Announcement

[TheHolo.Net]

Most of you may not be aware, but I feel it is your right, just as I truly feel it is the right of all the posters on this board, at least those in the RP section, that FMH is currently an Administrator of this board under the title guise of being only a moderator. I am not exactly certain why this is the case, nor am I comfortable with it.

He publicly stepped down from said administrator position, on this very board(in its old incarnation) and then managed to get the status back but in disguise from Nupraptor when this board was new.

I am not entirely sure why Nup granted him said access, but I think it was mainly to let him see all the options and abilities that an Administrator of vBulletin had, and because he is a very nice guy. Nup told me that FMH asked him about getting said access, FMH requested it from him. (I do have saved IM chats to back this up)

I am much the same(a nice guy) and did actually remove FMH’s Administrator abilities when Nup stepped down from his position. Within twenty four hours, FMH IM’d me and asked why his Admin access was removed. I was rather tired that evening and said something along the lines of your only listed as a Mod and shouldn’t be an Administrator.

He then tells me straight out that Nup had asked him to be an Administrator of the board, which I knew to be false, or at least thought to be because I was speaking with Nup on the evening it occurred and Nup mentioned to me that FMH had asked him for the status and he had gone ahead and granted it.

As I mentioned I was very tired the evening that FMH IM’d me and I wasn’t able to coherently argue his status and the part about it that bugs me the most of all. The fact that he has Admin access but is listed as a Moderator to all those without Administrator access and the ability to look at who belongs to which groups.

As of right now, I am publicly stating here in the Mods/Admins forum, that I am removing his Administrator access and setting him to be what he is displayed to the members of our community, a moderator.

His ideas on the new Fleet rules are from what I know, the only contribution he has really made as part of the staff here and I would like a full explanation as to why he should have Administrator access and exactly why said access should be hidden from the rest of the community before any such rights are re-granted.

If any one disagrees or agrees with my actions please do speak your mind, I do not consider myself an unreasonable or unapproachable person and if I am overstepping my bounds then please tell me so. I really do feel this action is justified, right now, but I will listen to what the staff as a whole, has to say on the issue, whether it be in protest or in support.

[TheHolo.Net]

I have started a topic in the OOC forum:

http://www.swforums.net/forum/showthread.php?s=&threadid=10667

Which asks the members of the community for thier opinions on such a situation. I made sure not to be accusatory, nor give away the details of the situation. I just want some feedback on this.

[Q]

:: points to title ::

I fall under this category, too. Q is listed as a regular poster when he is in fact a mod. The original intention was to allow me to be logged in under a different name yet still see this forum.

[TheHolo.Net]

You sir are in fact the actual owner of this software and the one who made this all possible, who also has flat out stated thta he didn't want the power, nor do you intend to use it for any moderator purposes.

[Q]

I think its possible to grant me access to this forum without me actually having any powers, isn't it?

[TheHolo.Net]

I think it is, via use of access masks.

[Q]

Would you mind? :) I'm nosy and like tossing in my opinion every now and again.

[TheHolo.Net]

Okay, I set you back to a registered user and checked the access mask so you should still be able to access this forum. If you don't have access still, hopefully you'll contact me on AIM.

[Dalethria Mal Pannis]

okay this is not cool. DT, you stepped down as admin to be a mod? That would apply to being here. If there was a change the staff should know first then the other players.

I want to speak more on this but I got RL problems but I hope that this is settled soon >

[Champion of the Force]

<------------- points to own title

Just quickly whisked through this thread, so I won't comment on the situation, but I thought I'd point out that I also am going under a hidden guise (I still have admin powers). I have also removed my name from the active admin list in FAQ.

If someone isn't happy with this please say so here and I'll come back to it when I have more time later today.

EDIT:

In case I worded the above badly, I still have admin powers, but I'm posing as a normal poster.

I do have it mentioned in my profile that I'm a 'plain-clothes admin' however.

Get back to me on your thoughts on this please. I don't want anyone upset over this. :(

[Force Master Hunter]

And I wouldn't mind still having the convo when Nup and I discussed this, because it would be clear what the reason was and why. The reason was twofold - a) Nup did indicate he would like me to have that access - he stated he did not want it and b) I wished to look over vBB because we are in my office and going to impliment a froum for client support. It is likely to be vBB, which would mean I would need to be 100% familiar before the office went ahead.

He stated I was free to look over as much as I want, as long as I did not change anything. I requested in return that it not be noted I had that access as I told him I had no wish to resume a Admin role with roleplaying.

This has got ntohing to do with roleplaying, this I believe is colse to business only, an agreement between myself and the board owner for work reasons in the main. Or at least that is the way I see it.

[TheHolo.Net]

I'll edit this post with more comments on the entire situation tomorrow, after all the staff have had the opportunity to make their thoughts known here and more feedback has been given in my hypothetical poll.

[Force Master Hunter]

This has been, from where I am, you have acted well out of bounds - oin fact acted much I might have a year ago. I could understand you posting here, asking for a polite "Whats the situation?". I could understand a quiet tap on the shoulder and a "Look, do you mind if,....?". I have no problem placing forward what my postion is and why.

I strongly object to your actions, when my motives are business based and professional. As a Consultant, I ask to look at programs, apps, setups constantly and I even have admin access over several companies because of that. I have asked to look at forums in the past, contacted the forum owner, explained what I wanted and have been granted access, them removed by arangement. I strongly object to the thread you started and I would say that if I did the same thing, you would be howling in outrage.

I have already stated I wished to look over vBB and it';s functions on a professional basis. The appropriate thing you would have done is to ask, here why and I would have been more than happy to explain why. As it was made 100% clear to me I was not to touch any setups, but was welcome to examine at my lesiure if I abided by those terms, from the board owner. I state again, this was to examine vBB for purposes of setting up one at my own websites I administer. I repeat, NOT to resume any form of administrative role over roleplay.

Nupraqptor and I are good friends and this was the basis for me to look over what was owned by him. I have done this for other people, for example, I allowed access to my mail servers to Jeseth and Morgan Evanar. I've allowed access to GJO to Sith for specific reasons. I will do so again, when there is a reason, for professional or other appropriate reasons. When we originally spoke, the order of conversation was I asked if I could have admin to look, he stated yes I could, he was going to be asked anyway. I stated I had no wish to resume roleplay admin and that any admin rights were to be hidden as I had no wish to exercise. I was instructed not to touch any configs, but I was free to look as I wanted.

I have the perception the OOC thread as a veiled attack against me, when clearly, if you want an explaination and a justification, here it is and you would not be riling me up like you have.

Quite basically, if the situation was reversed, there would be absolutly no issue. Nupraptor had that right to act as he did and if you acted with those conditions, I basically wouldnt care. I have the perception you have blown this out into an issue that might never occured wtih slightly different actions and seem to me be making it a personal attack.

I repeat myself.... This is business and that is the main reason, nothing else. I will not tolerate accusations of any other motive, because simply there are none.

[TheHolo.Net]

I have not made any stringent “accusations” as you would attempt to label them. I understand your position of doing so on a professional basis, and I did consider that as part of my taking this action.

A month’s time has elapsed, providing you with plenty adequate opportunity to familiarize yourself with the inner workings of this software. I know in that same elapsed amount of time I have become very proficient with it. Frankly I am very uncomfortable with the posters of this board being deceived in matters of who holds what power around here.

I do understand and would most likely feel exactly as you do, if such a thing were to happen to me, in regards to having the topic posted out in the OOC forum, but claiming that is an attack against you is totally unfounded. If it had been an attack, I would not have made it out to be a hypothetical situation. I would not have held back any punches, and frankly, I think the result would be even less in your favor in that thread had I done it that way.

You have a right to your opinion and I am not going to try and belittle it or force it to be the same as mine, just as I am not going to and haven’t done with the staff of this forum, or even those that make this community what it is, the posters. I serve them, not myself, and from a moral standpoint, that is exactly what I am doing, having created that topic in the OOC forum.

Those who have responded are very upstanding members of this community, whether they agreed or disagreed with the hypothetical, two of the voters are staffers. The results thus far are bringing me to the conclusion that what Davewj has done in changing his user title is also not appropriate, but I want to give people time to voice their thoughts before any final determinations are made. This community is their community, that is what Nupraptor created it for, and that is what I serve, the “Community”.

I work my tail off for this place and try to do so with as clear a conscious as possible, and that’s what this entire situation is about. Being honest with people, the people that make this place what it is.

As I said, on more than one occasion; I am taking a wait and see approach from here on. Waiting to see what the majority of contributors to our forums think and feel.

[Q]

Just to toss in my $.02 real quick:

When we first opened the board, FMH asked me if he could be made an admin, but still listed as a Moderator. He wanted time to become familiar with it, and whatnot. I granted him admin powers on the faith that he has previously been an admin at SWFans and I hadn't.

I do admit that it seemed a bit "wrong" for me to have stepped down as a moderator yet still have powers under this account, which is why I had them revoked (I requested that I still have access here because I think should have the option to give my opinion on certain things pertaining to the way the board is run).

[Pierce Tondry]

I would've liked to have been informed of this when I became a Moderator. If people don't let me know what's going on, I can't help them if Murphy's Law kicks in and the **** suddenly hits the fan. I'm here to help, and keeping secrets from me does not make that job any easier to do.

I'm a bit taken by surprise that this is the case. I would've expected DT to advertise the fact that he is an Admin and not a Mod.

[Force Master Hunter]

I would've expected DT to advertise the fact that he is an Admin and not a Mod.

But if it is for business reasons, and power is never going to be exercised? The point is, a) Buisness reasons, because I am looking to impliment vBB at work and b) Absolutly no intention of exercising those eoptions - in fact told specifically, dont change or touch anything. In that case, dont see why anything should be said. It's an issue between me and the board owner, that has been the case in similar circumstances in the past elsewhere, or even other work based situations where I have admin access and the users are not aware.

[TheHolo.Net]

Originally posted by Q
When we first opened the board, FMH asked me if he could be made an admin, but still listed as a Moderator. He wanted time to become familiar with it, and whatnot. I granted him admin powers on the faith that he has previously been an admin at SWFans and I hadn't.

Compared to:

Start of ForceMastrHunter buffer: Tue Oct 09 02:27:12 2001
[18:18] ForceMastrHunter: Do you have two secs?
[18:18] *** Auto-response sent to ForceMastrHunter: I am away from my computer right now.
[18:25] Sith Master Ogre: I do
[18:25] ForceMastrHunter: k. Did someone removve admin access for FMH?
[18:25] Sith Master Ogre: yeah, i did
[18:26] Sith Master Ogre: did you still need it for something?
[18:26] ForceMastrHunter: ?
[18:27] Sith Master Ogre: If you'd like me to change your title back to Administrator, I'll give the access back to you
[18:28] ForceMastrHunter: Yes, I was suppposed to have admin
[18:28] Sith Master Ogre: I recall you stepping down as board administrator
[18:28] ForceMastrHunter: It just wasnt to be made obvious
[18:28] ForceMastrHunter: Yes, Nup asked me to have admin at the new board
[18:28] Sith Master Ogre: alright
[18:30] ForceMastrHunter: I agreed as long as it wasnt obvious I had admin. Which is why FMH's title read Moderator
[18:30] Sith Master Ogre: He told me that you asked him
[18:30] Sith Master Ogre: =/
[18:30] Sith Master Ogre: to be admin

[Pierce Tondry]

DT: It's been your nature in the past to make an announcement if you had any kind of status. That is why I would've expected you to say something. Obviously, I'm not correct in my assumption, but that doesn't really matter.

What does matter is that this get controlled before things get out of hand.

[Q]

:\

DT: Since you stepped down from the position of admin at the old SWFans, I assumed you didn't want it here, so I didn't offer. Pretty much everything else seems to be accurate. I just wanted to point that one thing out because I didn't really ask anyone to be an admin (although I did grant Dave admin powers right off the bat - He'll always be the original SWFans Admin in my eyes).

[Sanis Prent]

Hmm...well, I hope when I look at this, my wires aren't crossed, but it all seems to be a bit of mistaken intentions or whatnot.

Seems DT wanted Admin to check out VB's tools and whatnot, but at the same time, seems that none of us were informed of this. No harm done, but it would've been a good idea to leave a message for the rest of the staff, letting em know what was goin on. We're really the only ones who would've known at any rate, so I think we're entitled, whether this was done for business or not. Just considerate for one or both parties to inform the rest of the staff, I think.

As for the OOC thread, as its happened many times since we've come to VB, I think we were just looking at a new feature that VB had, and putting it to the public forum on whether we should use it on an official basis. Nothing accusatory, nothing finger-pointing, as nothing was even done wrong to begin with.

I understand FMH's wanting to check the admin features, and he's trustworthy enough to be given the power to look. However, he did step down as an admin, and thus, as he promised not to change anything, he's covered, just fine. But...the discussion in OOC is whether or not we want this as a real practice. Do we WANT secret admins? Not talkin about FMH, as that case appears to be special and temporary. In that scope of affairs, I think that secred admins and mods would do more harm than good. This is nothing pro/against FMH, as the scope of the argument is different.

[Champion of the Force]

Once again I appear to have arrived late in the discussion. :\

The only thing I'll say is that I've always been aware FMH was an admin here because I could clearly see his name listed as 'Admin' in the control panel.

However I assumed this was so he would have banning abilities (this was before Ogre enabled Mods to ban people).

As for my own title, I decided to changed it since everyone else was more than happy to change theirs, and since I'm not currently on the frontline in handling problems and the like and instead lurking in the background, I thought having the 'admin' part in my title was somewhat irrelevant.

As for the admin list, that's easy - I removed my name because it seemed inapporpriate for me to be admin 'of SWFans', whereas everyone else seems to be confined to their particualr sections. This seemed wrong, hence I removed my name completely from the list.

If anyone has an issue with any of this, please speak up and I'll fix up any grievances.

[TheHolo.Net]

My entire purpose for this topic and the one I started in the OOC forum were both, as Tondry helped me realize, which I did state in this thread as well, a matter of my conscience driving me to act.

I felt it immoral that posters were being deceived and I also felt that I had been lied to, see the examples that lead me to that conclusion, in my previous post. It was not my intention to defame anyone, or to cause any duress.

I was merely trying to clear my conscience and set things as I believed would make them right, but I also wanted to get the opinions of the rest of the staff and the community in doing so. I was very careful in how I worded all of my posts in the OOC forum, so that no finger pointing would occur, based on what I had said. I was just tying to see if I was the only one that thought in such a way.

I think the feeling that I was lied to is what prevailed in driving me to take the actions.

[Champion of the Force]

Well, it looks as though the issue has, on the whole, been settled.

Off the record, whilst I can understand Ogre's motivations behind it, I think posting an OOC topic regarding the issue was a tad much. By posting such a topic with a hypothetical situation, it merely started up the rumour mill and led people into thinking something sinister was up amongst the admin staff. I think it would have been best to have left it to be debated in here, and then have raised it with the posters after it had been settled, if it was deemed necessary.

Personally, I see no reason why FMH should have had 'Admin' listed under his name - he was not serving as admin in any capacity, but was instead merely browsing through the features vB has to offer. The titles we grant were are not just to display who has what control, but also what position one serves in the community. FMH serves as a moderator, not an administrator, and personally I think having the title of 'Admin' under his name would be misleading.

It was for this reason that I removed myself from the admin list as well as removed my own admin title, since I don't really function as 'admin' in the normal sense and once again IMHO it was merely misleading.

Not an intended slam or anything, just my suggestion in case something similar should develop in the future. :)

[TheHolo.Net]

Noted, thanks. :)