EU Bashing

[Force Master Hunter]

Take this seriously, or not so seriously....

But I dedicate this thread to the posting of what is hated and disliked in the Extended Universe

I declare myself the Chief Basher and I will defend the Star Wars Galaxy against the Dark Side that is the Extended Universe!

You know, I detest nmost of the EU and I especially loathe Callista. One of the worst caharcters I have ever seen in a book. I hated so much, I have decdicated my roleplaying life to destroying her. Typical, pathetic character of the EU and Hambly

More bashing to come.... I promise to flame one part of the EU at least once a week!

[Jedieb]

Hey, wouldn't role playing be considered fan EU? ;) But I digress

Some of the things that suck:
Calista
Clone Emperor (Not neccessary and a cheap and unoriginal plot device.)
Corran Horn lecturing Luke
Leia in a lightsaber duel with a HUTT?! (WTF?!)
Calista
Jacen Solo, the galaxy's biggest NJO whiner (Using the force is Bad! Wha Wha Wha...)
Lack of Vader (Where the hell is he!)
Killing Chewie (This was simply a cop out. It was decided that a character needed to be killed and he was chosen for an obvious reason; no one apparently knows how to write Wookie dialogue)
Chewie; the EU babysitter (Shouldn't that be 3PO's job?)
Kyp Durron (Look at me, I'm the most powerful Jedi in the galaxy! Whatever.)

Some of the things that kick butt:
Mara Jade
Thrawn (a legitimate and convincing villian)
Noghri
Luuke Skywalker (That fight at the end of Thrawn trilogy was awesome.)
Solo telling an Imp dirtbag to "kiss my wookie!"
Luke and Mara get married, battling a debilitating disease, and give birth to Ben Skywalker. Naming the kid Ben was obvious but damn it worked for me.)
SW Tales (They're funny, original, and they don't care about the SW EU timeline.)
SW Infinities ("What If" comics at their best.)
SW Manga Comics (A new look at a familiar galaxy. The ANH and ESB were especially good.)

That's enough for now. How's that for a start FMH?

[ReaperFett]

Kyp is great, Thrawn is an awfully written character, as is Corran. Jag Fel too.

Bounty Hunter Wars were the worst SW books

Thrawn Trilogy is VASTLY overrated

Jacen is bad in the NJO, but is cool in the YJK apparently


I dislike bashers

[Lord Exar Kun]

Well, though there are things I am not fond of in the EU, I will take the side of the supporting the EU.

First off, I have to admit, I have not read EVERY book to date, but I have read a vast majority.
The key series I have not read is the X-Wing Series and the Young Jedi series. Neither interested me enough to keep me reading them, though I have heard many things have happened over there.

Callista is one of the few things I did not like about EU. Her character never developed into anything worthy, in my opinion.

Killing Chewbacca was the single most daring step in EU I have seen to date and think it was awesome.
The entire key to the New jedi Order is to show that this does take place almost twenty years after the Holy Trilogy and that these characters are old.
The quote at the end of Vector Prime I think it was, or one of the Dark Ruin books by Han Solo was the best, where he went on to say that for the longest time he imagined an invisable bubble that shielded them all from death. Even the droids. They had all been in a hairy situation at one time or the other and finally he was slapped in the face with their vulnerability.

Another thing I like about the EU is the growth.
If we left the Holy Trilogy alone, fine, I can agree with that, but who hasn't thought of what could be the final three episodes of 7 through 9? I remember hearing way back in the early 90's that Lucas liked the Thrawn trilogy so much that if he had decided to make an ending trilogy to the series he might have used that series.

The only book I absolutely hated in EU was the Planet of Twilight, I think, where Leia spent most of the book drugged. Other than that, if read in succession, the books have all made good attempts at continuing the legend of Star Wars.

Heck, even Dark Horse and now Del Ray and Bantam took up the task or trying to write some prequel material of stuff that took place prior to the Holy Trilogy. That was some awesome stuff, including the Sith War, The Dark Lords of the Sith and Tales of the Jedi. I like the stories that don't include the core cast of characters and show us what else goes on in the Star Wars Universe and how others are affected by the actions of the core cast.
Crimson Empire (part one, not so much part two) does a really good job of showing one of the Elite Imperial Guardsmen dealing with not having a job after the Emperor is killed and what the Guardsmen have gone on to do. Besides, anyone who tells me they were not interested in who those guys were when they saw Return of the Jedi is blowing smoke out the ass. Those guys were too awesome, just standing there with their staffs. I thought that was a great idea to tell their story.

Life without Vader is something to adjust to, but there is really no way around it.
I also like watching the growth of Luke Skywalker. He has become a major league player in EU, whereas the last we saw him in RotJ, he was simply the return of the Jedi. It is awesome to see where that has taken him and the universe.

Mara Jade and Talon Karrde are also great characters that were added to the Star Wars Universe and always intersting to see what they are up to next.

Kyp Durron, without a Darth Vader or any Sith popping up is the anti-thesis to Luke Skywalker. Luke Skywlker is the picture perfect example of a Jedi but Kyp is the Jedi who always gets real close to dancing with the DarkSide.
Kyp Durron is nothing but a younger Luke Skywalker and Luke has taken on the role of Yoda. Adventure? Excitement? A Jedi craves NOT these things.
He is too old to train, too reckless.

Again, I already stated I have not read every book in the EU, but I am going to run the defense and tyr my best to support it.

Hell, besides, without the EU, Exar Kun would not even be here....LOL LOL LOL

[ReaperFett]

Kun, did you manage to get to Allstons books?

[Jedieb]

The Young Jedi Knights series was pretty solid IMO. I liked the characters. For novels that were intended for 4th-6th graders, they were fairly well written. I enjoyed characters like Tenal Kal. She's got a lot of potential and was always set up as a possible romantic interest for Jacen. And Zek was Jaina's partner in that series. The kids novels that centered around Anakin were babyish and I only read the first couple. It was interesting to see characters like Tahiri and Ikrit pop up in the NJO. To see cartoonish and simple characters fleshed out in the adult EU was a bit disconcerting, but I think they pulled it off.

About the only EU I haven't read were the last few novels in the X-Wing/Wraith series and the bounty hunter trilogy. I don't know if I'll ever get to those. You know what I miss? The anthologies that KJA put together. Some of them were silly, but most of them were pretty entertaining.

[Champion of the Force]

Dude, it's Expanded Universe. E - X - P - A - N - D - E - D.

Sorry, but if you're going to declare yourself the chief EU basher of this board, you've got to get the title right. :)

[Lord Exar Kun]

ReaperFett,
That name is not familiar, but I must also admit that other than Anderson, Zahn and Keyes, I normally dont remeber an authors name.
The fellow who wrote I, Jedi and the Dark Ruin mini-series in NJO was also really good.

Which set did Allstons write?
With references I will check out certain books, but again, if the first book or two dont interest me, the series is done in my opinion, which I admit is close-minded on my part, but I read a lot.
When I say alot, I normally read close to two or maybe three books a week, depending on size.

I spend the vast majority of my free time reading plus I am a bordeline insomniac, so I get to spend time in the wee hours of the night reading also.

Example: the book Vector Prime I read in about nine hours if you piece together the time brackets. I think the smaller books like Dark Ruin and Agents of Chaos took me about five hours, maybe six hours to read.

[ReaperFett]

Allston wrote the X-Wing novels Wraith Squadron, Iron Fist, Solo Command and the best book ever, Starfighters of Adumar High level of humour, and the best place for Janson :)

He also makes an X-Wing novel that doesnt follow one or two members. He's signed up for a NJO Duology. The world cheers :)

[Tujk]

Oooh. What's bad?

The X-Wing Books
Jedi Academy Trilogy
Anything else that KJA has written that involves star wars.

I like the NJO books, they're actually moving back to the right feel for Star Wars. focus on all the characters and the story rather than an individual. Yes I know that a few of the novels are bad for doing that (particuarly conquest and Balance point), but on the whole, they're moving in the right direction, provideing with a non repeative read.

[ReaperFett]

KJA is now the SW EU gatekeeper, after having to make the mountain known as the Essential Chronology, along with Dan Wallace. They da men :)


tujk, why dont you like the X-Wing series?

[Mhalbrecht Dalarsco]

NJO does not count as EU.
I treat it as SW Tales, as in having no Time Line impact.
Chewie is alive, Jacen is cool, and NJO is but typed on tiolet paper!:rant

[Seth Darkserpent]

NJO is very thoughtful and a great series. It shows that characters are not immortal and can die. Darth Vader died, Emperor died, Tarkin died. Sadly, Chewbacca had to go. Jacen was a whiny little brat for a reason, it's called growing up. He was having trouble figuring out which path he would choose.

The Yuuzhan Vong are by far the most evil, twisted demented creatures ever introduced to Star Wars. Whether you like it or not, NJO is part of Star Wars, and part of the official time line. If you read on in the series, you'd know Jacen has matured a bit, after Balance Point. He isn't a brat anymore. If you even BOTHERED to read the series, rather steal someone else's opinion and try to come off like you're looking smart.

But you know what the best thing about it is? Just because YOU don't like it, doesn't mean it doesn't count in the true Star Wars universe. I suppose you couldn't call yourself a true fan, since you only want to believe what you like :)

And hey, I hate a bunch of things from EU too. I didn't like it when Chewbacca died, but it had to happen. It progressed the stories. BTW, a little bit of info for you. LUCAS AGREED TO CHEWBACCA'S DEATH. I also didn't like Children of the Jedi. But I still count these tales as part of the Star Wars universe.

:)

[ReaperFett]

Chewie is DEAD! DEAD DEAD DEAD

[Lord Exar Kun]

I have to say this much about Jacen Solo and the way he is being written: It pisses me off.

I understand his apprehensivess about using the Force and I really liked his interaction with Corran Horn. I felt that was going to be a turning point for him, but instead put him into a deeper shell where his abilities were.
Then, we get our big chance, his mother is being hurt by the Yuuzahn Vong and he snaps out of his stupor in Balance Point, and I am getting ready for some good old-fashioned ass-kicking, but after a rather poorly written fight and an even more anti-climatic build-up of Jacen's decision to let loose with his powers, in the next book, he is back to normal, hemming and hawing about what he should do.

Either get this guy to do something, or drop him off somewhere to figure out his life and QUIT WRITING ABOUT HIM.

[Jedieb]

One of the things that has bugged me about Jacen is that his character is NOTHING like it was in the Young Jedi Knights series. Jaina bears little resemblance as well. The NJO writers have taken them and reshaped them. Yes they're older, but they're not the same characters the once were. But that's a minor quibble. The fact is, many people are tired of Jacen's whining. Jaina is the same age and you don't half the complaining and whimpering. He's "just a teen", isn't an excuse for making him annoying.

As for Chewie's death, I'll repeat myself. Chewie was the result of a formulaic decision that SOMEONE had to be killed off. And when the powers that be chose a character they took the cheap and easy way. If they'd had any guts they would have gone after one of the major characters, the kids, or even the droids. No, they chose one of the characters that never produced any typed dialogue. It was a decision of convenience.

As for Chewie's death being part of the SW universe, it is, but it's part of the SW EXPANDED universe. A universe Lucas has little to do with and can disregard at any time in the films. Lucas isn't going to change or write a scene becuase it contradicts with pg. 145 of I, Jedi. Lucas has always been a shrewd businessman. He saw the revenue Paramount was generating with it's Star Trek novels and he knew he could do just as well with his universe. It pleases the fans who want more and fills his coffers with even more money. But it's an area of SW he's had little to do with. He's got someone else surpervising it while he works on the SW universe he really cares about, the films/canon.

I like the EU, but I take what I want from it. I've got no problem with someone who picks and chooses what they want to take from the expanded universe. You want to believe that the entire fate of the galaxy rested on the Stormtrooper that said; "Look sir, droids!" Be my guess, I'll stick with the floppy haired Jedi wanabee, Smuggler, Old Wizard, Walking Carpet, and two Droids.

One more thing, let's say 15 years from now Lucas gets a second wind and decides he finally wants to tell the story of Luke rebuilding the Jedi with another trilogy. You can bet he will disregard just about everything the EU has given us.

[ReaperFett]

I like Jaina in NJO

[Jedieb]

I also like Jaina in the NJO. In the Young Jedi Kningts series she was a tomboyish grease monkey. I like the fact that they've made her aggressive and a pilot. Having her part of Rogue Squadron feels right. Turning the YJK animal lover, jokester Jacen into a philosopher feels .... blah!:x

[Grand Admiral Thrawn]

Perhaps they're making everyone hate Jacen, so if they plan to kill him off, everyone will agree and support it :)

[Jedieb]

Originally posted by Grand Admiral Thrawn
Perhaps they're making everyone hate Jacen, so if they plan to kill him off, everyone will agree and support it :)
You've figured out their plan GAT! Only a blue skinned evil genius could see through such an elaborate machination. Jacen will soon die!:crack

[Grand Admiral Thrawn]

All I had to do was stare at the cover of SbS and study it :):p

[Mhalbrecht Dalarsco]

The Vong were the only good part.
And Jaina in Rogue Squadron.
But they shouldn't have killed chewie.
Sure, he didn't have dialogue, but his described body language spoke.
That was bad, but making Jacen a crybaby was worse.

[Hart]

I must say I've always seen myself as an avid EU basher. Never liked one EU character or one EU author. That's right, I don't even like the Zahn trilogy. Dislike all of them with a passion. Any character that isn't from the original trilogy should just die.

[Jedieb]

There's nothing you like? Nothing? Not even Skippy the Jedi Droid? Everybody loves Skippy the Jedi Droid!!!!!:D

[Seth Darkserpent]

Vuffi Raa was much cooler!

[Marcus Telcontar]

Well, I have not seen anything recently that suggests the EU is going to get better. Fact, it's seeming like it's getting worse.

[Hart]

I have to admit I'm not familiar with Skippy, the Jedi Droid :)

[Jedieb]

Skippy, The Jedi Droid was in Star Wars Tales issue 1 or 2 I believe. He's the the red R5 we all know and love. He purposely blew out his motivator so that Uncle Owen would buy R2. The Force made him do it. Truly, the turning point of the Star Wars universe.:crack

[Hart]

But since Skippy was in EpIV, that would mean he's not an EU character, right :) But that story line is great, I must admit

[ReaperFett]

Well, I have not seen anything recently that suggests the EU is going to get better. Fact, it's seeming like it's getting worse.

You read the entire NJO so far then?

[Marcus Telcontar]

It's hard to read NJO after you wiped your butt and then flushed the pages. Cause that's all it's worth. If I wanted to read Star Trek, I would.

[ReaperFett]

That didnt answer my question :)

[Hart]

Hart facts:

I hate Mara Jade
I hate Corran Horn
I hate Kyp
I hate the Vong
I love Chewie

Thus, like Marcus, how can I POSSIBLY enjoy an NJO book AT ALL?!

[ReaperFett]

I dislike Corran, I loved X-Wings 1-4(he was only then in 8, which was bad)

the AOC duology was great, as it was two books mainly on Han and Droma(a Ryn)

And you dont know until youve tried.

A journalist over here was sued by David Soul(Starsky & Hutch) recently, for slating his play, despite not seeing it. What is different in what you do?

[Hart]

I read the first two NJO novels. What more must I do to form an opinion? Should I actually spend (waste) my own money to BUY more junk like that just to say that I've read the whole crappy series and can give my criticisms on them scene by scene, book by book?

[ReaperFett]

because VP was a very divided book for people, and the DT duology was dire :)

[Jedieb]

I don't think Hart has to keep reading a storyline he hates to judge it. That's just torture. If the first two books killed it for him, then he really doesn't need to keep reading it to see if it's picked up. To keep up all he has to do is just find some site that posts reviews or a quick synopsis and he's up to date. I'm just curious Hart, will you pick up the EU again once this storyline runs its course?

[ReaperFett]

JediEb, Im only arguing against those who say "NJO is rubbish" without reading all. "I dont like the NJO" is fine. Its like saying "The prequel SW films are all rubbish".



To me, its like saying you dont like Pie because of the packaging

[Marcus Telcontar]

If I read one more thing about the all God Moding Vong, I will throw up. They have no place in the SW Galaxy, none at all. They directly contradict the statements made about the Force in the movies, totally.

I refuse to read any more. I cant stand them any more.

[Hart]

Hmm Jedieb, that's a tough one. I'd say what would re-spark my interest the most would be to set a parallel Star Wars Universe that didn't have anything to do with the Vong or Kyp. I wouldn't be interested on seeing how things turned out after the Vong, because it would be impossible to simply move pass that and never refer to that period again. I'd just like to see the main guys like Luke, Wedge, Han, CHEWIE, Lando, Leia, etc, develop further within the realities only of the galaxy George Lucas created.

I am very eager to read up on the novels being written placed between EpI and EpIV though. Those should all be a blast.

[ReaperFett]

Hart, theres one about in April, the Approaching Storm. Set RIGHT before AOTC.



They directly contradict the statements made about the Force in the movies, totally

Like Zahn and his pets that negate something that lives inside you? :)

Cant penetrate armour with saber? Likes Zahns Cortosis

Cant sense in the force? Like Zahns Ysalmiri.

:)

[Marcus Telcontar]

1) Who said it negated? It Distrupts the Force. While the Yong just dont exist totally nor have ANY effect. Hmmm, quite a difference there.

2) Actually there is a totally logical explaination if you want to listen for two secs. Cortoris distrupts the magnetics and field effects that allow the sabre to work and shuts the sabre down as the field is broken down. While the sabre is active, it still cuts. And that explaination is there in The Hand of Thrawn duology in part. Very plausible. Unlike the BS armour of the Vong. That's just ssupposed to be tough enough to survive sabre blow. Like crap, considering a sabre is a plasma 'bottle' that works at several thousands of thousands of degrees.

3) See above.

[ReaperFett]

While the Yong just dont exist totally nor have ANY effect
Cant use the force in a Ysalmiri. Cant use the force on a Vong. Note that they arent immune, lightning still kills them, rocks thrown still hurts them. I think theyre exactly the same



Actually there is a totally logical explaination if you want to listen for two secs
This from the person who blamed KJA for the "Sith God" after I said Lucas told him to do that and helped with the backstory and history and all. Pot, kettle, black.




Unlike the BS armour of the Vong. That's just ssupposed to be tough enough to survive sabre blow
Well actually, if youd read them, youd notice that they arent sure about much with the Vong. Recently they have used (SBS spoilers) Vornskyr to create Jedi Hunters, known as Voxyn. Maybe they did that. We are 2/5 through the series. Was everything explained 2/5 in TTT? Not a chance, but people forget that. Now, if you were listening, thats perfectly logical too ;)

[Marcus Telcontar]

1) THEY ARE NOT THE SAME, but I'm not going to bother explaining because your clearly not going to listen, so I'm not goign to waste my breath

2) Which ever way look look at it, Exar Kun is still a Sith God. Full stop. And just a load of BS as well and it doesnt matter what the original source. KJA went God complex writing Kun. Completely different in statue from Cortoris, yes?

3) WHAT was your point your trying to make here? I was talking about something that is a known, not an unknown as an example of why the Vong are a nonsense

[Jedieb]

Ah, where to begin...

Reap, I really think that a fan who read a plot summary that tells him Chewie dies fighting an enemy that's blind to the Force has every right to call the NJO "rubbish." Why should they have to read hundreds of pages of a battle against an enemy whose very existance they have trouble accepting?


Actually there is a totally logical explaination if you want to listen for two secs.

That's the thing about the EU. You could throw in any ill conceived plot device or character and with enough work you could explain it away.

Q: The Jedi have been around for thousands of years, but Luke couldn't find stores of information on them after the fall of the Empire? I mean, even Padme knows they Jedi are forbidden to love. But Luke let's every Jedi under the sun get married. He even gets married himself!
A: Oh, the Emperor was really thorough. And when Padme became a Senator she was given the secret Republic Senator handbook. The Jedi marriage rules were on page 3,431. Palpatine had all of those burned.

Q: Lizards from planet so and so can project Force bubbles. Get a forest full of them and a Jedi is blind to the Force. Why?
A: Because they grew up around these ugly critters that use the Force to hunt.

Q: Why aren't the Jedi taking advantage of the Sun Crusher?
A: Oh, because the Vong have special plasma fleas that can eat through all that quantum armor.

Q: Why did Chewie die?
A: So that the main SW characters could deal with anguish of losing someone they loved and to legitimize the Vong as a real threat.
Q: Really? It wasn't because EU authors never wrote Wookie dialogue and made Chewie into a 7 foot baby sitter?
A: NO!!!!!!!!!!

The EU is full of stuff that really makes no sense. It's full of stuff that you know Lucas would NEVER put in subsequent SW movies if he felt like making them. I read it because most of it isn't half bad and I like reading books with SW on the cover. But I keep it in a SEPARATE place. The truth is, the general movie going public is blissfully IGNORANT of Kyp, Corran, and Chewie's death. The majority of SW fans don't even read the EU.

If you love the EU and think that everything is golden and really is as real as Han shooting Greedo first then good for you. Hey, wait a minute, Greedo shot first. If GL can disregard his OWN work 20 years after the fact then what do you think he'd do 20 years from now if he decided to crank out another trilogy?

:cool

[ReaperFett]

Q: Why aren't the Jedi taking advantage of the Sun Crusher?
Big black hole it fell in? :)



1) THEY ARE NOT THE SAME, but I'm not going to bother explaining because your clearly not going to listen, so I'm not goign to waste my breath
Oh, and you're listening 100% to what I say? You'll never give this up because you're 100% anti-NJO.



2) Which ever way look look at it, Exar Kun is still a Sith God. Full stop. And just a load of BS as well and it doesnt matter what the original source. KJA went God complex writing Kun. Completely different in statue from Cortoris, yes?
Yes, but a Sith God which Lucas wanted :)

And the Cortosis remark was simply because you said I should listen, but you ignored the fact Lucas wanted the SL. Had he been a DJ as planned, he wouldnt be so powerful. He only had power due to the Massassi temples, used in times gone by to channel the force.



3) WHAT was your point your trying to make here? I was talking about something that is a known, not an unknown as an example of why the Vong are a nonsense
My point is that it is unknown due to the series not being done yet. Was Cortosis fully explained within seconds of use?





Reap, I really think that a fan who read a plot summary that tells him Chewie dies fighting an enemy that's blind to the Force has every right to call the NJO "rubbish." Why should they have to read hundreds of pages of a battle against an enemy whose very existance they have trouble accepting?
He died witha rock on his head, not Vong :)

And because that isnt all the NJO is. There's the Jedi situation. Jacen and the force. The NR itself. All things missed.

Okay then, lets use your idea.

"Some small person has to destroy a ring and walks long distances to do so"

I just made FOTR sound rubbish. Easy, isnt it?

[Marcus Telcontar]

Was Cortosis fully explained within seconds of use?


Yes it was.



And Yes I listen to what you say. I just dont agree with it.

[ReaperFett]

Then that is rubbish development, IMO. I love to read something, and think "What IS that?" or "How'd he do that?". Later, you see, and you think to yourself "Ahhhhh". Bit like how this will be

[Jedieb]

He died witha rock on his head, not Vong

Who dropped the rock on him? :)


Big black hole it fell in?

Got it, Jedi can only pull Sun Crushers out of gas giants, not black holes. :)
I was under the impression the Sun Crusher ended up at the Jedi Academy in the Young Jedi Knights series. But I guess I'm just imagining that.

[ReaperFett]

Who dropped the rock on him?
Gravity :)



And the Crusher wasnt seen after the JAT, as nothing survives a black hole