501st meltdown....

[glimadyne]

Has anyone else been following the 501st meltdown? All the usual suspects over there have been slinging plenty of mud. I found it quite disconcerting, since I really used to enjoy the 501st when there wasnt leagues of commanders, XOs, privates, milk maids, cooks, and all the other red tape, egos, and futuristic caste system in place over there.

I dont know what is true, but there are some serious allegations of illegal raffles, cooking internal books, and syphoning club money for personal gain (DragonCon was mentioned). Pretty serious if you ask me. In any event, does anyone know if these allegations have merit? If they do, it is not a good day for the 501st....

[rmschneider104]

I know very little about the 501st. Just the general knowledge you get by surfing the web. I have a set of trooper armor, but never got into the 501st scene. I've heard grumblings for awhile now about some of the same things you mentioned (for example, structure and hierarchy).

Sorry I cannot help. I'd be interested in hearing more, too.

[Helmschmied]

in this age...I cant belive this is even an issue worth a thought---10,000 might be DEAD and we are in an emergency crisis!

I agree...I collect costumes and props for simple amusement and general fascination, but when its taken to the extent of even mentioning the word 'hierarchy' in the same sentence, its just down right pathetic. Like I said...the fact that some think that they are somehow in the 'hobbistic' military becasue the wear a plastic costume is just plain embarassing to any of us who like SW and sci fi.

[SSTCop]

You know I thought it very funny to see everyone complaining about Scott ripping them off and taking their money. Then I go to DragonCon and he is collecting money for a raffle. Oh I see that thing being properly handled. No problems there. It was funny to hear everyone that knew the ongoing problems laugh about that.

[RicosRednecks]

well thats why I am getting out..most of the fellow 501 st guys are great to hang with and cool as hell while others are just.......well you know.
It was a helluva lot more fun when Albin ran the show even though it was not the mega-group it is now.
In my opinion thats what ruins most clubs and groups, anytime an organization goes "big" it tends to become more impersonal,so many members and the need for organizers in certain reigeons to cordinate meetings and outings,then comes the guys who want to be in charge for the sake of being in the in-crowd and having that spiffy title so they can say "look at me I am so cool cause I have a neat title".
then you have Mr. Hawkins this dude would sell things he has no intention of providing you with or never had in his posession in the first place.
It's just become a internal mess maybe the 501st will cleanhouse and rebuild itself,but I have a feeling it wont and will either continue on like it is or crumble from within and eventually disband. hahah or either Scott will hold more raffles and get all of them arrested for it first.
disclaimer:
this is not a flame directed at any individual members of the 501st and is intended only as a personal opinion.

[Army Scout]

Scott Hawkins resigned his Command...heres his email to the 501st....


Date: Sat, 15 Sep 2001 02:32:54 -0000
From: mypopmail@y...
Subject: I resign effective today

This decision was made BEFORE DC2001.
It was made with the good of the Legion in mind.
It was made out of concern for my family, my friends here and the501st's future.

It was discussed with my wife and close 501st friends.
The resignation is NOT b/c of the BS with DC2001.
It was decided but told to only a few before the Con.
Let me quickly explain: The public's perception of the Legion and the future growth are my main concern as a trooper. My family and personal life are my ONLY concern as a private citizen. Because of the troubles with a liar and thief overseas (re: the Indiana Jones doll situation) and the resulting witch-hunt online that some 501st members believe, combined with the small but growing cell of trouble-makers in the Legion…I can no longer concern myself with the duties of XO. It's that simple.

I've tried my best and made mistakes, but if I become a simple trooper, I can be much more effective on a local level. No ego, no hurrahs, nothing but simple trooping with the sole purpose of entertaining fans and spreading goodwill. That's why I joined and why I will continue with my best efforts.

At DC2001, the Commanders decided on a set of protocols for command that effectively delegated much of my responsibility to the local levels. The leadership will be deciding on other positions that have been created to fill
needs that I will be leaving behind. If they decide to elect me to an office of PR, promotion, schmoozing…whatever you want to call it...that's fine.

In regards to SWCII, I am still the primary contact with WOTC for the 501st room block and booth area. If the commanders decide I am the best to fill the role of promoter and fan giveaways (tattoos, stickers, etc), then that is great. Once I get word back about how WOTC wants to handle the rooms and booth, I'll forward it to the group with appropriate information on how to reserve your room and the rates involved. There are also still some items that Albin and I are working on in regards to LFL the 501st, the SW Insider
and other issues that will make the 501st a larger force in the SW fanbase. I will continue to work with these issues and Albin.

Any outstanding personal issues will be resolved and any merchandise (shirts, stickers) are still on-track. However, for the next few days I prefer to be left alone in regards to this decision. It will take that long to collect my thoughts and delegate remaining authority to individuals already chosen
for those roles.

I call for an open election now for a new leader and suggest that the command find an interim person for this role. I will be here, on a local level in Colorado, doing my best for this group.

To my detractors and enemies, you may think you have won…but I will still be more active and effective that you will ever be, because I love this group as a whole and what it represents. To my friends, thanks for your support and I hope my passion and attention to the concerns and morale of the group continue to inspire you.

Regards-
Scott Hawkins
TK187/10th Mountain Garrison


Chris

[dualedge]

I would like to add a couple of thoughts on this.


Glimadyne: does anyone know if these allegations have merit?

Yes, these accusations do have merit. This has happened before and this time more than a few people noticed the inconsistencies and questionable occurences surrounding this raffle personally - myself included.

The 501st often considers itself a "charitable" group albeit an unofficial one. So then, should a "charitable" group allow it's leader to hold raffles for "charity" when there is NO accounting of funds or accountability for where funds are directed? "Expenses" are compensated yet are not accounted for... If this was a "charity" raffle, why is a $240 expense for "manning tables" noted? Who gets that? The dozen people that manned the tables as *volunteers*? Or does that go straight into one person's pocket?

One of our own group posted the Georgia laws relating to charity raffles. Needless to say the raffle I *personally* witnessed at DragonCon was not in accordance with ANY laws.

So, yes, I KNOW these accusations have merit.

Why pursue this? Because I believe a group I like to hang out with IS getting dragged through the mud. Pointing out errors is not fun and perhaps it can devolve into mudslinging but would it be better if this got swept under the carpet so it can continue?

There are a number of folks on the RPF that are quick to rip on the 501st yet aren't involved. There are folks in the 501st that are mad "because it isn't fun anymore."

We are trying to change that. You guys know some of us 501st members. You know we are good guys - I hope at least. We like to have fun but there are plenty of us in the 501st who don't want to throw up our hands and just abandon the 501st or worse, let it devolve into something worse.

I believe we are on the verge of becoming a REAL club - of course, not an "official" Lucas Film club but a real club with direct ties to LFL none-the-less. There are growing pains but is that not worth it and worth the trouble of working to make it better?


Helmshmied: but when its taken to the extent of even mentioning the word 'hierarchy' in the same sentence, its just down right pathetic. Like I said...the fact that some think that they are somehow in the 'hobbistic' military becasue the wear a plastic costume is just plain embarassing to any of us who like SW and sci fi.

You've said this before, Helm, and personally I think your argument has no merit. I bit my tongue before but will try to address this now since you like to criticize us publicly for this (and i honestly don't know what is motivating that). You are not a member of the 501st and don't care to be which is fine - I have no problem with you - you seem like a good guy. But be realistic. It's a fan club - an unofficial club run by a bunch of fans but still a fan club. What club do you know of that does not have some basic form of organization. My wife is in a dog club. It's about dogs but they have presidents, vice-presidents, secretaries, treasury secretaries, chairmen, co-chairmen, etc., etc., etc. Maybe they don't call their "leaders" silly names but the nature of the club doesn't lend itself to that as does ours.

Since we are a fan club about the "Empire," our structure is CALLED things like garrisons, outposts, X0's, C0's, etc. It's a part of the FUN of playing the role and isn't that the whole idea of costuming? Playing the role - at least while your costuming?

Do you seriously think we are trying be a military? Of course we're sci-fi geeks. Who on this board isn't? I hope you don't really believe we're so deluded as to think anyone is really an "Executive Officer" or a "Commanding Officer?" If that's too geeky for you, fine. If you like to costume alone or without an particular group, fine. If you don't like to associate with people that DO like to costume, that's fine too.

That's your choice and I have no gripe with you but if you've got a legitimate complaint, make it. I'm sure there are plenty of things we disagree on that perhaps would be worth debating but yet you seem only interested in calling us "pathetic" and stating how we embarass you. Heck, criticize us on something WORTH criticizing us on like this raffle crap that we're trying to make sure doesn't happen again.

Rob

[glimadyne]

I have been with the 501st since its inception, and I can say that I have witnessed the 501st go from an enjoyable group to a downright embarrassement to be involved with. It is a great idea that has been poorly executed. The downfall was the placement of key people who ran the group for personal profit. I thought that this was in bad taste. How can you do charity events when one or two people are always pocketing money?? That just doesnt make sense. Due to a conflict in my ethical views, I couldnt bring myself to participate until I saw those things rectified. I hope they are. I know there are many members in the 501st, with many of them trying to do good.

However, you are judged by the company you keep...

[streetjudge79]

I was at Dragoncon and observed Scott Hawkins manning the Raffle booth. He was supposedly giving away a set of really crappy Scout armor according to the literature at the booth. I said to a friend of mine when I saw that," He is probably going to take the money from the raffle and either pay back the people with the Indy Doll orders or Just keep it and the armor and run off."
Does anyone actually know what happened to that money?
All I have to say is BRING BACK ALBIN!!!!!!
Hawkins is THE EMBARRASSMENT to the 501st! The stories I have heard first hand are sickening!

[glimadyne]

Interesting, thanks for the input. It was hard to tell who is telling the truth, since S.H and B.B. are pointing fingers back at each other with different stories. Not sure what to make of it. People's post are also being censored. I even saw that S.H. was talking about involving his lawyer in the matter. In any case, it is unfortunate that money has been the major evil over there. You think we would be better than that...

[SSTCop]

Yeah, who won the armor.....is there an actual person that won........

[TheLivingForce]

Hello everybody!!

Although I am relatively new to posting on the board, I would love to contribute my info, specifically regarding the Indy doll issue. I have been in contact off and on with Scott ever since the January Indy auctions. He always was very communicative with me for the last eight to nine months. Thank you ArmyScout for the posting that email regarding his resignation. That has truly helped on the matter. Hopefully since emailing him yesterday, he has intentions of contacting me with the same info regarding the suppliers( I hope), and everybody else who put money into this. I have talked to Albin via email, and he was very kind and friendly. He wanted me to keep him informed regarding this issue as it unfolded. I hope you are right Streetjudge about him possibly having the intention of refunding us on the Indy doll. He said in his most recent email to me about having a "resolution plan" in December. If ArmyScout or any member of the 501st has any more info concerning this issue(especially the resolution plan) please either post or email me at your earliest. here is a link to my first thread concerning this issue...

pub2.ezboard.com/fswvstitanicfrm21.showMessage?topicID=3245.topic (http://pub2.ezboard.com/fswvstitanicfrm21.showMessage?topicID=3245.topic)

I really hope the 501st rises up from this unfortunate time, and good luck to all members and non members in resolving this:)

WooHOO! my 100th post:)

-Neal

[RoDann]

I was at DragonCon, and though I don't know much about the situation, I was talking with someone at the booth. He thought I was someone else, so he came up to me and started a conversation. I asked if he was with the 501st, and I got a "Yeah, but......shhhh.....Don't tell anyone. No one is supposed to know". Kinda makes you wonder......

[TK725]

*Sighs and shakes head.*

No comment.

[0neiros]

good lord, I thought this only happened to Star Trek Clubs. I Helped run a club that grew to over 70 members, then in sort order it went to crap-members siphoning funds, playing dictator, etc. Seems to be a trait among fan clubs sadly. I say that when a club stops being fun, and becomes a chore, or more like a business, it's time to close shop. As for Mr. Hawkins (my bad, I was trying to get this in before I headed to work), the fact that this joker isn't behind bars at this point amazes me. He has Stolen over $10,000.00 from people, that's the fact. If you take Money for something, and don't deliver it, it's stealing, pure and simple. Frankly someone at the con should have walked over to his "Raffle" and lit him up like a christmas tree. SIGH.

[Darth Bill]

You're mixing 'issues' together...

Tait has nothing to do with the 501st.



Russ

[TK725]

I have always hated the idea of the 501st selling things. Many should remember the few times I got jumped on for voicing my opinion on that. Everyone used to flip on me just for warning about the possiblity of negitive effects. Well here they are now..


I posted the above on the 501st board twice but have yet to see it appear so I posted it here. Many 501st members should remember me protesting items being sold by Scott and others long before this happened.

[glimadyne]

The last time I protested something on the 501st board, I was lynched in no time. I thought everyone was in this like-minded "brotherhood" for the fun of it, but is smells like greed and power mongering in my opinion. I hope it all gets sorts out, particularly if the said allegations have merit. It's hard to tell the wheat from the chaff over there right now....

[Sandtrooper]

To answer SSTCop's question...yes. the Armor was won by one of our own members...I believe it was Queen Quincys parents. Thats a good thing too, if they dont rcieve the armor, they might not be all that upset because they can actually see the crap Scott has gotten us in. But, Im concerned about the person that won the
other prizes, especially the trip to Celebration 2. They are the ones that cannot see WHY they are gonna get screwed. I believe we should get a copy of the emails of the winners and mail them...but Im sure Scott wont release that info. I had told my Garrison members that we should
write them down as they were called out, but none of us had a pen at the time. In fact, I believe it was me and streetjudge that were discussing that the raffle was going to be a big scam....and heres the kicker..Scott blames Bob Bean and another GA. member for the whole thing. Hes threatened to counter sue them for God knows what. We have copies of every email regarding that. Anyway...my girlfriend, myself, and SEVERAL other members have dropped out of the 501st until a responsible, non money hungry leader is appointed.....ALBIN, youre our only hope!!!!


Derek

[TK725]

There are a lot of terrific and wonderful caring people in the 501st but sadly those that choose to lash out at those that hold different opinions over shadow the members that are in it for the fun, not for the fights, the so called 'fame' or for the 'power'. The 501st should start cutting back on selling things but of course many won't agree with me on that. What can I do? I can't stop them. Its thier choice but in MY opinion along with the opinions of others no doubt thier choice is seen as a dangerous one. The fact of wear people got thier armor and how doesn't really apply to the matter I am discussing. I am talking about a club that was in great shape, grew, and then seemed to grow greedy as soon as money came into the picture. I have voiced my opinion on this only to be shunned and shouted at time and time again until it got to the point where I chose not to recieve 501st mail in my e-mailbox any longer. I still have it set up that way. I long for the days when money wasn't an issue but the fans and the fun were.

[TK1215]

We will pull through this as a group and grow from the learning!!
I also think change at this point is a good idea!!!
Keep your heads up Troopers!!!!!

[Sandtrooper]

good thinking Nick!!!!

Derek

[TK725]

I don't know what the deal is, maybe someone is moderating the posts before putting them on the board and there are 5 of mine waiting with others. All I know is I posted 5 times on egroups and they haven't shown up yet. Posted them around 8pm maybe a little later than that.

[Sandtrooper]

If the posts say anything bad about Scott, he deletes them ASAP. Hes even censoring the stuff that Bob writes....


Derek

[glimadyne]

I know that posts were censored recently in a discussion I was involved in. It appears that there is no free speech over at the 501st. No telling what has happened now. If all this is true, the irony is that one person is threatening to sue another, whilst that person has supposedly stolen over $10,000 from people on this board (from what others have posted in the past here). How messed up is that! My question is: where does the greed end? I simply joined the group years ago to have fun in a trooper uniform....

[Army Scout]

I try not to get involved in all this crap.

I will hang out with the So Calif Garrison and continue to have a good time. This garbage is getting resolved, and the sooner the better!

Chris

[glimadyne]

Amen Chris! the problem I have is that Scott is in charge of the Colorado garrison I am in. Although I trooped with him once before and things were fine, I later found out about all this questionable behavior. So it has become hard for me to support a group that cheats, steals, and lies to and from itself. It appears I am between a rock and a hard place. I suppose I will just do my own thing til this all gets fixed.... :(

[TK725]

Maybe it's time for an new egroup to be formed for the 501st?

[TK1215]

Hey glimadyne, seems you and I are in the same boat... Where are you located? I'm also located in Colorado...

[glimadyne]

Nick, I am right outside of Boulder. I havent done much trooping lately. But, I have 2 sets of armor and will be doing something this Halloween and hopefully for EPII.

[TK725]

Anyone up for a chat in the 501st egroups chatroom? We can't be censored there.I'll be in there for a bit.

[TK1215]

Hey Cool!!! I'm in Loveland.. We are about 30 minutes from one another... I haven't dome much myself lately. I will be going to the Garrison picnic to check on Dog Tags and some other stuff needing a face to face... We should hook up for EPII.. LMK and stay in touch!!

[Helmschmied]

Dualedge....


Im just saying that there are some dudes out yonder who need to get a frickin life. Let me give you an analogy. I am a loosely affiliated with an umbrella medieval organization that does a lot of things. One of the biggets 'pulls' is an actual sport wearing armor. In a nutshell, members wear real armor and actually fight using wooden weapons. Now, there are levels of participation of men and women which range from super living history buffs who attend events wearing the most accurate clothing and armor they can make, find, or buy. This is a regulated sport, so guys cant put spikes in there weapons and the point is NOT to hurt anyone, but effectively win by striking hard enough your opponent agknolwedges it and so on. Armor too is inspected before the battles which are huge...some have as many as 2000 -3000 fighters. Its really a blast fighting with your buddies.

The kinds and nobles in these medieval organizations often become so by winning a combat tournament. They fight for it, literally. While seemingly insane, the comraderay is really quite high...winners showing losers how they won, the moves they made etc. The societies also sponser a helluva lot of educational and charitable events, the former of which have actually led to quite a lot of advancements in historical interpretation and understanding.

Now, while all of this is intened as something ~fun~....it
starts to lose its appeal when the Kings and nobility, start to act like REAL nobles and start bossing people around, making them stand guard outside the encampments, making newer members virtual butt-boys-- you get the idea...when this happens, it just aint fun.

The point Im making (which may seem a bit hard to follow if you arent familiar with the 50,000 members in medieval organizations) is that there are some very cool costumes, movies and entertainment 'out there.' But when it starts to creep into real life and hierarchies BASED ON EGOS start to emerge...then you know you have a problem..because thats when certain members of that particular organization start to blur the lines between fiction (or the 'past' -to be fair) and real life. There is a definate difference between a hierarchical leader and an organizer.

I think its cool when everybody wears their costumes at these cons and parties--its indeed a visual feast, and its FUN. I just think its pointless to organize something when there really isnt much of a point to organize. Going to charitible events is indeed noble endeavor...but lets call a spade a spade...<<<<most of these cats just want to belong to something that makes them feel like theyre in some militaristic organization when its nothing more than a plastic costume on.>>>> Hey, you could raise a stink about what I do to...except that there is real competition, an educational backdrop to it all, and when guys start to abuse their titles...they lose favor real fast and arent invited to participate in the next round of noble seeking tournaments. We too get involved in charitble and educational events, but nature of the 501st (as Stormtroopers) is essentially space nazis...I mean, great looking costumes, but kinda a negative connotation when you really think about it. The Star Wars Empire was EVIL...making charitible events a bit...shall we say, odd.

Its no wonder the Onion has a field day.

So, I do humbly apoligize for crunching on disco boots here...not really my objective. Im sure I would love to wear my Vader costume to a con sometime, and enjoy the attention as well as seeing everyone else. But if someone asked me to join an organization that wears sci-fi costumes...Id think, 'yeah its fun to wear them at a con or a party...but otherwise, Id naturally think...what the objective? So far, no one has convinced me of any real objective than playtime in plastic.

Yup...I know your gonna trash my essay...go ahead...Im open and would love to hear a good reason. BUT PLEASE, before you cut me up for any hypocracies Im sure I made here and there...LISTEN and DIGEST the KEY points Im making...I know Im not the only sci-fi fan with a love of costumes too who shares this point of view.

H

[Army Scout]

Hey Helm...

I do the 501st thing because I like it...plain and simple. You do the Medieval thing for the same reason. I enjoy the Con's...and most of the folk's I meet at the con's. Fun is fun no matter what you do or where you do it.

Is the 501st my life? Hell no, I'm a 34 year old computer analyst who also has 16 years in the military. A great GF and 2 daughters who think I'm weird cause of my hobby. Like I said.....it's fun!


'yeah its fun to wear them at a con or a party...but otherwise, Id naturally think...what the objective?

You answered your own question here! Since when do we need an objective for a hobby?

Every group has its problems, the 501st is not an exception. If you dont want to be a "Space Nazi" so be it. No sweat off my ass. But if you do Ill be more than happy to buy ya a beer!

Chris
TB111
Southern California Garrison

[Helmschmied]

Hey Chris,

I hear ya man..but I just dont get it..what is the FUNCTION of the organization? People keep saying "charity," but this sounds like a mere reconciliation for lack of a better explanation....or worse....a means for someone to gather 'group' funds for largely personal gain. If a con naturally gathers costumed folks, why bother organizing since members are so scattered anyway?

Im completely serious...I think the costumes are really cool and dont think anyone is a geek just for putting one one, heck I love wearing costumes...I love talking sci fi with friends and buddies, but I dont understand why its "organized" in the technical sense and hence giving rise to the problems Glyme was speaking about.


H

[Helmschmied]

Hey Chris,

I hear ya man..but I just dont get it..what is the FUNCTION of the organization? People keep saying "charity," but this sounds like a mere reconciliation for lack of a better explanation....or worse....a means for someone to gather 'group' funds for largely personal gain. If a con naturally gathers costumed folks, why bother organizing since members are so scattered anyway?

Im completely serious...I think the costumes are really cool and dont think anyone is a geek just for putting one one, heck I love wearing costumes...I love talking sci fi with friends and buddies, but I dont understand why its "organized" in the technical sense and hence giving rise to the problems Glyme was speaking about.

And one last note, as I mentioned...Im into BOTH, history and sci-fi so I guess Im just trying to point out some observations as seen from each angle.

H

[TK895]

Ok I hope this is the end of this thread. Scott has stepped down and we are taking care of things in house.

Jim, I really wish you would stop grouping the entire 501st together with these unfortunate events. We had no idea what Scott was going to do at DragonCon. All I knew about was our fan table for letting the public know what we are about.

I happen to be good friends of Queen Quincy and her parents. I will be watching this whole deal closely and make sure they get their prize. As far as the other winners are concerned, we will try to check out the entire list.

Now please stop bashing the entire 501st for these problems. Most of us just get together and enjoy the cons and thing we do together. Just last night The Midwest Garrison got together and helped out a Fund raising dinner for a local museum and a future exhibit to promote the awareness for organ donation. Connie Payton was the honorary Chairperson for the event.

http://www.midwestgarrison.com/images/banthaSML01.JPG

We show up places and help out, we make kids smile and laugh, we brings smiles to adults and bring back happy memories. Anytime we have ever been offered money for showing up we have asked them to donate it DIRECTLY to a local childrens charity. I don't want to sell or produce anything with our logo on it. The only thing we have is a club t-shirt that we wear before or after an event.

The 501st will prevail. If it doesn't we will still continue with what we are doing.

I enjoy this and won't let any of this junk ruin it for me or our group here in the Midwest.

TK895
Michael Washko

[tk412]

Very good Mike!!

[TK1028]

Due to a conflict in my ethical views, I couldnt bring myself to participate until I saw those things rectified. I hope they are. I know there are many members in the 501st, with many of them trying to do good.

Yes, they are rectified. As it turns out, it appears that ALL of the money that was collected had to go to the charity. The raffle was illegal according to state law, but I honestly believe Scott and Max did not know that. I agree that that they handled things incredibly poorly-- but as others have pointed out, Scott has resigned.

And regarding the purpose for organizing in a group, Mike said it well. If you have a costume and you have an e-mail or ezboard communication system, you're a group. Filing the necessary 501c3 paperwork (which I'm sure we will do very soon) will allow us to legally and properly raise money for worthy causes and will make us a better group.

I'm not saying we didn't raise money in the past, we did. I and other troopers have been a part of a jail-n-bail for the American Cancer Society in which people "paid us" donations to "lock up" their friends in an "Imperial Detention Cell" and then the prisoners could raise more "bail money" for the American Cancer Society to get out of our "prison." In this case, we were operating as authorized agents of a legitimate 501c3 organization -- and I, the ConComm staff, and the American Cancer Society can assure you that all things were done completely above board.

I have never sold anything to anyone to raise money for my squad. I have only donated action figures (purchased with my own money) for visits to Children's Hospitals. I know none of this is in dispute, and Jim has said that he knows many good people in the 501st, but I'm simply writing to tell you why I am still a part of this organization. I cannot pull off these charity events on my own. It _is_ possible when we organize into a group with communication channels.

I admit that the charity isn't the only reason I made and wear my armor-- but if going to a convention and walking around was the only reason I did, I wouldn't need to be a part of the group either. In order to coordinate volunteer charity work, it takes those who are willing to plan, organize and contact. We call them "Captain," "Leuitenant," and such for the same reason we didn't call the "jail" a Klingon gulag: it fits the theme of the costuming.

I'm also not naive enough to say that there isn't some sort of "fraternity" feeling that I have with the goodhearted women and men who wear plastic pants. To a certain extent, I think of them as my sisters and brothers.

This group is growing by leaps and bounds. It has had problems with a few individuals. I did not leave the organization because I believed there was still enough good in the ability to organize. Now I believe that more than ever. I am emabarrased by many things that have gone on in the past. I do not condone these things. But I did not leave the United States everytime we elected a leader I did not trust or everytime we elected a leader who did illegal or immoral things. A person can only change an organization for the better from the inside, and I believe there is enough good people in the 501st for me to stay in it and work to change it to make it better.

[glimadyne]

I am not bashing the entire 501st. This should be clear in my posts. I am making observations that has taken place recently that are quite disturbing in any light. The fact is that these actions look poorly on the entire group, no matter how you slice it. I know many in the 501st that are in it with the best intentions, but unfortunately the bad overshadows the good in most cases. I applaud your efforts and hope one day I can be a part of a "group", like the midwest, that is doing very cool stuff and genuinely helping others in the process. Until then, I will have to wait and see if the overall charter of the group goes through some sterlization process. I have a real job with its own politics. I didnt get involved in a "fun" hobby group to have to deal with more politics and antics. There are enough problems in life already. I have an iota of hope that the internal bickering and powermongering will come to an end. But I have to see it...

[TK725]

My posts on the egroup did all eventually appear. I will admit I might have gotten a bit paranoid. I did not think of the possibility of technical troubles with egroup and not the mod.

TK-725

[darthsean]

Does anyone know if it's true that Scott H. was arrested in Atlanta as a result of the raffle?

== Sean

[Helmschmied]

This seems like a good explanation:

"We show up places and help out, we make kids smile and laugh, we brings smiles to adults and bring back happy memories. Anytime we have ever been offered money for showing up we have asked them to donate it DIRECTLY to a local childrens charity. I don't want to sell or produce anything with our logo on it. The only thing we have is a club t-shirt that we wear before or after an event. "

I just hope those who seek to wield silly power among you all realize the futility of thier actions.

I also hope you all in the 501st realize I FULLY respect you all and would love to see a zillion stormtroopers at once.

Helm

[ShackMan]

Hey Jim,

You're not entirely stuck between a rock and a hard place. Move back to Texas. ;) We may not get together as often as the Colorado guys, but I've seen NONE of the above mentioned problems occur down here ... and you'd always have Plano Con. :)

ATM

[Army Scout]

Nobody was arrested for anything at DC!

Chris

[dualedge]

Helm: Yup...I know your gonna trash my essay...go ahead...Im open and would love to hear a good reason. BUT PLEASE, before you cut me up for any hypocracies Im sure I made here and there...LISTEN and DIGEST the KEY points Im making...I know Im not the only sci-fi fan with a love of costumes too who shares this point of view.

Helm, you don't know me very well do you? :)

Actually, your essay made your point much better than your initial post. I guess sometimes you've got to put your thoughts through the fire to get to the heart of the issue.

To be honest with you, I couldn't agree more so you'll forgive me if I don't trash your essay. When "leaders" - whether they be "Imperial XO's" or "medieval kings" let their egos get in the way and they start acting like they really are what they "play," I have just as much problem with that as you do. I think what I wanted to take to task on your original message was that it was a pretty broad and sweeping generalization that I don't believe was fair. I completely agree with you that when it gets to the point where reality and fantasy become blurred because of egos, things start sucking.

Personally, I don't think that is GENERALLY the case with the 501st... yet. I've seen Star Trek fan clubs in action and they have had rampant problems with that. So far I have not seen rampant instances of that in the 501st - particularly not in my local garrison.

I'm not out to crucify you, Helm. You have a valid point. I think it just needed some clarification.

Rob

[Helmschmied]

:)

[Azeem]

As the person that setup the current structure, I was very pissed at what was going on. I didn't go to DragonCon so I cannot comment on those events but I was at other events and saw similar things.

The Legion Commander is not above the Garrison Commanders and the troopers. They had enough and his removal is proof of their work.

Someone asked why the structure is setup like it is:

When you have 100+ people showing up to conventions, you need someone as a point of contact. When someone from BFE Idaho emails, you need to know who to contact for the events in the area.

I think the structure has proven itself to work and will be refined. The CO's will be fixing a lot of things and the 501st will return to the original image Albin had for the group.

For Glimadyne and the Colorado people: If you have a problem with the things in your Garrison, let Albin know everything. We are going to look at each Garrison and make sure nothing like this happens again anywhere.

[TheDisturbance]

Jim stated:
"So it has become hard for me to support a group that cheats, steals, and lies to and from itself."

Jim also stated:
"I know there are many members in the 501st, with many of them trying to do good.

However, you are judged by the company you keep..."

TK895,

Although it may seem the two statements contradict each other. I feel Jim really doesn't want to be a part of a group that seems to be stealing from other people and each other. I know for a fact Scott Hawkins is. Jim knows that there are still good people in the 501st. But it's hard to be a part of the 501st when the leader is a theif. Guilty by association. Some people are not that smart. 1st impressions make a big difference. Look at the whole situation through a child's eyes. They're pretty smart. They can tell when someone is stealing. Seeing money being siphoning. They are also naive. All they would see is a guy in a trooper outfit and make the guilty association that all the folks in trooper outfits are stealing. It may sound stupid, but you'd be surprised. Would you want that guilty association? I know Jim certainly doesn't. His previous comment didn't reflect that the best way, but his other posts have clearly stated to the point that he still believes there are good people in the 501st. It's just right now to say your a 501st member doesn't induce good thoughts. The image of the 501st is getting tarnished, because of a few select's bad mistakes. I'm sure if Jim reread that posts he would of worded it differently. I think he's just basically fed up with how the certain leaders have made the 501st crumble. Weather you like or not the 501st is a club/organization/small country. You are just stronger as a group if you have a good and honest leader. Or your group will crumble and you will have no organization.

tk895 response:
"Jim, I really wish you would stop grouping the entire 501st together with these unfortunate events. We had no idea what Scott was going to do at DragonCon. All I knew about was our fan table for letting the public know what we are about."

[TK1215]

Azeem,
Thanks for the words to the Colorado people!! I for one want to do some Trooping but with folks that are honest and true to there word.. For these reasons and more my Wife and I started the Poudre Valley Squad..
We are a little short on troopers but I think we will grow in time.. At the local Garrison level they tell us if we are not doing this or not doing that then we will be considered non active members... It's not that we don't want to troop at every event cause we do but some just don't want to with certain politics being involved.. This has to be one of the biggest reasons for us forming a Squad...

[darthsean]

Thanks for clearing up the facts about whether or not anyone was arrested at DragonCon. A friend of mine in the 501st forwarded this e-mail to me that would seem to explain how that rumor got started.

Not surprisingly, it involves a name familiar to many of us... Bob Bean.

Enjoy...

Edit: Incidentally, I find this particular aspect of the 501st meltdown to be particularly hilarious. Two con artists duking it out with one another over a supposedly charitable event... By all appearances, it looks to me like Bob Bean got upset because another con artist invaded his turf. Boob claiming to be a middle man for the Department of Justice is classic Bean. Him throwing in the stuff about being worried that SithVixen might get deported is just icing on the cake.

-----Original Message-----
From: mypopmail@yahoo.com [mailto:mypopmail@yahoo.com]
Sent: Friday, September 14, 2001 3:27 PM
To: 501st@yahoogroups.com
Subject: [501st] My 1st and Final post on DC2001 - READ IT


This might be long, so prepare now to read or you can simply ignore
it.

A raffle was being held at DC2001 during the entire con, with tickets
being sold at both tables. The proceeds (ie: monies beyond expenses)
were to go to Camp Heartland for Kids thru a representative of theirs.
A note was sent to all members on the DC PH dinner list before the
Con announcing this. The raffle and items for prizes (along with the
tattoos and business cards) were expenses paid for by myself and the
Camp Heartland rep. An aside benefit of the raffle was an
extended "PR" presence for the 501st Legion as a whole.

The tables were set and prizes were listed for attendees. Since we
had held a small raffle at AlphaCon and it went well, myself and Max
Bowden assumed there would be no "issues" with holding a raffle.
Also, many members of this group helped at the Fan table in selling
tickets. Up until Monday morning at 7AM, nothing was said to me about
it and it WAS discussed at BOTH Commander's meetings.

Let me now try to (as accurately as I can remember) describe the
events of Monday, starting with a 7AM call from Bob Bean and Jimmy
Burns. Please know in advance that the events below were witnessed by
myself, Max Bowden and Jay Moore. Numerous other's were involved, but
were not directly privy to the initial conversations.

7AM - I get a call from Bob Bean telling me to get up and awake, that
he and Jimmy were coming to the room to talk.
Shortly after, they arrive and I move the conversation (highlights
below) inside so Max and Jay could be a part of it.

Highlights of statements are below and are attributed to Bob and
Jimmy as best I can remember (although max or Jay may also chime in
after this post)

* Bob/Jimmy: We've been up ALL night (later described as 4-5 hours)
with a DOJ agent about this raffle.
* Bob/Jimmy: Unless you do what we've been told for you to do, we
have been made the middlemen here and we'll have to report you to the
authorities. (basically, they were telling us they had to be pleased
by our followthru on the situation or they'd be turning us in)
* Bob/Jimmy: Because of the printing on the flyers and they lack any
rules, ALL money has to go to charity with NO expenses pulled out.
* Bob/Jimmy: The agent is gone, she's in New York by now. (this was
when we asked them why we couldn't speak to her) She told us to make
sure this was done and she'll be talking to us to make sure.
(sometime later Monday this changed) We are here to make sure this
happens right.
* Bob: She (the agent) brought up INS issues and I am worried about
Kristen (SithVixen) If this doesn't happen right, she'll be deported.
* Bob: She (the agent) asked about copyright issues. (when I asked
him how long that was)...that's a whole other mess and maybe she
won't investigate that..that was about 1 hour worth of talk.
* Bob: Because this is being held in the 501st name, she told us the
whole mailing list of members could be prosecuted. Jimmy: For
racketeering.
* Bob: B/c this crosses states lines and you guys flew in, it's
federal.
* Bob/Jimmy: We need the names of everyone who sold a ticket and
their email address for this agent. We don't know who'll be contacted
or when. She may or may not investigate this, but she'll HAVE to
report it.

Those are the high points that I can remember right now.
Needless to say, Max, Jay and I..along with help from Doug Fesko
spent ALL day accounting for all ticket numbers and monies. We jumped
thru all hoops and made sure every requirement was met. The raffle
was held, all went well and we thought this was over.

Fast forward to later that night as Max, Jay and I sat in the room.
It didn't add up....

When we returned home, a 501st member had gotten the DOJ agents card
when she 1st approached the group.

We called her and guess what?

SHE HAD NO IDEA ABOUT ANY OF THIS....NONE.

Here's the truth: she approached to the group as a fan( and ticket
buyer) and when it was found out who she was, she was (and these are
her words) "PUMPED FOR INFORMATION ABOUT THEORETICAL LEGAL
SITUATIONS" BY BOB AND JIMMY. In fact, she was quite angry that her
name and office were used in this lie. She was (and still is) ready
to persue the 2 people involved.

To date, all involved and Albin have been trying to keep this quiet
and secure for the good of the Legion.
I still do not know WHY this lie was arranged. I DO know it has
screwed up 4-5 days of my life and many other hours with emails.
It has frightened many in this group and only served to undermine the
Legion's strength.
The costs for the raffle are below (slightly edited from my original
estimates sent to the involved parties)

printing 165
tatoos 641
work @ 2 people @ 30/day 240
(according to GA law and "reason")
armor 450
trip prize 700
playstation 2 300
table 588
total: 3084

Total tickets sold were $2572.75, so personal losses are $1084.

There have been NO allowances made for personal travel/hotel of con
fees.

We could have made more, but BOB/JIMMY told us: "You have to shut
down the tables, you shouldn't even be there, find someone else to
man them today"

There is certainly more, but at this point, the truth is out.

I have ALL emails on this between all parties and have saved
messsages from Bob Bean.

I am willing to involve my attorney and the DOJ agent to make sure
this stops NOW.

There was NO reason for this, as NO attendee had a question or
concern. I am sure the members working the fan table can also attest
to that statement. The ONLY people who persued this were Bob/Jimmy
and whomever they consorted with.

At this point, I wash my hands of this and pray that the Legion will
hold together. My doubts are raised though when members are still
being lied to (re: Derek Smith/Brandi Meese leaving) and the amount
of emails on the subject. I question whether I want to be part of a
group where this can happen and where I do not know anyone's
agenda/allegiances.

Please watch this board for updates and responses, I WILL NOT ANSWER
MAILS PERSONALLY until the truth is fully told and reponded to.

Regards-
Scott Hawkins

[dualedge]

TheDisturbance: Guilty by association. Some people are not that smart. 1st impressions make a big difference.

So then, what you are suggesting is that no one should ever associate with anyone that is questionable? There are plenty of questionable people where I work. There are plenty of questionable people in my city. There are plenty of questionable people in this nation and even in this world. Should I renounce humanity? Who here hasn't done something wrong in their life?

So what you appear to suggest is that working to improve the existing structure is not a good enough reason to stick with it. Is it better to throw up our hands and abandon it? Will that make it better? I couldn't disagree with this more.

Your message also insinuates that those of us that do want to improve the "club" are not "smart" because we disagree with you. Is that what you mean?

Rob

[MeetJohnDoe]

Here you go..... flame bait,

flame bait children,

tasty provocation served up to mindless harpies....

Gee, guilty by association, so by some folks line of reasoning, if someone in a group that you are loosely associated with does something that you did not sanction and that you did not participate in, then you are guilty too or you should quit being in the group.

So let us see......

Some members of the RPF have engaged in fraud, deception, lies, cheating, stealing, etc, etc, etc, not to mention being just general flame bait as***les.

Everyone who builds a replica of a copyrighted item for sale is guilty of copyright infringement, period, amen. Forgive me if I am wrong, I am not attorney. But I believe that this is the general reality of the situation.

This group supports the continued illegal activities of said sellers.

This group seems to delight in flaunting their illegal activities on an almost daily basis.

Groups members or associates have already been served with C&D's for work advertised, supported, and praised on the RPF.

Some RPF forum members get high and mightly and try to defend their continued illegal activites on a almost daily basis.

Let us face facts, if you are infringing on someone's copyright, you are a crook, a thief, no better that some ass**le who breaks your car window for and steals your radio.

I will admit that I too have built props, once or twice for money. I just don't pretend that it is not illegal and I know that I am choosing to break the law when I do so. It does not matter that the copyright holder is not building a similar item. So don't try to justify our actions or try pretend that what we do is morally or legally right.

Signed

Meet John Doe
Hi, to all of you Capra fans forgive me for taking his wonderful films name in vain.

[Army Scout]

MJB,
What in the hell does your post have to do with any of this?

Quit trolling and be a man, use your real name.

Chris

[DrStranglove]

Give up Army Scout. The Klan will never give their real name for fear we will know them for the cowards they are. Oh wait, add Bil Laden's group to my above statement. MJD might as well be in either group as he is the same sort of coward.

DrS
aka
John 24th MEU(SOC) 2nd Div-2nd Recon

http://groups.yahoo.com/group/DrStranglove/files/Jillians%20Girls/StacyCameraLove2.jpg
"There is a difference between pornography and art. Mostly it's in the price tag..." KerrAvon

[jt001]

You never get tired, do you, John Doe.

:rolleyes:



jt001

[TheDisturbance]

Dualedge,

"TheDisturbance: Guilty by association. Some people are not that smart. 1st impressions make a big difference."

You've taken my words out of context.

I'm just saying that if Scott Hawkins is conducting fraudulent activities and he is (was) the leader of the 501st, then members of the 501st will be guilty by association. I personally don't see it this way, but other folks who are not "smart" enough will see things differently. Especially impressionable kids. Children are smart and bright, but they are naive and impressionable.

I'm not saying members of the 501st are not smart. I'm saying that the general public/layman will probably see the 501st as crooks if the raffle at DragonCon goes south. Why? Because Scott Hakins ran it. I know people are human and make mistakes. Believe me I've made many in the past. Inlucding some that have been aired out on this board. I'm not saying everybody in the 501st is a crook. Scott Hawkins is giving the 501st a bad rap...period. I don't know what went on at Dragon Con, but sounds like someone is trying to stir up trouble for the 501st. My fight is with Scott. I'm glad he resigned. It will be good for the 501st as a whole to have a new leader. I don't want the 501st to crumble. I'm sorry if I wasn't clear on that.

I personally think the only improvement needed is a new honest leader. Everything will take care of itself after that.

Mark Cheng

[dualedge]

Thanks for clarifying that for me, Mark. I hate to misunderstand what someone saying.

Rob

[Darth Bart]

So...I guess, I won't be hearing back about my TK number huh? Well from now on I'm officially TK409 !! It was available and I'm claimng it! That's right...T-K-4-0-9 just like the cleanser. Thanks!!
Darth Bart is now TK409!

[TK1215]

WOW you must be TK409??? :)

[evanthx]

Since Scott's somewhat biased message made it on this board, I thought it only fair to post the response that was given on the 501st. Please note that nowhere in Scott's messages then or now does he deny that the illegality of his actions - he simply and repeatedly attacks Jimmy and Bob for telling him.

From Jimmy:

I've tried to stay away from this, I thought we had it straightened out until Scott and Max started attacking Bob and myself trying to place blame for what they did on us. My part in this has been very misrepresented by Scott and Max.. Scott's only response after DC to Bob and I was to state he thought we were lying and to threaten us with the following statement:

"* The raffle WAS improperly handled. It was not
authorized and we were ignorant of the policies/laws
involved. My research shows me that the offense is a
misdemeanor of aggravated nature if investigated. If
it IS turned in by Bob, Jimmy of both, I am ready to
testify about all I know and bring in witnesses
(including Con officials), the DOJ agent and
countersue with my own charges vs. Bob and Jimmy,
period. My attorney has all mails to date and will
soon have ALL info on this raffle if need be."

When Albin approached us about discussing the situation with DC, that was Scott's response, he never wrote another email about this until his shots here. He admitted it was improperly handled and he wanted Bob and I to apologize, why? He said that Sandsweet and Pat Henry had stopped by and said nothing so it must be ok. He said we said there would be an investigation. I will tell you right now that Scott asked directly if there was going to be an investigation and I told him I had no idea and that I really doubted it. I explained that what he needed to do was get everything in order so that if anyone did come to his or anyone else's door with questions, he would have all the documentation needed. If you can show the tickets, the matching money, the winners names and contact info, and where the money had been donated and who the charity is most likely no one would make a big deal about it. It was at worse, a crime of properly filed pa! perwork. The money should be donated because it was made to appear that people would be giving their money directly to a charity. That is how it was explained to me. That is what others have told me since. There were no rules on the fliers. No charity was named. No tax exempt company mentioned. To not donate the money would appear like some kind of scam had been run to pay for other things. The raffle had to stop as someone had pointed out a possible crime, we knew about it, we told those responsible about it. I would think you could argue good intent only if you don't know your are breaking a law. Once you know you are breaking a law and continue to do it, would that not be ... intent?

I was faced with being indirectly connected to this because someone had made a point to tell me I could be considered party to a crime if I knew one was going on within my group and I did nothing. Why should I be sued for simply reporting something? If there was no crime, it would be investigated and nothing would come of it. I'm concerned about Scott, Max, everyone that had anything to do with the raffle, how it would make the 501st look, who would be responsible and myself and in return for that I am threatened.

Many rumors started at and after DC, let me address a few. No one was arrested. No charges were filed. No computers were confiscated. No rooms were stormed. Alice Cooper did not perform a secret concert by the pool. The rumors about the party in room 1434 are true. (sorry had to lighten it up some) The point was made and emphasized that it appeared they might be in violation of the law and if we knew about it or participated, we could possibly get in trouble as well if someone started looking into it. Yes these were worst case senarios, but isn't that what you want to worry about? I wasn't selling tickets, but I knew people who were. Scott and Max got everything together and the raffle went off really well with a wonderful donation to charity. Relief for me. That relief was shattered when Scott and Max decided they no longer were going to donate all the money to a charity and that they were going to pay themselves b! ack for things and that they blamed us because they did not make more money. A family friend and retired police officer explained that it could be interpreted as theft by deception if it appeared the money was being donated to a charity, but instead was used for other purposes. At this time I decided to speak to a lawyer and I found out that unless I sold tickets and/or profited from it, I would not be held liable. I decided to drop it as it appeared to be Scott and Max's issue soley. I let them know this and made my peace with it.

Now Scott and Max want to blame this on Bob and myself to the group? Attack the messenger type thing. In order to help everyone understand the rules that were pointed out to us and the law we found backing this up, here is the law in question. It is the Georgia law regarding the proper way to handle a raffle. It also has the penalties for improperly handling one. Sorry it is kind of long, but please read it fully it will help you make your own decision about this.

*** CODE SECTION *** 08/27/01
16-12-22.1.

(a) It is the intention of the General Assembly that only nonprofit,
tax-exempt churches, schools, civic organizations, or related
support groups; nonprofit organizations qualified under Section
501(c) of the Internal Revenue Code, as amended; or bona fide
nonprofit organizations approved by the sheriff, which are properly
licensed pursuant to this Code section shall be allowed to operate
raffles.

(b) As used in this Code section, the term:

(1) "Nonprofit, tax-exempt organization" means churches, schools,
civic organizations, or related support groups; nonprofit
organizations qualified under Section 501(c) of the Internal
Revenue Code, as amended; or bona fide nonprofit organizations
approved by the sheriff.

(2) "Operate," "operated," or "operating" means the direction,
supervision, management, operation, control, or guidance of
activity.

(3) "Raffle" means any scheme or procedure whereby one or more
prizes are distributed by chance among persons who have paid or
promised consideration for a chance to win such prize. Such term
shall also include door prizes which are awarded to persons
attending meetings or activities provided that the cost of
admission to such meetings or activities does not exceed the usual
cost of similar activities where such prizes are not awarded.

(4) "Sheriff" means the sheriff of the county in which the
nonprofit tax-exempt organization is located.

(c) Any other law to the contrary notwithstanding, no nonprofit,
tax-exempt organization shall be permitted to operate a raffle until
the sheriff issues a license to the organization authorizing it to
do so. The license described in this subsection is in addition to
and not in lieu of any other licenses which may be required by this
state or any political subdivision thereof, and no raffle shall be
operated until such time as all requisite licenses have been
obtained. In the event a nonprofit, tax-exempt organization desires
to conduct a raffle in more than one county, such organization shall
not be required to obtain a license under this Code section in each
county in which such raffle is to be conducted and shall only be
required to obtain such license from the sheriff of the county in
which the state headquarters of such organization are located.

(d)(1) Any nonprofit, tax-exempt organization desiring to obtain a
license to operate raffles shall make application to the sheriff
on forms prescribed by the sheriff. The sheriff may require the
payment of an annual fee not to exceed $100.00. No license shall
be issued to any nonprofit, tax-exempt organization unless the
organization has been in existence for 24 months immediately prior
to the issuance of the license. The license will expire at 12:00
Midnight on December 31 following the granting of the license.
Renewal applications for each calendar year shall be filed with
the sheriff prior to January 1 of each year and shall be on a form
prescribed by the sheriff.

(2) Each application for a license and each application for
renewal of a license shall contain the following information:

(A) The name and home address of the applicant and, if the
applicant is a corporation, association, or other similar legal
entity, the names and home addresses of each of the officers of
the organization as well as the names and addresses of the
directors, or other persons similarly situated, of the
organization;

(B) The names and home addresses of each of the persons who will
be operating, advertising, or promoting the raffle;

(C) The names and home addresses of any persons, organizations,
or other legal entities that will act as surety for the
applicant or to which the applicant is financially indebted or
to which any financial obligation is owed by the applicant;

(D) A determination letter from the Internal Revenue Service
certifying that the applicant is an organization exempt under
federal tax law;

(E) A determination letter from the Georgia Department of
Revenue certifying that the applicant is exempt under the tax
laws of this state;

(F) The location at which the applicant will conduct the raffles
and, if the premises on which the raffles are to be conducted is
to be leased, a copy of the lease or rental agreement; and

(G) A statement showing the convictions, if any, for criminal
offenses other than minor traffic offenses of each of the
persons listed in subparagraphs (A), (B), and (C) of this
paragraph.

(3) The sheriff shall refuse to grant a raffle license to any
applicant who fails to provide fully the information required by
this Code section.

(4) When a nonprofit, tax-exempt organization which operates or
intends to operate raffles for residents and patients of a
retirement home, nursing home, or hospital operated by that
organization at which gross receipts are or will be limited to
$100.00 or less during each raffle and pays or will pay prizes
having a value of $100.00 or less during each raffle, then,
notwithstanding any other provision of this Code section or any
rule or regulation promulgated by the sheriff pursuant to the
provisions of subsection (l) of this Code section, neither the
applicant nor any of the persons whose names and addresses are
required under subparagraphs (A) and (B) of paragraph (1) of this
subsection shall be required to submit or provide fingerprints or
photographs as a condition of being granted a license.

(e)(1) The sheriff shall have the specific authority to suspend or
revoke any license for any violation of this Code section. Any
licensee accused of violating any provision of this Code section
shall be entitled, unless waived, to a hearing on the matter of
the alleged violation conducted in accordance with Chapter 13 of
Title 50, the "Georgia Administrative Procedure Act."

(2) By making application for a license under this Code section,
every applicant consents that the sheriff, as well as any of his
agents, together with any prosecuting attorney, as well as any of
his agents, may come upon the premises of any licensee or upon any
premises on which any licensee is conducting a raffle for the
purpose of examining the accounts and records of the licensee to
determine if a violation of this Code section has occurred.

(f) The sheriff shall, upon the request of any prosecuting attorney
or such prosecuting attorney's designee, certify the status of any
organization as to that organization's exemption from payment of
state income taxes as a nonprofit organization. The sheriff shall
also upon request issue a certificate indicating whether any
particular organization holds a currently valid license to operate a
raffle. Such certificates properly executed shall be admissible in
evidence in any prosecution, and Code Section 48-7-60, relative to
the disclosure of income tax information, shall not apply to the
furnishing of such certificate.

(g) Notwithstanding the other provisions of this Code section, the
sheriff, upon receiving written evidence of the bona fide nonprofit,
tax-exempt status of the applicant organization, shall be authorized
to issue a special limited license to a nonprofit, tax-exempt
organization which will allow it to operate up to three raffles
during a calendar year. In such cases, the sheriff shall waive the
application and license fee provided for in subsection (d) of this
Code section and the annual report provided for in subsection (j) of
this Code section.

(h) Raffles shall be operated only on premises owned by the
nonprofit, tax-exempt organization operating the raffle, on property
leased by the nonprofit, tax-exempt organization and used regularly
by that organization for purposes other than the operation of a
raffle, or on property leased by the nonprofit, tax-exempt
organization operating the raffle from another nonprofit, tax-exempt
organization.

(i) No person under the age of 18 years shall be permitted to play
any raffle conducted pursuant to any license issued under this Code
section unless accompanied by an adult.

(j) On or before April 15 of each year, every nonprofit, tax-exempt
organization engaged in operating raffles shall file with the
sheriff a report disclosing all receipts and expenditures relating
to the operation of raffles in the previous year. The report shall
be in addition to all other reports required by law. The report
shall be prepared and signed by a certified or registered public
accountant competent to prepare such a report and shall be deemed a
public record subject to public inspection.

(k)(1) A licensee that conducts or operates a raffle shall
maintain the following records for at least three years from the
date on which the raffle is conducted:

(A) An itemized list of the gross receipts for each raffle;

(B) An itemized list of all expenses other than prizes that are
incurred in the conducting of the raffle as well as the name of
each person to whom the expenses are paid and a receipt for all
of the expenses;
(C) A list of all prizes awarded during the raffle and the name
and address of all persons who are winners of prizes of $50.00
or more in value;

(D) An itemized list of the recipients other than the licensee
of the proceeds of the raffle, including the name and address of
each recipient to whom such funds are distributed; and

(E) A record of the number of persons who participate in any
raffle conducted by the licensee.

(2) A licensee shall:

(A) Own all the equipment used to conduct a raffle or lease such
equipment from an organization that is also licensed to conduct
a raffle;

(B) Display its raffle license conspicuously at the location
where the raffle is conducted;

(C) Conduct raffles only as specified in the licensee's
application; and

(D) Not conduct more than one raffle during any one calendar
day.

(3) No nonprofit, tax-exempt organization shall enter into any
contract with any individual, firm, association, or corporation to
have such individual, firm, association, or corporation operate
raffles or concessions on behalf of the nonprofit, tax-exempt
organization.

(4) A nonprofit, tax-exempt organization shall not lend its name
nor allow its identity to be used by any individual, firm,
association, or corporation in the operating or advertising of a
raffle in which said nonprofit, tax-exempt organization is not
directly and solely operating the raffle.

(5) No person shall pay consulting fees to any person for any
services performed in relation to the operation or conduct of a
raffle.

(6) A person who is a member of more than one nonprofit,
tax-exempt organization shall be permitted to participate in the
raffle operations of only two organizations of which such person
is a member; provided, however, that such person shall not receive
more than $30.00 per day for assisting in the conduct of raffles
regardless of whether such person assists both organizations in
the same day.

(l) The sheriff is authorized to promulgate rules and regulations
which the sheriff deems necessary for the proper administration and
enforcement of this Code section which are not in conflict with any
provision of this Code section.

(m) Any person who operates a raffle without a valid license issued
by the sheriff as provided in this Code section commits the offense
of commercial gambling as defined in Code Section 16-12-22 and, upon
conviction thereof, shall be punished accordingly. Any person who
knowingly aids, abets, or otherwise assists in the operation of a
raffle for which a license has not been obtained as provided in this
Code section similarly commits the offense of commercial gambling.
Any person who violates any other provision of this Code section
shall be guilty of a misdemeanor of a high and aggravated nature.
Any person who commits any such violation after having previously
been convicted of any violations of this Code section shall be
guilty of a felony and, upon conviction thereof, shall be punished
by imprisonment for not less than one nor more than five years or by
a fine not to exceed $10,000.00, or both.








Here are some questions I have about this whole situation. They are questions, not accusations. But if you are claiming this raffle was legitimate you should easily be able to answer these.
Are we a nonprofit church? Are we a school? Are we a civic organization? If we are any of the above are we then a support group, nonprofit organization qualified under Section 501(c) of the Internal Revenue Code? I.R.S., does someone have to pay taxes on the money collected if we are not a tax exempt group? Do we have an I.R.S. number, exempt or not? Can a group be held responsible if part of that group uses the group name to raise money? What if we donate all the money? Could that be a tax write off for the donator? If someone keeps most of the money to pay themselves back, do they have to pay taxes? Are we a bona fide nonprofit organization approved by the sheriff? If so, did the sheriff issue a license to you to carry on a raffle?

(4) A nonprofit, tax-exempt organization shall not lend its name
nor allow its identity to be used by any individual, firm,
association, or corporation in the operating or advertising of a
raffle in which said nonprofit, tax-exempt organization is not
directly and solely operating the raffle.

Look At My Films did not come into the discussion until days after DC. If Look At My Films is the tax free organization, why were they not running the raffle? Who or what is Look At My Films? How do we contact them? Why is the money not going to them to pay for prizes, the table, tattoos? Why were there no postings stating it was their raffle? Why did the booth being paid for out of the raffle money have a big 501st banner over it? If you guys don't work for Look At My Films, then isn't claiming them as the runners actually violating the part about "shall not lend its name nor allow its identity to be used" part of the law? How can you pay yourselves $30 a day for working for a charity if you don't work for the charity you say was responsible? What about the others that worked and sold tickets at the fan table? Is it morally right to pay yourself for charity work?

Oh, note: Max was the first to point out that the law above said the offenses were for second time offenders. He is correct, but prior to that it explains what operating an invalid raffle can result in. Please see section:

m) Any person who operates a raffle without a valid license issued
by the sheriff as provided in this Code section commits the offense
of commercial gambling as defined in Code Section 16-12-22 and, upon
conviction thereof, shall be punished accordingly

Just for your information here is the penalty section for commercial gambling as defined by Code Section 16-12-22 of the Georgia law:

"(b) A person who commits the offense of commercial gambling shall be
guilty of a felony and, upon conviction thereof, shall be punished
by imprisonment for not less than one nor more than five years or by
a fine not to exceed $20,000.00, or both."

These questions based on the law were the foundation for the questions we were asked and asked ourselves at DC. When someone says it could get people in trouble, I want to know what that means so I ask questions. Just like Scott and Max, we were not aware of these laws prior to the discussion. Reading the law later made it even more clear. If you violated all these rules why would you try to pass the blame to Bob and I for pointing them out once we were made aware of them? How can you try to blame us after the fact when we found that we were in the right for bring this up in order to protect everyone involved? Your potentionally hurting a group we feel strongly about, we defended it. I have never questioned your intent to raise some money for a charity, we questioned your doing it improperly. We wanted audits to protect ourselves, you guys, and those that helped. I have been threatened with suit if I notified the police o! f a crime. All of this for trying to warn someone about the trouble that could possibly come from this. I've told them repeatly I was worried about them. I honestly feel that I explained very well that this was what could happen and you guys needed to be prepared for it. I'm sorry about all the rumors that came out of this making it sound so much worse, but I had nothing to do with those. I did not discuss this with anyone. The only thing I did do was dispel any rumors I heard.

I have keep this to myself as I thought we had resolved any questions and my council told me that I could not be held accountable for their actions. Max had said that he was trying to find the best way to balance paying himself back for the amount of money he put into this. He didn't want to work nights to pay off the debt, I could understand that. I didn't want that for him either. I found I couldn't be held responsible so I decided I was done, I was happy that Scott and Max were looking out for themselves and admitting they knew they messed up and were doing what they needed to handle things. Everything was cool, I wrote repeatedly I was done with it. More power to them. It was not until Scott and Max came here trying to make it look like I was a trouble maker that I chose to respond. Threats to send emails out to the group do not scare me as they will show how I have repeatedly stated I will not be responsible for their pote! ntial wrong doing and that my concern was for them, the group, as well as myself. The 501st is important to me, it has become a part of my life and I have made many friends as a part of it. I have no reason to want to cause problems for anyone. Heck, Scott invited me to join at DC2000 I have stood behind him on the RPF boards in reguards to his Indy situation, pointing out that it should have nothing to do with his leading the 501st. I was very sorry to find that I could so quickly be turned into a scapegoat by him.

P.S. My recommendation to you all, next time someone says that someone you know is possibly doing something that could get himself and others in trouble with the law, go directly to the cops. Let them deal with it and find out if it is a crime or not. There is no crime in asking a question. Don't try to help them or they might try to turn it around on you. Sorry I cared enough to try to make it right without involving the law. I've learned my lesson well.

[evanthx]

That was long, sorry, and it's all I'm going to post. To repeat, those weren't my words, just wanted to have both sides viewpoint up instead of just one side.

I've been duking this fight out on the 501st, I don't intend to duke it out again here, so forgive me if I let it rest at this.

[DrStranglove]

Damn that must be the longest post i have ever seen!!!!


DrS

[evanthx]

Do I get a prize?! Whoo-hoo!

[theatrix]

A seriously l...o...n...g post, but if you are going to include regs/laws it can get wordy. I guess what gets me is that I was costuming/building props long before I associated myself with the 501st. I have noticed that over the years, various costuming associations have all come and gone, but I am still chugging along building costumes/props for my own amusement/"ego boost" by wearing them at conventions.

I have some stuff I would like to get off my chest, I don't have anyone's posts in mind specifically, just the general "bash folks" who happen to be in the same group posts that seem to keep poping up. Thanks.

***** Theatrix's Two Cents Mode On *****

I built my first costume in 1973/74, my first Star Wars costume in 1977 (about 1 month after I saw the movie). The first SW costume was a sad psuedo Vader costume with a hocky mask (painted flat black) with mirrored sunglasses glue in the eye sockets. I made a hooded cape and made chest and belt boxes out of cassette tapes. I then made light sabers out of flashlights, golf club tubes, a cast resin tip, and a bit of gel (for color) at local conventions for $5.00.

Where am I going with this, well... Some folks have made comments about being in the 501st being some sort of military wanna-be fest. I take a bit of exception to that generalization, I spent over 8 years on Active Duty, Active Reserves, and Inactive Reserves in the U.S. Army (E-6, 11B3X). I had real rank and real responsibilities. When I got out of the service, I did not want to repeat it in my civilian life. Do some folks "get off" on using military ranks, perhaps...

So, I have a Stormtrooper costume (and Vader, Imperial Officer, Imperial Guard), does that mean I am some sort of Jack booted thug, NO. I also have several Jedi outfits. Does that mean that I believe that I have some mystical powers flowing for all encompassing source, Of course not. I am also in the SCA (the medieval group that Helm.. (sp?) alluded to earlier. In that group, I have clothing and armor for an Anglo-Norman man at arms. Does this mean that I want to persecute the "Infidels" in the holy land, NO. When I was on active duty in the early 80's, I was in a WWII British Infantry re-enactment group. Does this mean I love bangers and mash and stout as my only style of food, NO.

Do I think that things could have been handled better by certain members of the 501st, yup. Do I believe that a change in the upper levels would be beneficial, yup. Do I think that I should lump over 300 people in with one or two unfortunates, Nope.

Come on guys, some folks on the board have really messed up. Do I hold that against anybody else here, No. People are responsible for their own actions. I try to hold the person who did it to account, not every Tom, Dick and Harry that happens to come along.

So now my big pitch....

I realize that some folks here have some well founded issues with certain members of the 501st. Can we please try to remember not to take shots at us general members just because the folks you are mad at normally don't come here?

Thanks everybody for listing.

Theatrix
TK-1066
Old prop dude

***** Theatrix's Two Cents Mode Off *****

[oohyeah88]

Wow, that post was so long I spent 5 minutes just scrolling down!! :D

What I want to know is what exactly happened in Room 1434?
:p

[Helmschmied]

Theatrix,

Well put essay. What kingdom/state are you in?

Helm

[theatrix]

Helmschmied,

In answer to your question, I am in the Kingdom of Caid, Barony of Gyldenholt. I am squired to Duke Sir Dietrich von Vogelsang, Baron of Gyldenholt. I am also the Baronial A&S Officer and run the a pewtering group (hence my posts on low temp metal casting). My SCA name is Guillaume de St. Michel. I also am the commander of the local shield wall (we are small, but happy).

Where are you located?

Theatrix
aka TK-1066
aka Guillaume
aka Tim in CA
aka
aka
aka I so confused....

[Helmschmied]

Theatrix,
they used to call me Brawny...(I think my size had something to do with that, lol)...I fought with the Kinderfodder out of Reston Va...we were the bad boys of yesteryear until we realized that acting like jackasses and still fighting top notch werent mutually related ;) ..most guys have moved on, have kids, careers..we all fought for over 12 years, most of us starting at about 14-16 in highschool (yup we still fought at Pennsic, most of us clocked in over 10 Pennsics). Geesh I miss the old days. We still get together once in a while, laugh about the water ballons shot over Coopers Lake and the no-brass hat rule in camp. We had our knightly friends, Jo Han of the Outlands being our favorite king...he knew how to have a good time without lording it over on everyone. We camped up in the trees, terraforming the earth and builing platforms out of the trees, onto which we put up tents...Ewok city man...the coolest way to spend ones youth!
Helm

[glimadyne]

Azeem: Thanks for the heads up. I will be sure to contact Albin.

Evanthx: You have some very good questions. I hope you get the answers...

Theatrix: This thread was not created to bash or lump everyone in the 501st as one collective. As I stated, it is easy to classify an entire organization through the actions of a few high profile individuals. Their actions makes the organization look bad, but it does not mean all individuals in the organization are bad. A subtle difference. I already made it clear that it is not my stance that everyone in the 501st is a bad person. That is a fairly narrow minded view. I am simply trying to sift out the truth from all the muck....

[0neiros]

Ok, I take it back...This is WORSE than a Trek club situation. OY. I Hope you guys make it out of the woods, and get back to having fun, because that's what it's supposed to be about. At least when someone got too High and Mighty, we could look at them and say-"Shut Up Wesley."

[darth genius]

"printing 165
tatoos 641
work @ 2 people @ 30/day 240
(according to GA law and "reason")
armor 450
trip prize 700
playstation 2 300
table 588
total: 3084

Total tickets sold were $2572.75, so personal losses are $1084."

Am I the only one who noticed that $3084 - $2572.75 DOESN'T equal $1,084?

And what's with these bogus expenses? It it was a charity, why wasn't the table fee donated? Or the Armor? Or the time? Or everything for that matter?

And to suggest that the raffle should have in some way compensated him for his room and meals is laughable to the point of absurdity.

He was at the con to enjoy himself and would have attended regardless of a raffle or not. To expect to extract charitable funds to repay him for that smacks of dishonesty so profound as to be almost unimaginable.

But with Scott, it's par for the course.

Reap the whirlwind, you piece of sh!t

[Sapper36]

I don't think every member of the 501st is guilty by association. However there are members of the 501st who've been aware of Scott's misdeeds for a long time and failed too take any action. They tolerated it. They sat on their hands & let Scott trash the organization with the excuse "He's in charge -- we don't have anything to do with it" People have a little guts & throw the rascal out without waiting for him to resign. When you are compacent you make yourselves his accomplices. My .02 cents. Let the Flames begin!

TPK

[Jedirick]

I am not a member of the 501. I have had the pleasure of working with Albin on a SW project. I also recently met close to 100 members of the 501 and was greatly impressed by their camaderie.

I think that the more distance the 501 put between themselves and the Hawkins scenario the better. Members of this board can help.Many members were not aware of any problem until very recently. Let us all realize that the 501 is linked only through the internet and an occassional optional convention get together. Trying to organize and operate the 501 in this manner is like trying to get everyone here to validate one complete authentic prop design. All of Ezboard does not have enough space to handle that process:)

Those of us not directly involved with the 501 need to ease off the 501. IMO if you have issue with Hawkins, seek him out not the 501. Do the good guys in the 501 a favor and give them sometime to regroup. None of us achieve any credibility through further criticism of their organization.

The 501 was founded by SW fans who strongly embraced the myth and magic. Whether we be a SW toynerd, a SW propnut, or a SW roleplaying geek we have to acknowledge that the 501 has been able to take a part of Star Wars Saga and bring it into real time. No small accomplishment. This is the same thing we do in smaller scale when we build a prop, attain a collectible, or take the part in gaming. Any dissension among SW fans reflects on all aspects of SW fandom.

Success is never achieved without sacrifice. This experience will make the 501 a better organization and I for one, applaud the efforts of those who took action. If any of you ever entertained joining the 501 now is the time to join their ranks in support.

[Sapper36]

I have no problem with the 501st as an organization or nearly all the members as individuals, but the fact remains that your organizations image has been severely tarnished by tolerating the actions of Scott Hawkins and taking no action to rein him in. In effect he did all these things with the groups tacit approval. I have been attacked by 501st members on this board for daring to criticize the grand poobah Hawkins. I'm glad to see the cancer finally cut out, but you guys may still take a while to recover. I hope for the best for the 501st. I love seeing you in your armor at events & I think the idea of going to hospitals & raising money for charity is great, I do the same thing in my own way. Best of luck to all the troopers, just try to police your own ranks a little better please. Thanks

[evanthx]

One thing for the 501st - take Guy Raz here. Some folks hated him, some folks loved him. People that critized him sometimes got attacked by the folks that loved him. In other words, I can see a corollary between him and Scott.

What I'm trying to point out (and probably doing poorly) is that this board is guilty of exactly what you accuse the 501st of doing. Guy didn't get immediately kicked out, did he? He didn't do anything with the board (and jhypen's) tacit approval, did he? Neither did Scott. Just because someone doesn't like the person in question doesn't mean they should be automatically kicked out, nor does the fact that not everyone spent every moment railing against Guy or Scott mean that they support Guy or Scott.

Note for Guy's friends - I'm not trying to say anything about Guy, just the situation he found himself in on this board, and how that situation parallel's Scott's situation.

Secondly, Scott was an appointed leader, there was no way to remove him, there were no elections, he's the only moderator of the 501st's yahoo group. You seem to think we could just casually change all that...trust me, we couldn't.

All I'm trying to say there is that because YOU didn't like Scott early on, you got upset that the 501st didn't agree with you right away and take action. Be reasonable. I'm pretty active on that group and read this board a lot and until about six months ago I didn't know there was really even an issue. And the first time I read about something secondhand with no way to tell which side is telling the truth, I tend NOT to jump to action. I think the 501st behaved pretty well, all in all.

[gw2tulsa]

Or, one could argue that members of the 501st chose to bury their heads in the sand and ignore all the potential warning signs concerning Hawkins.

If thats the case then perhaps the 501st - or at least the members that refused to believe Scott could do no wrong - deserved the current sitituation.

I know plenty of good people in the different 501st groups and IMHO they are better people than Scott (as I'm sure the majority of members are). Sadly Scott never got in too much trouble because he is a first rate BS'er and can talk his way out of nearly any situation. Only when things got THIS BAD could people in positions of any real authority thoughout the 501st do something about it...

My first bit of advice would be to stop the current yahoo E-group and start anew WITHOUT Scott having the ability to edit/censor at his own whim.

-Gary Weaver II

[Jedirick]

Though am not a member of the 501, I have agonized over what they have recently suffered. I had the opportunity to work with Albin on a SW project a few months ago and was very impressed with his character and enthusiasm. Recently I had the good fortune to meet about 100 of the members of the 501. The camaderie shared between these SW fans was inspiring.

The exit of Hawkins as commander was a painful process for those who undertook that responsibility. IMO it is more than appropriate to wish the 501 a solid future and pursue any issues with Scott Hawkins separately. Time to leave the 501 alone!

All SW fans, whether we be collector nerds, prop nuts, or gaming nerds, must realize that the 501 is a group of fans that have taken some of the Magic and Myth and brought it to real time. This is the samething we all try in acquiring SW memoribilia, displaying a SW prop, or SW roleplaying.

The 501 is a loosely knit organization totally dependent on the internet for structure. Other than the occassional convention seldom are more than a handful together at any one place or time. To hold the 501 to some higher organizational expectation is the same as declaring this board responsible for all member's actions. All of Ezboard does not have space for the rationalization and justification posting for that.:) Heck, we can't even get everyone to agree on the validation of authentic prop details much less organize a "live" attendee function.

IMO further criticism of the 501 by non members contributes nothing positive, further denegrating SW fandom. Let us give the 501 a rest and allow them to mend and grow. Success is never achieved without sacrifice. The 501 shall prevail.