Favorite Black & White Movie?

[Jedieb]

Does anyone here watch old classic Hollywood movies? I just caught The Philadelphia Story on HBO. It's one of my favorites. Cary Grant, Katherine Hepburn, & Jimmy Stewart (He won the Best Supporting Oscar for his role) give GREAT performances. The dialogue is sharp, tight, and witty. The actors rattle off pages of dialogue in a matter of seconds.
Grant is as smooth as ever and Stewart and Hepburn shine in the scenes they have together. It's one of the best romantic comedies of the Golden Age of Hollywood and I highly recommend it to anyone who is interested in films from that era.

Even as a young kid in the late 70s and 80s I was never put off by "old" films. I use to watch old westerns with my dad and old gangster flicks starring Bogart, Edward G. Robinson and James Cagney. I don't care if a movie is old. TODAY'S movies will be OLD some day. Will you hate or discount them when they and you are decades older?

I'm rambling, the Nyquil is getting to me. I've been sick all weekend. My question is this:

Does anyone else watch older black and white films? What are some of your favorites?
MTFBWY

[Jedi Master Kyle]

I haven't seen many B&W films. I remember seeing "It's a Wonderful Life" which was awesome. "Dr. Strangelove" wasn't my favorite, and half of "The Wizard of Oz"! :)

[Challah]

Kane. Pure, unadulterated, Kane. :)

[foxdvd]

Well, my favs are from Japan...number one has to be

Seven Samurai. All of Akira's movies rock..all of them.

Outside Japan, in Germany, I love "M"

In America, there are so many, but I do love The Grapes of Wrath, and The Manchurian Candidate. Also Love The Killing, and a great great many others..

[foxdvd]

you GOT to add The Third Man


Also Strangers on a Train...(or any Hitchc0ck movie!!!)

[Jedi Master Carr]

I'd say Casblanca, it is easily one of the best movies of all time and you can still watch it today and understand where the characters are coming from. To me the best love story every made.

[jjwr]

Have to agree with Fox on this one, I haven't seen many B&W movies but the Kursawa ones are great, Seven Samurai comes to mind as the best.

[Darth Turbogeek]

Citizen Kane.

[Darth23]

You posted this just to piss Jon off, didn't you? :p



I really like the screwball comedies of the 30's and 40's. Especially Bringing up Baby and His Girl Friday. I really like Casablanca also.

[Jedieb]

Darth23, only you would be evil enough to do something like that. ;)

You mentioned a couple of great Cary Grant films. His Girl Friday is probably my #2 all time comedy and Bringing Up Baby is another Grant/Hepburn classic. It's been years since I've seen an old screwball comedy from the Marx brothers.

Must get Turner Classic Movies...

[foxdvd]

All good choices so far! I think if Jon watched something like Yojimbo, or Manchurian Candidate, he would start to like B&W movies more.

[Jedieb]

The Manchurian Candidate was great! Does anyone remember Seven Days In May starring Burt Lancaster and Kirk Douglas? Lancaster is a power hungry general with plans to blackmail the President into resigning. That was a great political thriller and has a theme quite similiar to TMC.

[foxdvd]

yeap..great movie...also, there are a lot of good war movies in black and white..

[JonathanLB]

"Will you hate or discount them when they and you are decades older?"

No, because they will still look real and they will always have their good quality. Black and white is essentially a defect, because movies are not meant to be in black and white. That is not to say there are not tons of good movies like that, but those ones would have been done in color if it were possible at the time.

Today, you have movies coming out that no matter how far into the future you go, they'll still be just as real as ever. You see a gun fight in today's Hollywood movie, that is not going to look worse or different twenty years later because it is perfectly realisitic as it stands. That is the great thing about modern movies, they are becoming so real that many of them are not at all hindered my technology. That is the major benchmark, when you can make a movie and display anything you want whatsoever.

I can't even think of a favorite black and white movie, though, I think I like the black and white X-Files episode, that was a good one :)

[DvdJervs]

I would have to say Casablanca, even though it has been redigitally done in colour (and I proudle have a copy at home which I watch regularly).

A personal favourite - The Dambusters, based on the true story on the dambusting raid against Germany's main lakes during WW2. My cousin (who is played in the film), a bomber pilot, was killed in that raid.

[Jedieb]

"No, because they will still look real and they will always have their good quality. Black and white is essentially a defect, because movies are not meant to be in black and white. That is not to say there are not tons of good movies like that, but those ones would have been done in color if it were possible at the time."

So Schindler's List, Raging Bull, and Paper Moon are defective films? Black and white is not a defect, it is an art form. Gone With The Wind was filmed in color but for decades after that films were still filmed in black and white. It was both a financial and artistic choice. Films made in black and white require enormous amounts of preparation in regards to lighting and cinematography. The lighting demands can be even more intensive than color films.


"Today, you have movies coming out that no matter how far into the future you go, they'll still be just as real as ever. You see a gun fight in today's Hollywood movie, that is not going to look worse or different twenty years later because it is perfectly realistic as it stands."

There is one of the fatal flaws in your argument. You're under the misguided notion that gunfights are realistic. Have you ever even fired a gun? Have you ever fired a machine gun at standing or moving targets? I've trained with automatic and semi-automatic weapons and even some revolvers and I can tell you that most Hollywood and Chinese action films are so blatantly unrealistic it's laughable. Anyone else who's been trained to use these weapons will tell you the same thing. What you see today in movies are ARTISTIC INTERPRETATIONS of gunplay. They are by no means realistic. Gunfights filmed in the 50s and 90s are BOTH unrealistic Hollywood visions of gunplay. The only difference between the two are the artistic sensibilities of the artists who created them. Those sensibilities were shaped by the times and technology of the artists and thus both eras have EQUAL merit. One is not superior to the other. You just have a prejudice against older films that you can't seem to admit to. It's a shame really, you're missing out on some great movies. But the day will come when someone will diss all the movies you like as "20th century" or "non-digital". You'll rant and rave and not even realize you're talking to a younger version of yourself.

DVD Jervs, I think I'd burst into flames if I saw your colorized version of Casablanca! I'm glad you enjoy it, but I couldn't stand to watch even 5 minutes of it.

[DarthAce]

Citicen Kane!:)

[foxdvd]

Most Hong Kong action movies are not real..but they never claim to be..they are"fun"...but if you want real gunfire, movies, check out Full Alert, and in America, Heat. Very well done.


and yes, I have used guns my whole life(or at least since I was 9)

[Jedieb]

So you know what I'm talking about fox. Look, I love watching action flicks, but they're not even close to being realistic. You've been trained how to shoot, how many times do you see characters use their guns realistically on screen? How many times do you see gunshot wounds portrayed realistically? It doesn't happen very often. Some of my favorite action movies are the Die Hard films, but if you look at them logically they're ridiculous.
Does every explosion have to result in a fireball? C-4 doesn't go up that way unless it's detonated in an action movie. Which is fine for an action film, but it goes back to one of my points. When you see Hollywood & Japanese action today you're seeing an artistic interpretation of violence, not reality. An artistic interpretation of a fight scene in a 90s action film like Die Hard is no more realistic than a western brawl with John Wayne filmed in the 50s. Only someone who's never been in a fight would think the 90s version is closer to reality. Why, because it's in color?
You're a big DVD fan, and a big Akira fan, do you think his films are "defective"? Do they need to be colorized to brought up to par to today's movies?

[DvdJervs]

DVD Jervs, I think I'd burst into flames if I saw your colorized version of Casablanca! I'm glad you enjoy it, but I couldn't stand to watch even 5 minutes of it.
Well you just stick to the good old black and white version (which is still perfectly fine - I loved the film before I ever saw it in colour :) ) and I'll stick with the colour version, and we'll both have the best of both worlds. :)

Seriously when I saw the colour version in all its glory the world moved for me. Casablanca just became so alive like never before. That said, not every film should be redone in colour - I think I'd die if The Dambusters was redone in colour for instance. :)

[foxdvd]

If someone took Akira Kurosawa’s older movies and colorized them I would just about die. Just like action in Hong Kong movies (and American movies) are over done for artistic purposes, those movies use black and white photography for artistic purposes. Before the first colorized movies, it could be argued that in deed, the limit of black and white kept people from making the movies they wanted, but you can not say that of movies from the 40-60’s. Color was there, but many chose to keep their movies black and white, because it was a whole other art form to film in color verses black and white. “The Third Man” would suck so bad colorized.


As for action movies, what you say is true. If you WANT realism, most movies will disappoint. There are only a few people and movies which use guns properly (the two choices above are good). There are some good war movies for realism though. I love the wild stuff, so I am happy, but it is refreshing when a movie comes along and has realistic fights, and shoot-outs.

What I think Jon was trying to say was this. In older movies, action and shoot-outs were stiff, and artistically dull. Today’s movies, when it comes to displaying action, even if it is the wild unrealistic type, there is little if no room for improvement. Special effects are getting close to the point when they become photo-realistic, and in some areas, like shoot-outs, they already are.

[Jedieb]

You like sticking up for him don't you Fox? ;)
You and I can have a rational discussion about this topic, but once he gets into the fray it's probably going to turn into another flame session. He doesn't just say that the action is inferior, he calls older films themselves inferior and defective. Look back at some of the things he's said about older movies in other threads. He once labled everything made before 1970 as inferior. Can you defend that?

And no matter how good special effects get EVERYTHING will eventually look dated. Take a look at Lethal Weapon and compare it to LW4. It's easy to spot which one was made in the 80s and which one was made in the 90s. Eventually, TPM will look as dated as the original ANH looks to us today. People will look at TPM's CGI and say it looks cartoonish in comparison to what the see in their 2020 multiplexes. Does that mean that TPM will be a defective film in 2020?

Like you said, B & W was used for artistic purposes throughout the 40s-60s. Modern directors like Scorsese have used it to create some of the greatest motion pictures ever made (Raging Bull). I guess Martin didn't have Jon around to tell him that "movies are not meant to be in black and white." Add Spielberg to that list as well. If only Jon had been there to tell him he was making an inferior film because he decided to shoot the film in B & W.

Colorization
Adding color to a film is a funny thing. As a rule, I stay away from ANYTHING that's colorized. It just doesn't look or feel right. I'm sure the technology has improved adn today's efforts are much better than the crap that Turner and his buddies turned out in the 80s, but I'm still not sold. I'm sure some films would do quite well with a fresh coat of paint, but others are better left in good old B & W. Films like Casablanca and Citizen Kane have specific scenes that just work better in Black and White than in color. Wells and Michael Curtiz knew what they were doing. They set up their shots and lighting to take advantage of B & W film. Niether of those movies would look right to me in color, much the same way that Kirosawa's stuff would look wrong to you in color.

BTW, The Third Man was that great old thriller in which Wells played the bad guy right? Who was the male lead? Was it Robert Mitchum? I haven't seen TPMan in years.

[foxdvd]

"He once labled everything made before 1970 as inferior. Can you defend that?"

No I can not...but I do stand up for my friends, and Jon is one of them. Many times he says things I do not agree with, so I stay away from those post(just check the history, when I do not join in, it is prob because I think Jon is wrong)..but when he has a point I agree with, even if it is just a small part of the argument, I will stand up for him.



As for your points on special effects...you go back to the early 80's..and then 85..HUGE jump in special effects..85-90..not as big..90-95..big again, but only because of CGI, and then 95-2000..even less..the point ?, it is slowing down. The jump will not be as big. 20 years from now, movies made today will not look as dated, as movies form the 80's look now..there will always be some jump year from year, but that jump is getting smaller and smaller..


Yes, TPM does have some lighting problems with the CGI, and some intigration problems..but there are parts, like the pod race, that even though I have seen it near 100 times, never looses its magic. Other parts, Like Jar Jar, or some of the backgrounds, you start to see the seems, and problems, but with the Pod Race, and a few other parts, they have reached photo-realism..and there is very little room for improvment..you get the idea that if ILM had 5years to work on TPM, then all of it would be like the Pod race..but they are rushed..

[JonathanLB]

I never once said films before 1970 are inferior, just that I don't find myself liking many movies before 1970.

I've seen The Manchurian Candidate, so don't assume something before you ask me. Yes, it was a good movie, I really enjoyed it and it's very intruiging. I had forgotten it was even in black and white...

In some cases, black and white IS done for artistic reasons, but what I am saying is that before they had color, everything was of course black and white. That is a defect of many of those movies, because they could have been stronger from a visual standpoint and thus more interesting if done in color. I am sure many of their creator's would agree.

In some cases, though, something can be done better in black and white, even in today's films, than it can in color. Examples are flashbacks, which sometimes come in the form of painful memories, flashbacks in time periods when TV was black and white, etc. Those are artistic, valid uses of black and white.

Other times, you'd just as soon see the movie in color because it should have been in color all along. Imagine the Star Wars movies in black and white! They would suck horribly from a visual standpoint and that is one of the key aspects of Star Wars. Since they are fantasy movies, the visuals are very important because they help bring moviegoers into the world that Lucas creates. The story is the key, yes, but the visuals draw you into that story, so they must be impressive.

It is only at this time in Hollywood history that anyone would make an absurd statement about how TPM will look outdated in 20 years. You know what? Blade Runner is 18 years old, it still doesn't look outdated because there is no need for improving any of the scenes from a visual effects standpoint. The same goes with ESB and ROTJ *for the most part*. ESB almost totally, but ROTJ has a few matte lines I'd still take out, if it were my film...

ANH has a bit of work, some scenes are awesome and they will always stand up now that they've been redone, but others should be further redone to correct some visual inconsistencies.

The pod race is a better example of what I am talking about, it is photo realistic and thus perfect.

In terms of gun fights, I was not implying that they are portrayed as realistic in terms of how gun fights really go, but I was implying that they appear exactly as their creators want them to...

That was not the case back 40 years ago either. Spartacus and Ben-Hur and all of those wonderful epics only wish they had the technology that today's modern epics like Gladiator and Braveheart did...

They used these air pump arrow shooting devices in Braveheart that worked very well, but they simply didn't have anything like that before.

There are further improvements to make in computer graphics, but very few of them have anything to do with quality, more to do with effectiveness and cost.

For instance, we can do absolutely anything with CG, you want it, we'll make it, but that doesn't mean it'll be cheap. Also, there are not programs for specific kinds of effects, instead they would probably have to be written. The waves in The Perfect Storm created a new obstacle, but those, again, are photo realistic and totally perfect. They will never appear dated because they are just as they should be. That is a rare thing to be able to say, but today we can say it with almost all modern movies.

There are even plenty of early 1990's movies or even 80's movies that did not require the advanced CG we are capable of now, thus they are perfect from an effects standpoint because the technology for doing *what they needed* did exist back when they were made.

Still, for 100 years movies have been changing and, dare I say, evolving and improving. That means that people are inclined to say, just as they are with microchips, "It will never stop, movie technology will always improve and movies that are 20 years old will always look 20 years old."

Well, the day has come when that is no longer true. Microchips, hehe, are still getting faster, though, but they're newer ;)

You can tell this certain "look" of some 80's movies, but that's more because of a bad print than anything, so they can be put onto DVD and usually restored to looking nearly perfect as far as picture quality goes...

Black and white usually bothers me with movies, because I don't like it. It is inferior if you're going to use it for the whole movie, even artistically, it is visually inferior. Now, using it in a few scenes, that can be effective. Nevertheless, would you put your computer monitor on 2 color mode, black and white? If you like that, fine, but I don't, I like my 16 million colors or whatever it is.

In general, though, I enjoy good movies of all kinds, regardless of whether they are old or new, black or white. If the story is there and they keep my interest, they succeed as movies. But a bad movie in black and white is even worse than a bad one in color.

Some of my favorite older movies are not black and white, something like Ben-Hur for instance.

The only way that I see today's movies ever looking "outdated" is if we switch to some sort of 3-D movie where you look up at the stage and it looks like a series of holograms are moving in a real, true, 3D environment. Now that would be something, then any movie before that time would look outdated, but how would that translate to the home? See, there will always be flat screen movies, so I'm not too worried about that.

Jedieb, you crack me up, go play with your guns or whatever and have fun!

[Dutchy]

I didn't care at all for Casablanca. I thought it was plain boring. I have to admit that it looked surprisingly good for a 60 year-old movie. Very good, actually.

I wish I could see more classic movie, but they are very hard to get by here. In general they appeal less to me than today's movies, but I really like to see them anyway.

My favorite Black & White movie is Steven Spielberg's masterpiece Schindler's List. Visually and technically one of the very best movies ever made. It's SO masterfully filmed.

[Jedieb]

"when I do not join in, it is prob because I think Jon is wrong"

I should probably do the same fox but I just can't help myself.


"It is only at this time in Hollywood history that anyone would make an absurd statement about how TPM will look outdated in 20 years."

I have to disagree with you there again. Much of the CGI in TPM is near perfect, but not all. Specifically the CGI generated characters. Jar Jar, Boss Nass, and Sebulba will look dated in comparison to the CGI characters 20 years from now. They may even look dated in comparison to EP3 characters, provided the technology advances far enough. You mentioned the pod racing scene, one of my favorite sequences from TPM. There is still room for improvement there. In fact, not everyone loved the CGI in TPM. A few people labeled it as "cartoonish" and fake. I thought it looked impressive, but not all of it was photo realistic. There are shots that look very computer generated. Shots that could easily be improved upon 20-30 years from now.

There are a few other things that you're overlooking that makes films dated. Small things like hair and dialogue. Because of the nature of their dialogue the SW films can can hold up quite well in that regard. With hair however they fall victim to Han's 70's sideburns and Luke's 80's Supercuts special do from ROTJ. You can date a 40s detective noir film from its dialogue fairly easily, you'll be able to do the same with a 90s action film 30 years from now. EVERYTHING BECOMES DATED.

Overall I thought you wrote a nice post. I just like B & W moives much more than you do and do not consider their lack of color a defect whatsoever.


"Jedieb, you crack me up, go play with your guns or whatever and have fun!"

Well I do love to spread the joy of laughter! By the way, I haven't fired a weapon of any kind in close to a decade and I would never own or keep a gun in my house. You're good buddy fox probalby plays with guns more than I do. I doubt it, he seems wise enough to know guns are nothign to be "played" with. What I am in regards to guns is very familiar with their power and use. Now you go play with your "whatever" and have fun you crazy little Oregonian.

[Jedieb]

Holy crap Darth23, you're right! That was one hell of a double post. Stupid computer! >(

[Darth23]

That was one serious double post.


Technology doesn't matter. Artists use whatever technology is available to the fullest extent possible. They are limited by their own creativity nor that this or that piece of equipment.

Because B &W was the standard for so long - filmmakers of the time were able to use the medium to it fullest extent. The entire genre of Film noir really only looks good in black and white. B & W has it's own plusses - this is one reason so many films were in black in white even into the 60's.

Movies like Manhattan, Raging Bull and Schindler's List, were intentionally shot in the medium - and I think there will continue to be B&W movies into the future.

------------

[bronto]

Kevin Smith's "Clerks". Well, it is in Black and White.

[buff jedi 2]

hey , clerks is B&W isnt it !!.well I would have to say my fav. B&W movie would have to be KING KONG OR the ORIG> GODZILLA. I lean more towards kong because he reminds me of mother.



buff jedi

[Jedieb]

Speaking of Kong, Mighty Joe Young was a fun old black and white gorilla flick. I use to love watching that as a kid. Mighty Joe probably looked just like buff did when he was a baby. Now of course buff is far too massive to compare to a 12 foot gorilla.