.

Just my un-caring about what happens with fleets but wants fairness POV. Then again, Im thinking EU fleet sizes, far smaller from here. But that is another rant.

[Sean Piett]

Why?



I have seen as many people that are against this as people that are for. I have seen not a breath of consideration from those of the 'opposition' to cancel this. It's positively rude. I will not take the offering of the fodder fighter ammendment and happily let the rest slide.

Well, Sanis, you've just made it clear that you, Tondry, and FMH aren't the big fleet guys.

Why, then, did you write up this draft? Why didn't you come to people like Khendon and Summoner, to ask them what they thought was right? You want me to accept an organized plan that will severly limit all the groups, big and small, written by people who, though fair and certainly intelligent, aren't the authorities on the issue?

If the United States was still a colony of England and we broke away, who would write the constitution? Ben Stein or Dick Cheney? Poor example, sure, but an example none the less.

My point is, new rules could do us good. But why should you write them, FMH? As far as I know, you were chosen to be Admin to keep the peace and organize things, not to use your maintinence position to make rules.

[Sean Piett]

Sorry tondry, almost lost your post in the fray.


Conversely, who's to stop someone ELSE from doing exactly that in response? Because that is the biggest reason it isn't done. If people aren't willing to set limits for themselves, we will end up with arguments about whose group can produce the better ultra-wowzers Frigate. So- are you going to walk that path, and in doing so, encourage everyone else to follow? Or will you use a bit of common sense and not go that far?

Noone's going to stop Mysterious Person X under these rules. And if I have to burden a frigate with every peice of available technology to compensate for these rules, I will, and hope others do the same in protest.




It is this "instant gratification" policy we've had previously that causes trouble. People want to see the fruits of their labors, and they want to see them NOW. But they're not willing to risk that which they've so carefully crafted unless they're certain it won't be destroyed. So they build more ships, and plot and plan and set traps. The battles that were supposed to come on the heels of the ship being launched never happen, or they get cut off, or something. Instead, there's a stockpile of armaments.

So what? If noone uses them, why does anyone else care? I care if I lose them, because they're MINE! I'm an immature minor and I don't want to lose anything, even if it's not useful.

It's like our toes. We never use them, but we'd hate to lose them.


Whatever systems a Frigate has, a Star Destroyer's will be twice as high-tech, twice as expensive, and twice as voluminous. This is what makes Star Destroyers twice as effective in battle (at least!).

I'd love to know where you found this information. Every frigate needs it's own life support, engines, hyperdrive, bridge, weapons control, communications... So do star destroyers, but the ratio is not equivilant. A Semi Truck's engine is larger than a car's, but the size difference is not exponential. The amount you can pull is.



Return of the Jedi's fleet engagement was a special case. The Rebels were making an all-out attempt to end the Emperor's menace, and so they threw as many of their ships as they possibly could into the mix, including Star Cruisers, Frigates, Galleons, etc. The same goes for Imperial Navy task force set up to trap the Rebels.

Sure, for the most part. My point was that only the Rebels used frigates. The Imperials had many star destroyers, but no frigates that I saw.


What you have to take into account is the following: for every Star Destroyer the Millenium Falcon escaped, there was a battle between Carrack Cruisers on some other planet. For every capital ship in Vader's Death Squadron, there were as many Medium Transports fleeing Hoth. In short, for every engagement between cream-of-the-crop forces we saw in the movies, there were a hundred lesser ships duking it out behind the scenes.

So you say. I say otherwise, because I daresay the frigates didn't all stay on the left side of the fleet, and then scurry to the back when the camera panned.

[Evil Hobgoblin]

Why, then, did you write up this draft? Why didn't you come to people like Khendon and Summoner, to ask them what they thought was right? You want me to accept an organized plan that will severly limit all the groups, big and small, written by people who, though fair and certainly intelligent, aren't the authorities on the issue?

Actually, I did exactly that. I tried to schedule a meeting between myself, Sums, and whoever else he could bring from TSE's Navy that had things they wanted to discuss about these proposed rules to talk about this. The meeting was set for yesterday afternoon. Unfortunately, I was on that morning, but had to get off and take care of some things. I'd intended to be back online by afternoon, but I got tied up with things I had to take care of and was not able to get back online before I had to go in to work.

I have not seen Sums yet today to reschedule the meeting and am considering e-mailing him to solve the problem if I do not see him soon.

Also, FMH is currently taking an enforced four week break from RPing. I don't know if this will, in fact, last four weeks, but according to a message posted at GJO his wife has temporarily restricted him from RPing due to the recent hubbub over his hidden Admin status. As a result, he is temporarily out of the loop and Sanis and I have the full load on our plates.

[Khendon Sevon]

TSE... you set a meeting with TSE about fleet rping, yet neglected to contact any of the groups, such as TGE, who are devoted to fleet combat? How gracious of you.

[Pierce Tondry]

Sorry tondry, almost lost your post in the fray.

And don't I wish you had! :p


Noone's going to stop Mysterious Person X under these rules. And if I have to burden a frigate with every peice of available technology to compensate for these rules, I will, and hope others do the same in protest.

If you do that, I might consider doing the same to a shuttle and crashing it into your super Frigate to destroy it, at which point you would have wasted quite a bit of time and imaginary credits.

The point I was trying to suggest is that no rules will work if people totally and completely refuse to play reasonably fair. If you can't do that, you haven't got a lot of business playing.


So what? If noone uses them, why does anyone else care? I care if I lose them, because they're MINE! I'm an immature minor and I don't want to lose anything, even if it's not useful.

It's like our toes. We never use them, but we'd hate to lose them.

*Puts thumbtacks in your computer chair.* He did it. *Points at Ogre.*


I'd love to know where you found this information. Every frigate needs it's own life support, engines, hyperdrive, bridge, weapons control, communications... So do star destroyers, but the ratio is not equivilant. A Semi Truck's engine is larger than a car's, but the size difference is not exponential. The amount you can pull is.

I didn't find it, I reasoned it. If you think about it, a tank is more expensive to make than an armored car or a combat jeep (ATV). Reason for it is because it has more dangerous mission profiles. Tanks have more dangerous weaponry and require better armor and control systems as a result. These better systems typically cost more to produce than general ones which are mass produced.


Sure, for the most part. My point was that only the Rebels used frigates. The Imperials had many star destroyers, but no frigates that I saw.

You're correct as far as you go. The Imperials had supply and construction ships at Endor, but the ships there were basically the best the Empire had. They were probably all Star Destroyers, but Star Destroyers that were specially configured for different tasks in case a specific need should arise during battle.

In other words, they were all Star Destroyers, but there were special kinds of Star Destroyers. They weren't all generic.


So you say. I say otherwise, because I daresay the frigates didn't all stay on the left side of the fleet, and then scurry to the back when the camera panned.

Sorry... you lost me on this one. Was this a serious point, or a joking one like the thing I responded to with the thumbtacks?

[Sean Piett]

I don't suppose there's any need to quote you, Tondry, but I will so people know what part I'm responding to.



Actually, I did exactly that. I tried to schedule a meeting between myself, Sums, and whoever else he could bring from TSE's Navy that had things they wanted to discuss about these proposed rules to talk about this. The meeting was set for yesterday afternoon. Unfortunately, I was on that morning, but had to get off and take care of some things. I'd intended to be back online by afternoon, but I got tied up with things I had to take care of and was not able to get back online before I had to go in to work.


This was many days AFTER the fleet draft was posted. A nice idea, but too little too late.


I want this draft outta my house.

Out, draft, out!

[Pierce Tondry]

Khendon: I decided that for something as complex as this is, I would do the groups one at a time. TSE, with a longstanding history at SWFans and a lot of people apparently affected by changing fleet rules, was simply at the top of the list. No one will be ignored once I'm done- but I do ask your patience in this because I can only do so much at once.

While I have your attention, have you got AIM?

[Pierce Tondry]

This was many days AFTER the fleet draft was posted. A nice idea, but too little too late.

Of course it was after the fleet draft was posted. I was made a moderator after the fleet draft was mostly completed, so I myself came into the pre-planning process late. Given my schedule and the events happening on SWFans recently, it is no surprise to me that I haven't gotten to it.

When I start being online 24/7, then you have the right to criticize me for not getting to things immediately. Until then (and I pray my life never gets that bad) people will simply have to be patient with me because things will take time.

[ReaperFett]

you know what draft means? attempt. Doesnt say "this is the rules", does it? The thread is here. You got comments? Post them here, in the DRAFT

[Sean Piett]

That's precisely what I'm doing, Reaper. But these are as good as rules, unless the supporters give up out of exhaustion.


No more quoting, Sniper. We could keep on countering each other indefinately. Fact is, I'm right.

:cool

And no, I wasn't joking in that last part. My point is, it's not possible for frigates to duke it out behind the scenes, unseen by the good viewers.

[Pierce Tondry]

I'm glad you were able to admit that, Piett.

*Innocent whistling.*

What? I just... edited some HTML in that post. Yeah... that's it. HTML...

:angel

[Sean Piett]

Nice try, but I'M the aggressor in this thread >D

[Khendon Sevon]

*scrolls down page*
my aim is 'ietib'

[imported_Firebird1]

When did you contact TSE?
Because I don't remember hearing anything about it.
You may of talked to Lynch or Summs or Ogre, so if one of them could post then I'd know that they were watching.


Also I still don't see the reason to change things, or why we need to move everything here. Next you'll be asking for access to our secret forums. There is alot I can put up with, but when I cut loose, I cut losse.

[Sean Piett]

Point of order. This is a draft? Open to discussion. I call for a revision. It's possible that through discussion we can revise these rules to accomodate all those concerned.

[imported_Firebird1]

Wha, no answers?

[Sanis Prent]

Tondry's very busy. Please give him time to respond.

[Sanis Prent]

Next you'll be asking for access to our secret forums.

If the secret forums are where you keep ship rosters and construction threads, then yes, we will. We're trying to enable a system in which this information can be easily looked up for reference purposes. As far as secretive R&D, I believe I already addressed this issue with Sumor. No in-depth description of such needs to be posted in the forums, but simply mentioning a type of R&D, and when it begins and ends. The actual description of the R&D project can still be kept secret on your board, but it would help if there was a tag here stating something like "R&D Project, propulsion" if you were designing a new engine system. It can be vague, all we ask is that the information is concise, and accessible to all. It prevents groups from cutting corners on construction times, or lying about ship numbers and such. We won't worry about if TIR is building ISD's in a day, or if TGE has 1000 illegal ships. With the information at our fingertips, we can move on to more important concerns.

[Pierce Tondry]

Firebird: In fact, I talked to Sums and asked him to get together as many people as he could from TSE who had an interest in seeing organized changes made to the Fleet Rules. Since that whole thing was scheduled for last Friday (as I posted earlier) it's obvious that the attempt has fallen through.

I am in the process of regrouping and trying again, but my work and school schedules are heavy this week and I have no projected free time until Friday at the earliest.

If you're interested in being part of such talks, let me know.

[imported_Firebird1]

Friday night I work...:\
Let me Tomarrow check my scheduale at work and see when I can get with you all.

[Pierce Tondry]

Firebird: Yeah, it isn't easy manuevering between work and school. If I have to, I'll do this entire thing one-by-one. Tell me when I can get ahold of you and I'll work to make it happen.

[Varlon Konrad]

Firebird: In fact, I talked to Sums and asked him to get together as many people as he could from TSE who had an interest in seeing organized changes made to the Fleet Rules. Since that whole thing was scheduled for last Friday (as I posted earlier) it's obvious that the attempt has fallen through.
Never heard a word from either you or Sumor, and I'm one of the top officials for TSE's fleet operations.

[Pierce Tondry]

Varlon: I thought I mentioned your name to Sums specifically, because I knew you were involved in Operation Apocalypse and figured you to be fleet-involved because of that.

Important Tip: Save important AIM conversations people! I am so kicking myself now for not having saved that one. It would have prevented the headache I'm getting from trying to remember what went on.

Anyway, Varlon... when are you free to talk?

Edit: FB, do you really want that post deleted?

[Varlon Konrad]

Peirce, any time I'm on I'm usually able to do some chit-chat. Just got to catch me on. (And I'm on a lot, too).

[imported_Firebird1]

Yeah, I did..thanks!

Well, I have all day Sunday, so just set a time and I'll make it.