**Important Poll**

[TheHolo.Net]

Please respond to my poll here, as I believe it is important.

I am not going to mention any specific details but would like the opinions of you, the people who make this community what it is. It is after all your board, not the staff’s. And I really do see it as such and try to do all I can to please as many of you as possible in how it looks, how it works, and how it is run.

On to my request for opinions;

Do you think it right for any part of the staff here to be a part of the staff yet not have you the posters fully aware of their status?

Let me give you a fictious example so my question makes as much sense as possible.

Say that a member by the name of Darth Sol, is displayed to all of you as a regular poster, or even a moderator within their user title, yet in fact that is not true, they actually posses the rights and abilities of an Administrator. Would you the members of the community have a problem with such a thing and why or why not?

[ReaperFett]

Undercover agents :)


Nah, wouldn't bother me, providing it wasnt like EVERY mod had power, plus anyone who is very, very nice to an admin. We dont need more than 3 admins and 4 mods, absolute max

[Tasha Kozkis]

I'd like to know the straight up. The last thing we need is someone playing mindgames with us. Thats ok when you are roleplaying, not running a board.

[ReaperFett]

oh, I can see why it is good. For one, it means someone can get on with Adminning, not dealing with hundreds of tiny disputes

[Delirion]

I fully agree with Tasha. First of all, the Admins, as well as the Mods, are there for any of us if there are any problems with the board or with Roleplaying. If we don't know who to talk to, or who really deals with things, then that isn't very constructive.

Apart from that - I'd like to know why any person would deliberately keep it a secret that he or she is an Admin. It doesn't say much about the person's intentions, or personality.

So yes, I'd definately want to know.

[Sanis Prent]

Ich will Geheime Staatspolizei nicht!

In other words...

...I don't think that its the best of ideas. As much as it might drive us to expensive morphine addictions, its the admins and moderators jobs to be public and accessable.

[Laran Katern]

I think that you should be able to see who has what powers, that way you know who is capable of what. Will save on disputes further down the road and properly establish who are the heads of the board

[Nobuo Hyde]

too many admins....

[Q]

According to the Administration List (http://www.swforums.net/forum/showthread.php?s=&threadid=50), the only Admins are Ogre and the generic SWFans.net account. I don't see how that's "too many", Hyde.

[Warren Azalin]

People should be able to know what people have what powers. A Mod with Admin powers would be a tad on the underhanded side.

[TheHolo.Net]

Looks at the Administrator's list and wonders why Davwj removed himself from it

o_O

[ReaperFett]

Why underhanded?

Remember, Admins have dropped before because it basically stops them RPing. Do we really want to end up with the leftovers adminning, as noone else will do it?

[Q]

Originally posted by SWFans.Net
Looks at the Administrator's list and wonders why Davwj removed himself from it Perhaps he wanted to avoid quesitons like "Who is this guy and why is he an admin?" :)

[Tasha Kozkis]

Its underhanded because its lying.

[Warren Azalin]

Underhanded because it would be a facade. Telling everyone one thing while doing something entirely different. Plus when it comes to power such as Admins and Mods people should know who holds these powers you know.

[Nobuo Hyde]

well then, if not admins, then its too many mods.

[ReaperFett]

So, it is underhanded that they want to work behind the scenes and make the place better without bother?

[TheHolo.Net]

Who is to say for certian that they are actually doing anything to make the place better that they couldn't also do as a moderator or even a poster?

[Delirion]

Originally posted by ReaperFett

Remember, Admins have dropped before because it basically stops them RPing. Do we really want to end up with the leftovers adminning, as noone else will do it?

Yes, and when they "dropped", as you call it, everyone else was informed about this. If someone wants to be an Admin or a Mod, it should be for the right reasons: meaning that the person agrees to be openly accessible to anyone in case there are any problems. That is what an Admin/Mod should be ther for. Anything else is just a case of that person trying to shirk his/her responsibilities.

[ReaperFett]

Its like Jedi Knights and Masters. They can both do a job. Some are just better suited :)

And Nobuo, how can 4 be too many? WHat happens if there is a mod needed, and noone is round to deal with it? Only prob I can see is that there is a timezone gap, but there arent a huge number in this gap, so it isnt really a concern for this board

[ReaperFett]

But Del, my point is they dropped BECAUSE of the fact they stopped RPing. Why? because of all they had to do. By not being known, an essence of that is gone

[Delirion]

I don't see how that changes anything about the point in question. If whoever this is about is officially declaring himself a Mod, he already has a certain amount of time to spend being accessible to those who have problems. I don't see why there should be any reason that person would keep it secret that he/she is in reality an Admin - if not for the sole and only reason that that person is on some massive power trip.

[Lord Gue]

1. Do you think it right for any part of the staff here to be a part of the staff yet not have you the posters fully aware of their status?

I think its up to them to let other people know, I mean if they do something and someone would like to know who did it they should have the right to know as well.

2. Let me give you a fictious example so my question makes as much sense as possible.

Say that a member by the name of Darth Sol, is displayed to all of you as a regular poster, or even a moderator within their user title, yet in fact that is not true, they actually posses the rights and abilities of an Administrator. Would you the members of the community have a problem with such a thing and why or why not?

It would be better not knowing who has admin or mod powers, that way when people decide to screw up things or agrivate a situation they have to watch themselves better cuase they dont know who to be carefull about

[Hart]

A person can go by whatever name they want, for whatever purpose they want.

[Pierce Tondry]

As a moderator of this board, I have an official capacity at SWFans that prompts me to speak now.

So I'm on the "Jay" half of my "Jay and Silent Mod" personality. :)

I took the position of Moderator for the board knowing that there would be many irritations associated with performing its' duties. I felt that what I could add to the Fleet situation outweighed the potential problems. So I went through with it openly and aboveboard. I wanted people to know I could help if they needed me.

I must say that, having taken the path I took, I do not like this even being posed as a hypothetical question. I personally feel that matters of public service, so to speak, should be done in the public eye. There is an honesty, a trust, and an openness that would not be present in the hypothetical situation. Why be an Administrator if you don't intend to be available to the general public should they need you?

That's all I have to say at the moment. Should anyone (i.e. Fett :)) decide to reply to my opinions, I may say more.

[imported_Firebird1]

???

I hope you just drop the Silent Bob thing altogether... :D

But I'd like to know who is an Admin or Mod here. Yes they can RP under a different name, and yes it does make it hard for people to RP. But they are needed.

[imported_Dara Shadowtide]

Delirion and Tondry have best summed up what is also my opinion on the proposal. I agree that the staff of the board should be publically known and listed.

[TheHolo.Net]

Current tally of this poll:

Against the proposed hypothetical: 8
Indifferent/accepting the proposed hypothetical: 3

Eleven votes out of 700+ registered members. I’d like to see more opinions and hear more thoughts. Thanks go out to those of you who have shared yours so far.

[Lilaena De'Ville]

People posing as what they are not to trick people? That would be bad. People using admin powers secretly to do bad things? That would also be bad.

If "Darth Doe" is using said admin powers for a harmless reason, then I don't really care. Needless to say, there could be better ways to do this that the way it is being done. If said Mod/hidden Admin is someone we all can at least respect (I mean, after all they are already a Mod) then WHO CARES? I don't.

Thank you for wasting my time ;) *trundles off to use her secret Admin powers* BWAHAHAHA

[ReaperFett]

Some people do sound so overly paranoid about not knowing someones powers. It isnt like they will steal your credit card numbers :)

Does this mean there are less people to ask to edit posts etc?
No

Does this mean that we are being watched by someone who you dont know is an admin?
Yes, but explain how that is bad. Unless you make a habit of whining about people in power

Does it mean that they can get on with the behind the scenes jobs
Yep

What if, say, someone did the job at work? They wouldnt be pestered about little things that can wait a few hours, but they can be there for if the board is in trouble



I just fear that give it a few months, and another will want to give it up so they can RP more once more. And another. And another. Then we have to get more. And so on, until you could be left with scraping the barrel

[Force Master Hunter]

In most boards I go to, the motorracing ones and the tech ones, no one knows whom the admins are half the time and no one cares. As long as there is no abuse of power, does it matter? If there is a problem, someone calls out for help and someone responds. In the rally lists and security lists, I have no idea who the admins and moderators are and there is no problems - no one raises a question if the list is run well. If the list isnt run well, people just plain leave.

In my line of work, it is also quite commmon for outsiders to have administrative rights without user knowledge. As long as the admin rights holder is trustworthy and does what they promises, there is no issue at all.

[Delirion]

I don't care whether it's done differently on other boards - this isn't "other boards". I thought by now even you would have realised that it's not just about what YOU do (or what each single person does for himself), but that we have a community here which looks on Admins and Mods as the people who can assist and offer advice if there are problems. That's what Admins and Mods are there for - if they're not openly available to everyone, I don't know what we need them for. Yes, it takes up time to deal with everyone's problems, but that's what the person who agreed to being a Mod or Admin should know from the start. If he or she doesn't, then I don't know what good that Admin or Mod is.

Also you're forgetting that there are a lot of different people here of all ages. They don't all know as much or are as good at RPing as you think you are - so the Admins and Mods have to be openly accessible to them to help out. On your other boards it might be differently - possibly because it's a different age group? - but that's another place, with another set of rules.

[Rama]

Why would this person need to hide the fact that have Adm powers? And why would it be such a crime to tell people. It is the Peoples board....and we do have a right to know who pushes the buttons, since we put you there.

[Melusine Galelei]

I'd prefer to know at some point, but chances are I would forget a week later. ^^;; So, it don't really bother me, a lot of boards don't out front say who the Admins or Mods are.

[Force Master Hunter]

Also you're forgetting that there are a lot of different people here of all ages. They don't all know as much or are as good at RPing as you think you are - so the Admins and Mods have to be openly accessible to them to help out. On your other boards it might be differently - possibly because it's a different age group? - but that's another place, with another set of rules.

GVR4 forums - the owner and sole admin is not contactable. Yet he appears from nowhere when a problem occurs or questions need answering and vanishes again. It gets 300 - 400 messages a day. There is a moderator, but no one has a clue whom they are. But someone is definantly there, closing, moving, deleting as need be.

NSWRally list - 400 memebers, a highly volatile list, with a lot of huge egos and people who build and run machinery worth hundreds of thousands. Bucnh of juvenile idiots at times. Administrator is named, but never is there. Moderators are again unknown, except one.

Slashdot - Good reason never to say if you have admin there. Abuse time. And the silent moderator system there means you have no idea ever whom it is, except when your randomly given mod points.

GJO - list the admins apart from me and Yog if you can, or whom the moderators are. Does anyone care? That gets the same type of people and is a tight community too.

DV editing forum - again, absolutly no idea who the moderators are.

HarryPotterguide forums - one known owner. You straight out do what she says. Yes I lurk there, it's funny place.

CTI / Planwell support forums - No one has a clue I am the sole admin.

All - apart from slashdot, which has it's rather unique standards - work quite well and no one knows who is in charge. For the CTI forum, I will not tell anyone what my details are, or even whom I am as I dont want to be hit with emails and AIM requests.

It is my experience, no one cares who the admins are, unless things are being run exceedingly poorly. And at that point, people leave anyway. It's up to the long time posters to break in newbies normally. At the Rally list, I will answer questions on ECU's and rotary pwered cars, that is what I am acknowledged on that list to know about and I am not a moderator and sure as hell dont want to be.

You can claim it's the "people's" board - but legally, it is the board of the owner and they set the rules, or lack thereof. They can take control at any time. For example, the owner of SWFans EZboard - and make no mistake HE owned it - decided he did not like how it was being run in July 1999 and dismissed the admins / moderators without recourse. Yep, cires of people's forum then. Didnt mean jack, he owned SWFans.net forums. Of course, CC.Net came out of that and Jason appointed new admins that he believed would run SWFans the way he wanted to be run. But the point is, you can claim this is a "people's" forum all you want, it is not. Legally, as Nupraptor paid for it, it is his. If something illegal was done here, he could be the one liable. Not the "community", Nupraptor. He may have conceded control, but make no mistake, his property in the eyes of the law. There's even been court cases in that vein, some lost, some won. For instance, if child porn was posted here and left up, he is the one responsible in the eyes of the law for not preventing that.

I'm not suggesting he would, I know how resposible he really is. But, the point remains, SWForums.net is not "owned" byt the posters, it's onwed by Nup.

There are two other prime example of what owenrs can do to forums. TSE had Bhramabull, whho owned the original forum and because of a fight, handed that fourm to me, much to my shock and dismay. He still owns that forum BTW, even if he allowed me to use it for whatever.

There was the more recent case of the enforced move of GJO as well.

I do not suggest the owners of forums are madmen, I point out that the owner has final say, whether we like it or not., whatever our concept of community is. I've seen it time and time again. Plus, he has the legal responsibility.

At least, that's the law Down Under. I'm also pretty certain, if he wanted to, he could place a requirement to concede copyright of all posting as a condition of registering that could stand in court if worded right.

To sum up - in most places I go, for different reasons, most admins and mods are unknown and there is no issue. And when I do post in other places, it is in the understanding, whoever owns the place sets the rules, even if the rule is let the addmins deal with it.

[Jedah Lynch]

This is where the going to be around and bug some comes in....heh

Sounds to me like the person wouldn't want to be identified so he or she could get away with knowing stuff or doing things without being held accountable.

Everyone in a position where they can control and affect others needs to be held liable for their actions. When a person isn't held accountable then that person will often abuse their abilities to some degree. After all, why else would they not want people to know what they can do? Clearly they want to get away with something.

If any admin or mod wants to play other alt characters under other names and not have people know its them, it's one thing. But to have someone who does not need to reveal he is a mod or admin at all is plain idiocy.

What would they exactly be hidding from?

Obviously there is something.

And obviously someone is.

They must want it for a reason - but not tell what they can do? Oh yeah....that doesnt sound odd? Hmm well golly I do declare there is something afoul in the jolly forums of swfans, Watson.

If you're a mod then you should be listed as a mod.

If you're an admin you should be listed as an admin.

Once lying to those people they are supposed to help means the corruption of these forums and boards will begin.

It'll be a sad day when those who are supposed to be for the people lie to them. They would have to be afraid of something or someone(s) to do that.

The mods and admins serve the people. Make no doubt about that. Without the people the positions they have mean nothing. If they can not give us honesty and truth they do not deserve the positions in the first place.

When things are revealed in due time and the truth comes out, that is when hell happens and so do arguements. People dont like to be mislead or lied too. They are not asleep. It's advisable to not even remotely go near such a situation in the first place, more importantly such things usually need not too.

I Do believe this is one thing that need not.

After all......what's someone got to be so afraid of by being listed as a mod or admin?

Seems there is something.

Obviously someone and something.

If they cant put up with it, they should shut up and let someone who wont hide and will be open to the people do the job right.

[Delirion]

DT - I can see you still don't get the point. This isn't about other forums, this is about this one. Yes, the creator of the board bears the responsibility for its content - but so do also the Admins, if the creator isn't involved directly; and to some degree, so also are the posters.

I'd like to think this is a place where problems actually are discussed before anything is done, not the other way round - the way you picture it, you wouldn't mind acting first and then brushing the complaints aside.

A good Admin or Mod should look after the board and its posters, and make sure that the rules that are in place are actually being adhered to - it's as much the posters who are responsible for it than everyone else. To see that they understand what they should or shouldn't do to make the board work, and to make RPing work - that's the main job of the Admin and Mod, but apparently that point is totally lost on you.

But if you insist on going on about other Forums where this is handled differently - how about the GJO itself? The entire board had to move because an old Admin came back and decided to hassle them. At the same time, with the proper management of the board, I remember that that was one of the reason people left the GJO, even a reason why there was a new Jedi group for a while.

I don't care what other boards are doing - at least in RPing the groups are there for its members - not the other way round. The members, according to your view (and going by some examples of what I remember after talking to you in the past), seem to serve only a purpose of being there to give the management something to complain about. And that's not what RPing is about.

You know, your insistence on this point makes me wonder why you get so defensive - unless of course, this entire hypothesis is based on you - which would make me wonder what a person who publicly stepped down as an Admin is doing having that Admin power back... without saying so publicly?

[TheHolo.Net]

I didn’t raise this topic for the members of this community to tell me as an Administrator what to do. I raised it so that I could get their views to help me understand where they are all coming from. FMH is right in a way, it is up to the owner of the board to make any “final” say on any issue.

But I see it somewhat differently than he has put it there. I, being one of the admins, believe it my job to do what “I” feel is in the best interests of this board, and that includes listening to the members of the community and weighing their opinions with my own.

I was made a staff member of this board by the people of the community. Yes I am also known as Darth Ogre/Ogre Mal Pannis. And I feel it is the right thing to actually take the time and listen to all of you. I also feel that deceptions in the case of the staff are immoral and inappropriate. In some ways it is completely up to the staff to make your decisions for you, but in some its not true either. Listening to what the people want and doing as they wish is bound to make them enjoy their experience more so and make the community thrive. That is my goal.

Had anyone asked my identity straight out, under this name, would I have lied? The answer is no, because I have nothing to hide. I have no motives other than making this the most fun and interesting place to visit and participate in as at all possible, I do all I can to reflect that in all that I do as a member of the staff.

If anyone disagrees with my opinions I am prepared to listen, not try to force my own on them and that’s what this entire topic is about. Do not be afraid to speak your minds, that’s what we are here for that is what the word forum means to me. A place where you are able to speak your mind as long as it is kept within the guidelines and rules established by either the “law” (of whichever country may apply) or the staff.

[Lord Exar Kun]

Question:
Do you think it right for any part of the staff here to be a part of the staff yet not have you the posters fully aware of their status?

Answer:
I think it is your right as Administrator/Moderator or whatever to list your status however you wish.
If your hypothetical Darth Sol comes across something that is not right (profane language/ slander) then he has that right to perform his duties as expected.
Besides, how can the status be abused?
If the Admins and Mods are doing their jobs, then they will know where the trouble is regardless of whether their status is known or not.
From a company stand-point, every company has a mole so to say. There is always someone, somewhere who might have the ear of upper management that might overhear something and go back and report it.
That is a simple fact of the workplace.
As long as lies are not told and a person unjustly accused without proof of a mis-deed, a status is not something that I would worry about.

[ReaperFett]

You know why it doesnt bother me? Because I have nothing to fear. I dont do anything bad on the boards, so the hidden admins wouldnt affect me. What you all so scared about? Its not as if there will be random account deletions.


And Del, get something right. It wasnt an old admin. It was an old site owner. Unlike here, you cant take off the powers. Huge difference that you can not compare to this

[TheHolo.Net]

I don’t see their opinions as fear Fett. I see them as concern. Normally someone who would tell a mistruth or portray one, is not someone that I would consider trustworthy, and that indicates to me that there is more possibility for lies and or deception.

[ReaperFett]

I mean fear in the concerned sense :)

I just dont get this talk of lies and deception. If this is the case, must ALL RPers reveal EVERY name they use, no matter if it was for a suprise or anything? Same thing

[TheHolo.Net]

Nope, I am saying nothing of that sort.

I am saying that the administrators and moderators of this forum should be trustworthy. Such actions as I mentioned in my hypothetical question, to me at least and it seems quite a few others, indicate abuse of said trust.

[ReaperFett]

I wanst talking about you then either. Is my first line always the errata? :)

I meant others lower down

[Pierce Tondry]

I think the general consensus of opinions here has been presented, and thus the thread has served its' purpose. I will now close the thread.

My first official thread closing. I feel so giddy.