Addressing the subject of the poll.

[Pierce Tondry]

The issue has been up for two days, and the sides are pretty evident. Very few people, if any, like the fact that there might be a hidden admin.

Some people really don't care.

My position was made clear, and now that we have all the information, we have to figure out what to do on the matter.

Which really isn't anything, in my opinion. The topic was started to get people's feelings on a particular matter. There aren't any plots to discredit people in the works (at least, not that I know of), and the topic has run its' course.

In truth, I think the subject was bandied about enough that people can read between the lines enough to know what has gone on. If you're not good with that, I will make it clear.

The Force Master Hunter ID has had Administrator status attached to it while being listed as a Moderator.

While I personally am not thrilled about this, I do not think this carries with it any serious repercussions. No harm occurred, so no foul, right? Given that the trust of Administration duties has been placed in FMH's hands in the past and he has not abused it, I think the infraction (if it is bad enough to be an infraction) is minor at worst, and at best it is something that we don't really need to worry about. And now the people who wanted the right to know what's going on, know.

So, now that that's been said I have to ask: do people agree with me? Do we really need to do anything about this, or should we let it go?

My personal opinion is that we should all just chill and have a nice, tall, cool, frothy glass of OJ. :)

Edit: Changed hidden mod to hidden admin.

[ReaperFett]

dont care about it one bit. More admins = better run, to an extent. We see him as a person with power, does it matter if we know his full capabilities? Not for me. Ive got nothing to hide from a hidden admin, why would I mind?

[imported_Firebird1]

Ok, so the question to ask now is why he was a hidden Admin? Did they need a third to help out?
I don't think people should get mad at this untill they have the full story.

[Nobuo Hyde]

Screw hidden. Somehow this is starting to remind me of a big corporation, or trust. Don't make me sick the govn't on your ****.

[Jedah Lynch]

What was the point of closing the other thread and then posting this? Couldnt it have been posted in the other thread? Maybe too many good opinons were in it:)

Ah well.

Okay DT was an admin again, so the question would be why was he made an admin, under what situation and why this was not revealed to the general public as previous admin or mod positions have been.

And of course what happened to bring up the issue in the first place, did all the admins or mods know about it right from the start or only revealed to it lately themselves?

Will this mean more mods or admins will be given such spots in the future without the general board populace not knowing about it to form some sort of shadow cabinet?

Pierce called it an infraction, what exactly occurred for this to be as such exactly?

When it comes down to it, if your a mod you should be listed as such.

If your an admin you should be listed as such.

Anything else then open and full communication/honesty between those that take care of the board and those who post on it leads to trouble and such threads as this. But that goes without saying.

[Nupraptor]

Ok... I know that I'm likely going to anger someone who may consider me a friend, but I'm going to tell it like it is (or at least, how my personal interpretation of how it is). I'm going to start from the top, so pardon me if I sound redundant.

A little while ago, DT posted this (http://pub2.ezboard.com/fswvstitanicfrm15.showMessage?topicID=1057.topic) thread, stating that he no longer desired to be an Admin of SWFans, citing that he found it too stressful. Very understandable: Trust me, I know. So he was henceforth made a Moderator.

Now, when Ogre and I were setting up this board, DT contacted me and asked me if it was possible to grant him Admin powers yet allow him to remain listed as a Mod. I told him that it was, and he requested that I do so. I believe that his reason for making this request was so that he could look over the options vBulletin had, since he was going to soon be an admin of a vB at his place of work.

I went ahead and granted him Admin powers on the good faith that he has previously been an Admin, whereas I had not: I, in fact, had no right to be an Admin, so what right did I have to deny his request? I simply asked that he not alter anything too much in the Admin Control Panel since we all were still learning how to use it. In hindsight, I'm as much to blame for this mess as anyone else, since it required my approval for it to happen. I was trying to be a nice guy and help him out.

The poll which was posted was not intended to be an attack on him or anyone else, but was simply to gather your guys opinions on this practice. Regardless of this particular case, it was worth mentioning to you, the posters, to see how you would feel about this happening in the future with other people.

Among other things, you could, in theory, have a situation where none of the Admins make their position publicly known. Then you wouldn't know who to turn to if you needed help in that regard. So yes, it was a concern that could possibly affect the average poster. The staff felt that the 'average poster' should thus have some input on the situation.

[Jedah Lynch]

Being an admin or mod is a stressful job, any of those who ever had such a position at any board knows that fact. The fact is you do the job that your suppose to or give it up to let someone else do it, one does not pretend to be something they are not because they can't cope. Being an mod or admin is often a thankless job with the occassional thank you coming from those whom you just helped or those who are kissing san persons ****. Its been that way for a good long time, chances that shall change are slim.

Back to the issue at hand, the promotion of someone to admin despite them being an mod to let them see what options were available was indeed a nice gesture. If it was right or wrong is up for the people to decide. It should have however been asked of the other admins/mods first. One does not give power or any kind to a friend or fellow Rper just because of a good track record or friendship.

The real question in all this is how long does it exactly take to preview a boards options? If thats all this was for that should have taken only a few days at the maximum. Vbulletin is a wonderful board with many options thus can take awhile but over a month of having an admin ability while NOT suppose to be an admin is indeed pushing it greatly.

One thing shall comment on directly


Among other things, you could, in theory, have a situation where none of the Admins make their position publicly known. Then you wouldn't know who to turn to if you needed help in that regard.

True. But if they didnt make such positions public they wouldnt deserve them in the first place. In theory doubt many people in any country would like having a government controlling their lives and not have any idea who that government is. Same thing goes for the boards. Besides in time everything is revealed one way or another. Someone talks or says something. Either one admin will because of a reason ie: such as a disagreement with another admin or mod. Or perhaps a friend of one of those people who are told things might even start to talk. Other ways to find out too.

Either way you tend to get one annoyed group quick and infighting. Been watching one board elsewhere that has nothing to do with Swfans go this way. Too many people trying to do something they think is right and not talking to the other or listening to the people they are suppose to be helping, what a bloody mess they made in such a short time. Its nice to see though things are at least be taking or dealt with here in a better manner.

[DarthHERA]

The other thread was closed, but I give my opinion anyhow.

I think in this RP venue, that Admins and Mods should have their status openly visible. I also like to know whos what just as a personal preference. Also as with roleplaying where there is already a sensitivity to infiltration etc, it is a good idea.

However, I think the prevalent attitude shown here that the reason behind the stealth Admin can only be one of an underhanded nature is, in a word, "bizare".

Doesnt anyone trust anyone here for crying out loud?
I agree with the "lets chill" sentiment.


Nup and Ogre set up the board, I for one trust in their judgement and if - for whatever reason - there is a silent Admin, THEY obviously know about it and will be monitoring things.

I even think that some decisions we dont need to be aware of. Let the ppl who were voted into their offices, do their jobs. If they screw up too much, the general populace, Im sure, will communicate that to them.

Have a little faith in your fellow-posters people.

[Nupraptor]

I'm going to reply in a point-counterpoint style here:
should have however been asked of the other admins/mods firstThis was mentioned to Ogre (the only other admin at the time) beforehand. I believe he saved the conversation.
The real question in all this is how long does it exactly take to preview a boards options?That was one of the reasons why this was brought up.
But if they didnt make such positions public they wouldnt deserve them in the first placeThat is an opinion: Obviously, there are people who disagree with you on the point, and it is exactly why the Poll was started: to see if that was the way the posters felt.

[Jedah Lynch]

Yup some people are going to disagree, know that most would just because they are DT's friends, that in itself is admirable if not honorable but however when your bring friendships into a mix it just becomes another cliquish situation with a "how many votes can I get to win" case study.

Taking from what is said in this thread and the previous one bet there is a few things not being said due to it being a potential heated topic/debate for some.

So shall take a stab, first what we know.

DT steps down as admin due the pressures and stress of the boards. After the move from Ezboard to Vbulletin DT ask Nup to be made an admin to check out the options, Nup thinking it not a risk does so thinking its not an issue, Ogre is made aware of this and honors the request. A month plus passes and then.....

What?

Something seems to have happened to bring this up now all of a sudden when its been going on for some time. That and Dt's defensive/offensive manner of post in the previous thread implies he wasn't or isn't happy with what happened.

Three possibilities.

1. Its brought up elsewhere DT is still an admin, a debate between the mods and admins begins. Public views on having a person having an ability that is beyond the public's knowledge begins by swfans posting the first thread in OOC.to settle the dispute.

2. Its brought up elsewhere DT is still an admin after an length of time that is beyond what one would need to study a board and is removed. Debate happens and is brought to the public's attention to see their view to settle the dispute.

3. DT is removed from admin list and back to only a mod, upset he then complains inciting a debate which is later brought to the public's attention to settle the dispute.

Could be wrong.

Betting though am right or very close to it.

If that's the case is DT an admin still or is has he been removed?

Is this really all about one person who wasn't suppose to be an admin but due to the friendship with a person who had admin abilities gain them only to cry foul when he was removed or told he was going to lose them as such?

If so.....thats very much screwed up.

[Tujk]

Actually that's DT's usual mannerism. Nothing new, nothing strange. Just the way he is.

Abrasive as 60 grit toilet paper.

Does it matter? Not to me at least, and not to anyone. So there's an admin working behind the scenes. That's something that sometimes needs to happen, so all the admins don't get bogged down with dealing with massive kerfuffles, and forget about maintining what needs to be maintaned behind the scenes.

So the secret's out. Alright, still no big deal.

However, I think it should be pointed out that this was done to prevent someone, that, if not a friend, an aquatance of most people, from getting overwhemled by the little things that people seem so prone to b**** about.

And if he remains as an Admin, that the courtasy given to him as not to overwhelm him, remains in effect.

[Lilaena De'Ville]

Q-- I apologize for my remarks.

Do hidden mods/admins bother me? No.

[imported_Firebird1]

Well, we have been here about a month. So like how much more time does he need? And if more then a week or two you'll need to announce him as a Temp Admin. But once his board is working then he'll have to give up Admin powers here because he can finish his learing at his own board.

[ReaperFett]

I think that to see board features, youd need anything from half to two months. That was one. I see no problem.

And Nobubo, are you EVER going to say anything constructive?

[Q]

Lady DeVille: Your entire post in under the presumption that the poll was somehow direction at FMH. Which, to my understanding, it was not. It was meant to ask how people would feel about this practice continuing.
The poll which was posted was not intended to be an attack on him or anyone else, but was simply to gather your guys opinions on this practice. Regardless of this particular case, it was worth mentioning to you, the posters, to see how you would feel about this happening in the future with other people.

[Pierce Tondry]

Time out.

People, please. I asked what should be done about this situation and gave my own opinion as a thread starter. I did not ask for full-length dissertations to plow through if I want to understand how people feel. High analysis of the situation isn't necessary; that's partly what the other thread was for. All we really need is a suggested course of action and a reason for doing it. Stay on track.

And Lynch, if you can't condense what you've said into a suggested course of action and a reason why, I'm going to have to ignore what you've said on the grounds that I didn't ask for it and shouldn't have to comb through it to find what I need. This isn't a shot against you or anyone else, rather it is a reminder that the thread was started by a Moderator (me) for a purpose (to find out what the average poster believes should be done about the situation) and that we need to stay focussed if a resolution is to be had.

So far, if I'm reading the mood of the people who wrote short posts correctly (you are all wonderful, by the way :)) they aren't disturbed by what's happened or are only mildly disturbed. Some of them don't like the whole of what's happened, but as far as repercussions go there needn't be any.

Firebird, because you were so clear and concise I'll reply to you directly.

First off, it is my understanding that FMH wants to set up a system similar to the VBulletin one at the business where he works. I don't know if he plans to create one from scratch, nor do I know if he plans to simply acquire VBulletin's services. What I do know is that this is a corporate/business action, and it will take time regardless of the situation.

Are you suggesting that we should set a length of time for him to remain a Temporary Admin with an official date at which his Admin powers would be removed?

[imported_Firebird1]

Yes, a cut off date would be a good start, I'd like to hear how Hunter is doing on that one.


And now on to this...

So far, if I'm reading the mood of the people who wrote short posts correctly (you are all wonderful, by the way )
they aren't disturbed by what's happened or are only mildly disturbed. Some of them don't like the whole of what's
happened, but as far as repercussions go there needn't be any.

Lynch has the right to be as mean in this case as anyone who hasn't posted. We don't know if that power has been abused. Eventhough it might not have there is no evidence either way to show that FMH even used his powers.

Look I'll make this clear and to the point since you like short things Ton.

1)FMH had Admin ship that was not disclosed. Weither it was a bad thing or not depends on what he used it for.

2)Lynch has every right to be heard in this as the rest of us.

I hate it when someone in charge (like a Mod or Admin) attempts to say to someone "I don't like you so your opinion is Crap!" Even if they hide it, it still shows that they may not be able to handle what was said. So I suggest to you Tonroy that you listen to everyone's opinion, since that is the topic of this thread.

[Nupraptor]

Actually, I was just poking around vBulletin's homepage and I found that they have an Admin Demo Page (http://www.vbulletin.com/admindemo/), which gives anyone who's interested the log in and password of an Admin account on an inactive board. I don't see any reason why this demo can't be used for the the testing FMH wishes to do.

[TheHolo.Net]

Pierce is just as human as the rest of us and is nobly attempting to keep this situation as level headed and non flamitory as possible. For that I respect and thank him. Accusations whether founded or unfounded are not something that need to be slung around here. We are merely trying to figure out how to resolve this situation and make everyone comfortable once again.

I was speaking to Nupraptor earlier, and he has recently learned that there is a place that vBulletin provides to potential customers, where Administrator duties can be acquired and learned, so that one can properly evaluate their product.

I am not completely certain of its location, but Nupraptor said that it was available from the vBulletin homepage, which from what I know is located here:

http://www.vbulletin.com/

EDIT: Speak of the devil and he beats you there by mere seconds. :o:p

[imported_Firebird1]

Mear seconds mean nothing to the man with the Red eye! :mneh

Well, if there is a Demo page for the Admin type stuff, then I see no reason to allow FMH to be an admin. Just pass him the link, make sure he can learn about stuff there, and then remove Admin powers.


Also, in the future don't hide anyones power. I know it gives that person some hidden power over people, but I'd rather see who I am dealing with when I have a problem with the rules and such.

[Taylor Millard]

I normally stay out of discussions such as these, I just prefer to get my stories done so people can read them (maybe that's apathetic of me, in fact, I think it is).

If FMH or DT or whatever he's known as, is using this as a setup for a VBulletin-like board then let him. If he wants to continue as an Admin here, then let him. If the other mods don't have a problem, then let him.

I've only talked to FMH a few times, and I'm new here so I don't know everything that's happened in the past. But if there's no reason for him to not have his admin powers, then I'm going to sit back, relax, have a Sam Adams, go work on my news stories, and then go bug people who haven't posted in the threads I've got. Not in that order ofcourse.

EDIT- My first line had nothing to do with what was being discussed now.

[Jedah Lynch]

If people are able to voice their opinon they will make them in long or short post. My advice is get use to it, you'll be seeing it in the future. As a mod you listen to the people, the key word being listen, you took the duty so deal with it.

There are potential statements made by some that could be futher debated as exactly what they mean but they dont exactly have anything to do with this particular topic at hand. However seems some are getting tense around here. So shall not bring them up now so that tension can erode over the next few days.

And seems the solution has been found so what else needs to be said?

I'll spare the staff a lecture for now.

:)

[Pierce Tondry]

My advice is get use to it, you'll be seeing it in the future. As a mod you listen to the people, the key word being listen, you took the duty so deal with it.

When a Mod or Admin has to plow through a thread full of posts and figure out people's opinions on a subject, it helps if there's something at the end saying "So here's what I think and why." If I can't figure out what your opinion is, I can't include it in the decision making process.

(P.S. I know we talked about this over AIM, but I just wanted to respond to this particular point of yours so that people who read this thread will understand what I was trying to say earlier. I believe it was misinterpretable by the way it was worded, and am trying to remedy that.)


Lynch has the right to be as mean in this case as anyone who hasn't posted.

*Amused.* Are you saying people have a right to be mean, Firebird?


I hate it when someone in charge (like a Mod or Admin) attempts to say to someone "I don't like you so your opinion is Crap!" Even if they hide it, it still shows that they may not be able to handle what was said. So I suggest to you Tonroy that you listen to everyone's opinion, since that is the topic of this thread

You're making a wrong assumption here. I have nothing against Lynch. I've spoken with him several times over AIM, and nothing has ever happened between us that would prompt me to dislike him as a person.

The problem is that I attempted to read his posts and couldn't understand what he was saying. He didn't give me an opinion that I could find. I pillaged his posts for it and got lost. It occurred to me that some of what he was saying was potentially inflammatory, and I felt it best to try and steer the conversation back on track. If you'll re-read my post, I believe the words "This isn't a shot at you or anyone else" are in there. I meant that.

I don't like the fact that you have automatically assumed the worst about me simply because I am a moderator. I am here to help, and would like people to be as fair with me as I am with them.

Let's break things down to a personal level for a sec. You were the first person to ever respond to one of my posts on SWFans. Attack on the Death Star, summer a year ago. You appeared inside my ship and commandeered it to TSE space. Remember that? I do, and with a smile.

I don't think I'm drunk with power over a week's worth of Modship. I really am trying to be fair, and sometimes in a position of authority that means saying or doing things that bring people into order, particularly if things get chaotic. I felt that was happening and made a post. I did not intend to come off the way you thought I was, and do not intend to be that way either. I hope you'll believe that.

[Jedah Lynch]

(P.S. I know we talked about this over AIM, but I just wanted to respond to this particular point of yours so that people who read this thread will understand what I was trying to say earlier. I believe it was misinterpretable by the way it was worded, and am trying to remedy that.)

No problem.

Leet a short reply!

Its a miracle!

A MIRACLE!!!!!!!!!!!

PS.....if you tell anyone we managed to balance the nations budget and solve the eternal question of how they get the caramel into the choclate bar I shall have to dispatch you in a fairly ingenious fashion.

*goes to store to buy gummy bears*

PSS...
Lynch has the right to be as mean in this case as anyone who hasn't posted.

Actually I was trying to bring my point across, wasnt trying to be mean or bashing someone simply because I could. Was more or less being vocal in my own way about an issue that I took to be important and didn't want to see swept under the rug. If came off hostile its only because I believed in what I was saying and thats just the way I'am:)

*Issa grump*

If if was trying to be hostile or mean on purpose for the sake of being mean or hostile..or was really trying to bash someone I'd probably be banned by now. *knock on wood*:p

[imported_Firebird1]

Nevermind.O_o

I just get mad when I see someone telling someone else their opinion is not needed.