The Crucible

[jhyphen]

This event has truly brought out both the best and worst in people. Think of the heroism and good will that is pouring out in New York and Washington to deal with this unprecedented calamity.

Unfortunately, a small number of individuals here on the board have revealed themselves to be racists who would indiscriminately direct their anger and hatred on entire ethnic/cultural/religious groups because of the actions of terrorist organizations.

Immediate anger and vindictiveness toward those actually responsible for perpetrating these acts or the POLITICAL REGIMES supporting those who do is, one might suppose, a legitimate emotional response (albeit one that must ultimately be controlled). But to advocate the destruction of an entire ethnic/cultural/religious group on the basis of what happened is to advocate genocide.

I wish to see a decisive military response, and an all-out war on terrorism. For over three years, I participated in federal counter-terrorism activities through my service as an attorney in the U.S. Treasury Department's Office of Foreign Assets Control ("OFAC") (www.treas.gov/ofac/). (http://www.treas.gov/ofac/).) OFAC implements full-scale economic sanctions and asset freezes against the Taliban, Iran, Iraq, Libya, and individual terrorist organizations, such as the PLO. But even while at OFAC, I realized that our economic warfare against terrorism, while an effective supplement to other measures, was inadequate per se to stem the tide of terrorist activities.

At OFAC, I also came to realize that the repressive regimes that support terrorism DO NOT reflect the views of a frightened, oppressed majority of innocent civilians. These despotic governments, and the fanatics with whom they are associated, are the powerful minority. Most ordinary people in the world simply want to live their lives in peace and prosperity. I also served in the federal agency responsible for ensuring that the Arab League does not use U.S. businesses to promote its boycott of Israel. Again, the actions of oppressive regimes DO NOT necessarily reflect the sentiments of the populace.

So, it sickens and frightens me beyond belief to see fanatics on THIS side of the line advocating the destruction of an entire people. These sentiments are no better than those expressed and implemented by the terrorists themselves. In fact, I'm more scared of these reactions coming from someone who has had the benefit of living in freedom and prosperity in the United States.

I ask every right-thinking member of this board to join me in condemning anti-Arab and anti-Muslim rhetoric in all forms. Those who cannot distinguish between the innocent and the guilty are...well, terrorists themselves, no matter from where they hail.

I want to see armed retribution and, more importantly, the successful military neutralization of terrorism. But not at the expense of blind hatred and racism.

Even for those of us on the sidelines, this horrific chapter of history is a crucible that will test our character and integrity. Some will survive with their goodness and decency intact, and others will be consumed by hatred, rage, and racism. Sadly, I've already seen a few here who fell prey to the latter. I pray they see the light before their words and actions become cemented into our minds and theirs.

John Pisa-Relli

[Sluis Van Shipyards]

I second what John said. I know everyone is extremely PO'ed about this but don't resort to racist comments. The majority of people who follow Islam abhor violence. The groups that we see carrying out these attacks follow a twisted version of Islam that allows them to justify carrying out attacks against the west. Just don't stoop to their level.

[forttusken]

I agree with most of what you say but an act like this leads to hate. How can it not especially those that are closest to it. We need to have a place to vent anger and unfortunately those with minor prejudices will have their emotions amplified at times like this. I am not saying it is right, it is just the way it is.

People who are this upset hopefully will not be making decisions about how we strike back.

This whole situation was caused by hate and I do not accept or condone any hate towards any race or religion.

[jhyphen]

Tusken:

Anger and vindictiveness toward the perpetrators is a valid (albeit visceral) response. Hatred of an entire ethic/cultural/religious group is NEVER acceptable. It may occur, but it is NOT acceptable.

These are important distinctions, and what separates us from the animals (human and otherwise)....

[moffeaton]

I agree wholeheartedly, John. My thoughts are with people like my next door neighbor, who is an Arab - does he fear going out in public now, in a town full of "good 'ol boys" here in Maryland? Are my Pakistani in Chicago friends going to be subjected to looks of hatred by people who assume their Middle-Eastern features make them "the enemy"? It reminds me of the deli down the street from my Mother's house, which was owned by a WWII vet who (and I actually witnessed this) would not serve an Asian customer, because he fought the Japanese in his youth. Unbelievable, but this is the reality. I think the mentality is born of fear - people don't know *who* exactly is to blame, and lash out at the most "appropriate" target.
I hope that in the events to come, we remain level-headed and just. That we grow wiser from this tragedy and not stoop to the levels of the terrorists.

I don't pretend to know all the details, and am no foreign policy expert - so I will not offer my thoughts on what I think should happen - I really don't know. But I value human life, peace, justice, and freedom. I am proud and feel fortunate to be born and raised an American, and hope we weild our military power correctly.

Take care everyone, Jason

[glimadyne]

Well said John.

I too believe the individuals need to be brought to justice, not an entire race of people. Furthermore, the country harboring these folks need equal punishment as well. When I was at the CIA, the horrific murders of CIA employees outside of headquarters was yet another terrorist act. I was there. Since the subject escaped the US, it took the CIA and FBI 4 yrs to capture Mir Aimal Kansi for his terrorist acts. And this was just one man. He was in hiding and harbored by other governments. When you have no HUMINT in those countries, it becomes very difficult to gather intelligence. ELINT is just not enough. I too have worked with counter-terrorism units in the intelligence community, and at that time they were attempting to redefine themselves to address these types of "new threats". It is not an easy task.

So, I believe that justice will be slow due to the layers of governement who actively help these fugitives. The terrorists are not stupid. They hide where it is difficult to get to them. But make no mistake, when the intel comes in justice will be swift, but until then we should be civilized and mindful, yet calculated in our response.

[Saberlicious]

I applaud John's sentiments. While anger can cloud judgement, we have to remember that those specifically responsible for this attrocity are accountable and they alone. While NATO and the UN debate their responses and the President decides on his next course of action, I think the world changed forever, yesterday. Terrorists should now be very affraid, the weight of world opinion has hopefully been mobilized against them. Their very acts which brought about the deaths of all those innocent souls may have been a clarion call to right minded peoples across the globe.

Barry

[sjanish]

I agree with John. I admit that I want swift and visceral action against those responsible. If we go to war I support our country and military regardless of the sad reality of collateral damage against innocent civilians...afterall, were those in the WTC not collateral too?

At the same time I find some of the recent racial remarks totally out of line and disgusting. Calling a spade a spade is one thing, but broad generalizations and the use of hate language is not the way make your point. It serves only to make you look foolish.

[Microflash Studios UK]

Thank you John......

We need more intelligent discourse on this board and I hope that this post encourages it.
An act of 'terrorism' is an act of terrorism not an act of war....please try to remember this - however difficult.
This is a 'minority' attack even though it has massive proportions.

There is NEVER an excuse for ANY type of racisim whatsever.

God bless all that have needlessly died.

Laszlo

[TK502]

i understand docking bay. i exaggerated on the quote. i know none of you want me dead...at least i hope not good total recall reference (i love that movie) yes i used racist words, that i don't deny. i was only referring to the bastards that commited this terrible act.

"Unfortunately, a small number of individuals here on the board have revealed themselves to be racists who would indiscriminately direct their anger and hatred on entire ethnic/cultural/religious groups because of the actions of terrorist organizations."
i have never or will never direct my anger on an entire race etc... repeat i was ONLY talking about the terrorists. so john and everyone else who believes i hate everyone please understand that i do not. i will never use hurtful words again on this board and am truly sorry for all the sh!t that i've caused. i hope this settles things. take care everyone
chris

[ytt1300]

Once again JHyphen is a voice of reason, I totally agree with his statements. I live in the N. California bay area, one of the more culturally diverse areas in the country. My next door neighbor is Afgani, and a devout Muslim, he and I are friends, and this has in no way clouded my opinion of him and his family. I fear they may be subjected to unfair treatment, even though they love America, and have made the choice to leave their home country and look for a better life here.

We must be sure we find those guilty and those that protect the guilty, and when we do, I want to see a Marine Corp flag flying over piles of smoking rubble.

[Jades Dark Heart]

Grief comes in many shapes and forms!

[Jades Dark Heart]

I think this sums it up though:

GBA
Greg
http://members.aol.com/gauntlett/images/flag.jpg

[Jokar Lurden]

I have to agree too. I've heard too many comments by people (not necesarily from this board) saying "let's bomb them back to the stone age" etc.

Bombing a certain country, because of what a few have done makes us no better than the terrorists themselves. A huge and pointless loss of life is what occured yesterday, is there any need for that to happen again? <img src=http://www.ezboard.com/intl/aenglish/images/emoticons/ohwell.gif ALT=":\">

Jades Dark Heart: a very poignant picture, and one that I am sure will not soon be forgotten....

[hydin]

i agree.

i was the one who made the bomb them back to the stone age comment, and i still fully support it IF the country is harboring fugitives willingly. whoever did this must pay, and pay dearly, and thier accomplices must also fall wth them. whats to stop them from doing it again and again when we just grab one terrorist, and then another pops up to hide behind the same border?

im not slamming any race of people. i dont believe IN races of people. we are all human beings. if we ever had aliens come visit the planet, thats a different species and race to me. we are all just different shades of human on the planet.

but whoever knowingly harbors the animals who are responsible for yesterday needs a harsh lesson, and i feel we should give it to them. and yes, i would feel the same way if it was france that was bombed the way we were, or sweden, germany, ireland, iraq, etc.

no one should needlessly take lives. wars one thing, this was nothing short of cowardice.

i have no issues with anyone except those responsible for this, and those who harbor them. it might be guilt by association, but we have a law in this country that says the same thing about harboring fugitives. if you do it willingly, you pay the price. whoever did that has a pretty big bill coming.

with that said, i agree fully on the call for everyone to not generalize the hatred you feel towards one particular religion/group. hate the people that DID it if you need to hate. dont condemn a larger group of people that werent behind this.

chris

[DrStranglove]

John is correct. I actually believe in the "do not give in to hate" quote. It is true, do not hate them, but do get back and bring them to justice. Simply by what I do for the Government, I am confident that I will be on the forfront of whatever action is taken. I have done some pretty bad things in my time but I have never given in to racism or hate, as I like to call it. As I believe RACISM=HATE. But I said it before and I will say it again...


"Once more unto the breach, dear friends, once more...or close the wall with our dead! In peace, nothing so becomes a man as modesty and humility. But when the blast of war blows in our ears, then imitate the action of the Tyger. Summon up the blood. Disguise fair nature with rage, and lend the eye a terrible aspect."


DrS

[StormLeader]

I agree that we need to wait to find out exactly which people are responsible for this and then bomb THEM into the Stone Age. That's the great thing about cruise missiles and smart bombs, you can do just that....

I know it would be a great inconvienience to some, but I think they should suspend international travel to and from the U.S. for a while. Whoever helped these guys on the ground is still HERE somewhere. And the FBI has a knack for tracking these kind of bad guys, at least domestically....

And I agree with what Glim said, the intelligence community needs to build their HUMINT resources back up. Electronic survelliance technology is nice, but can't give you the whole picture. At least IMO, i'm no expert or anything, but I'm a buff.:)

[tripoli]

I am at work and do not have enough time right now to properly argue my point, but I will throw a few concepts out to chew on.
I agree that it is not proper to blame a whole country for the acts of a few. Though if a countries government is supportive of that, then the country does in the end ( all people innnocent and not) bear responsibility. They allow the countries political structure exist to do such things as support to terrorist activities for example. This is what makes war such a dirty thing.
The President used the term act of war purposely. Putnum remarked that a scorched earth policy would be tolerated in such a situation. Current breifings in congress and the Senate suggest that a powerful response is in the works. All extremely strong indications that when retribution comes, it will be done in a "big" manner. Given what has occurred, a large scale attack, or tactical nuclear strike might be considered a proper message that the US will not tolerate such an attack again in the future. A message of this sort may be considered the only way of handling a response that gets the message through to terrorist and co-operative terrorist supporting governments that we will not tolerate this. Given that country heads in the middle east that normally will not even speak with us in normal relations are offering condolences and even help from leaders like Kadafi, they may have this same frame of thought on their minds. That this act went way too far, and the retribution will reflect that.

I am not saying that we should hate all those in a country that ends up being possibly termed responsible for this act. No advocation in any way to that. I agree with John that to catagorically place all those responsible on an idividual level in that level of consideration or mentality is wrong. But I have to advocate that such a response (tactical nuclear hits) may be the best thing to do.

In an ideal world, I would advocate gun control. But reallity dictates that there are bad people out there that are going to use it against me, and I therefore want to be able to defend myself in the same way. Ideallistically, everyone that goes through the justice system should get the ultimate fair trail, ultinmate investigation, ultimmate defense, and final just judgement to seperate the guilty from the innocent. But the cost and time factors do not allow for a perfect justice system.
Ideally, I would have like to never had the US drop the atomic bomb. But we did, and it saved hundreds of thousands of lives to do so. And I agree this was the proper thing to do in this situation. US docterine has since been that we should not use them in a conventional way, but rather use our military in a manner that does not harm innocent civilian lives as much as can be possible. To this point, we have never had to consider any terms that would avoid this docterine.
Now we are looking at thousands of live lost on US soil, Billions of dollars in assets lost. Ans America needs to let those who have perpetrated this, supported this, know that this cannot be tolerated. How do you send such a message?
The Soviets during the 80's had the problem with domestic terrorism. Their response was to kill the terrorist, their families, their relatives, and anyone else close to the terrorist. Was this morally right? NO. But, within a year, domestic terrorism was almost domestically eradicated. They reacted with a response that stopped the actions used by terrorist against them.
Should we use the same type "scorched earth" doctorine in this case? Do we want to see yet another act like this? Personally, I see no other answer than to send an absolute message that we will not tolerated this sort of action against the US. That a tactical hit is a necessity in this case. That we may also have to adapt a new doctorine in regards to this type of terrorism.

[jhyphen]

Let me add that any military action aimed at a sovereign carries the risk of collateral damage. That's not my point at all.

I'm simply opposed to making a sweeping generalization about ethnic/cultural/religious groups. We have strong trade sanctions against Iran. But we do not target individual Iranian nationals, and God forbid we express hatred toward innocent Iranians in the United States.

I'm trying not to come off like inspector hyphen of the thought police, which would be hypocritical in the face of my well-worn stance on free speech. At the end of the day, people can use the most horrible, ignorant epithets they want to describe people. I can't stop them from doing that, and it's not my place to do so.

But I can express my opposition to such rhetoric and the hateful or ignorant intent behind it.

Does anyone believe that unqualified anti-Arab, anti-Muslim sentiments are appropriate?

I sure hope not.

Let's not dwell on this point, since we have bigger fish to fry. I just thought it was necessary to stand up against irrational expressions of hatred on our side before they overshadow the goodness and decency so predominantly on display.

Let's chalk up this unfortunate episode to intense emotions, get a reality check, and support our country's efforts to eradicate terrorism from the face of the earth.

And let's donate blood!

Moving right along....

[Bittersweet Me32]

Very, very sad....

I am glad to see thoughtful and intelligent dialogue happening here. I really think that that's what is ultimately needed - open, honest, cool-headed discussion, on a global basis. Wishful thinking? Maybe...

I was born in Pittsburgh, grew up in New York, have always had family in D.C., and presently live in L.A. When I saw the news yesterday, well, I was out of my mind with grief and anger. It felt SO personal.

My first reaction was "bomb bin Laden!" Then, I felt, "okay, give them an hour to get the women and children out." Then this morning, I'd been convinced that they should have 3 days to vacate their civilians. Now, after obsessing over this issue for more than a day, I wonder if we'd be stooping to their barbarism to react in such a predictable and violent manner.

Yes, terrorists need to be handled, for sure. But what about the innocents that are taken out? Just as we've had our hearts broken by yesterday's tragedies, how many civilians have died at the hands of the US and/or US-supported or supplied nations? Can we even truly know what US involvement has been in the planet's ongoing wars??

I'm not, by any means, condoning what they did yesterday. I'm just saying, maybe it's time we stand back and really take a look at our actions/participation/support in others' battles. Certainly if we're engaging in the massacre of civilians in other countries, they are going to feel justified in their revenge. If the US is supposed to be the ideal for freedom and democracy, shouldn't we be more vigilant as a people, in demanding accountability from our leaders??

Check out this progressive and interesting site, which offers some alternative views:

www.commondreams.org/911.htm (http://www.commondreams.org/911.htm)

Notice the comment (probably on page 3 by now), (paraphrasing): "more Iraqi children have died from US bombings in the last 10 years, than Jewish children died at the hands of the Third Reich in the same amount of time"?? My mathematician boss says that that cannot be correct. But it does get you thinking about our responsibility in what happened here.

And from another poster there: "...the only safe place is on our knees, praying for peace."

Take care, be safe.

[Grand Milk Carton0]

There is nothing "progressive" about that site, just subversive.

[Bittersweet Me32]

GMC: A friend sent me the link and I've only read a couple dozen posts or so. It just made me question my initial thoughts/reactions. I don't necessarily agree with the posters there. But I do think it's important for us to try to understand why Americans are so hated by some of these countries.

Thanks for your remark.

[Grand Milk Carton0]

I was just stating my thoughts, It is easy for many of us to act pious and say, well blame those that caused this not from where they are from, But you know it's hard when you are talking to a friend who was working in Battery park on a stage when the plane hit and jumped under, and listen to him explain how pieces of building and plane and landing on the stage and a Charred head still on fire rolls under it with him. Or listen to how his Girlfriends' Friend has her best friend stuck under rubble and gets a call from her every 4 hours to say she is still alive. Rescue workers know where she is but can't even attempt to get to her for 4 or 5 days now because of shifting rubble and it's still to dangerous. What happens when she doesn't get another call. And then to hear there is cheering in the west bank. It's a primal urge to want revenge against the people who did this. And stupid quotes from sci-fi movies aren't going to quell the anger in these people. This is something many are going to have to come to terms with. And hopefully they will and direct it towards the true people responsible. I am sick of hearing bleeding hearts, and apologist make excuses for these sick fucks and say maybe we should examine ourselves and try to play these people as victims with this being their last course for action. Yet these are the same people that months ago wanted the US to go in and stop the Taliban from blowing up statues. This is something more then US middle east policies, or US support of Israel. That is only a small part. Osama bin laden has declared a Jihad against the Infidels, and the US is the head of the snake. There are no Civilian targets, no military targets. Just targets. They don't give a @#%$ if you support their cause or feel they are in the right, you represent the west and they want you dead. This guy has 26k people that will follow him on his Holy Crusade. And these aren't just people across the sea. These are people that have no problem getting here. Be you Catholic, Jewish, Christian, Wiccan, Atheist or whatever, you do not deserve to live to these people, And the worst Violence is the violence that is committed in the name of God. I walk around work and I see the Arab people I work with and I see the embarrassment and shame on their faces and I feel for them. I really hope people are putting the blame where it belongs, but at the same time I can understand how it can be hard not to "blame and want to attack people from the same Global region as these monsters when you sit and think these monsters had no problem attacking people from the same global region they hate."

[DrStranglove]

BTSM32,

Your boss is right. The comment about the Us bombing and the children and Hitler is simply not true. Unless you accept that the Iraqi's claim that every child that died since 1991 was the US's fault. And even then there child mortality rate has not been over 1,000,000 people per decade, which is what it would have to be to even get close.

My source was the State Dept. web site via a friend at Leajune.


DrS

"Once more unto the breach, dear friends, once more...or close the wall with our dead! In peace, nothing so becomes a man as modesty and humility. But when the blast of war blows in our ears, then imitate the action of the Tyger. Summon up the blood. Disguise fair nature with rage, and lend the eye a terrible aspect."