Conquest/planetary acquisition ~ Realism discussion.

[Ogre Mal Pannis]

A trend I see growing over the past few weeks, which I and a person or two I’ve talked to off the boards, find disconcerting and not very realistic, especially for the smaller groups, is the fact that a single group is running about 3 or 4 planetary conquests/acquisition threads, all at the same time.

Shouldn’t such threads be one at a time, or maybe even two, if it is done realistically? I mean, how possible is it for a single small group, to be in three or four places all at the same time, when there manpower and assets aren't all that high in number? Is this anything more than an eager attempt to make up for those inadequacies in an impatient manner? Is this good roleplay?

I see this as nothing more than greed and poor RP. Not following any type of timeline structure is a bad way to do things in my opinion, and should be curbed, voided, or at least taken into consideration. I would like to see more quality RP and less greed and power mongering.

[PraetoriteYominCarr]

This is starting to get somewhat annoying. I see people bring up problems all the time, and people shoot down or forget new ideas for rules.

But as long as you're talking about the Vong, I might as well participate. Who's to say someone doesn't have the manpower or the structure? We've been around nearly half a year, have enough members to classify us as a 'group', and noone is participating in more than one of these threads.

There are DOZENS of issues that need to be handled. People skirt these feeble rules constantly, there's no timeline for our forums, and there're more loopholes than there are people. I'll say it again. We need a Game Master.

[Ogre Mal Pannis]

Actually, this wasn't intended to be directed at the Vong specifically, but seeing as how you have claimed it is then it seems you know you were doing something not so terribly realistic.

A gamemaster isn't going to solve the problems you speak of, responsible roleplayers who use common sense and fair-play are. I am merely trying to point out something that I consider as not an example of fairplay.

[PraetoriteYominCarr]

Please don't warp what I say.

[Force Master Hunter]

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A gamemaster isn't going to solve the problems you speak of, responsible roleplayers who use common sense and fair-play are. I am merely trying to point out something that I consider as not an example of fairplay.
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A bloody-men to that. There's nothing - NOTHING that cant be solved with a good dose of common sense and fair play. It's the only rule needed.

[Jedah Lynch]

There are dozens of issues.

This is one of them.

Quality of taking over a planet/sectors

If not exactly how such small groups could possible maintain a war machine that takes over several planets almost back to back or at the same time in a realistic manner.

Freaky no?

On the issue of a gamemaster? Aint going to happen, few would wait for a game master to render verdicts in every event and even then even fewer would be trusted to be fair in such matters. It would be more problems then it was worth.

If TSE was to follow how some groups are proceeding then with its share fleet and numbers a vast portion of the planets in the SW universe could be taken over in a matter of weeks if not far sooner. Especially if the group members were thinned out to take over several planets at once or in a single day.

To say the least that wont be done. Certainly would not be fair, it would be simply god moding to the point of unbelievablitiy that defies any and all concecpt of realism that might exist in an RP inhabited universe. Instead quality is what we're focusing on as seen in one thread in which many members of the group are particapating in and enjoying as well.

Know many of the smaller and newer groups want to be in a good position but so far it could be better done with how they are proceeding.

[Keerrourri Sarrtarroa]

I've tried to stray away from that planet-hopping trend that many other groups engage in. The Cizerack simply are not designed for planetary conquest. We have only 25 ships capable of hyperspace travel, and most of those are busy with trade. While I will engage in many convoys to different places at once, I have never sent a group of more than 8 ships to any place outside of my home territory...simply because I know such a thing is not feasable. If we were to get into a conflict with a fleet faction....it would tax our resources to the breaking point, and really would be almost impossible for us to take on any reasonably-sized force.

That is exactly what I wanted to create. A SMALL trading faction, that wasn't all about conquest.

[Jeseth Cloak]

It should be brought into the foreground here: Not all these threads take place at the same time. I can see why with Fleets it would be more difficult to predict what will happen next, but I'm fairly certain there's nothing against starting 10 RPs at a time if you can place them all in different points of a timeline.

[Rama Sha]

But that wouls simply be using an Rp loop hole to get out of trouble. Which happens ALOT! If some one can put a what if and then a rule that can twisted and turned to fit that then they are home free and can run wild doing whatever they please. Thats just not right.

[Reysa Sashara]

Ok, since we have 3 going now i guess you direct this to us also, ive actrally looked at it and thought about it, the 3rd one we have put up was cancelled , but our Darvin 5 and Nkklon one (most important ones) are still going, but we do actrally have enough fleet and troops TO take over 2 and even 3 at a time, but as you say its proboly not realistic therefore i have cancelled the 3rd one even before you posted this.But as you can see we ar'nt realy a small force anymore, we have actrally grown to be quite meduim sized in 2 months.

The time thing i do not agree with, the Via have split there fleets into task forces, A,B,C, then we have a patrol group for eatch planet, at the moment sections A through to B are taking planets, C is in a defencive position over "Ambria" (our hom planet) so as you can see we dont use time diffrences attal we play like RL ppl would..

http://www16.brinkster.com/nuime/others/reysa_sashara.JPG

[Force Master Hunter]

In Whatever time period you set them in or you place them, my personal opinion is conducting triple planetary takeovers at the one time is neither fair play or common sense and your going to have to present a good case to convince me otherwise.

Ever noticed that for general RP there is onyl the Holy Trinity of Rules (No Killing, No maiming, no God Mode) and yet for fleets there is constant argument and rule discussions? Now why is that? Again in my opinion is that in general RP, Fair Play and Common Sense is applied to a great extent and its the essence of the three immutible laws. There has never been need for more general RP rules and I dont see that changing as I cant think of many people who are thinking there is need of anything else. The present system works and works well.

* Following is personal opinion only *

Except with fleets because in the majority of cases, there is bugger all common sense and fair play applied! I can only think of a handful of times a fleet RP and / or planet takeover has been done well and guess what they all had - common sense and fair play, plus an attitude of participation and enjoyment! Fleeting continues to have a stigma around here due to those factors. Until there is common sense and fair play applied, fleeting will continue to leave a bad taste in plenty of people's mouths. Common sense says there is resource limits. Fair play says there cant be 500 capital ships in an attack group Common sense says there is only so much that can be done. Fair play says there is only so much territory a group can hold before governing becomes just about impossible. Ever thought what type of bearucacy you need to govern a planet, let alone systems or sectors? How much money that costs? You would need even more resources to allow your populations to surivive, let alone spare some for a fighting force. I live in a town that has an airbase that has about 500 fight officers. There is 8000 support staff for 40 transport craft, both enlisted and civilian. And that is a tiny base, imagine what it is to support a major base. Given say 100 fighters on an aircraft carrier, how many people on that boat are pure support for those planes? And how mnay support them? And so on? How many people at Pearl Harbour are directly employed supporting the base there? I could go on and some say I do. But my point remains. You have say 100 capital craft.... what type of population would you need to support them? A damn sight more than anyone is taking into accout. Just one - one Super Star Destoryer would be trying for a planet to support, let alone fleets of them. unless your prepared to allow your populations to starve as they are stripped of resources and then common sense says they would rise up and kick you out.

it's just insane to think you can pile ship upon ship upon ship and planet on planet on planet and think that's the way it should be. Hell, in the Old Republic they had an entire PLANET of countless billions devoted to government, plus who knows how many more at local levels. And even then it wasn't done well and it was no-where near the full galaxy.

Again, I stress this is a personal opinion only

* End personal opinion *

As a SWFans Admin, I believe the present fleet threads are within the rules. Some as highlighed however are not in the spirit of them. I would point to a planetary takeover TSE are doing that would be good to use as an examle of how to could be done right and I would say as a random thought that 25 posts may be too short for a full takeover to be declared valid.

[Darth Varlon]

I can see where the problem of loopholes comes in if one of the threads is an attack by a fleet being used in another. But if they're all different fleets, I can't really see any problem unless someone forgets that fleet A is out attacking planet B while group C attacks group D, whom has fleet A as defense somehow while its off on an assault.

[Reysa Sashara]

yes agreed, actrally FHM, and we are currently working on the Warriors and transports so we can garrison the planet, they should be finished by the time we finish the take overs, we have agreed to stop after these 2 planets anyway so that we can grow our resorces back, BUT like i said the 3rd planet take over "Dominaria" was done without my permission by a new guy to our group *O_o* so that one dose not count..we currently have 2 going and we are gearing out to garrion them also, so we are worked by your thread anyway FMH, BUT i do stress both VALID takovers are both over 25 posts and still going...


and could someone delete the 3rd take over please"Dominaria" (NOT the Darvin 5 or Nkllon threads tho) thanks

[Khendon S]

I could say so much on this topic, but, unless you actually have fleet rped against another human, you wouldn’t give it much thought or understand it much… Fleet rping is so complex, because war is so complex.

[Lucious Zaarin]

War isn't so simple, FMH. Two rules won't work, as we all have different views about fair play and common sense.

[Force Master Hunter]

Again in my opinion, there are the options regarding fleets.

a) You invent a rule book covering every facet and contingency, examine all the loopholes and lock them down.

That would suck and would take a great deal of time. I dont know about you, but I come here to have fun. You forget, war this is not. Fun and games this is and in my experience, you need only a minimum of rules if you apply common sense and fair play. Why is it we only have the three General rules? Becuase that all most people really want, they make sense and they dont inhibit any RP except for God Moding, Character Killing and Maiming (except with permission from the other player), which all suck anyway.

b) With the realisation that this is all supposed to be fun and a game, throw out the rules and insist on common sense and fair play. It works in general RP, I see no reason why it cant work elsewhere. Saying that there is differences in views in common sense and fair play - but not by much. It works well and I dont see why it cant be applied more to fleet RP.

[Darth Viscera]

Alas, common sense and fair play are rare commodities around these parts, and thus they cannot be expected from the average RPer. To do so is only inviting further dissapointment and arguments. Therefore, we should elect a roleplayer who the majority acknowledge to be fair and knowledgable about fleets, and he should moderate fleet threads and such.

It may not be actual war, but as the RP progresses, the simulation becomes far more similar. As a law of nature, a battle involving millions of beings shall be far more complex than a two-person hand to hand combat.

[Lucious Zaarin]

Amen! A Game Master.

[Firebird1]

This is freeking stupid. If you could try and take over a planet with even the largest fleet possible you would not be able to do it if realism was set in place. Why you ask? Simple 1) Every group or planet governing body would know it was comming way in advance because of intellegence/counter intellegence would find out about the fleet buildup.
2) The Fact that you would have to build up your fleet before hand would cause many groups to take intrust in your future mission.
3) Every planet has a Self Defence force of some kind, a NR garrson or a Imperial SD protecting a planet.

Even with overrunning sectors instead of planets now, the problems will only grow accordingly.

[Force Master Hunter]

I wonder if you missed the poll Vis. A Fleet Game Master is not going to happen - a game Master of any type isnt going to happen

The fact is, all you need is a decent dose of common sense and fair play. And I really dont see why it cant be applied to fleets because most general roleplayers seem capable of it - even when the fleet players do a general RP, they use common sense and fair play. I see no reason why it cant be done.

[Darth Viscera]

:( Wishful thinking, then.

[Khendon S]

Ever watched B5? If you have, you'll notice wars happen all of the time and planets are easily taken, this is due to the fact that not all planets have the strings to pull or resources/money needed to implement large fleets, planetary defenses, etc. Most planets are ruled by themselves, thus, they have to fend for themselves, making them have to spend money not only on defenses, but on housing, economy, etc. That's why a fleet would have an easy time taking and holding a sector, especially a made up one where you determine the defenses, technological advancement, etc.