Israel Elections

[Jedi Master Carr]

I think we might be in for some trouble today is Election day for Israel and all indications point that they will elect Ariel Sharon as prime minister. If nobody knows who he is I will explain, Sharon is an extrmist a memeber of the Likud Party which is completely against peace with the Palestines. Sharon also was prime minister before in the early 80's and it was his decision that lead to the invasion of Lebanon. It was under his reign of power that countles atrocities were commited and thousands died including 100's of American soliders. After his troops were forced out by a combined arab effort he was forced to step down. Before he became Prime minister though he was a General during the first Arab-Israel War back in the 50's. In that war he was responsible for an attack on the town of Qibya in the west bank where he ordered his men to wipe out the whole village killing 60 people in all including men, women and children. This man is a war criminal and it does not look good he has already threanted the president of Egypt who is the most moderate ruler in the middle east and a propent of peace. And the palastinies are already starting even worse violence as we speak and I cannot imagine what will happen when the result come in. If war breaks out I would be worried because Egypt, the Suadis, Syria, Jordan, and even Iraq could all become involved in the mess. I would hope the U.S would stay out of it but consiering that our new president is just inching to get the military involved he would use them. I am not saying it could lead to WW 3 but we could have thousands of americans coming home in body bags. Some of these muslims are zealots as we have seen in the past they will drive a car filled with explosives like they did in 82 and kill 100's of people. I would like to be optimisic but I cannot find anything to be optistic about this bad situation.

[Darth23]

I can't see anythign to be optimistic about either. I think that if Sharon tried to 'crack down' even more, the violence will get worse with the probable involvement of many of the Arab States.

I think it's going to be a mess.

[ReaperFett]

IMO, the peace process was doomed the moment that Clinton went out of office

[Jedieb]

Having served in Desert Storm and being a general history buff I wholeheartedly agree that Sheron's election today was a landmark event. Israelis are reacting to Barak's failure to move the peace process forward. The Israeli/Palestinian violence that we've seen over the past year has steadily worn away at Barak's support and his departure was inevitable.

I will say this, Clinton, Jimmy Carter, Henry Kissenger, the ghost of Ricahrd Nixon, and the entire Jedi Council couldn't have saved the peace process. It's really quite simple.
1) Israel wins Palestinian land in a war.
2) Israel builds settlements on the land.
3) Palestinians refuse to accept Israel's occupation of the land and to this day see it at theirs.
4) Palestinians won't be satisfied until Israeli settlements are abandoned.
5) The Israelis will NEVER willingly be removed from their settlements.
6) Both sides are living within EYESIGHT of each other.

A peaceful resolution to this process is simply impossible. I personally don't believe that Sharon's election will lead to a full scale war. But this could signal that the negotiations will soon be over. What the "new" state of affairs will be is anybody's guess. I would expect that the more moderate Arab states, Saudi Arabia, Egypt, and Jordan will help stabilize the situation.

I will say this about Sheron; one country's war criminal is another's hero. Most Israelis see Sheron as a hero and a great military leader. Throughout the Arab world he's seen as a war criminal. Whatever happens, the Palestinians will not defeat the Israelis in a military situation. I can imagine a worse case scenario in which Israelis spend the next few years under terroist siege, but during that time you can bet the Israeli military will be hammering away at the Palestinians. Molotov cocktails and slingshots are no match against Israeli firepower. Sadly, I see no peaceful resolution to this mess.

[Jedi Master Carr]

I think I am even less optimistic than you. For some reasons I think we might have another Israel-Arab war mostly because of Sharon. As I pointed out he treated Mubarick (sp) with hostility. If he keeps that up then we have problems beucause Egypt will not take it from them. And then we have Iraq to worry about, Saddam is just itching to do something. I am not saying that it will happen tomorrow but it will depend on how he shapes his colotion and what his first moves are and then we might see some type of action from the Arab world.

[Doc Milo]

I'm of the opinion that there will never be real peace in the middle east until the End of Times.

I believe this because of The Revelation to John -- the last book of The Bible.

Nothing anyone does will bring peace to that region. It has always been a mess and will always be a mess until the End Days.

[Darth Turbogeek]

Doc, I totally agree with you.

[Jedi Master Carr]

That's not entirely true. Sure, since the 1948 when Israel was created it's been a mess but that is a recent thing if you go back historically Palestine or Israel which ever you wanna call it has been more peaceful then other parts of the world Acutally until the last 50 years Europe would have been the most chatoic of places and not the middle east. If you look back at the history of the region you will see this began when the Romans suppressed the Jews and kicked them out after several rebellions by 135 A.D. That is one thing about the Romans they imposed peace on everybody in their empire. From then to the Crusades Jerusalem was a pretty safe place especially under Moselm rule which is really odd because the Moslems treated Jews just fine it was the Christians they had a problem with as seen with the crusades which eventually became an awful quest by the European warlords to conquer more territory as seen by the last crusade when the crusaders sacked Constantinople, a christian city by the way, it showed what the crusaders were really after gold and land. After the area had few problems that I can think of until 1948. What's really weird is that the only times the area is a mess has mostly been when the Jews have been the rulers going back to ancient times after the bablyonians conquered them. When the area has been conquered by an outsider Persia, the Greeks, Rome, Byzantium, the muslim Califs(sp) the ottoman Empire, and Great Britian is when the area has been stable either by the resident own will in most of these cases or a peace imposed. Honestly I don't know if ths means anything as far as the current situation is concern but I think it does end the myth that the Jews and Muslims have hated each other forever because it has only been a issue in the last 50 years.

[Jedieb]

That's an excellent post JMC. It's nice to see a historical perspective that encompasses such a long term view of the Middle East.

Quick question, can anybody give me a date for the "End Times"? I wanted to mark it down in my daily planner. ;)

[Jedi Master Carr]

Thank you Jedieb I wanted to put my historical knowledge to some use and destroy the myth of that the Jews and Muslims have always hated each other. As far as the date for the end Times I can't help you there I am stilling searching for that date;)

[Doc Milo]

The date for the End Times? Can't you ask a simple question, like "explain the theory of relativity in 25 words or less?" :)

All I can say is, from my interpretation, Seven Years after the Antichrist comes to power and signs a treaty with Israel guaranteeing seven years of peace.

[Jedieb]

I just saw this little gem in the paper today and I thought it fit in nicely in this thread. Yesterday a Palestinian bus driver crashed his bus into a bus stop in the town of Azur killing 8 and injuring 20. Then he led police on a chase and was eventually stopped and shot by police (he wasn't killed). Here are two statements that sum up both sides and the situation in a nutshell.
Barak
"abominable crime"

Arafat
Claimed it might have been an accident. "Whatever the cause, we are against the use of violence and of course killing people,"

The bus attack, the worst act of terroism in Israel since 97, was in response to the the assasination of a Palestinian leader by Israeli forces earlier this week.

Stay tuned, because this is just a sign of what's to come this year.

[Jedi Master Carr]

While the situation gets worse in Israel, now things might have just gotten a little worse with the bombing of Iraq today. I was shocked that we had bombed Iraq especially especially since there was no reason to do it. Iraq had not done anything yet except maybe shoot at our planes a couple of times but they still did not shoot them down. Thats like executing somebody because you think they might kill someone. I think we have gotten ourselves in more trouble then we want mostly because Hussein could make a move. What that move maybe could be anything he might bomb Israel for example. And if that happens and we decided to go to war with Saddam sure it will be Persian Gulf 2 but our allies have now deserted us except for Great Britain and we also have to worry that a few of the arabs nation might ally with Iraq like Syria, Lebanon and maybe even Saudi Arabia if they got mad enough at least we could be looking at some kind of price hit on gas as the countires like Iran and Saudi Arabia decide to lower the supply of oil to us. That would really hurt especially in the NE if the winter gets any worse. I just think Bush made a bad decision today a decision that could make the situation in the middle east even worse.

[ReaperFett]

the strikes were 100% right. They are shooting at our planes, doing their jobs. We have some people doing their jobs, and getting shot out. We took out what shoots at them. And that is the bloody right thing to do.

Oh, and look at the pics of the 'injured'. No visible wounds, just lot of bandages, with red on them. Yeah, like they are real

[Jedi Master Carr]

I just don't agree with it, partly because because I think we need to get out. The sanctions have not worked the Iraqui people love Saddam more know then before Persian Gulf and hate Americans more than ever. I also think it damanges our credibility with the other leaders of the world mainly because we did not consult with NATO or any leader in the arab world. Instead of shooting why not give Saddam a warning first and then see how he reacts then shoot. At least then you don't lose face with the Arab world and our other allies in Europe including France, Germany, and Russia who have all come down hard on us for doing it.

[ReaperFett]

Iraqi like Saddam for the reason the Germans loved Hitler, IMO. Propaganda. THey are told what is good and such. Most know it isnt, but wont say a word

[Jedieb]

This most recent bombing is nothing new. The U.S. and Britain have bombed Iraq 7 times this year already, 4 times since Bush took office. Last year we bombed them on a regular basis. I believe the vast majority of these attacks have been against remote anti-aircraft units, but an attack is an attack. Saddam could care less how many troops he's lost in the last couple of years. He doesn't concern himself with military casualties the way a U.S. president would. In fact, he knows that he's slowly winning the war of public opinion in the international community.

The Arab community supported us during Desert Storm because it was in their best interests. But now that Iraq doesn't have possession of all that Kuwaiti oil, they don't have as much reason to support the U.S. The dirty work has been done and most of these nations would like to see the U.S. and Britain end their military operations and end the sanctions.

Here's a nice little tid bit from Baghdad;

"This crime will not go without strong punishment for the aggressive Americans,'' the paper added. It did not say how Iraq would retaliate.

Of course the Iraqi paper didn't specify how they'd retaliate because there isn't a damn thing they can do without getting their butts handed to them again. Despite that, Saddam still wins here. Here's a quote from an Iraqi teenager;

"They expect us to hate our leader by doing this ... They are wrong. We started to hate everything American because of these strikes,'' said Tamader Jassim, 19, a student.

Eventually the sanctions are going to have to end. They can't stay in place forever. It's been close to eleven years and many in the Arab community are simply growing tired of U.S. interefence. Speaking of eleven years, where was I 11 years ago...
http://ourworld.cs.com/_ht_a/Eltmore/15958410.jpg

Ah, memories...

[ReaperFett]

New York looks differnt when pictures are taken, doesn't it?

:)

j/k

[ReaperFett]

BTW, what is that you're sitting on?

[Jedieb]

LOL Reaper! The Upper Eastside does look a bit rough doesn't it?

I was sitting on some sandbags that made up an abandoned Iraqi checkpoint. It was located on a bridge leading into Kuwait City. In the background you can see oil wells burning. At night the wells produced images that I thought were rather awe-inspiring. It struck me at the time that the images resembled what I thought hell would look like. Fire spewing from the ground and the sky a menacing black and orange. I know it's rather morbid to say, but it was pretty cool stuff.