Star Wars as a Religion? [Archive]

JonathanLB

Mar 10th, 2001, 12:43:37 AM

I would love to talk further about this, so please allow me to further explain. I was rushed before.

I am not some fanatic as some of you seem to feel, but I am sure you think that I fanatically defend the saga, and you are right, I am very supportive of the films and I don't appreciate criticism when I find it without merrit (some criticism may have merrit, most does not).

I want to break down this huge barrier that some people think of as religion, because you have the wrong impression of the word. Religion does NOT mean belief in God, so if that is your current thinking or definition, then you need to realize that you have an improper understanding of the term, which is critical to understanding that Star Wars indeed already is a religion.

According to Dictionary.com (and check other sources too), religion is "A cause, a principle, or an activity pursued with zeal or conscientious devotion."

I think that EVERYONE here, EVERYONE would agree that Star Wars fits perfectly with that definition. Anyone NOT agree? If so...I don't think you're a fan, because fan is short for fanatic, and a Star Wars fanatic is someone who pursues the movies "with zeal or conscientious devotion." Yes?

So, I am not saying that you should go burn your Bible's and embrace Star Wars. In fact, I am saying that you can be BOTH a Christian and a believer in Star Wars. Why is that, you ask? Well, Star Wars draws many values from Christianity, and actually compliments that more established religion very well. You can be both a believer in the values that the Star Wars Saga presents, AND a devoted Christian. Why can you subscribe to "two religions," then?

That's an easy question too. One religion believes in the divine, and in the supernatural, and the other is a moral philosophy more than it is an actual religion, though one can certainly define Star Wars as a religion. So, you can believe in the moral values and principles presented in the saga, because they are no different from the same messages present in the Bible.

That is not true just of Christianity, but also of many other religions.

Don't get me wrong, I'm not some freak who is going to get my Jedi robe out, go to my home theater every Sunday at the same time and watch the trilogy, and worship the great God of Lucas. Lucas is just a mortal man who created a fantastic saga that I think we can all agree is truly great for the values it teaches.

I hope, I truly hope, that most Star Wars fans enjoy the saga NOT just for the visuals and for the cool factor, but for the deeper aspects of the saga, such as great quotes that resemble famous teachings from hundreds of years past.

You can find an answer to almost anything in the Star Wars Saga, if you look hard enough. I mean, you're not going to get advice about how to install that new video card you just bought, but if you want to know, "Why is cheating wrong?" Well, "If you take the quick and easy path as Vader did, you will become an agent of evil." I am sure you can think of a ton more examples, so I don't need to elaborate any futher.

I think this is a fun topic, because I believe that Star Wars is a casual religion, and you don't have to be a member of some weird cult to agree with that. I definitely understand, though, that we do not want to be classified as a bunch of lifeless freaks who worship Lucas, which is what it would be misconstrued as, unfortunately. The same oppression greets all new religions, basically, so that's not surprising.

Somehow it is ABSOLUTELY ABSURD to believe in something like "The Force," but it's reasonable to believe that there is a God and that Jesus came back to life, which is scientifically impossible. So, believing in supernatural occurences within Christianity is clearly reasonable, but once you switch to moving objects with your hands, hell, that's utterly absurd garbage!!!

Nah, but that's not what I mean by a religion, though. I seriously hope that nobody actually believes in "the Force" as defined in Star Wars, or believes that they can use it, lol. Star Wars as a religion does not imply belief in anything within the Star Wars UNIVERSE, only belief in the basic values presented in the movies.

The main reason why I love Star Wars IS because of the fantastic teachings. I find all of them so true, and it's wonderful how they can be worked into a compelling story and not drag it down whatsoever, but in fact enhance it.

The Jedi are noble and honorable, and seriously if everyone followed their code of conduct, the world WOULD be a better place. Of course, the same can be said of the Ten Commandments and many other parts of other religions, which is why SW is just an amalgamationof many faiths...

Fascinating subject, really, because by definition Star Wars is a religion, but nobody yet wants to admit that, because for some reason there are negative connotations that come with a religion based on a movie saga.

Of course, one based on a book is somehow different. I should have figured, I guess books are more "divine" than movies, somehow. Don't ask me, it makes no sense. I guess if you prefer, you could read the Star Wars novelizations and pretend the movies don't exist, LOL.

I don't see why the visual medium is any less valid than the literary medium. I am a writer, and I love what I can do with words in a book, but making a movie is no less valid...

buff jedi 2

Mar 10th, 2001, 06:03:59 PM

Well i dont know about Star wars as a riligion and all Of that . But I I do Know Star Wars has always been a BIG part of my life.I always say it like this GOD first Family2nd star wars 3rd friends 4th

buffjedi/wookieboy

Jedieb

Mar 10th, 2001, 10:04:48 PM

Equating SW with religion is rather absurd. It elevates SW to something its creators never intended and it mocks and insults religions at the same time. Would anyone here show up to a building to worship SW one day a week for the rest of their lives? Would anyone here structure their government and society on SW? Would anyone here kill another human being in the name of SW? Would anyone here willingly sacrifice their life for SW?

Definitions
If Jon is going to educate us about the word "religion" he should at least use the correct definition. Here's how my World Book Encyclopedia's dictionary defines religion:

1. a belief in God or gods
2. worship of God or gods
3. a particular system of religious beliefs and worship
4. anything done or followed with reverence or devotion

You notice that the definition Jon gave us refers to the 4th entry. Religion CLEARLY involves belief and worship of God. To say "Religion does NOT mean belief in God" is ridiculous. I'm quite sure if you checked established dictionaries like Webster you will see that religion and a belief and worship of god are clearly intertwined.

fan v. fanatic
fan: 1. a person extremely interested in something, such as a sport, the movies, radio, or television. 2. an enthusiastic admirer, as of an actor or writer.

fanatic: a person who is carried away BEYOND reason by his feelings or beliefs

Fan and fanatic don't seem to mean the same thing do they? If Jon is going to bring dictionaries into this thread he should at least use one. Oh wait, let me try some "Jon speak"; LOL, saying "fan is short for fanatic" is the stupidest thing I've heard all week!

"I think that EVERYONE here, EVERYONE would agree that Star Wars fits perfectly with that definition. Anyone NOT agree? If so...I don't think you're a fan, because fan is short for fanatic, and a Star Wars fanatic is someone who pursues the movies "with zeal or conscientious devotion." Yes?"

Ah, Jon telling someone that they are or aren't a SW fan. I believe that's the 1,138 time he's done that this year. Wait, we are in March, you might want to add a zero to the end of that number. (See how I used a subtle and important SW number in that paragraph? Ain't I a big fan!)

Jon and I actually share some beliefs in regards to religion. I believe we're both agnostics. Agnostics are NOT atheists. Agnostics simply believe that organized religion doesn't hold the answers to matters involving God or other supernatural beings. However, unlike Jon I understand the power of Faith and religion in both our culture and our history. I would never equate SW with Christianity or Judaism. It overstates SW's importance and impact. I bet all of the older posters here remember what the late 80's were like. Do you remember how dead SW was? Sure, some of us still pulled out the old VHS tapes and we put up our 3 trilogy posters on our dorm walls, but for all intents and purposes, SW was dead and gone. And this was despite the fact that we were fairly certain we might see more SW films one day. Can you imagine how it will be like 5 years after EP3 has come and gone? When we KNOW nothing new is coming? We may still have the occasional comic or novel, but that's about it. The dead zone that was the late 80's will be back again. That doesn't sound like much of a religion does it?

There are posters here who are quite knowledgeable on matters of religion and politics. Doc Milo is one of the most intelligent people I've ever had discussions with regarding religion and it's importance in society and politics. I'd be interested to read what he has to say in regards to SW "already" being a religion and religion not really having much to do with something silly like God! What do ya say Doc?

JonathanLB

Mar 10th, 2001, 11:58:17 PM

Alright, Jedieb you already have no respect for me, but let me try to explain something to you in a way that is hopefully not totally insulting.

You don't obviously know your religions very well, which you just proved through your post above.

Taoism and Confucianism are both considered religions, but NEITHER ONE believes in the existence of a God. Don't believe me? Buy a book on comparative religions, or either one of those religions. Both religions are merely ways to live your life HERE ON EARTH. Many religions do not focus on an afterlife, or indeed deny the existence of an afterlife, but they still are considered religions.

You cannot, simply because you want to do so, make such a sweeping statement that a religion must be based on the belief in a God or a supernatural being or "Force." Not all religions are like that, and Star Wars is just as much classifiable as a religion as Taoism or Confucianism, which were not founded on the beliefs of someone who was superhuman, but rather just very intelligent humans.

I wouldn't go so far as to say that nobody would die for Star Wars, I bet you could find someone who would die for it if you said, "either you die, or Star Wars totally disappears," I bet some people would sacrifice themselves for that, but I don't know anyone like that (thankfully?).

Religions don't have to have governments based on them, where did you find that in your dictionary? I didn't see you state it there.

By the way, here is how you USE a dictionary, Jedieb:

There are a series of definitions, all of them are true, but NOT all of them must be true for something to fit into the definition. As long as something satisfies ONE of the definitions, then it fits. It need not satisfy every one of them. I thought everyone knew that.

Nobody said that Star Wars was equal with Christianity in importance to world history. Obviously Star Wars is much more valuable to me than Christianity, and probably even to you, if you're an agnostic. But to world history, Christianity has an impact 1,000,000 times greater than Star Wars could ever have...

You have no faith in Star Wars, either, though. You are not a very trusting individual.

Star Wars will not simply disappear after Episode III. It will live on forever. Star Wars is not just a short fad, it's a phenomenon that will continue without end.

The period you describe in the late 1980's was a very dark time for the franchise, though it was not "dead," as you describe. It was actually "just a giant in hibernation," as I've heard it said in articles before. Also, you don't seem to realize that during that time, 21% of the current fan base BECAME Star Wars fans!!! It was a remarkable time in history, we didn't lose fans, we gained them, but you just couldn't tell because the merchandise slowed to a halt and there were no new events...

Dinner, again, hehe, interupting my conversation here...

Ok well you get the point.

21% number taken from Starwars.com, see polls, subject to a margin of error of course.

Jedieb

Mar 11th, 2001, 12:42:06 AM

"You cannot, simply because you want to do so, make such a sweeping statement that a religion must be based on the belief in a God or a supernatural being or "Force." Not all religions are like that, and Star Wars is just as much classifiable as a religion as Taoism or Confucianism, which were not founded on the beliefs of someone who was superhuman, but rather just very intelligent humans.
"
When exactly did I say that ALL religions had a belief in God? The only person that made "sweeping statements" was you. What I did was provide definitions for the word religion. Definitions which you ignored. I even included yours. You picked one that suited your argument and ignored the others. You didn't provide a caveat in your argument allowing for religion to include worshiping and God. You simply stated;
"Religion does NOT mean belief in God, so if that is your current thinking or definition, then you need to realize that you have an improper understanding of the term, which is critical to understanding that Star Wars indeed already is a religion."

Again, how can you say that when the first entires for the word religion in just about every dictionary you can find mention worship and belief of God? You CAN'T say it doesn't mean that. What you can say is religion ALSO means "anything followed with reverence or devotion". But that's not what you said is it?

"Religions don't have to have governments based on them, where did you find that in your dictionary? I didn't see you state it there."

I didn't say religions HAD to have governments based on them. Go back and read the post again. I said religions have been used to "structure" governments. You can find proof of that by simply picking up a newspaper and reading up on the middle east. I was reinforcing my point that religions are much more important than you were giving them credit.

"You have no faith in Star Wars, either, though. You are not a very trusting individual."

Huh? Trusting? Trusting of what? I trust my friends, my wife, my parents, my children, etc. Faith in SW? Faith that what, that SW "will live on forever" and "continue without end"? You don't think those statements taken literally aren't fanatical? What I am is realistic. Those statements of yours aren't.

As for respect, I don't respect when you when you're condescending. I don't respect you when you presume to be someone who can and can't label people as fans. You're in no position to label anyone ANYTHING. I don't respect you when you insult others. See, it's that simple.

I hope you enjoyed your dinner. And I appreciate the fact that you took a civil tone in your post. But remember, I was at my worst when I used "Jon speak". That's the only time I used "LOL" and "stupid". I'm not even the one who coined the term "Jon speak". Think about that.

Jedi Master Carr

Mar 11th, 2001, 01:01:02 AM

To this point I have not said a word on this post mainly I thought it was a little silly but after Jonathan and Jedieb both have made their arguments I figure I must try to solve part of them. First both of you are right to a degree. First Jonathan is right that a belief in a god and religion does not go hand and hand. There are several major religions that have no god in its system of beleifs. Buddhism which has no god in its belief structure. Although one can believe in any god, I have heard of Christian buddhists, but still belief in a god is not a requirment. Other examples I can think of off hand are Confucianism, Shintoism both of which involve nature and ancestor worship. There are several other minor religions that are similar. So in a sense i agree with Jonathan on that point. One could make Star Wars into a religion but one could also worship the Godfather, or the Wizard of Oz if they wanted to. But I do not think the majority of Star Wars fan worship the films but I guess one could. Still I would see much more as a cult to me, mainly because the religious base is so small and would eventually die out unlike Buddhism which is still worshiped today. So really Star Wars is not a religion, but it does include many religious motifs from Christianity, Buddhism, Judaism, and other near eastern religions. I personally think this is why the movies work so well because it combines so many different cultural, mythological and religious motifs into its story but I do not think that makes it a religion although one could worship it if they chose but I would not be one of those people.

Jedi Master Carr

Mar 11th, 2001, 01:12:16 AM

I did not read your last post Jedieb because I was doing some research in posting my response. To be fair I thought you said that the belief in a god goes hand and hand with a religion maybe you didn't mean it but the way the sentence was worded sounded that way. Here is your quote

"Religion CLEARLY involves belief and worship of God. To say "Religion does NOT mean belief in God" is ridiculous. I'm quite sure if you checked established dictionaries like Webster you will see that religion and a belief and worship of god are clearly intertwined."

As I said maybe you didn't mean it that way but it sounded like it. And as I said I agree with you I do not see Star Wars as a religion, though one could worship it, but that would make it more of a cult following and not a religion.

Doc Milo

Mar 11th, 2001, 05:58:35 AM

There is one thing that all religions have in common. It is "Worship" of something. Worship of God, a god, a bunch of gods, a philosophy, a man. All of them Worship something.

Can you worship a movie? Is it possible to worship Star Wars? I don't think so. Can you take the philosophies espoused in Star Wars and live your life by them? Sure. But that is not the same as a religion. Living ones life by a certain philosophy does not mean that you are practicing a religion.

There is more to the concept of a word than its mere definition. Yes, the way Star Wars fans and fanatics "pursue with zeal," or whatever (too lazy to go back and check the definition Jonathan provided) does fit quite well with that definition of religion. But that does not make Star Wars a religion. If it did, it would also make Football a religion. And Baseball a religion. And Soccer a religion, and any other sport a religion. It would mean that some peoples careers are religions to them. All it means is that fans or fanatics (or even that guy advancing his career) pursues those activities with the same zeal as one might a religion. That does not make those things religions in and of themselves.

Star Wars is not a religion. It is a myth. It contains a philosophy. But it is not a religion.

The intent of a religion is to provide an answer, some sort of salvation. Star Wars has a strong philosophy woven through it, but its intent was never to save anyone, it was never to provide the answers to life's questions. Can you find answers to lifes questions in it? Sure. But you can do that with any good work of art, with any good work of literature. Heck, you can do that in Mathematics. Is Mathematics a religion Jon?

And one last thing. Jonathan said in his post (pretty much disrespecting the belief system of anyone who believes in Christianity) that the fictions of Star Wars was pretty much the equivalent of believing that a man rose from the dead "which is scientifically impossible," he said.

Jon, science is not perfect. Science does not have all the answers to everything. In fact, most of science is just a bunch of "theories" as to how things work based on observations in our small little corner of this vast universe. Some of those scientific theories are based on contradictions (like the Big Bang theory, where something explodes from nothingness. Well, if there is nothingness -- a concept that is hard to grasp; most people picture space as nothingness, but space is actually something, it has dimensions, etc... -- then how can something actually explode from it?) But I digress. My point is that what we know from science is but a grain of sand on an endless beach. Our knowledge is limited. So by our understanding, a man can't rise from the dead. But our understanding is practically non-existant when compared to the vastness of this universe.

Anyway, that went far from the topic about Star Wars being a religion. It is not, Jon. If Star Wars is a religion, then so is The Lord of the Rings, or any number of great works of literature that have come down from great writers through the ages. Or any number of sports with fanatics just as avid as an average Star Wars fanatic. Listen one day to your local sports talk radio station. There are people on there making up trades, people talking fantasy baseball or football, people who actually sound like they might keel over and die if the general manager of the team they love doesn't go out and do anything he can to get that star player. Are those people practicing religions? No. they are being fans, some being fanatics. They pursue those activities with "religious zeal." But those things are not religions. Just as Star Wars is not a religion.

buff jedi 2

Mar 11th, 2001, 12:28:10 PM

Ive been reading all this over the last few days and had been woundering when DOC would show up :)

buffjedi/wookieboy

Jedieb

Mar 11th, 2001, 12:33:25 PM

Thank you Doc! I knew that you could bring some insight into this discussion. I wholeheartedly agree with your post and you were much more eloquent than I was. And JMC you made an excellent point about my belief and worship paragraph. I should have gone on and made some allowance for religions that don't involve a Supreme being. But remember what statement I was responding to;

"Religion does NOT mean belief in God, so if that is your current thinking or definition, then you need to realize that you have an improper understanding of the term, which is critical to understanding that Star Wars indeed already is a religion.

There's no "religion doesn't have to mean belief in God" in there. He just flat out says that religion doesn't involve belief, faith, worship, and God. Does that sound like a proper "understanding of the term" to you? As Doc said, even those religions without a supreme being have a belief system and often involve worship.

buff jedi 2

Mar 11th, 2001, 12:37:12 PM

Let me say EBS you where holding your own BUT Doc always has a way of putting things.OI course Im just posting in here to try and devert some of the tension(I have no deep insight on the topic).we dont want to see a war buffjedi/wookieboy

BTW . love the sig

Jedieb

Mar 11th, 2001, 12:50:55 PM

Doc and I are pretty much on the same page here buff. ;) And thanks for trying to relieve the tension and keep the peace. I'm usually the one doing that. Thanks for watching all our backs.

buff jedi 2

Mar 11th, 2001, 05:15:29 PM

Always got your back Ebs ,always!

buffjedi/wookieboy

Darth23

Mar 11th, 2001, 06:14:48 PM

we don't want to be thought of as a cult like the Star Trek fans,

Um, I think it's a little too late for that.

most outsiders look at Star Wars and Star Trek the same way.

:)

JonathanLB

Mar 11th, 2001, 08:36:32 PM

No they don't...

Star Wars fans are much more respected than the Trekkies, the reason being that MANY people in the general public love Star Wars, but do not understand the appeal of Star Trek, thus the low box office grosses of those films lately, and always actually...

Star Wars fans are definitely not seen as Trekkies, only by the very ignorant, and sometimes by girls, because they are not usually into either one, so they tend to think "sci-fi" and group us all together or something. Our fan base, notoriously, is made up of about 85% guys. :( I think that's a shame, since Star Wars is for EVERYONE, they are by no means guy movies.

Nevertheless, the split wasn't *that* bad for TPM on opening weekend, 59-41 in favor of guys, not terrible...

Ok I'd like to say one thing before I continue. Jedieb is right, my sentence was poorly stated and it sounded like I meant that religions never have God's, instead of what I meant to say, which is that religion "does not necessarily mean the belief in a God." Sorry about that, I apologize, I was typing too fast and not making myself clear.

But as pointed out before, your sentence also made it sound like religions *must* involve worship of a God, lol, so I think we both screwed up...

Ok, you are right, by the definition provided sports are a religion, to some people. Do I think that is possible? No, not really. So what I'm saying is that they follow sports as if it were a religion.

Let's put it this way, I feel that in many ways Star Wars is already a religion, but that we are on the verge of it becoming a true religion. It's only a matter of time now.

With all of the articles focusing on the religious aspects of the film, then some Christian groups attacking the newest movie, they realize this is a real threat to their own faith potentially, though they shouldn't see it that way. It's not a threat to taking away from other organized religions, because you don't have to worship anything to be part of the Star Wars faith. I guess it depends on how you see the term worship too, which I don't want to go look up right now but I guess I will later, it would be interesting.

There are tons of people who say, only half jokingly, "Star Wars is my life man," or "Star Wars IS a religion." There are tens of thousands of fans who feel that Star Wars is akin to a religion, or very similar to one, or as close to one as they will come, etc.

Entertainment Weekly declared, "In 100 years it'll be a religion." Seriously, all it would take is a further decrease in the religious nature of the United States and pretty soon people would come out and really start pushing Star Wars as a better alternative, "a religion that allows you to accept scientific facts, but establish moral values too!"

Jedieb, what I said was not fanatical, what I said was true. Star Wars IS forever. It will never die, and it will never simply disappear. There are millions of fans, and more every single day of the year. These fans will continue to pass it on to their children, and that cycle will repeat endlessly. Star Wars will only gain popularity, and the books will continue to keep interest alive, same with video games, and the movies themselves will no doubt see numerous future re-releases.

Gone With the Wind isn't dead, is it? People still watch it today, it still commands the respect of moviegoers and critics alike, yet it's 61 years old (and a few months).

The Star Wars movies are probably about three times more popular today than they were in 1983, so the passage of time is only increasing interest.

The poll I pointed you to on SW.com was so interesting because *even while* interest was apparently "nonexistent," Star Wars was actually gaining fans. The merchandise didn't make the difference, the fact that no new movies were coming out was unimportant, only that new 7 and 8 year olds were watching the movies on video and still enjoying them just as much as the previous generation.

I was one of those fans, too, though I voted for the Special Edition release as what made me a fan, because my definition of being a fan is not just "liking the movies." By that lame definition we'd have 50 million Star Wars fans in the U.S. alone. Nah, a fan has to be committed to the movies, and has to have an understanding of them, otherwise they maybe could be classified as "a casual fan." I was one of those for most of my life, then with the Special Editions I became what I'd say is a real fan of the saga, someone who is devoted to understanding it, studying it.

I don't classify other people as fan/nonfan, because you are right, I don't have the right to do that, but I would say that few people would be adamant about insisting they are a Star Wars fan when they only have seen the movies 10 times each and don't even really discuss them, or buy any merchandise, or watch them frequently. They would agree that they're not real fans, but they'd probably say, "I'm not a fan, but I love the movies." I know a lot of those people. They are the reason why Star Wars continues to succeed, so they are a major part of the saga's success...

Darth Turbogeek

Mar 12th, 2001, 12:55:55 AM

Star Wars is to a degree an expression of GL's spirital views. So if SW becomes religion (And to a degree, I see no reason why it wont - there ARE people who are beginning to take it seriously - want an exboard address for them?) I see GL being the Prophet.

As Ron L. Hubbard said, the fastestway to get rich is start your own religion. Doesnt matter if it is utterly stupid, it works. Add a willing fan base and I could well see it happen. Despite fewer and fewer people going to religious edifices, 90 odd % of USA residents (92% in Aust) believe in hte existance of a God.

Just call the Force the Deity and your away.

Jedi Master Carr

Mar 12th, 2001, 01:24:52 AM

I figured it was just misworded, I also didn't read all of Jonathan's statement he kind of rambeled there and I skipped a few parts. I also do not want to be classified with Jon either and I hope you Doc didn't think I was completely agreeing with him. I did say one could follow Star Wars like a a religion, techinically much like the people in sciencetology which is considered a religion by some. Which I do not I consider it a cult much like if you made Star Wars into a religion it would become a cult too. A cult doesn't have to have suciedal members like with Jim Jones there have been others like the Moonies who suckered money from people much like Sciencetology has done to the wealthy of the U.S. I would rather not see Star Wars go to what L. Ron Hubbard did to his books so lets leave as fiction. If you want to use it as a philosophy that is fine living you life by the examples in those movies is okay worshiping it is just a little nuts. Finally I also want to know if worshiping is a part of religion than what about Buddhism what do they worship, I though it was just meditating and being a peace or something but maybe somebody else can tell me what exactly do they beleive.

Doc Milo

Mar 12th, 2001, 02:30:45 AM

Don't Buhdists believe the cow is sacred or something (I could be mixing that up.) If not, I think they may worship their philosophy.

I didn't think you were completely agreeing with him, Jedi Master Carr.

I want to point out that to some people, Star Wars may indeed be a religion. Just like to some people Baseball may be a religion. But just because it is a religion to "some people" that doesn't make it a religion. If that were the case, then anything in this entire world that people want to be fanatic about can be a religion.

I know that most governments have guidelines on what it recognizes as a legitimate religion. While I don't necessarily agree that governments decide what religions are, I'd say looking at those guidelines may be a good place to start, though, to find out what elements the majority of people -- through their representatives (at least in democratic societies) -- believe should be included to separate a religion from a cult, or merely a philosophy.

Jedi Master Carr

Mar 12th, 2001, 02:53:43 AM

I think its the Hindus that worship the cow but I am not certain. As far as Buddhists I'm not even certain myself they tried to explain to us in Non-western history class I had in college but I have now forgotten what they believed. I have heard people worship the Christ and still considered themselves a buddhist I think they called themselves Christian-Buddhists, I probably need to check out a book to find out some more. Also I agree with you about the Star Wars as a religion. I think if it got made into one it would just be a con much like Sciencetology is today. If I remember correctly wasn't Francis Ford Coppola that told Lucas to make his movies into a religion, I'm not sure if he was joking or not but I'm guessing the statement came out around the time Sciencetology started to become more well known.

Darth23

Mar 12th, 2001, 06:22:26 AM

No they don't...

Yes, Jon, they do.

Do you know how many people have said to me.. "Star Wars, Star Trek, what's the difference?"

In my experience, Trek fans tend to be more into science fiction in general. There are a lot of people who love Star Wars, but don't even like any other sci-fi/fantasy type stuff.

Doc Milo

Mar 12th, 2001, 03:27:45 PM

I just looked it up (Buddhism) in the Encyclopedia. It seems to me that it is a sort of worship of the philosophy espoused the founder of Buddhism -- the Buddha (the enlightened one) Other names that are given to the Buddha have meaning such as "He who comes thus" (the Tathagata) and "The Lord" (Bhagavat.)

There are also a lot of rituals involved. (Which seems to be another characteristic of religion. What ritual is involved in the "religion of Star Wars?" Going to see the movies? Watching them on tape? Demanding DVDs? Discussing them on message boards?)

The religion also talks about living life in a certain way to achieve a certain end -- nirvana.

Again, this seems to be a common thread throughout religions -- at least legitimate ones. What plan does Star Wars lay out, and what promise of better life does it make? You will be entertained?

Way down in the description of Buddhism, it says, "Lay practices such as the worship of stupas (burial mounds containing relics) predate Buddhism and gave rise to later ritualistic and devotional practices." So there is an element of worship within the religion as well...

(JMC, the questions about Star Wars as a religion in this post are not directed to you, but in general to the discussion.)

Jedi Master Carr

Mar 12th, 2001, 04:01:13 PM

That sounds familar, reading that brief description is that Buddhism is quite complicated. Interestingly there Buddhism seems to have influenced Lucas some there is at least some Buddhist teaching in the Star Wars films mostly involving the Jedi and especially involving Yoda. Also I didn't get offended Doc by anything you said I just didn't want people to think I was agreeing with Jonathan I think he was getting a little overboard with this Star Wars as a religion. I do not think he realizes the problems with trying to make it religion. Sure it could be made into a religion but not a legitimate one. If Lucas did that I would become angry and see him as another L. Ron Hubbard (who was just a con man). We do not want Star Wars to become Sciencetology.

Doc Milo

Mar 12th, 2001, 07:35:09 PM

I agree wholeheartedly, JMC. I do not ever want Star Wars classified as a religion, either. When that happens, it ceases being escapist entertainment (which it is intended to be) and it becomes something much more serious.

And since Star Wars draws its life-lessons from various other religions, there is no need for it to become a religion in and of itself. To do so, even if it wasn't intended to, would be to create at least the impression of being a con, or a cult, just like scientology.

Not to mention that, as a Christian, for Star Wars to be a religion would exclude me. I love Star Wars, as entertainment, but I would never give up Christianity for Star Wars. And before Jon says I wouldn't have to because Star Wars espouses much of the same moral values, I would like to point this out -- a fabric of both Judaism and Christianity. Commandment Number One: "I am the Lord thy God. Thy shalt have no other gods before me."

Jedieb

Mar 12th, 2001, 09:38:24 PM

Sorry I’ve been away for a couple of days. Sundays are pretty hectic sometimes at Casa de Jedieb. Especially when the weather is nice and we get to take the little one to the
park. What ever online time I’ve had has been reserved for tracking some e-bay auctions and the occasional quick post. I haven’t had time for anything long and drawn out. Now back into the fray!

“OK I'd like to say one thing before I continue. Jedieb is right, my sentence was poorly stated and it sounded like I meant that religions never have God's, instead of what I meant to say, which is that religion "does not necessarily mean the belief in a God."
Sorry about that, I apologize, I was typing too fast and not making myself clear.

But as pointed out before, your sentence also made it sound like religions *must* involve worship of a God, lol, so I think we both screwed up...”
Fair enough! :)

I think Darth23 and Jon both made good points about SW and Star Trek. I think many people see SW and Star Trek in the same light. But at the same time, these people more likely than not WILL go to the opening of a brand new SW movie. They just won’t log in multiple viewings. They’ll go because of the event that a SW movie is. You can’t say that
about Trek films or TV shows. Don’t get me wrong, I like Star Trek. But it doesn’t have the universal appeal that SW does. Star Trek does have a strong moral message and to
their credit the various television series have tackled more diverse and controversial issues than the SW movies. Anyone here ever see a SW movie deal with subjects like gay
rights and euthanasia? But that’s more a product of ST having close to 1,000 hours of programming to deal with those issues. Nevertheless, the SW films appeal to sci-fi fans and non sci-fi fans. Trek has trouble making that claim.

Gone With the Wind isn't dead, is it? People still watch it today, it still commands the respect of moviegoers and critics alike, yet it's 61 years old (and a few months).
The Star Wars movies are probably about three times more popular today than they were in 1983, so the passage of time is only increasing interest.

Yeah, but the SW movies weren’t as popular in 1989 as they were in 1983. And they won’t be as popular in 2009 as they will be in 2005. The interest will taper off, it’s
inevitable. I’ll give you an example. My students have always known I’m a huge SW fan because of the various SW items they could see throughout the room. The year before
TPM came out I had my End of the Year movie party. I let the kids choose from about 10 movies. Of course I put the OT on the board. The SW movies came in close to the bottom of the list. They were even beat out by cheesy movies like The Big Green (some bad kiddy soccer movie whose name I’m probably screwing up.)
GWTW is a good example of what will happen to SW. The movie is still considered a classic and its dialogue is still often quoted. (Frankly my dear, I don’t give a damn!” “I’ll
never be poor again!”) But it’s not the red hot movie that it once was, and this is despite the fact that it’s the all time BO champ when you adjust for inflation. Generations come and go and they crave something NEW. When this generation needed a new sappy love story to make BO history they didn’t latch on to a GWTW re-release, they clamped down on the BOAT flick. (shudder....) :p (Oh, I liked Titanic, I’m just making a point!} New generations will
“discover” SW and enjoy the films, but seeing EP1-6 on video isn’t the same thing as being in the middle of their BO runs. SW is just going to move to the back burner the way other classics have; Godfather, Casablanca, GWTW, etc. They’re still a part of our culture and who we are, but they’re not on the front page anymore.

Doc Milo said

“Don't Buddhists believe the cow is sacred or something (I could be mixing that up.) If not, I think they may worship their philosophy.

I think of the cow as sacred myself. Actually, cows worship me and sacrifice themselves to me on a regular basis. I just enjoyed a sacrificial offering for dinner. Yummy burgers... ;)
I agree with Doc that SW will never grow to the point where large masses of people and governments will accept it as a religion. And I certainly don’t want it to. That
was never its intent. While Lucas PURPOSELY wove religious themes and messages throughout the SW films, he never did this to provide a set of rituals and beliefs for children or adults to follow religously. He thought it was important to have strong moral messages in SW, but SW was never meant to supplant any religion. He’s discussed this topic in interviews before. I think the Bill Moyers interview in which they discussed Joseph Campbell and the importance of myths is the one I’m thinking of.

Another quick note about how “outsiders” view SW and Star Trek. If a couple of people drive by a convention and see 3 guys dressed up in X-Wing flight suits, they’re not saying; “Holy crap, I better leave my prophylactics at home tonight, those guys are snatching up all tail in town tonight!”
They’re more likely than not saying;
Driver: “Look at those Star Trek geeks!”
Passenger: “No, those are Star Wars fans.”
Driver: “There’s a difference?”

To many casual moviegoers, SW and ST are just 2 different franchises. But as I’ve stated before, these same moviegoers are more than likely to catch the release of ANY SW movie that hits theaters. They just won’t go online to buy a vintage Jabba the Hutt ROTJ playset, MIB (Something which yours truly just did today.) And I’ll tell you one thing, if I were still single I sure as hell wouldn’t use this as an opening line;
“Hi, I just set up a vintage Jabba the Hutt ROTJ playset that I bought on ebay in my SW room. Do you wanna come over and check it out?”
A line like that would GUARANTEE that I would NEVER see a women naked in my bedroom again! No matter how devilishly
handsome I happen to be! ;)

JonathanLB

Mar 13th, 2001, 05:28:25 AM

haha, that's pretty funny Jedieb. I agree with that. That's a pretty nerdy thing to say, hehe, but it cracks me up.

Ok, well I agree that I wouldn't want Star Wars to become a religion in the sense that it would be like Scientology, but I mean from a "closet" perspective, it already is a religion in many ways. But I'd rather have it stay as it is now then become some weird freaky cult of insane fans who watch a Star Wars movie every day while playing with their toys and acting out each scene while spouting praise for Lord Lucas or something, haha.

I don't agree with you, Jedieb, that Star Wars will fade. I just don't believe that, Star Wars is forever. People will continue to love and admire the saga as they always have, and that is what sets it apart from all previous movies and movie series'. I guess that is where we differ. You think it will fade into the twilight, I think there is no end to the popularity of the saga. People live a long, long time, and they won't forget about Star Wars. Have you seen what die hard fans we have in our midst? Even someone like me, my fandom will only increase, or at least what I spend on it!! lol.

Wait until some of these "new generation" Star Wars fans grow up and gain a more expendible income, I think you'll see yet another wave of interest. I just don't see the situation as you do, I think that continued re-releases, careful nurturing of the saga by LFL, and continues fan interest will keep the saga alive for, basically, an eternity.

I think the same is true of both Star Trek AND James Bond. Bond will never die, he will only change to meet the times, be sold to a new studio, you name it, but Bond is forever. Star Trek, while not my favorite thing, will never die either. There will always be a small group interested in it, and they will be VERY die hard, VERY committed. I see a waning interest in Star Trek now, but all it takes is some creativity to bring it back to prominence, maybe even a new golden era for the series if they could just ditch the geeky image (I know, maybe impossible) and create some great new TV show...

Anyway, great discussion I think, I enjoyed reading other people's comments here.

JMC, don't fall prey to having people group you with ME! I am evil, you do not want that, haha :)

Doc Milo

Mar 13th, 2001, 03:46:07 PM

Jon, one thing about Star Trek and Bond that will keep them alive is that they keep coming out with new movies.

Star Wars is going to be six movies. And that's it. (Unless when Lucas dies, whoever gets the rights afterwards decides to continue making movies.)

Star Trek and Bond have new movies given to their fans just about every two years more or less. As Star Wars goes on after 2005, it will decrease in popularity because the only thing new coming out will be novels -- and many Star Wars fans don't even consider the EU "Star Wars." (I don't consider myself in that category, but I do make a distinction between EU and Canon movies.)

So there is every possibility that interest in Star Wars will fade over time.

It's impossible to predict, though. It will depend a great deal on how the marketing is handled, and what newer sci-fi/fantasy/adventure/myth comes out that can command the same type of attention as Star Wars. These phenomena are rare, and Star Wars is probably the one for the generation of fans spanning from the late 70s to the early 2000s.

But rare doesn't mean "never again" will such a phenomenon happen. And when it does, older phenoms usually get relegated to the "Hall of Fame" where their memory lives on, but the world has moved on to the next best thing....

Darth23

Mar 13th, 2001, 08:08:32 PM

Star Wars is a Religion. We have a Higher Power (the Force). We have a head of the church - Goerge Lucas. We have rituals (watching the movies on video, quoting the Holy Blessed Holy Text - lines from the film - in everyday situations.)

We have Altars (shelves and diaramas with action figures) There are True Believers, Heretics (TPM Bashers), Infidels (Trekkies), and of course, the unwashed Masses who need to be converted.

Our High Holy Day is the Wednesday before Memorial Day, and or Calendar begins Wednesday, May 25, 1977.

Like many religions, it has it's roots in other faiths, but this one is also firmly connected to two of the most popular belief systems around today - Commercial Consumerism and The Entertainment Media.

;)

JonathanLB

Mar 13th, 2001, 10:20:32 PM

haha, that was a GREAT post. lol, exactly what I was thinking.

My calender system sets May 25, 1977 as the year 0, and each year after is 1 ASW, 2 ASW, etc. (After Star Wars). Then everything before is BSW.

Personally, I'd rather use that system, since the current year has no meaning to me. 2001 years ago what? Jesus rose from the dead or something? Whatever, I don't believe any of that, so the year has no meaning to me, and to many people, other than the fact that people recognize it and it would be pointless and annoying to change it now.

Still, I prefer the ASW-BSW system :)

Well, I disagree with the idea that just because there are not new movies, something has to fade. That doesn't make sense for Star Wars. Once a fan, always a fan, I think most people feel that way about themselves at least, and I know that I do.

Jedieb made the point that Star Wars fandom in 1989 was less than 1983. I don't agree with that. I think that the hype and frenzy in 1983 was 1000 times (literally) greater than in 1989, but there were far, far more fans in 1989. If you just look at the poll results on StarWars.com, 1 in 5 current fans who voted in that poll became fans during the "dark times" in the late 1980's. That's *a lot* of new fans. I don't think the existing fans became any less Star Wars fans, do you? The true fans were still there, they may have moved onto other things *too*, but they never abandoned Star Wars, and most of them still enjoyed the trilogy just as much as they always had. The only difference was no new movies to look forward to at the time. I don't think the fan base dwindled, I just think that the public face of Star Wars dwindled.

There really wasn't much going on with Star Wars, there wasn't hardly anything at all. Nevertheless, it was like a room filled with smoke and no oxygen; open the door and you've never seen such a huge fireball in all of your life. In 1991, when the door was opened, so to speak, with the release of Heir to the Empire, every analyst and Lucasfilm employee was stunned at the response to just a novel based on the movies. That book became the #1 New York Times Bestseller for something like 12 weeks, and we're talking about a sci-fi book here. It sold over 1.5 million copies. The interest was always there, it had never disappeared, but it just was masked, and it wasn't nearly so obvious. If you had released a movie in 1989, do you think it would have done poorly? I guess that's the question, and I'd tell you definitely not; it would have done awesome!

So, the same fan base was there, and even increasing, but Star Wars had to go through one partial death before becoming eternal.

Every phenomenon or fad (in the case of Pokemon, Titanic, etc.) eventually fades away, or seemingly, and then only the great ones return, and when they do, they are always there to stay. Star Wars could have been 1977 - 1985 R.I.P., but instead it rose back to popularity and will continue to command a large following and respect from film fans everywhere forever.

My message to you would only be that you don't have to let Star Wars fade, and you don't have to accept that it ever will. I don't accept that, because it won't happen. If the millions of Star Wars fans around continue to be interested in the saga, video games based on it, books, re-released movies, etc, then nobody says interest has to fade to nothing. Yes, in the general public it won't be as frenzied as with a brand new movie coming out, but at least the true fans will always be around to enjoy the saga.

Anyway, have a nice day, I'm going to go work on some query letters, I finished my Phantom Menace book a few weeks ago and I'm looking for an agent, which is definitely the hard part too!

Jedi Master Kyle

Mar 14th, 2001, 12:43:35 AM

I think Star Wars eventually will be remembered only as the most popular and respected movies of it's era.
We witnessed the popularity of Star Wars fade in the late 80's after all the waves of action figures were done. I think a few years after episode 3 we'll see star wars wane until a re-release is set. Axl Rose said it best: "Nothing lasts forever..." I can't believe I just did that...:)

Darth23

Mar 14th, 2001, 02:20:01 AM

Well the Wizard of Oz is still popular, and that's only on movie...

Doc Milo

Mar 14th, 2001, 02:48:42 AM

I can understand what you're saying, Jon.

And to some extent I agree and to some I disagree.

Look at Greek Mythology. It is still around. People still enjoy the stories. It lasts because most of it is great works of literature and epic poems that have action, adventure, and universal themes involving morality and life's questions.

But when is the last time you talked about a Greek Myth? How many times have you read the Illiad or the Odyssey? When's the last time you heard about people meeting in a convention, dressed like Medussa or Zeus? If it does happen, its more people dressed like Xena and Gabrielle -- not really classic Greek Mythology there...

Star Wars is a myth fashioned, in many ways, in that type of mold, only modernized for a new generation, tapping into the types of adventure about which the people of that generation dream.

So, in a sense, Star Wars will stand the test of time. I just don't think it will be as popular -- or, more precisely, as voiceferous -- as it is during its initial run.

Look at the message boards. When TPM was in its run, you could go to any of them and find hundreds of messages per day of people talking about it. But as time goes on, less people talk about the movies, there are days I can go to the boards, here and elsewhere, and not have a message to read at all. Are there less fans? No. But there is less interest in talking about the films until new things happen regarding the films.

The interest will wax and wane as the films come out and there will be lulls between the films. But when there will be no more films, what happens then? There will be interest for a while, when there are re-releases, new books coming out, etc... But the franchise will not continue on forever. There will be a time in the future when there will be no more books, no more movies, no more video games. Will it happen soon? No. But it will happen.

There won't be less fans, we know that. But the fans' interest in talking about the saga will grow less and less . . . as that happens, the presence of Star Wars will fade -- not on an individual level, but on a "social" level.

Star Wars will always have a place in history -- especially the history of film, because it was a breakthrough in how this kind of a story could be told on film.

But will it "last forever?" Is it "eternal?"

Eternity is a very long time, Jon. So the answer is, No.

Jedieb

Mar 14th, 2001, 03:29:30 PM

Doc's last couple of posts have brought out good points as to what will happen to fan interest once the movies have come and gone. The interest is bound to dwindle. Bond and Star Trek have new movies to generate interest every few years. I think Bond is in better shape than Trek because it has shown the ability to succeed after repeated significant casting changes. While the TNG crew is doing a fine job of carrying on the franchise there's no cast set in place to replace them. So Trek's long term future is more uncertain.

SW has none of this going for it. Both Trek and Bond are studio run franchises. Because Lucas has managed to maintain control of his baby, 20th Fox is unable to crank out a new SW flick whenever it wants. (Something I see as a HUGE benefit.) Without new movies to generate a buzz fan interest can only go so far. Look at this board. Right now we have a certain level of activity mainly because we're in an off year, but still in the middle of the prequel run. Next spring the excitement of EP2 will increase the activity here. Next summer this place will be positively bursting with activity as we track the grosses and discuss plot and characters on a daily basis. But eventually, the posts will slow down and then dwindle to the level they're at now. And then the cycle will start all over for EP3. Everything runs out of gas eventually. :(

Now does this mean everyone here will stop being SW fans in 2010? No of course not, but you won't be thinking about it everyday like you are now. That's just inevitable. There's only so many times you can discuss Luke's battle on the sail barge. It's not something you can talk about EVERY day. You might have found yourself talking about it all summer long back in 83, but you certainly weren't talking about it during the summer of 89.

This decline is only natural and really not a negative aspect of SW. I certainly don't see it as my JOB to carry on the crusade. I would never push SW on my kids or students. One would be unethical and the other borderline child abuse. ;) If my kids don't like SW then so be it. Hell, they're out the door when they're 18 anyway! What will probably happen is that my son will be more into it than my daughter, but even he won't be all that fired up about SW when he's 13 because there just won't be anything going on in 2011. Even if he's reading SW novels along with his dad, it won't be the same as going down to the multiplex to see Jedi in action.

Jedi Master Carr

Mar 14th, 2001, 03:46:30 PM

I agree partly but there could be a few things to help keep Star Wars in the mainstream. For example I read in an interview recently that Lucas wants to get into Telvision when the movies are done. He also mentioned that when the internet and TV eventually becomes joined (which is getting closer) he invisions creating a Star Wars channel dedicated to news and such. Not sure what else would be on maybe he could creat an anthology series something that theforce.net has brought up before. There are so many characters in the Star Wars universe that I could see stories dealing with Bounty Hunters, farmers, rebel Guerrials, etc without dealing much with movie characters. I could also see animated movies as a possibility maybe he could makes some of the EU novels into animated movies there are so many of them that would keep us occupied for a long time.

Darth23

Mar 14th, 2001, 07:32:49 PM

But will it "last forever?" Is it "eternal?"

Eternity is a very long time, Jon. So the answer is, No.

Why do I suddenly feel like singing My Jedi Heart Will Go on?

;) :p

JonathanLB

Mar 14th, 2001, 09:56:28 PM

Ok, well all excellent points, so thanks again for continuing a great discussion.

You know, I love it that Lucas controls the movies too, and I never want to see a Star Wars movie created without Lucas's full approval and influence.

Nevertheless, I actually would support a television show that sort of spins off from something in the SW universe, or even creates a new series of planets and has a general Star Wars feel to it, but without the main characters.

Star Wars is a HUGE universe, as we all know, and I think those possibilities exist for keeping interest alive, even without any more films. I support Star Wars television shows in the future, even without Lucas's influence, because I don't think they would cheapen the Star Wars name (Lucasfilm doesn't put their trademark on crap usually, if you know what I mean). Also, as long as they stay well away from any of the main plotlines from the movies, then I'm ok with it.

On one extreme, I'd even support future Star Wars movies that took place in the galaxy but had no relation to the rebellion, Luke, Anakin, Han, etc. etc. For instance, some planet far away from the main action and a fairly unrelated story. Although, I think I'd prefer to have just SIX absolute masterpieces then six great movies and then a series of "good" films or "enjoyable" films that really are not that special. Star Wars is special. So, I'd have to think further about any SW movies beyond the first six episodes, at the least I'd say no more "episodes," if there are going to be other SW films, unless Lucas makes them of course, then it's ok (like if he came back in 2015 and really wanted to return, for one last time, to Star Wars, and made a seventh episode occuring 100 years after ROTJ or whatever).

Star Wars is forever, though, and I will explain why in a few sentences. Because of Star Wars, the entire movie industry has changed in tens of ways. The impact and influence of the films reaches far beyond that of any other series of movies, and regardless of whether anyone even remembers the words "Star Wars," their influence is now inseparable from our film industry. So, in a way, there is no question that Star Wars is forever.

I don't really agree with your statement that I won't think about Star Wars every day in 2010. Right now, I don't dwell on Star Wars, but I do dwell on my book I guess (spend hours per day on it now, trying to find an agent for instance), but even when there is nothing going on, I always at least think of Star Wars once during each day. I love the movies, and no matter how far into the future you go, as long as I am here, I will think about Star Wars and continue to enjoy the movies. I still notice and learn new things about the saga every year, sometimes every day. There really is always more to learn, at least that's what I believe.

I fully agree that Bond is much more alive than Trek, but both franchises sort of "died" once, or at least were partially unconcious for a while! Trek had its first death long ago, then has done fairly well since, but never really achieved that mainstream success with the movies or with the television shows (notice how they don't play on Fox, NBC, ABC, or CBS...).

Bond is really back and better than ever in terms of popularity and success. You may or may not have liked one or two of the last few movies, but they really were box office monsters considering, and they are basically guaranteed hits for the studio. Easy $100 million profit or more by the time all is said and done. Add $300 million worldwide box office to another $100 million from videos, rentals, DVDs and TV rights and you're up to probably around half of a billion including merchandising deals. Also, the product tie-ins help finance the movies in some ways too, which is really smart. Bond is a great, strong franchise.

As powerful and massive as the Star Wars franchise is, you have to respect Bond for its incredible endurance! 19 frickin' movies and still going strong, that's just insane. I really doubt that any movie franchise will ever top Bond. Bond isn't even finished yet, nor do I think it EVER will be finished.

Think about it here. Ok, so 4 Bond movies from now, the series is in trouble. 22 and 23 bombed at the box office, or at least were not real successful. Now, there are no plans for a 24 or anymore Bond...

Ok, fine, but ten years later someone is going to say, "You know, hell, if these movies could succeed for nearly 50 years, then damnit I can make a 24th Bond movie for the NEW generation that will attract nostalgic moviegoers and interested new teenagers alike! This will work, and I will revive Bond with the best new action director and a handsome, smooth young star."

There is just no way Bond would stay dead, because it is WAY too financially viable to remain down for the count. Sure, it could go through a period of ten years, even fifteen years without a new movie, and with no activity, but sooner or later, someone will pick it up, dust it off, and revive it, lol. That's how these things work.

Anyway, good discussion, nap time for me, haha, it was a late one last night :(

Darth23

Mar 15th, 2001, 07:46:08 PM

Wouldn't it be sick if 200 years from now, Star Wars actually WAS a religion?

(Sound like a fan film idea to me) :)

Jedieb

Mar 15th, 2001, 08:04:16 PM

Jon's made some really good points about the Bond franchise. There really is no other beast quite like it. Even without cold war tensions the series keeps plugging along. The Brosnan films have revived the series after the dissapointing Dalton films. The blame shouldn't fall squarely on Dalton for the mediocre performance of his Bond films. The movies just kind of lost their focus. They were trying to make Bond way too caring and feeling. Even if NBC hadn't screwed Brosnan out of the role in the 80's I think The Living Daylights and License To Kill still wouldn't have done well. That was probably the series' lowest point and it still managed to survive.

But like any series, it could still get screwed up. Look at what happen to Batman. Everything was going reasonably well until Schumacher(sp?) lost his mind and tried to do an updated version of the Adam West TV series. Idiot. >( Maybe the series can get revived with a new director and a change of focus. They should stick to the more adult aspects of Batman and stay away from the campy crap Schmucker (that one I did on purpose) unleashed on us. Can anyone say 'Return of the Dark Knight'? But the prospects for Bond look bright. It would be really hard to screw that series up.

As for what kind of SW series I'd like to see, I'd have to say animated series would suit me just fine. That's the only cost effective way I can see someone visiting the SW galaxy on a weekly basis and doing it justice. But I'd like to see it done right. Not with the crappy animation you see on Sarturday morning cartoons. Give some anime style SW! The Manga comics are a perfect example of what I'm talking about. Anyone whose seen these knows what I'm talking about. Wouldn't you LOVE to see Luke, Han, & Leia or the EP1 cast in that format? I know I would. They could stick to timelines that fall between the movies or after when apropriate.

JonathanLB

Mar 15th, 2001, 09:12:56 PM

That's a cool idea, I like that, more like the Gundam Wing type animation then the X-Men type animation you mean? I like the Japanese style much better...ours is too bland I think.

Animated would probably work the best, and you're right...you couldn't make a cost-effective Star Wars TV show, not really, not unless the ratings were like 50.0 each time, haha, then you could do it. That could happen if it were a 4-part miniseries or something, then you'd have incredible ratings, but not for an ongoing show (TV is so tough! Most every show, even the good ones, are cancelled within a year or less. Amazingly competitive and unforgiving).

Bond could definitely be screwed up still, but I think that if they do screw it up, then eventually they'd return and make things right again, just as they seem to have done with Brosnan now versus Dalton earlier.

You're totally right about Batman, what the hell was that crap we got last time? I hated that movie. It was so terrible I didn't even bother seeing it in theaters, and when I saw it on video I was ultra disappointed. That movie was lame. I even enjoyed Batman Forever, I thought it was still a good film (not close to the first two though), but Batman & Robin SUCKED hard. The box office accurately reflected that movie's quality.

So far, I will admit, Star Wars has stunk up the television airwaves, haha. Damn, the Ewok special sucked, and I never watched the droids thing, but I hear the x-mas special is absolutely TERRIBLE, and even Lucas disowns it (he had no part in that crap anyway), and he basically will not allow it to be released and hardly will admit that it even exists, hehe.

Star Wars, so far, is batting 0.000 on the TV front, lol :)

Ah well, doesn't matter, the films are awesome and that's really the only thing I care about (though I enjoy the books, it doesn't bother me that some of them, frankly, suck, and others are only mediocre, but some actually are great reading).

It would be quite an honor to be given the opportunity to write a sci-fi book in the Star Wars universe. Although, it sounds a bit restricting to me, they really tell you exactly what they want in the book, and it's all so well structured that as an author you'd be kind of choked. Then again, you're probably being paid VERY WELL and you have an automatic best-seller (according to articles I read, every Star Wars novel has been a national "best-seller"). And, of course, you get to add to the Star Wars universe, so I guess the benefits outweigh the drawbacks.

Jedieb

Mar 15th, 2001, 11:52:25 PM

Gundam style animation is exactly what I'm talking about. Believe me, I'm no anime expert, but some of these series are simply breathtaking. By comparison you look at cartoon shows on Fox Kids and the drawings look downright cheap and clunky. (The X-Men series in particular.) The Japanese stuff just LOOKS so much better. I'd love to see places like Dagobah or Coruscant given an anime treatment. There's no way a live action TV series could bring you those sites on a weekly budget. We've been spoiled by Lucas and company. $100M plus for 2 hours of entertainment! Even the most expensive 1 hour TV show is in the $10M-$15M range. And that's only for heavyweights like ER. Most of the budget goes to cast members and the producers, it doesn't get spent on what you see on the tube.

Star Wars TV
I'm glad you said it Jon, cuz I didn't want to be the one, but the Ewok movies did suck! And I saw them with innocent 14 year old eyes and I still didn't like them. The characters were boring and the young male lead in the first Ewok movie was a HORRIBLE actor. I couldn't stand him. The animated series were okay. I actually liked the Ewok cartoon. The Droids cartoon just made me nostalgic for Luke, Han, & Leia. They were the ones I wanted to see, not the droids!

Batman
We're on the same page for Batman. Quite a few people trashed Batman Forever, but I thought it was okay. It would have been BETTER IMO if they had let Billy Dee Williams play Harvey Dent. He was Harvey in the first Batman and he deserved a shot at the character's transformation into Two Face. They could have done some interesting work with his costume and his makeup. They could have colored his scarred side a macabe white and used the same color scheme the animated series has used. The purple suit they gave him just didn't do it for me. Unfortunately, I did catch Batman and Robin at a theater near me. :( When Clooney whipped out the Bat Credit Card I almost walked out of the theater. People in the theater actually groaned. Shudder...

SW Books
I've read just about everything that's come down the pike and I'd have to say the majority of it is pretty good. They do sell very well and you can thank the SW name for that. Although I do get annoyed when certain authors take their favorite pet characters and try to place them above OT characters. I know everything can't be about Luke, Han, & Leia, but when an author starts making Corran Horn out to be more important than Luke it's all I can do to turn the page without crying out; "Oh BULLSH...!" Some of the weaker novels have brought us characters people LOVE to hate. Just mention the name Calista on any EU board you'll see the hate begin to swell!

Talk to ya soon Jon, I've really enjoyed these last few posts.

JonathanLB

Mar 16th, 2001, 12:20:26 AM

haha, yeah Corran Horn, I remember our discussions on CC.net with Palpatine saying he's just a Luke clone.

I actually really enjoyed the Jedi Academy trilogy, and of course I thought the Zahn books were real interesting, but Truce at Bakura was way too much like Star Trek, not a very good book at all. I mean, sometimes the authors (they are sci-fi authors after all) try to make the books too technical, not enough emphasis on the mythology and mystic nature of the Star Wars universe, too much about how "this ship has Ion-repulsar-firing 45i rockets" or whatever, haha, some techno nonsense.

I'm usually entertained by the books. I've only read about 9 or 10 of them I think, then I listened to about 8 more on those books on tape versions, not obviously as complete as the books, but I figured it would give me some idea what happened and they are actually pretty relaxing. When I study for three hours or whatever, then want to go to bed, I don't really feel much like reading more because I've probably already been reading, so listening to someone else tell the story is nice sometimes, hehe. The lazy man's guide to Star Wars ;)

For Star Wars books, I always prefer the nonfiction type books and the reference books are interesting too. Does anyone here have the $150 Star Wars Chronicles book? That is so nice, what an incredible assortment of pictures and facts, but it's the most expensive book I own by far.

I love "The Essential Guides," those are always cool, hehe. If the Star Wars movies are the gospels, then the Essential Guides are like prophets books or something, haha.

I would have to say, honestly, my favorite Star Wars book is "The Illustrated Star Wars Universe." I seem to have 1 hardbound copy, and 2 paperbacks (? I don't know why I have 2...). Basically, if you don't have it, it's a collection of pictures by Ralph McQuarrie, but with text by Kevin J. Anderson I think, and the stories are really awesome. They're all short stories taking place on the different planets of the universe (as seen in the films), but told from the perspectives of different characters. For instance, Coruscant through the eyes of an imperial bureaucrat. It's great because it's so biased, he describes Palpatine as such a caring, loving emperor who is absolutely appalled by any suffering on the planet, blah blah blah. Still, it makes you feel like you really are on Coruscant, the descriptions are so good. The cloud city one is sweet too, but the Dagobah one is actually like a short horror story of a science crew that went to Dagobah, documented some of the life on the planet in journal format, and then one day the log ends...and it says no trace of the science crew was ever found, lol. It's an awesome book.

A Star Wars cartoon show would really be neat, I hope maybe Lucas considers authorizing something like that in the future, I'd watch anyway :)

More like "animated show," though, not cartoon. It could still be PG without having super lame voice overs and all that. I hate it when you see something like Gundam Wing, which often has a fairly good plot, and you get characters talking like morons, it basically offends your intelligence for even watching it, lol.

Jedieb

Mar 17th, 2001, 12:48:28 AM

If you don't like the more technical books then stay away from the Rogue Squadron series. Sometimes Stackpole would spend 5 pages detailing dogfight manuevers. The books sounded more like pilot manuals than SW novels. And not only was there Corran worshiping going on but Wedge was treated like a god. I remember reading one passage in which Corran thought to himself;
"These rogue pilots are much more special and braver than any Jedi. The Jedi have the force, these guys have nothing but their wits and reflexes."
That's not an exact quote, but it's pretty much what the character was saying. It's that kind of attitude that made me lose interest in the series. I didn't even finish reading the last 2 I bought. (Wraith series #?)

I really don't like the non-fiction books that much. I didn't buy any of the EP1 DK books and I've stayed away from most of the essesntial books. I do have the SW Chronicles. That books is simply breathtaking. The foldouts are gorgeous! I got my copy at the Smitsonian exhibit in D.C. By coincidence, I was just looking at it last week after having it tucked away in a closet for a couple of years. (It's dangerous to have a $150 book lying around the house with a 2 year old on the loose.) And I agree with you, the Illustrated SW Universe is a winner. I bought it because I've always loved Ralph M.'s SW work. I had the ROTJ portfolio when I was a kid and I had all of the pictures hung up on my bedroom wall for years. I still have it somewhere in my SW room. I may wait on some of those Essential books. Maybe when the prequels are done and "complete" essential guides start getting cranked out. But new characters get added to the SW universe so often that it seems an essential book is outdated months after it's released.

I don't watch Gundam that much because it's one of those things you have to catch at the start or you have NO idea what's going on. I wouldn't be so hard on the dialogue. The episodes are being dubbed from another language so something is bound to get lost. I know whenever I see an English movie dubbed in Spanish I pick up on some really weird translations. You never get a word for word translation, it's impossible. Plus, a lot of these episodes get hacked up when they're shown in the U.S. I know DragonballZ gets edited quite a bit.