Fleet Rules revision

[Force Master Hunter]

:: Notices everyone runs away in fright::

Ummm... guys...... guys........

Come BBAAAAAACCCCCCKKKKK!!!!!



---


Gah, I'm not thinking right, but this here be a thread for fleet rules discussion, or guidelines.

The purpose of this is a sane discussion and ideas for fleets and their running of. One of the glaring holes we do have is the fact there are no resource limitings. This will seek to redress that, there are a few good suggestions from Master Yoghurt that bares looking at I will be posting.


Swfans.net Fleet Rules-5/15/2001

Shipyards

All shipyards are 40km

Shipyards build 250 meters / day
Example: .25 KM x 4 days = 1 KM.

Number of yards per faction:

New Rep: 5
Greater Jedi Order: 1
NR Special Forces - To be decided

Galactic Empire: 4
Imperial Intelligence Headquarters: 1
Sovereign Imperial Navy: 3

The Sith Empire: 4
The Sith Order: 3
Other Groups: 2 -- Given at least 4 members.

These shipyards are representative of a group's total shipbuilding capacity. They are non-transferable. Details like planet location and number of yards in orbit is just for story material and do not impact these OOC rules. In addition, every group is allowed one civilian-run 40km shipyard which they can use to sell starships to potential customers. It is illegal to use these customer shipyards for the military gain of your group.

Special Projects / New Technology

No superlaser-wielding ships allowed (i.e. NSD's ASD's etc. are out). If you wish to have a starship with an onboard superlaser, you must RP it, and there will be a 90 day construction period. World Devastators require an RP, and take 90 days for 3 units. No ships bigger than an SSD unless you RP it and wait 90 days. Death Stars take 90 days and you must RP it. Galaxy Guns take 90 days, and you must RP it. Each 90-day project uses 1 shipyard for those 90 days, so you cannot use it that 1 shipyard to build anything else during that time.

All ships under 2000m (I assume the exception to this is SSDs-DV) that are comperable to those that already exist are legally allowed to be developed without having an RP thread. Simply announce the specs to SWFans for review and you should be okay. Just as the major projects listed above, any innovative or radical tech is subject to the scrutiny and approval or disapproval of your fellow fleet RPers, group leaders, and moderators.

Battle Rules

You must allow your enemy 36 hours to reply to your posts.

You must first weaken a ships shields/hull over 4 posts before being able to destroy it.

You can not destroy a starfighter unless agreed by both parties whether it is a dogfight or run against a capital ship. You are allowed to disable over 2 posts if the owner of the starfighter does not respond to save it.

* Note if a fighter is a fighter pilot character it may not be destroyed but only disabled unless both parties agree on the kill.

Other

You can never destroy a planet.

Use your own judgment when role playing. These rules are not set in stone nor are meant to stifle your creative freedom.

Have fun. Winning isn't everything

Downsizing

You must downsize your navy 60%. In order to do this, multiply each type of ship owned by your group by .4. You must do this for all ship types, and then submit it to Swfans.net for approval.

EXAMPLE:
Before Downsizing:
18 ISDs
31 VSDs

After Downsizing:
7 ISDs
12 VSDs

ROUND DOWN!

All ships larger than 2,000m will no longer exist. However, for every 10 downsized 1,400-2,000m starships in your group's possession, you will be given an SSD. All SSDs are 12.8km. Exceptions to this rule will be made for those who profess to have a special case in order to maintain fairness.


Misc:

1) The only existing tech that will be scrapped are the ships which are over 2km, and unlicensed SSDs. The exception is if you built a special project for 90 days, and did so after 1/1/01, like the Titan SD. As for ships which are under 2km, you can use them so long as they aren't too radical, and are realistic, like just advanced or modified forms of existing SW ships.

2) A 10km station should take about 5 weeks to produce using one yard. A 2km station, one week. However, if you believe that these are not actual starships and therefore subject to being built by construction yards rather than shipyards, you can use the construction yards to construct them, within reason, and it won't come out of your shipyards. Too, small ships which are 5 meters and under (tugs, trade federation droid fighters) may be constructed at construction yards rather than shipyards, for they are of negligable size and not worth the worry of having to categorize and arrange craft of their meager size, so long as they are not of radical design. Anything which fits into this category of 5 meters and under should be fodder-like.

3) The 3 shipyards means you have 3 40km shipyards. You can put them wherever you'd like, and it takes 10 days to move a shipyard. During those 10 days, nothing may be constructed by the shipyard that is being moved. You can put all 3 of them at one planet, or you can spread them out.


NRSF is noted as Undecided - they are allowed two yards under the rules, but it could be seen as being unfair and thence in discussion now.

Oh yes - Fleeting has to also comply with the Common Sense and Fair Paly guidelines. Thence, what may be legal, may be lunatic and hence disallowed

[Force Master Hunter]

Yog is suggesting some good stuff


Master Yoghurt: Damned, that fleet he is planning is even bigger than TSE fleet.
Auto response from ForceMastrHunter: I am away from my computer right now.

ForceMastrHunter: Yes, that's why he wont get it
Master Yoghurt: All those SSD's, lol.
Master Yoghurt: Care to see something else surreal? Take a look. Some of these reminds me of Star Trek.
ForceMastrHunter: Christ, we have some morons with fleets
Master Yoghurt: Indeed. Not just the fact that every Joe claims to have a fleet, but there is a severe lack of interest of making it realistic, or even within the parameters of the SW universe. It is now popular to build phantom ships with all kinds of fancy technology which is supposed to make them allmost invulnerable. And I mean every ship.
ForceMastrHunter: How true
Master Yoghurt: Another thing that bothered ne the other day, there seems to be no rules or guidelines for how fast you can build in construction yards. For example, how many droids, mines, planetary cannons, gun emplacments etc can you build in one day. So, what we have are a some that builds as fast they think they can without being protested upon. It is very confusing. I have seen figures from 1000 mines to 100,000 mines per day. Here is an example of one side of the spectrum. The troubling thing is, I would like to build some defenses myself, but the varying procedures confuses me.
ForceMastrHunter: Interesting point. I dont have an answer.
Master Yoghurt: I like to think your production capacity should be parallel to the number of planets you own. The reason is, if a group with only one planet has the same production capacity of a major goverment like the NR, then they can build, say 10,000 mines per day and put it around their planet, but the NR would have to spread all those out over 34 planets. Probably, a set number of what you can produce of defenses for each planet would work better. For example, every planet could produce 10,000 mines, 100 droids, 60 tanks etc per day for that planets defense. Just tossing some numbers into the air for example.
Master Yoghurt: Or perhaps you could split into one tenth if it is too fast. It is difficult to see what would be a realistic building speed.
ForceMastrHunter: I'll be pushing this to the admins


-------

Master Yoghurt: Here is an example of a construction thread I was just about to post, but I did not because some people might ask where I get the rules for that, and I dont think just building to my imagination is a very good example. Anyway, here was what I was going to post:
Master Yoghurt: Each planet under NR protection (34 counting the moons of Yavin nr IV, VIII and XIII), will be upgraded with the following mine and gun emplacements grids (in addition to mine layers allready present).

5,000 Aida Sensors System Type B Homing Mines - HM/2
5,000 Arakyd Industries Mines Type C (Mn/T3)
30,000 Arakyd Industries Type B Proximity Mines - PM/2

Defensive upgrade for the planets of Kuat, Mon Calamari and the Yavin system; each of the 3 will have the following in addition:

10,000 Merr-Sonn Defender Ion Mines

Note: Mines are built in grids by 250 square meter (250 x 250) per day in a construction yard (1 yard per planet), counting an average diameter footprint of 1 meter each, standing in upright position.

Our construction yard engineers on all planets will be occupied for this purpose in 10 days.

Construction starts: 30 of september
Construction ends: 9th of october

Construction takes place in 2 stages of 5 days.
ForceMastrHunter: Well actually, it looks fine to me
Master Yoghurt: I figured it is better some sort of standard is set first. :-)
ForceMastrHunter: How about oy set the standard?

[Jehova Eaven]

::sigh....:: more rules to remember...... such a pain....

[Jedah Lynch]

More morons with ships trying to get power or outdo the other guy= more rules = more bickering = more whining = less fun.

No wonder people hate fleets and it has a bad rep:)

Hell if it wasnt for the fact most people would come in and rip the place apart would rather have less a fleet presence at TSE. As far as concerned with the large amount of fleets going around or the fact every piss ant group is trying to make the next biggest and leanest fleet its caused a good deal of stagnet activity.

The current mentality seems to be if you dont have a fleet your screwd. Sadly enough thats partly true. How many new groups come in and try to make a fleet nowadays or take over planet after planet so they can build more?

As it is only a small percentage of the posters even have any fleet knowledge or experience. Some can do decent but are just taken apart by those who know such things better. It gives value to some but for the rest its a deterrent almost.

As much as do enjoy seeming those who can do fleet Rps like Sums, Yog, Ogre and Sanis(under which ever name he decides to use) do believe Fleet Rping has outgrown or become too important in a way that it makes most people simply unable to contribute in.

Say if its silly if you will, but few can do much for Fleet Rps, only a handfull in any group. And overall believe it to be a problem that has contributed to some decline on the boards due to the emphasis placed on the fleets nowadays.

Some good Rps out there being done without feets in them, but there is only one purpose for a fleet existing half the time. And its hardly to play nice or fair with each other.

Thats pretty much it. *puts on flame suit*

[Sanis Prent]

I try to realize limitations of a smaller faction...if there are any complaints about how I do this, please let me know.

[Lilaena De'Ville]

I thought a group had to have FIVE separate members to be considered a group under the current rules. See Ogre's thread about members and groups in this forum. So groups with FIVE members get two shipyards.

And TBH doesn't have a fleet. They do fine.

[General Tohmahawk]

Yes, it is five.... I must have made a typo. :MNEH


I'm all for no rules and just have common sense and fairplay only.

Except..... who is going to run with that? How can it be enforced in this instance? I would love nothing better than to deny fleets to the idiots, as i said in the locked admin forum, but it cant really be done.

Which, personally, is why I am flat out going for negotiation and agreement. It's noted there will be a fleet attack on Kashyyk, but the how and what and with how much is being revealed, stated to some of the TSO leaders. That to me seems to work much better, when I get around to getting that attack under way.

In all the fleeting BS, Common Sense, Fair Play, Negotiation and Agreement is sorely lacking. Might help if there was more.

/me gets off soap box

[Admiral Lebron]

I use fair play. It's name is Lounge Lizard. Well more or less.

[Mhalbrecht Dalarsco]

How long does it take to actualy build the shipyard?
That should be added.

[Jehova Eaven]

40 days! You've asked before!

[Lord Gue]

Well, still being an advocate for the old rules that me, bane, and thrawn made. I say we just stick to one set and go with it else every new leader will come along, scrutinize the rules and come up with something new or updated and we start this all over again.

[Jyener Celchu]

There's one thing I don't understand. Why are shipyards so huge?

-You'd need to build 40 one-thousand meter ships at once to take up all the space in a 40,000 meter shipyard.

-Shipyards can only build 250 meters a day, so all that extra space is useless.

Smaller shipyards would be more reasonable in lots of ways. Say each major group gets 10 shipyards that are 1500 meters each. They have the choice to place them at any planet they own, in any combination. This leaves room for more stradegy in placement and where you're major production sites are going to be. If they put 4 shipyards at one planet, they can produce up to 6000 meters at one time.

Not only reasonable, but it could be more realistic. If you can only build 6000 meters(250 meters a day) before the shipyards are empty, then you'd have to split up the construction of larger ships like SSDs, causing a longer time to build them depending on how many yards you have a planet.

There's probably better numbers to use here, I'm just giving examples. Maybe this will help in Construction Yard rules too.

[Champion of the Force]

Except..... who is going to run with that? How can it be enforced in this instance? I would love nothing better than to deny fleets to the idiots, as i said in the locked admin forum, but it cant really be done.
Perhaps you should bump up the group requirement? Maybe 10 posters instead of 5?

Then again, there may be fair dinkum groups out there who will seriously be affected by such a change, so I don't know. :\

[Force Master Hunter]

Okay......

Here is a solution to potential cheating in construction yards.

The proposal is to host the Yards forums for groups at SWFans, so that construction can be monitored and there can be no room for cheating and rule bending.

Once a gorup is official and wants to have a fleet, a sub forum in the Storytelling forum is created. There is one subforum for each group. All fleets are to be contructed in that subforrum to be recognised. A (hopefully independant) moderator over those particular subforums is appointed, to monitor and audit construction.

Special technology must also be produced in there, however details do not have to be given, only design and build times, plus project name. The 90 day rules for huge projects do not change. It's understood groups dont like their special tech to be on display, thence only design and build time required.

This may make some players uncomfortable, but I would state that a degree of openness is much more desireable than the poisionous atmosphere when accusations are flung about. I believe this will stop such bad blood, as all construction must be done openly and there will less opportunity to cheat.

[Admiral Lebron]

I can agree to that.

[Keerrourri Feessaarro]

I've seen this implemented elsewhere...and I like this idea.

[Ogre Mal Pannis]

I fully support this idea and have discussed it merits and points with FMH already.

There will be a single subforum within the Roleplaying one labeled shipyards, and groups that are approved as official ones with yards, including those already established will have subforums with the shipyard one for their own construction and development.

As FMH mentioned, new tech will only require a project name and start and completion dates, further details regarding the ins and outs of what the project entails can still be posted within secured forums at the respective group’s boards so that their technology is not exploited by OOC knowledge.

FMH and I are already in negotiations as to who the specific moderator will be, and as he mentioned our candidate will be chosen on their stance of independence, objectivity, and sense of fairlplay.

[Admiral Lebron]

Yay. Now I can't cheat ignorantly! err..

[Force Master Hunter]

The forums will be up for viewing shortly.

On another issue, the NRSF.

The NRSF is an independant group, but there could be a perception that the yards it is allowed is bypassing the fleet guidelines and might encourage group splintering for the purpose of gaining more yards. To prevent this, the NRSF will be waiving it right under the rules for the two yards + customer. Instead, NRSF will be seeking to use one existing NR yard for it's own exclusive use, plus develop a single structure to be used solely for mainenance / R&D / Ground force production and training. I believe that is fair and sets a good precedent.

[TheHolo.Net]

It has been decided that the shipyard subforums will reside in the Storytelling forum, as the topics there will be closed ones for the respective groups only. All 90 day RP construction threads will fall under the previous rules of having to be done openly in the Roleplaying forum, in an open thread.

[Ryu Warusa]

What about the SSD that TVO is building, theres no way I'm starting that construction time over again.

[TheHolo.Net]

We are putting together a proposal that will include some details about what shall be done with all current and pending threads. Nothing will be lost or required to be restarted due to this new policy. Updates and more information will be forthcoming.

[Force Master Hunter]

a) No established and legal work is discarded. All legal ships are still that, legal.

b) An SSD?!?!? You know how much that defies belief a small group could ever afford to have one or to have the manpower, or resources, or cold credits?!?! I would only think major groups, with at least a good handful of planets could possibly do that The money required is staggering just to build it. And to keep the thing running...... and supply logistics.... you have to feed all the crewers.

Yes it's legal. But is it possible?

[Sumor Rayial]

Just a question.

When you say,

only design and build time required.

do you just mean like the length and the build time? Cause much of the R&D that we have done at TSE I don't care about in terms of the length but the weapons that we have developed along side those ships.

[TheHolo.Net]

Length, start date, completion date, and a name/designation for the project are all that research type threads will require. If there are ever any questions regarding new tech, a Mod or Admin can review the coresponding topic and or topics in your respective secrured forums to make certian that all is in order. Thus design names can be used to match up the corresponding topics and you do not have to make your secret designs public knowledge.

[Force Master Hunter]

First draft of new rules is now availible for admins / moderators. Please comment and if acceptible, I'll post here for more comment.

[Cirrsseeto Quez]

Looks generally pretty good. The production run idea is a welcome change of pace...but it needs to be worked on more to be accomodating to vast types of ships that can be built.

Other than that, seems fair and appropriate.

[TheHolo.Net]

The new moderators that were mentioned before have been decided on and contacted regarding this new venture that we are undertaking regarding ship and construction yard threads taking place here at SWFans. They have both agreed to assist us by becoming staff members here at SWFans, and both understand the responsibility that comes with such a position.

We the staff agree that the two individuals we have chosen have each proven that they can operate with a great deal of common sense and fairplay in all that they do, and will now announce their names for everyone to be aware of. They will have full moderator rights to the entire SWFans board, but their main (though not only) responsibility will be to help maintain and monitor the newly created and nearly established <a href=http://www.swforums.net/forum/forumdisplay.php?s=&forumid=34>Group Shipyard</a> Forums, located in the Storytelling forum, compromised as several subforums.

We, the staff, expect it to take some time for all the guidelines to be established and agreed upon, but are here to listen to your concerns and do all we can to address them.

The two individuals to become Ship/Construction Yard moderators are:

Sanis Prent
Pierce Tondry

[Sanis Prent]

(gives a Sally Field speech)

Thank you! Thank you!

You love me! You really love me!

(hears a plethora of expletives from a few dozen irate posters...and downs 3 pops of codeine with whiskey)

Oy...damn union job :grumble :p

[Sean Piett]

It makes me mad. People just KEEP ON PUSHING for more and more rules. Well, I don't think that this is progressing. I want a game master, or I don't want any more of this. Because this is getting out of hand, and I'm getting tired of feeling obligated to post in every thread about this. I'm also getting tired of hearing that people wouldn't have the resources to do anything. Well, if you'd rather ration out hundreds of thousands of planets to each group, FMH, feel free to. Because I support an all-or-nothing more policy.


We're like EZboard, making all sorts of unecessary improvements. Think about that, and expand on the idea, because I don't feel like preaching anymore right now.

[Sanis Prent]

Piett...these new rules are trying to gravitate more towards that kind of objectivity. I think it bears implementing, as its rather practical.

[Admiral Lebron]

You also got to think about other planets in the system. At least one or two others have to have a moon or something that can be used to mine.

[Sumor Rayial]

Got two questions on the R&D side of things.

1) Does this include stuff like planet defenses (ie cannons, sheilds but not things like orbital platforms)?

2) Do we have to post about stuff that we have already developed just saying that we have done the R&D for "such and such" ship?

[Sanis Prent]

Currently, defense systems are not included in that strata, although defense platforms would be. We still need to look into how we can produce things like shield generators, ground-to-orbit ion cannons, mines, and other things. We will update the working plan as needed for this.

It is not currently "required" per se, as we are still organizing this...but such things would definitely be appreciated.

[Mhalbrecht Dalarsco]

I have heard that there need to be takover RP's for all planet possesion, but that requires a fleet, and a fleet requires a yard, and a yard requires a planet, so could someone clear that up a bit.

[Force Master Hunter]

I have heard that there need to be takover RP's for all planet possesion, but that requires a fleet, and a fleet requires a yard, and a yard requires a planet, so could someone clear that up a bit


A fleet is NOT required for planet takeover. Use you imagineation and work out how it could be done. Others have.

[Force Master Hunter]

It makes me mad. People just KEEP ON PUSHING for more and more rules. Well, I don't think that this is progressing. I want a game master, or I don't want any more of this. Because this is getting out of hand, and I'm getting tired of feeling obligated to post in every thread about this. I'm also getting tired of hearing that people wouldn't have the resources to do anything. Well, if you'd rather ration out hundreds of thousands of planets to each group, FMH, feel free to. Because I support an all-or-nothing more policy


Maybe you should wait to see what the draft has. It answers a lot of problems and so far, everyone who reads them, approve. TThey will annoy the hell out of the players who sought to take advantage of loopholes, because of a few simple phrases included will nail down resource problems quickly and easily.

[Sanis Prent]

possession of a "homeworld" is generally implied.

[Mhalbrecht Dalarsco]

Good.
Even though The Eternal Dark has many hidden weapons, it still isn't enough to take over a planet.
As soon as the TGVC gets group recognition, I'll tell the details about the "homeworld".

[Sanis Prent]

...as well as these "Many hidden weapons", and the R&D, and build threads for them.

[Mhalbrecht Dalarsco]

That is a personal ship.
I just have tons of weapons hidden under the hull that pop out if I get attacked.

[Admiral Lebron]

Win the planet in a card game..

[Taylor Millard]

So what happens if a computer virus or a slicer gets into your system and shuts down all weapons and shields? Just curious. Eh Ronnie?

[Jyener Celchu]

Looks good to me. How do we get our group up there and accounted for?

[Admiral Lebron]

Nice pic of Borodin.

[Jehova Eaven]

yay, the cool guy from the movie. the only positive thing I've seen in this thread all day.

[Alpha]

Two things:

1) Are the plasma cannons I favor so much realilistic enough for the SW universe?

2) What about my small fleet I've been carrying around sinceI first got here. IT's real small too. Since I was forced to give my fleet to someone (I think Viscera I can't remember right now) I decided to make it more plausible.

Ship compliment:

3 Corellian Gunships (120 Metres)
4 Corellian Corvettes(150 Metres)
1 Hapan Nova Cruiser (It's the Tolaria, I need to give a whole new set of stats for it since it diverges so much from the original ones)(About 500 Metres)
1 Hapan Battle Dragon (500 Metres)
6 Escort Shuttles (32 Metres)
16 Miy'Til fighters
1 Corona Class Star Frigate (275 Metres)
5 Skipray Blastboats
1 Quasar Fire class cruiser modified for carrier duty (340 Metres)
5 B-Wings
5 E-Wings
3 K-Wings
2 HLAF-500
4 LAF-250

It's composed mostly of smaller vessels, so Is there a problem with me keeping my NPC fleet?