TPM falling further and further behind Titanic ... [Archive]

JonathanLB

Nov 1st, 1999, 11:28:23 PM

Where did you read that? Anyway, about the comment "it takes a true fan to admit blah blah blah," etc. That really isn't true, there are clean objective reasons why TPM wasn't able to pass Titanic, and they should be looked at, not ignored. As a SW fan you should want to have legitimate proof that TPM really was at a disadvantage against Titanic. It isn't for reasons of popularity or quality that one movie made more, it is mainly because of the competition, the media backlash, and anticipation that hurt the movie. I don't necessarily think that TPM would have beaten Titanic, but it very well may have. Here is a Variety article pertaining to the period of Titanic's release. Actually, this is a small part of a larger article ----------------------------------------------- Weak product Just as importantly, AMC blames the film product, which “aside from ‘Titanic’ has been weak and attendance per screen will likely be lower than last year,” Lehman Bros. analyst Alison Sachs said in a report this week. The attendance loss is severe at AMC’s older theaters, which are competing with AMC’s new megaplexes and those of competing exhibs. AMC’s VP of finance, Craig Ramsey, confirmed one analyst’s estimate that the “bottom third” of AMC’s circuit, or about 700-800 screens, suffered a 26% drop in attendance in the quarter, while the newer megaplexes had flat attendance on last year. AMC’s senior VP for national film settlements, Doug Stone, confirmed film product didn’t perform as well as last year’s March quarter for AMC. “I don’t think anybody is real upset about the numbers, but they’re probably not as good as people wanted them to be, given the magnitude of the grosses on ‘Titanic,’” Stone said. ----------------------------------------------- The competition against Titanic was so weak, it really had the best opportunies to prosper in a fading marketplace. The Phantom Menace, on the other hand, was swamped with competition. Within Titanic's first 14 weeks, only 1 movie made over $20 million in a single weekend besides Titanic, and that was James Bond 18 (TND). Within TPM's first 14 weeks, there were some 15+ movies above $20 million in a weekend, and even AP2 which had 2 weekends over that. Then there was the fact that AP2 made over $50, Big Daddy over $40, and a few others over $30. This doesn't even compare with the competition Titanic had, which was so weak as to be laughable.

Kyp Durron

Nov 2nd, 1999, 01:48:24 PM

I agree...you're right about Titanic having no competition whatsoever. I have argued the same things before. I guess what I'm thinking is, how about at the end of this mega-blockbuster summer, where there were very little competition out there? I'm just irked that Titanic was out for about 8 months, and in its 4-5 month time after release was still making millions every weekend, while TPM after 4-5 months was barely making 1 million. I mean, believe me, I'm no Titanic fan, but I must say that it made an impressive run. Of course, that's not taking away from TPM's even more impressive run against all odds. I just wish it lasted longer.

JonathanLB

Nov 3rd, 1999, 04:11:44 AM

It's ok. The Sixth Sense is good evidence of what can happen with little competition. Every week you think it might drop out of the top 10 because of the new releases, but it doesn't. The reason is, the other movies keep falling so fast that SS can stand above them. The same thing happened with TPM, BUT (big but), the other movies opened way bigger and there were more of them. If a movie opens at $14 million, and SS made $3 million, that's a small difference compared to if, say, a movie opens against TPM and makes $40 million, and TPM makes $4 million.... Then, we got lots of movies opening all the time. It makes you wonder if maybe it would have been better (box office wise) to release TPM July 4th weekend, thus avoiding AP2, Tarzan, and Big Daddy (at least their opening weekends). Then, still the main part of the run would be during the summer while kids are out of school, but it would also have still been around into fall, and then it would have been pulled much later because fall movies would never have been able to push TPM so far down... I don't know, I think LFL and Fox did the right thing by opening it in May, but it just makes you think, that's all...

yoda900

Nov 3rd, 1999, 12:36:04 PM

I think the reaon that Titanic made so much after 4-5 months was the following reasons: 1. I swear they were advertising it and talking about it in the media during its entire run, thus people keep seeing it all the time as if it should be seen 2. February-March, it got all kinds of nominations and winning all kinds of awards, thus keeping the public even more interested. 3. (the real kicker): winning best picuture and capturing 10 other awards in the big one. Now we are into April-May, where people want to go see the movie of the year. 4. No compeition until May pretty much. AS for TPM. 1. Sure there was the toys, the movie tie-ins etc.. but how many commercials did anyone see advertising it? I saw no commercial of any kind. 2. Everyone tried bashing this movie in the media after hyping it up so much (a bunch of dolts they are) 3.The competition it had was kind of like the schedules the Big 10 conference football teams have this year. All the teams except for 1 or 2 are super excellent, but they still must play each other. Whereas Titanic was like one of those 12-0 teams that is a super team , but the rest of thier opponents are weak. 4. The number of movies that kept coming out kept on reducing the number of screens more rapidly than should have, despite TPM still beating movies. 5. I think if TPM had been number 1 vs . the opening of AP, it woud have easily been #1 6,7 weeks in a row, thus getting ots of attention, thus keeping it number one. That is what also happened with titanic. My guess is if thier roles were reversed , that is Titanic playing during this summer opening in May, and TPM opening last year on Xmas Titanic- $189M TPM - $720M

Kyp Durron

Nov 3rd, 1999, 02:16:41 PM

Yes, points well seen. I too believe that if Titanic came out during summer, it wouldn't have had the same success as it did...probably not even half the success. Also, I think that the successes of the movies following TPM's release were due to TPM itself. It made people go into the movie-going mode. That's why it's the biggest grossing movie summer ever.

Comrade Smoke

Nov 3rd, 1999, 04:18:37 PM

I've received much critics that Titanic and TPM's runs should not be compared. Or that Titanic was simply much better movie bla bla... Well it isn't really so. If we think all the odds that TPM was fighting against. It has been VERY succesfull. USA #3, Worldwide #3 and probably going to end up as #2 in worldwide. Just recently jumped back to TOP 20 in USA. It's quite phenomenal that it always seems to "strike back", never giving up. Well my 10th time is coming. Doesn't impress "SW veterans" who has seen 30+ times but for me it's quite much since it's well beyond my last record(2). But it's good that some fans point out the simple facts that were behind Titanics success.

JonathanLB

Nov 3rd, 1999, 11:16:00 PM

Never worry about people that have seen the movie more than you, and don't let them tell you it isn't impressive. 10 times seeing a Star Wars movie shows the signs of a true, very dedicated fan. That is you. So don't let people downplay seeing the movie that many times, that's a lot of times still. If every SW fan had your level of dedication the movie would have made more, I guarantee it. I saw it 34 times, but not everyone has that much time, and not everyone has the money either, and frankly not everyone wants to see it that many times! But I really enjoyed getting the chance to see it so many times, and I don't scoff at people who've seen it 5 or 6 times, that's really good. Now, when people say they've seen it 2 or 3 times, that doesn't impress me. I don't really care how many times they've seen it, but I just know that for me, that would be far too little...10 is awesome though. Next.. "4. The number of movies that kept coming out kept on reducing the number of screens more rapidly than should have, despite TPM still beating movies." Bingo. This one really hurt us, bad. Austin Powers 2 didn't hurt whatsoever, HOWEVER, it was Austin Powers 2 that started the whole thing. There was just movie after movie being released, and the smaller theaters with 6 screens had to push TPM off too early. Only the bigger multiplexes like 12 or 16 screens kept it through August. That's too bad, because it had the potential to make another $45 million if it wouldn't have been pulled from so many screens so rapidly. That's ok though, we'll get our re-release, and there is no reason anyone should feel like "oh it's a re-release though, it doesn't count." Look, it's money. It is money TPM has made, therefore of course it counts. Also, I bet you if they re-release TPM in December it will not officially be marked as a re-release. The problem here is, you cannot count something as a re-release unless ALL THEATERS across the United States are not playing the movie. So long as 50-100 theaters are playing it in December (which is likely), it will not go down as a re-release. Take the example of Return of the Jedi and Jurassic Park. In december, did you know, both of those movies made over $10 million, and that was after they had been released in May!!! Why did they make that much, you say? Was it because they still were on tons of screens? No. It was because prints were given back to the exhibs for one final big deal, and they took in a load of extra cash. At least, that is what I understand from HAL. For the record, of course, neither ROTJ or JP were actually "re-released," so if TPM made another $30 million and beat ANH, it would be official that it passed ANH in a single release, I believe.... Unless they are doing it differently now.

Atreyu

Nov 3rd, 1999, 11:44:28 PM

I've only seen TPM 3 times. I was going to see it a 4th, but the theatre in my town closed it earlier than expected, so that was that. :)

Comrade Smoke

Nov 4th, 1999, 02:59:26 PM

Thought Im not living in USA. Im really waiting for re-release just to see does TPM have enough of...whatever to beat ANH. Yes ANH is SW movie too, but I would like to see TPM taking #2 place in USA as it seems that it will take #2 place in worldwide and that's VERY GOOD. I mean #2 place! It's great run and becoming re-releases will eventually get TPM over Titanic, in USA, world-wide is a whole another case. I would say that 6 times is kind of enough. I think this is one of those rare movies that are getting better every time, it happened to me. So if you see it only 1 time. I don't think you are justified to judge it too seriously. You need more times to just get the idea. Because of this "rollercoaster effect", mesa thinks. First time doesn't give very much, not at least to me, but I was almost crying in drama scenes after 5 viewings. I can't remember really ever getting so emotional in movie, actually I never drop a tear, until now. Well perhaps in original trilogy.

jjwr

Nov 4th, 1999, 03:11:22 PM

I've seen it three times, and for me that was enough. No offense to those who have seen it 30+ times, but I think thats ridiculous, I could think of much better things to do with $250 or so dollars than to line the pockets of a billionaire. That and I do'nt want to get bored with TPM, I'll watch it a lot once its out on video, theres not doubt about that, but I'm not going to watch it every week, or every day, I'll just get bored with it that way, in 15 years when I watch TPM again I still want it to feel fun, but if I've seen it 200 times, then thats just not gonna happen. As far as box office totals go, Titanic was a phenomonon, it was a combo of a good movie, good timing, and a intangible that sent it to such heights. TPM was a blockbuster, flat out, there was no phenomonon(sp?) there, it was flat out summer blockbuster that everyone wanted to see, and like summer blockbuster's it faded, no big deal, everyone who wanted to had the chance to see it, it was a great movie, so who cares if it makes as much as Titanic.

Kyp Durron

Nov 4th, 1999, 04:04:53 PM

I agree that TPM was a blockbuster, but that's not all. It also had that 'intangible' aspect as much as Titanic had, maybe even more. No scratch that, a lot more. SW is a phenomenon, but you can't tell me that it's just a summer-of-99-phenomenon. No way. This movie had such an impact on everything: culture, generations, it changed advertising forever, not to mention merchendising, and even tourism. What other movie can have thousands of people from other countries come over here just so they can be part of its opening? And I don't believe TPM has faded either...not by a long shot. Titanic is a movie you would call a one-hit-wonder, much like Gone With The Wind. TPM will go on, believe me. Btw, I've seen it 12 times, and I don't see anything wrong with people watching it 30+ times. I've heard of Titanic fans just as devoted. Nothing wrong with getting a lot of what you love. To me, there's no such thing as 'too much of a good thing.'

jjwr

Nov 4th, 1999, 04:27:17 PM

I never said it didn't do all those things, I was speaking strictly box office numbers, before Titanic was released no one could have guessed it would have made 600+ million, but well before TPM was released everyone was saying 400+ million, or even that it would beat Titanic. Yes its box office was huge, but the movie itself wasn't a phenom, everyone(well most everyone) thought it would make that much, and it did. And as for the rest, I don't think TPM's impact on everything was that huge, Star Wars impact was however that huge, I think TPM is just reminding everyone about the original series. As far as changing advertising, hell Blair Witch changed advertising a lot more than TPM could have hoped to do, the toys and merchandising you get with at least one big movie every summer, but TPM was figured to be big enough that they put it on everything. TPM was a summer of 99 blockbuster, it won't go down as the most memorable SW movie or the one people think of when they think of Star Wars, I don't think TPM will go on anymore than any of the other SW movies, probably even less so than the originals, but the series as a whole is huge, Titanic can't even come close to touching that. Yes TPM made a lot of money, but it was expected, yes they did a ton of advertising, but when you've had people waiting 20yrs for this movie, was that much advertising and hype really needed?

Kyp Durron

Nov 4th, 1999, 06:19:57 PM

True that. TPM wasn't as big a phenomenon on the box office as expected. Although almost quadrupling its production cost was a great feat. As far as advertising is concerned, neither GL nor Fox hardly did any advertising for TPM. It was all media hype, fan-based hype, hardly any of it coming out of GL's pocket. As far as I'm concerned, it was TPM which started all this Internet related hyping. Blair Witch just followed suit.

jjwr

Nov 4th, 1999, 06:29:48 PM

I think it was as big as expected, and thats why it wasn't such a phenom that Titanic was. I agree that it didn't really need the advertising, and they didn't do any direct advertising, but between the toys, books, and various merchandise that might as well have been the advertising. And I don't really think it paved the way for Blair Witchs advertising, with a movie that people have been waiting for for 20yrs they're gonna talk about it, hype it up, etc, I think the internet was just a medium used for the hyping, but not a specific advertising like Blair Witch.

JonathanLB

Nov 4th, 1999, 09:25:37 PM

Kyp Durron is the one here who really knows what he's talking about. TPM changed a lot of things, and it was a true phenomenon in every sense of the word. Did you dictate, JJWR, that a phenomenon must be defined as "box office success," or that a phenomenon cannot be a movie that was huge before release? Since when have you ever seen the type of media attention bestowed on The Phantom Menace? Since never, and THAT my friend is a FACT. There has been no bigger movie in the history of motion pictures than The Phantom Menace. It was the most anticipated movie ever, and as well the biggest event in movie history. TPM is also the most profitable movie ever, far outstripping Titanic, the original Star Wars, Jurassic Park, or any other movie ever made. Never before has a movie had such a massive toy and merchandise campaign, and never before has a movie taken in $1 billion in merchandise sales within the same year of release. TPM will do that, and may already be very close to that mark... Titanic was a big deal, but what you're saying is really insane! You're saying that if the expectation was that Titanic would make $600 million, and it did make that much, it would not have been a phenomenon. That's friggin' crazy, and inaccurate. Is a movie defined as a phenomenon only by how it does compared to expectations? I don't believe so. Would Titanic's $600 million have been any less impressive if analysts expected it to do that well based on the large budget it had? Did you know that in a poll conducted on Yahoo.com, and yes I have a press release on this, over 50% of their users believed that TPM could make $1 billion at the US box office alone? So, are you trying to tell me that if TPM made $1 billion, it wouldn't have been impressive because most people already thought it would make that much? No way. TPM was not an average blockbuster, it ranks among the all time elite movie successes, it isn't a normal movie, and it isn't a normal blockbuster. EVERYTHING about that movie was phenomenal. The idea of people lining up for 30-45 days for a movie is awesome. The idea of people paying to see a trailer, is awesome. The idea of 1 million downloads in TWENTY FOUR HOURS for the 2nd trailer is awesome. These are all unprecented things. Never before has there been so much advance word, advance enthusiasm, and hype, on any movie before. It set some amazing records well before it was released. It's the biggest selling movie ever before release. The advance ticket sales far outstripped any movie in history. The declines of TPM at the box office were very good, and not matched by many other blockbusters. Only Jurassic Park had that good of staying power, and it was no better, just equal. But TPM sold more tickets. Trivia question: what summer movie in the 1990's sold more tickets than The Phantom Menace? ... Still guessing? You'll be guessing for a long time, and the reason is, there was none. TPM is the best selling summer movie of the 1990's, and yes I am talking about tickets, as in, adjusted for inflation. The only movie to come close was JP with about $409 million adjusted, still not that close to our final which will be probably $430 million or so. Biggest summer movie of the decade, and you claim it wasn't a phenomenon. Ok. I guess I'll just have to accept your "definition" of phenomenon, but I like mine much better, and I certainly think the facts are on my side. As for you making fun of the number of times I've seen TPM, that's rather sad. I'm a true Star Wars fan, so sue me if I love seeing the movies. That is what fans do for crying out loud. If there were more fans like me we'd not be discussing why TPM didn't beat Titanic, we'd be asking if Episode II had the same chance. If you want to see the SW movies only 3 times in theaters, that is totally your choice, and I don't care, if that is enough for you, that's great. Who am I to say how many times you should see them. But I am telling you now, after my 15th viewing I wasn't whatsoever satifisied. Nor am I now, I still want to see it more, and that's after 34 times. You CAN get bored of a movie, but we're talking about a new SW movie, and I've seen the originals probably over 75 times each, so I at least wanted to get my TPM "understanding" up to the level that the original trilogy is at... Like I said, you can see the SW movies as few times as you want and I won't comment, but you get way more out of them by seeing them more times. $250? Where do you live? It cost about $180 actually. That's not very much money whatsoever. Big deal, I spent over $3,000 on TPM merchandise and the year isn't even over.

Kyp Durron

Nov 4th, 1999, 09:41:32 PM

Thanks Jon :) I also want to add that TPM made more money before it was released than many, many other movies after their run was over...of course I'm talking about its deals with Pepsi Co. and Hasbro.

jjwr

Nov 5th, 1999, 10:43:57 AM

Sorry I guess I don't really know what I'm talking about, so I guess I should just stop here, nahhh. I'd ask to borrow your soapbox, but I'm tall enough and don't need it. TPM really didn't change anything, yes the marketing was huge, yes the merchandising was huge, but so what? Does that really change anything? There was the hype, but you wait 20yrs for the next installment of the movies that a lot of 15-25yr olds loved as kids, your gonna get that kinda hype. As to your question of a phenom, lots of movies are box office successes(Sixth Sense, AP2, etc) and quite a few other movies are huge before release(Godzilla), but I don't think that would make any of those a phenom. But what about Blair Witch? Cost $40,000 to make, was very amateurish, yet made $100+Million, I'd call that a phenom, It would probably be safe to say that BWP was the most profitable movie in history. Of course theres never been this much media attention, as I stated above the movie has been anticipated for 20yrs, its gonna be huge. As far as being a FACT, well TPM starred Leonardo DiCaprio and was about a race of giant slugs that lived in Paris, that my friend is also a FACT Now your getting a little ahead of yourself, the biggest movie event in the history of movies? Please, it was good, it made a lot of money, but seriously do you really think TPM will go down as the greatest movie ever made! I know you didnt' use those words, but you seemed to call it he greatest of everything else. Take off your TPM tinted sunglasses and realize that TPM isn't the best thing since sliced bread. Most profitable? Check out my BWP comment above. I agree with your point on TPM's merchandising, its huge, Lucas is gonna make a ton of money off all this when all is said and done. "You're saying that if the expectation was that Titanic would make $600 million, and it did make that much, it would not have been a phenomenon." Quoted from you Yes thats exactly what I'm saying. If when Titanic had come out everyone had heralded it as the best movie of year, its gonna win 10 oscars, its gonna make more than Star Wars by almost 150Million, instead of saying things along the line of its gonna flop, its a huge 200Million dollar risk, etc. My point was no one expected it to do anywhere near that good, yet it controlled the box office for almost half a year, domitated the oscars, broke almost all the box office records, sent people in droves tot he theatres to see it, etc, that is a phenom in my opinion. 1 Billion at the U.S Box office? IF(big if) it had made that much it would have been very impressive, and with that staggering of a amount you could probably call it a phenom, to make that much it would have had to have stayed at #1 for the whole year, which would have been incredible. But on your same standard, if so many people thought it was gonna make 1 Billion, and it made less than half of that, what does that say? By the same token it made half as much so its not a phenom right? All of the pre-release stuff was incredible, but I'd also point you to my above statments about the wait 20yr wait. You couple that with how much people love that movie and yoru gonna get that stuff, I personally wouldn't have done it, but I thought it was cool that people did that, but again I was talking about the box office run, in differnet places I said that SW in general was huge, and it is. Now bear with me for a second, do you think all those people were lining up for this movie because they heard about Darth Maul, and little Ani and the somewhat weak storyline, or because they loved SW as kids, they grew up playing with the SW toys, they've seen the movies tons of times and had waited 20yrs to see the next one? Honestly which was it? If Star Wars had never existed and TPM got released this summer, do you think it would have made 200 Million? Maybe, it was a good movie, but I bet it wouldn't have done anywhere near as well as it did without the lineage of the Original Trilogy. Heck they could have remade Big Top Pee -Wee in SW terms and released it as Episode 1 and it would have made 300+ Million. Trivia Question? Which movie released in 1997 sold more tickets and made more money then SW? I think we both know this one, and I'm not bashing SW, I love SW and loved TPM, but TPM is not the end all your making it out to be. I'm sure you won't agree with this, I've seen a number of your posts and you seem just a little biased towards the things you like, but TPM success was not because TPM was a great movie, it was because it was a Star Wars movie. I know that doesn't change how much it made, or who went to see it, I thought it was a great movie, but part of its run was because it was Star Wars. As for my definition of phenom, I like it, everone knew TPM was gonna make a lot of money, and it did, so whats the big deal? Just like a few years ago everyone knew the Bulls were gonna win the championship, and they did so were they a phenom? If something is expected its not as great of a feat when they do as expected, but when its not expected than its more notable. If TPM had made 200 Million everyone would have called it a bomb, if Titanic had made 100 Million people would have said "I told you so". I wasn't bashing you for going to see TPM 30+ times, I was saying personally I wouldn't do it, maybe you wanted to see it that many times,a nd thats your choice, I was just trying to say I can't see going to see a movie that many times. Actually where I Live(Vermont) it would have been around $275, cause of my work schedule I can't make it to many Matinee's so I'd have to stick with the night showings.

yoda900

Nov 5th, 1999, 11:12:02 AM

There is one thing I must add, the original trilogy rerelease had actually been the first time people went to the movies to watch previews, I remember everyone going to see the previews of the Special edition. Also, I think SW trilogy original is defintily a phnomena, being that 20 years after it was made,(20 year old flick) and it opened number 1 for 3 weeks in a row, not beaten until ESB came out and took the #1 spot for 2 weeks, only until it was surpassed by ROTJ at #1 the next week, no THAT is impressive. all 3 movies were in the top 10 weekend gross the same weekend as well for 2 weeks. a trilogy of 20 year old -14 year movies made over $250M. Not to mention a 20 year old movie which peopl lined around the blocks for. And all this considering that everyone has the videw and has seen it hundreds of times. Titanic was a total fluke, and its $600m was like winning the lottery given what it was. I am still shocked to my foundation it made over $200M, given the short attention spans of americans today, how could a 3hour movie make that much? Because we are also TV zombies, lazy americans who in most part are controlled by the media, who pretty much told us if you don't see titanic you will be branded a dolt for the rest of your life. Whereas TPM was the first critic proof movie essenitaly, though if they would have stayed out of it, I think it may have gone to $600M easy, because they would not have swayed the critic only people form not seeing it.

CraigFaris

Nov 5th, 1999, 01:00:24 PM

It was a stupid comparison to begin with. You can berate Titanic as much as you like, think it was only a fluke, that it was only a "chick flick", but the numbers don't lie. TPM had a great run at the boxoffice and broke many records. Your excuses of why it didn't beat Titanic only come across as sour grapes. TPM didn't make as much as Titanic simply because it didn't have as broad a market! How can you compare a Love Story to a Thriller/Adventure film? They are two completely DIFFERENT types of films. TPM's target market wasn't the same as Titanic's. Don't get me wrong, I am a huge Star Wars fan, but as I said in my posts back in early June, TPM didn't have a snowball's chance in hell of making almost 2 Billon! Yet it broke almost every other record available, as I expected it would. As for the release date, Titanic was originally scheduled to come out during the Summer of 1997, but Cameron kept pushing back the date and finially moved it to the Christmas season. Any true comparison should have both films running during the same season. If you think Titanic would have done badly during the summer, you are only kidding yourself. Titanic's primary market, young women, are also out of school during the summer and Word of mouth was what fueled Titanic. Star Wars had tons of advertising, toys, Web advertising, tee shirts, etc. to help it along, but what did Titanic have. No one rushed out to buy "action figures" of Bruce Ismay or ships that break into! The film had to earn its money totally on the history and the love story. The summer would have provided only more opportunity for the silly girls to flock to see it. Would it have done better, while up against the summer competition? Absolutely! Titanic was also a special effects film, the likes of which (in 1997) had never been seen before. Yet Titanic was released during Christmas, which has always had much lower boxoffice figures than the summer season and it was STILL able to take in 1.835 BILLON. I can only imagine how much it would have made, given a full summer's worth of screaming teen-age girls. Star Wars vs. Titanic? I think it was the studio's that WON!

jjwr

Nov 5th, 1999, 01:22:17 PM

I definetly agree with your last point, why should all of us care how much money someone else is getting from these movies :)

Kyp Durron

Nov 5th, 1999, 02:09:49 PM

Keep in mind however that word of mouth is also what fueled TPM's success. Most every critic and their mothers bashed TPM like it was the worst movie ever to come out, and yet it made $400+ million. Titanic on the other hand, as Yoda pointed out, had critics saying if you don't see it, your banned from society for life. And every pro-Titanians always seem to forget about its lack of competition. On a week-by-week basis, here is what it fought against: Mousehunt, Little Mermaid, Tomorrow Never Dies (this is the only one that made $20+ million on its release weekend), As Good As It Gets, American Werewolf In Paris, Jackie Brown, The Postman, Wag The Dog, Good Will Hunting, Firestorm, Amistad, Fallen, Hard Rain, Kundun, Phantoms, Spice World, Deep Rising, Desperate Measures, Great Expectations, Blues Brothers 2000, Replacement Killers, Zero Effect, Wedding Singer, Palmetto, Dark City, Big Lebowski, Hush, Twilight, US Marshalls, Man In The Iron Mask, Mr. Nice Guy, Primary Colors, Wild Things, Grease, Meet The Deedles, Newton Boys, Lost In Space (finally broke Titanic's #1 weekend run), Mercury Rising, City Of Angels, My Giant, Species 2, Object Of My Affect, Paulie, Big Hit. No offense to these movies, but c'mon! If TPM had this kind of competition, how much money do you think it would've made??? I don't want to repeat the kind of competition TPM had this summer, but here's a summary: 10+ movies made $100+ million, 2 made $200+ million, almost all of them made $20+ million on their first weekend. And this is EVERY weekend in TPM's run. You do the math.

Comrade Smoke

Nov 5th, 1999, 02:41:28 PM

JonathanLB, $3.000?! That's huge? About 6 times more than I. And TPM count 34? Biggest fan I've seen in a while. Still, how did you do that?:) What did you buy? Jedi Council as 1:1 statues, made from silver? I think Episode I might cost me about $500, Episode II about $2.000 and Episode III about $4.000. But Im a fan and collector also, I buy all sort of SW stuff all the time. But SW certainly comes expensive to me, but that's my choice I want to see it again and again. And decorate my room with posters, wear SW T-shirts etc... "How can you compare a Love Story to a Thriller/Adventure film? They are two completely DIFFERENT types of films" You say SW is thriller/adventure?! Well, excuse me but it just is not! It's Star Wars. Period. This is one discussion! Anyway, TPM had realistic chances in beating Titanic. If things would have developed other way. Titanic was certainly one-time-phenomena. Re-release any time near might not be so succesfull. But WE HAVE TO REMEMBER that films box-office success is largely dependent from advertisement. And believe it or not TPM was far less advertised than Titanic. This discussion could go on forever. But I think it's simple FACT that odds were strongly against TPM. And I think it's important to understand that. Yes, Titanic was more succesfull but things could be very differently. The point after all is that for me, The Phantom Menace was a movie of the decade. No matter how well would it do in box-office. I love it!

jjwr

Nov 5th, 1999, 02:58:14 PM

TPM was not released by Lucas to beat Titanic, thats obvious by the timing of its release, if he had wanted to beat Titanic he probably would have released it around the same time Titanic was. As far as Titanic's competition, thats been beat to death, everyone knows it wasn't what TPM's was, there were some $100M+ movies there, but they took a while to mak that much, whereas with TPM they were making 40-50M a weekend and it was still doing well.

Scarloc

Nov 5th, 1999, 11:26:27 PM

Hell, this has been the biggest discussion in a fair while here. :)

JonathanLB

Nov 6th, 1999, 05:56:32 AM

Let me take a deep breath so I can try to post without bashing the hell out of some posters here. I want to like you, but I must say, TPM bashers are dick heads. Total dick heads, I don't associate with the enemy side, and that is the enemy side, SW fans or not. "Most profitable? Check out my BWP comment above." You need a dictionary or you need to rewrite your post. Look it up, profit is defined as the money you make after expenses. In fact, here it is, American Heritage Dictionary: "The return received on a business undertaking after all operating expenses have been met." Once again, I am RIGHT, you are WRONG. So next time get a dictionary if you're going to argue with me, and do your homework because I'm not going to keep arguing with someone who can't hold his own in a debate. So that means you have $140 million for Blair Witch, minus the ad budget of about $30 million, and you get $110 million. For TPM you have $430, minus the $115 budget, minus the $20 million ad budget (yes I can confirm it was no more than $20 million), and you get $295 million. You tell me which one is more profittable based on the definition of profit. I'm serious, I won't sit here and debate unless you get in line and start making sense. "There is one thing I must add, the original trilogy rerelease had actually been the first time people went to the movies to watch previews, I remember everyone going to see the previews of the Special edition." That's not true. The first time that Exhibitor Relations reports that people stood in line for a movie trailer was recorded as 1989 when the first Batman movie was released. Just so you know... "If you think Titanic would have done badly during the summer, you are only kidding yourself." That's true. You are right, it would not have done "badly" whatsoever, nobody here thinks that do they? I believe it would have done *MUCH* worse, but bad? No. I think it would have still made the top 10 of all time with about $300 million at the box office. That would be awesome, but it wouldn't have made any $600 million. "Titanic was also a special effects film, the likes of which (in 1997) had never been seen before" BS!!!! Jurassic Park had far better effects than Titanic, and if you want to talk about 1997 alone, Starship Troopers was clearly the best movie of the year effects wise, and it should have won the Oscar. The CG in Titanic was downright awful, the reason it won is because it had *excellent* real visual effects such as the ship breaking in half, the stunt work, the dummies, all that. The CG was horrible, the rest was excellent. The sound, excellent, the costumes, excellent, the sets, top notch, the CG was the only thing lacking OTHER THAN the plot. "the somewhat weak storyline" What the hell are you talking about? The Phantom Menace is one of the best movies of all time, it had an excellent story line just like the other 3 SW movies. I have a serious feeling you don't know crap about TPM. You saw it about 3 times, and you are sitting here bashing it. You expect to win an argument when you probably don't even know half of what I do about the movie? Puh-lease. Go see it again and get back to me, see it again maybe 10 times and you MIGHT understand it. The story is extremely deep, and if you don't understand that it's not my problem or Lucas', he didn't make the movie for people who are unwilling to see past the special effects. And, yes, I very much stand by what I said, The Phantom Menace was the biggest movie in the history of Hollywood. Box office or no, it doesn't matter, Titanic was very large after it came out and was one of the biggest movies ever, TPM was the biggest before and still huge after with excellent success, it was the biggest movie of all time. The biggest "event" I should say. You really don't understand the box office in the slightest and it is getting frusterating arguing with you, I'm not going to go on much beyond this. Listen, a movie does not do well simply because it has a brand name attached. If TPM was a bad movie it would have done sh*tty, simple as that. What about Batman? It did awesome, then the next Batman movie did well because it was good, then Batman Forever did respectable because it was also good, Batman and Robin still had the Batman name, it still was a Batman movie, how the crap did it do so bad then? That's EASY!!!!!!!!! Because it was NOT a good movie, that's why!!! Movies with good word of mouth have excellent box office declines, and The Phantom Menace did. Let me say something that should be very simple to understand. *Movies with GOOD box office declines have GOOD word of mouth. Conversely, movies with GOOD word of mouth have GOOD box office declines. *Movies with BAD box office declines (35-50+%) have BAD word of mouth. Conversely, movies with BAD word of mouth have BAD box office declines. A movie doesn't just happen to stay in the top 20 for 22 weeks, and the top 10 for 11 weeks if it is a bad movie but it's Star Wars. You really need to do some more fact searching here, because you aren't coming up with the right answers my friend. I believe it's pretty obvious what the deal with you is, you didn't like TPM so you think clearly everyone else must not have liked it either, they must only like "the experience" that it "reminds" them of that they had with the original trilogy. Surely, you could not be in the minority, MOST people must hate TPM just like you obviously do. Well spend some time on the other forums and check out the voting threads on Jedi.net and TheForce.net, you'll notiice that over 95% of all respondants liked The Phantom Menace, AND thought it was worthy of the SW name. You'll find the same polls wherever you look, it was a well received, excellent movie. The Phantom Menace WAS the be all end all of the Star Wars movies in my opinion, and certainly in many other peoples too. Next: That list Kyp Durron gave you is a very good one, you should study it real closely if you don't understand (this isn't directed at jjwr anymore). That list was the cotton-candy schedule Titanic had. What you are telling me dude, is your ignorance of the box office and how it works, and how movies effect each other. Here's a little trivia for you, if my basketball team never has a game against a winning team, and has a really easy schedule, are they more likely to have a better record than a team that plays the Blazers a bunch of times, the Lakers, the Spurs, and all the other good teams? Just answer that question and there is your answer. Titanic had "matches" against easy "teams" (movies), and that is why it was easily able to have a better "record" than a "team" (movie) that had a very difficult schedule but still managed to come out a winner. How else do you explain it when a team like Denver makes it to the playoffs in 1997 and ends up winning the superbowl even though they were the wildcard team? Their record was not as good whatsoever. Why did they win? They were the better team, that is why they won. That is also why TPM would "win" vs. Titanic if they were both re-released on the same number of screens at the same time, or if they had been released at the same date. Also, now back to JJWR, you are telling me that if Titanic made $600 million but analysts thought it would make $700, it would not have been a phenomenon. That is a load of crap. It still would have been the FIRST movie to break $400, $500, and $600 million in a single domestic run, and no matter whether analysts expected it to make $1 or $1 billion dollars, it still would have been a phenomenon. A phenomenon isn't just determined by how big something is in comparisson to the "expectations." Here is what the Dictionary has to say "An unusual, significant, or unaccountable fact or occurance; marvel." Was The Phantom Menace "significant" and was it unusual? I think the answer to that question answers whether TPM was a Phenomenon, and I think the answer again, is yes. I can prove that TPM is unusual. Usual is defined as the normal, or the mean of something. If something is usual it occurs commonly, or habitually. Do movies that sell 90 million tickets come along every year...or every few years? The answer to that question is no, they do not. The usual movie does not break $100 million, for example, while TPM did. The usual blockbuster sells maybe 65 million tickets, or if really big 80. But the usual blockbuster does not reach 90 million tickets. That alone defines TPM as an "unusual occurence or event." It is also significant because it is the primary movie event, and even entertainment event, of the year 1999. Therefore The Phantom Menace is a phenomenon.

JonathanLB

Nov 6th, 1999, 06:12:54 AM

Isn't it fair to say that TPM is a phenomenon SOLEY based on the fact that the highest grossing 4th part to any series has never before taken in over $150 million, but TPM made almost 3 times that much? I mean, I guess you may not see that as a big deal, but I really do. What about the term "highest grossing sequel ever," does that ring a bell or does it just kind not interest you? I mean, I think personally that's pretty damn impressive, in one run no sequel, or I should say "no movie based on another movie" has sold so many tickets in a single run. I think that is a phenomenon in every sense of the word, and it ads to the overall Star Wars phenomenon.

Auriga

Nov 6th, 1999, 01:24:30 PM

Wow I can't believe I just read that whole thing! How much free time do you guys have anyway? Pretty good essay by the way. jj isn't a **** head though

JediNemesis

Nov 6th, 1999, 05:59:38 PM

TPM was a phenomenon. It made more than any other movie in history (including adjusted figures). You have to look at the 2+ billion that Pepsi paid Lucas for merchandising rights. I'd say that puts it over the top. I walked into my local KB Toy Works last Sunday and 2 endcaps, 2 bins, and one side of an isle were dedicated to Star Wars. This of course didn't include board games, video games, apparel, and a few other minor things I saw throughout the store. 6 months after the Titanic release, I didn't see little Jack and Rose action figures there. What about a $100 model of the titanic (There because of the movie, not because of the actual ship.)? Where is the "Titanic: Shadows of the Big Ship" video game. I'm still waiting to don myself in a halloween Leo costume. TPM was more successful than Titanic, the BWP, Gone with the Wind, and any other movie in existence. Nemesis, Genius@Large

JonathanLB

Nov 6th, 1999, 08:45:30 PM

Hey... I saw you at the TFN forum. Didn't I? I remember you had that really awesome post... Anyway, hello. Also, "jj isn't a **** head though" I sure hope I didn't imply that. I don't think he is at all, but I do think he is misinformed about a lot of topics, but that's ok.

zoar

Nov 6th, 1999, 11:21:31 PM

Jedi3177

Nov 7th, 1999, 03:00:31 AM

It is funny to read some of these posts. As a new poster I will just make an observation. JJWR or whatever, is a prime example of someone who believes whatever they read. Jonathan is the quintessense of someone on the right track that just seems to lack the backbone to state his full convictions. Keep it up. You'll get to the bottom of this yet.

YadsLH 2

Nov 7th, 1999, 07:53:05 PM

*Jonathan is the quintessense of someone on the right track that just seems to lack the backbone to state his full convictions.* My friend, you certainly must be new here if you believe that. Great posts, Jon, BTW! (OK, forget that, I just read your other posts, and you certainly aren't new here!)

JonathanLB

Nov 8th, 1999, 06:01:16 AM

Yads. That's your new name, huh, Yaddle is your old name, or whatever it was, Yaddle's little helper? hehe. Dude I can't keep your names straight. =) Oh well at least they have "yad" in them. Jedi3177 is obviously just Jedi3167. You realize that is what he kept telling me before is that I just do not have the guts to say that I don't believe the box office numbers are right. Truth be told, I very much believe the box office numbers are accurate, how can they not be? I do not believe everything I read my friend, but I do certainly believe that a firm that is entrusted with such important business would do a totally accurate job with their reporting. I mean, I do think it is *possible* that some tickets sold for TPM were not accounted for, and there was some fraud by theater owners, but big deal. That may have been a few million, but I'm sorry, what about all the kids who said "two for Star Wars," and then they snuck into South Park. Dude you know that happened, so it works both ways, it really does. I have to say that what I saw Jedi3167 turn into after the release of TPM was sad. He was a great fan before the release you know, not many will believe that, but he was. He really has the right qualities, and he did defend SW, he loves the movies, he is a good fan. But this conspiracy stuff goes so far beyond what is reality, and it also is rude to offend fellow fans by saying they are the ones out of line for not believing in conspiracies. I don't think I'm a bad fan or person because I don't believe in this conspiracy, I guess it is possible, but it is so extremely unlikely to me that I cannot believe it. Tell you what, if Lucas someday says that he suspects that may have happened, I may buy into it, but without that, I don't believe Lucas would let his money be stolen without knowing.

jjwr

Nov 8th, 1999, 11:42:53 AM

Well I know who this is aimed at, I won't cherry coat it. "TPM bashers are dick heads. Total dick heads, I don't associate with the enemy side, and that is the enemy side, SW fans or not." Now that was a great one Jon, ever heard that everone has a right to their own opinion? You've obviously got yours, though you seem to think its ok to force you opinion down everone elses throught, then bash the hell out of them when they disagree with you or say some little thing against TPM. Your the kind of person that Alec Guiness was talking about when he made those comments about SW Fans. "You need a dictionary or you need to rewrite your post. Look it up, profit is defined as the money you make" I never said which movie made the most money, that ones obvious. "Once again, I am RIGHT, you are WRONG" Another great one-liner. Theres no middle ground with you is there? Its your opinion is the law, and everyone elses is crap as long as they don't agree with what you say. Ok, back to the most profitable movie thing, this is what I was talking about. These figures aren't including marketing, etc, just cost of the movie to make and box office totals(US only). TPM cost 110 Million and has made roughly 425 Million, so a profit of roughly 386%(I'm no mathematician these numbers could be wrong, wait I might have spelled that wrong, I think he was right I need a dictionary). Blair Witch cost roughly 30,000 and made about 140Million(number could be wrong, just a guess, which is a profit of 4700%(again number could be wrong, all I know is its a big percentage). Ok so TPM made 386% and BWP made 4700%, which one looks more profitable from those numbers? Again its obvious TPM made more money straight out, but thats not what I was talking about. By the way, how much did Titanic make in the Box Office? By your definitions I bet it made more than TPM, course by mine it didn't, which do you prefer? "I'm serious, I won't sit here and debate unless you get in line and start making sense." Wierd comment, seeing as you don't really debate, its all one sided as far as your concerned, did you notice above how I actually agreed with something you wrote? Do you ever do that, probably not, seeing as its not something that came out of your mouth. Now if you wish you can write back and give me a definition of debate and probably prove me wrong there too, if it make syou feel better than by all means go ahead. "That's not true. The first time that Exhibitor Relations reports that people stood in line for a movie trailer was recorded as 1989 when the first Batman movie was released. Just so you know..." Anything to prove someone wrong, even when it goes against SW This was the first time it was recorded, does that mean its the first time it happened? "What the hell are you talking about?" Star Wars, what are you talking about? "The Phantom Menace is one of the best movies of all time" Hmmmm....a little biased are you? Now heres where the opinion thing comes in, you may think its one of the best movies of all time, and in your opinion it probably is. I enjoyed it, thought it was a great movie, and a good addition to the SW films, but not one of the best movies of all time(hey another opinion). "I have a serious feeling you don't know crap about TPM. You saw it about 3 times, and you are sitting here bashing it. You expect to win an argument when you probably don't even know half of what I do about the movie? Puh-lease." Oh I shouldn't even go here, who said I was bashing TPM? I've said repeated times I've thought the movie was great and enjoyed it, I loved the movie and will watch it a ton of times when it comes out on video. The only thing I've been discussing is its box office totals, numbers, etc. Ok, I did say I thought the story was a little weak, but you know what, thats my OPINION. Do you not get the concept of opinions? Do you feel its ok to bash the hell out of someone because their opinion differs from yours? Yes I saw TPM only three times, but you know what, thats cause I only needed to see it 3 times to understand it and pull it all in, is it my fault it take syou 34 viewings of a movie to get it? As for winning this argument, with you I think thats impossible, not because your that brilliant, but quite the contrary, your very small minded, you think everything Star Wars and TPM is gold, it can do no wrong, so no matter what someone says your gonna say something probably rude and derogatory back to them saying TPM rules. "Go see it again and get back to me, see it again maybe 10 times and you MIGHT understand it." Now if were in the middle of a indepth conversation about the plot, etc then that might actualy mean something, but seeing as we're talking mostly about profits, money, etc, then me seeing it a few times won't accomplish much. "The story is extremely deep, and if you don't understand that it's not my problem or Lucas', he didn't make the movie for people who are unwilling to see past the special effects." The story was about as deep as a my belly button(take my word for it, not very deep). Yes it was a fun movie, but the story wasn't that deep, it had a lot of eye candy, some cool fight sequences, a ok story. But you know what? I enjoyed the movie, I thought it was great, but because I've said one bad thing about TPM you seem to think I hate it and didn't enjoy it or get it at all. I understood the movie, I knew what was going on. "The biggest "event" I should say. " This I agree with you on, the biggest event, yes, the biggest movie, no. "You really don't understand the box office in the slightest and it is getting frusterating arguing with you, I'm not going to go on much beyond this. " Ok so what didn't I understand? Outside of your definition above what else don't I understand? So far what we've both said is opinions, and we both have our own, theres not really anything to understand here. "Listen, a movie does not do well simply because it has a brand name attached." When the Brand name is SW, yes it does. Before it came out it got horrible reviews, yet people still went to see it. Why? Because it was a SW movie, I didn't care about the reviews, I was there the second day, I wanted to see the next Star Wars movie. Now where did I say it was a bad movie? I never said that, TPM was a good movie, on its own I think it would have done well, maybe 200 Million, but it also made a lot more money cause it was a SW movie. Heck it made something like 150 Million its first 5 days, do you think it would have made that much if it wasn't a SW movie? Honestly? I'll agree on the Batman ones, the last one royally sucked, I never even went to see it, the sad thing was it made 100 Million still. "I believe it's pretty obvious what the deal with you is, you didn't like TPM so you think clearly everyone else must not have liked it either, they must only like "the experience" that it "reminds" them of that they had" Maybe this one isn't aimed at me, but in case it is(apologies if this isn't aimed at me). At which point did I say I didn't like TPM? Was it the multiple times I've said its a great movie(both in this post and others?). Now on the flip side, you obviously thought TPM was the greatest movie ever, so clearly everone else must think the same way? And anyone who doesn't deservers to flamed and is a dick head? Did I get that one right? "MOST people must hate TPM just like you obviously do" Would you mind doing some fact searching of your own? How about going through this thread and checking out my posts and reading where I've said I liked this movie? Do you think I got 2500 posts on this board because I hate the movie. I'm not even gonna go into the phenom issue, that ones been beat to death, both of us have our own opinions and debating that one more isn't gonna do any good. Now for my closing, I never liked you much when I saw your posts before the split, you were rude and belittled people for their opinions, and thats the same as you do now. Maybe you revolve your life around TPM and go to sleep in your TPM sheets and jammies, but not everone does. Just because I haven't seen the movie 34 times or dropped 3000 in SW merchandise does that mean I'm not a Star Wars fan? Does that give you the right to label me and everyone else a @#%$ cause we might voice some little displeasure with TPM? You know, grow up. I don't know how old you are, or what you do in life, but I can't imagine you'd get very far with your attitude, especially if it spreads to everything you do/like. I'll state this again, everone has a right to their own opinion. I respect yours, though I disagree with them(the point of this debate) and your disagree mine, but instead of labeling me as a dick head, and a TPM basher and saying I obviously hate TPM or I don't know how deep the movie is, how about proving me wrong in a intelligent discussion? The added defitions were nice, it made it look like you know what your talking about, but instead of just tossing things in how about discussing things rationally? How about trying to see things from both sides of the fence?

CraigFaris

Nov 8th, 1999, 12:52:58 PM

Since this is the Star Wars vs. Titanic thread, and everyone is so proud of how many times they visited the latest installment of Star Wars, how about coming clean and telling us how many times you saw Titanic? Come on, be honest even if it was only because your girlfriend or wife put a gun to your head. You see, I think Star Wars was the greatest Sci-Fi series in history, however I have also studied the sinking of the Titanic for over three decades. (can these two ideals coexist?) I have also been to the site where she sank and met two of the remaining five suvivors, so obviously, I saw Titanic more than once.

jjwr

Nov 8th, 1999, 01:46:19 PM

I didn't see it until it came onto HBO, I probably wouldn't have watched it then if it hadn't been for my gf's 7yr old daughter who loves the movie. The reason I avoided it was because I didn't care much for DiCaprio, and when a movie makes that much of a splash I tend to avoid them for a while afterwards(well if its somthing I hadn't planned on seeing). I'd say now I've probably seen it twice, though only once from beginning to end, the rest were just pieces put together from various partial viewings. I didn't think it was that bad, a little long, but not a bad movie.

Kyp Durron

Nov 8th, 1999, 02:50:35 PM

Saw it twice with a girlfriend who really, really loved it. I thought it was a good movie, but not for it's historical value. If I was oblivious to the history of Titanic, this movie wouldn't have helped me one bit. It was a good love story though...but, it's been done before. I think what made it nice for me was the fact that I had such a low expectation for it and I came out liking it. But what's extraordinarily kool for me is that I had big expectations for TPM, and it still exceeded them. TPM is the perfect apetizer for the perfect meal (EP2) and perfect desert (EP3) Hmm, now I'm hungry =)

JonathanLB

Nov 9th, 1999, 03:24:52 AM

"Its your opinion is the law, and everyone elses is crap as long as they don't agree with what you say." No. That is not true, you have the right to your opinions, but if you read my post again (and please do just read that one part), I was saying that I was right, and you were wrong on that point. It was not my *opinion* it was a *fact*. I clearly pointed you to the definition of the word you were using. Now I understand what you are saying by your last post, you need to be more clear though because it does get confusing. You are talking about profit margins, which relates the ratio of how much you spent to how much you earned. That makes sense, and yes from that perspective there is no doubt BWP was the biggest movie ever, there is just no doubt. But we were talking about Profit, that is I believe what you said before, profit. I said a fact, The Phantom Menace was more profittable than BWP. That isn't up for debate, it is a fact. Do you see what I'm saying? I'm not pushing my opinion on you and saying it is right, I am telling you a fact, if you won't understand that fact, then you must be one of those people that says "don't confuse me with the facts, my minds made up!" JJWR, TPM did not have a weak plot, you saw it 3 times, clearly you did not understand it. Do you see why I saw it 34 times? You don't, do you. You would if you had seen it about 10 times, then I believe you would have a great understanding of the plot, which was, FYI, deeper than any of the SW movies yet. The reason is because it is far more subtle. While ROTJ is complex, and ESB tangled, ANH fairly straight forward, TPM is in fact very subtle and can seem deceptively simple. That is the trap I believe you fell into, you are not seeing past the special effects, you are still stuck on them. It's ok, I was there too man. When I saw it for the first time, I couldn't care less about the plot, the effects were just friggin' unreal, I had already read much of the book so I felt I had the plot semi-understood. Then when I saw those visuals I was just knocked off my feet. So then I saw it again, I was too tired, it was the 19th still, my 2nd viewing that day. I only got the visuals out of it. Friday, saw it again, too tired, only concentrated on great effects. Finally on Saturday after a good rest I saw it 2 times that day, and I felt I started to understand it better, but I made constant progress throughout the summer. It really is that deep of a movie, and I think you've not given it a fair chance. But, once again that is just my opinion. JJWR, I don't like TPM bashers, that comment was not directed at you, you're not like a "basher" as such, you just aren't a happy camper clearly. If you think the SW movies are about great visual effects, you dont know why you're a SW fan. The SW movies are much more than effects vehicles, it would be sad if that's all you enjoy TPM for. That is why I don't believe you when you say you enjoyed it, I don't think you're being upfront with me. You know you expected far more, you think the movie was mediocre. I can read that into your posts, it isn't hard. JJWR, we will agree with each other on many things in the future, and I think we should leave any bitterness towards each other in this thread, and in this thread alone. That is something you must learn about me, I never take my arguments beyond the thread, so while I can be against you here, and I may even seem rude sometimes, to you, but I really won't take them beyond this thread alone. We can be friends still, but only if you reckognize we are just debating these issues. JJWR, let me help you understand what I am telling you. I really don't LIKE correcting people, it puts me in the position of the "know-it-all" kind of thing, and I don't appreciate being there. However I do like helping other fans get their facts straight if they want, and I know more about TPM than many other people, for certain reasons, of which will become clear if you know me better. For one, my archives contain the largest database of information concerning The Phantom Menace around, I have no doubt of that... When I was talking about the box office, let me make clear what I am saying. You are ABSOLUTELY correct when you say that the opening weekend was OBVIOUSLY HUGELY influenced by the mere fact that this movie said "Star Wars." That is not the point I am trying to fight you on, no way, you are totally correct! But what I am telling you, and you must believe me on this, is that a bad movie would not have kept going. That is all I am trying to say. Remember The Lost World? Jurassic Park was a big deal, people lined up for LW because it was JP2, you know, and it had a built in audience. JP was the biggest worldwide movie in history until Titanic! But what happened to LW 2nd weekend? It dropped over 50% I believe, and it fell from $72 million to just over $30 million. With The Phantom Menace, however, it debuted at $64.7 million, to fall only a slim 21% second weekend. There is a reason for that, and it is because TPM did phenomenal at the box office and with word of mouth travelling that it was a really good movie! But it didn't just end there, it continued onto Week 3, 4, 5, etc. Weekend 3 would be a bad example, TPM fell 36% to $33 million, that is traditional because Memorial Day weekend is so big. But what was very impressive was the $25 million it pulled in against Austin Powers 2, a less than 25% decline once again! You must understand, it wasn't doing this good of business for 8, 10, 12, 14 weeks straight just because the name says "Star Wars," that only propells you past the first week, if you're lucky, 2 weeks. The reason it kept on goign was because it was well received by the audiences. That is all I am trying to tell you JJWR, like Morpheus said to Neo, I can show you the door, but you have to step through it. I can tell you the facts, but if you are unwilling to believe them, there is nothing further I can do.. I hope some of this post makes sense or clears something up at least, I don't want you to think I'm a total A-hole, whoops too late. =) You are no less of a fan because you have seen TPM less times, or spent less money. NONE of those things matter in my view of fandom. Understanding of the movies and knowledge of the phenomenon (Star Wars in general) is integral to my defintion of the best fans, but that's just me. I love finding fans who know a lot, and I can really learn from them. I have only met a few that really were smart enough they could teach me things even I had not thought of, Dedalus on TFN was one of those. In fact, HyperEopie on my forum is a brilliant SW fan, IMO, and I've learned a lot from him just seeing TPM 2 times in theaters with him. he lives in my area...

Darth23

Nov 9th, 1999, 04:03:49 AM

Acctually they spent about a million bucks on marketing and distribution for BWP, which brings the percentage down. Sounds like 2 different things are being tallked about. TPM made more money (gross - expenses) BWP had a higher return, percentage wise. Of course most studios would rather have 300 million dollars than 139 million dollars... Plus, BWP was a total fluke. I'm speaking about the phenomenon and how well it worked to get people to the theaters. It didn't really have legs though. there was a lot of buzz when it was only playing tin a few theaters. It hit a thousand and made a surprising amount of money. The next week it doubled its screen count and made almost the exact same amount of money. In other words it's per screen average dropped by about half after a lot of people finally saw the thing. I'm sure there will be a lot of BWP clones coming out now. hopefully there may be some really good low budget movies that a lot of people get to see.

Dutchy

Nov 9th, 1999, 07:29:50 AM

and here are some comments: Jonathan, <blockquote>quote:<hr>"And, yes, I very much stand by what I said, The Phantom Menace was the biggest movie in the history of Hollywood. Box office or no, it doesn't matter, Titanic was very large after it came out and was one of the biggest movies ever, TPM was the biggest before and still huge after with excellent success, it was the biggest movie of all time. The biggest "event" I should say."[/quote] C'mon Jonathan. In YOUR opinion TPM is the biggest, greatest and best movie in history. You're exaggerating if you say it IS the biggest, greatest and best movie in history. I'm glad you liked it so much, but don't state your own opinion as if it's the general one. <blockquote>quote:<hr>"Did you know that in a poll conducted on Yahoo.com, and yes I have a press release on this, over 50% of their users believed that TPM could make $1 billion at the US box office alone?"[/quote] I didn't know that and I doubt if it's representative at all. Not even that many die hard Star Wars thought TPM could do 1M, let alone a representative part of the (Internet) population. <blockquote>quote:<hr>"The declines of TPM at the box office were very good, and not matched by many other blockbusters. Only Jurassic Park had that good of staying power, and it was no better, just equal. But TPM sold more tickets."[/quote] You're definitely forgetting Titanic here, which had better staying power than any movie (including TPM) in movie history. <blockquote>quote:<hr>"Nor am I now, I still want to see it more, and that's after 34 times."[/quote] Just 34? Jonathan! I was SURE you'd be way beyond your 50 goal by now. :) <blockquote>quote:<hr>"Let me take a deep breath so I can try to post without bashing the hell out of some posters here."[/quote] LOL! There's our Jonathan. :) <blockquote>quote:<hr>"So that means you have $140 million for Blair Witch, minus the ad budget of about $30 million, and you get $110 million. For TPM you have $430, minus the $115 budget, minus the $20 million ad budget (yes I can confirm it was no more than $20 million), and you get $295 million."[/quote] I'm not totally sure where Titanic stands at this, but if it didn't spend more than $100M on ad then it was more profitable than both BWP and TPM. Looking at sheer boxoffice gross that is. <blockquote>quote:<hr>"The CG was horrible, the rest was excellent. The sound, excellent, the costumes, excellent, the sets, top notch, the CG was the only thing lacking OTHER THAN the plot."[/quote] Can you give an example on where CG was used? I'm not even sure if I know... the breathing in the water was one I think. <blockquote>quote:<hr>"What the hell are you talking about? The Phantom Menace is one of the best movies of all time, it had an excellent story line just like the other 3 SW movies. I have a serious feeling you don't know crap about TPM. You saw it about 3 times, and you are sitting here bashing it. You expect to win an argument when you probably don't even know half of what I do about the movie? Puh-lease."[/quote] Couldn't disagree with you more. In my opinion TPM's plot was its worst feature. The narrative structure was plain horrible. Sure, it had a good story, but the way it was brought to us sucked. The scenes seemed to have been put in in random order and there was no leading thread running through TPM. <blockquote>quote:<hr>"I saw it 34 times? You don't, do you. You would if you had seen it about 10 times."[/quote] OK, I can imagine, but if TPM really requires 10 times of viewing to understand the plot then that's just insane. A good plot only needs one viewing and a second sometimes to appreciate it even more. If it really takes 10 times then I couldn't care less about it. By the way, I saw it 3 times and I think I get the plot. It didn't appeal to me, but that's OK, just a matter of taste. <blockquote>quote:<hr>"It really is that deep of a movie, and I think you've not given it a fair chance."[/quote] If I have to see a movie 10 times then that's not fair of the director. Not the other way round. <blockquote>quote:<hr>"With The Phantom Menace, however, it debuted at $64.7 million, to fall only a slim 21% second weekend. There is a reason for that, and it is because TPM did phenomenal at the box office and with word of mouth travelling that it was a really good movie! But it didn't just end there, it continued onto Week 3, 4, 5, etc."[/quote] Wholeheartedly agreed. TPM's drop offs thoughout its run were very impressive. It didn't look like it would do so good after its third week, but it did and it deservers credit for it. All in all it ended right where I thought it would, but I was still impressed by its staying power throughout the summer. <blockquote>quote:<hr>"Isn't it fair to say that TPM is a phenomenon SOLEY based on the fact that the highest grossing 4th part to any series has never before taken in over $150 million, but TPM made almost 3 times that much?"[/quote] No, it isn't. If TPM were released only few years after ROTJ then it would, but after 16 years of waiting the boxoffice run it had was to be expected. <blockquote>quote:<hr>"What about the term "highest grossing sequel ever," does that ring a bell or does it just kind not interest you?"[/quote] TPM isn't just another sequel. First of all it's Star Wars and most of all there are, like I said, 16 years between the prior and next installment. Therefore it isn't much of a sequel as in a successful movie gets a successor a few years later, but it's more a whole new movie of the most popular series. So Jonathan... now that TPM has left the theaters (I think) are ya going to (if you haven't already that is) finally see The Sixth Sense? : ) jjwr, <blockquote>quote:<hr>"Cost $40,000 to make, was very amateurish, yet made $100+Million, I'd call that a phenom, It would probably be safe to say that BWP was the most profitable movie in history."[/quote] I agree. BWP's gross was more impressive than TPM's relatively spoken. TPM was very impressive, but it wasn't much more (if at all) than we all expected. CraigFaris, Your post made a lot of sense except for one thing. You said: <blockquote>quote:<hr>"TPM didn't make as much as Titanic simply because it didn't have as broad a market!"[/quote] That's very true, but then you also say: <blockquote>quote:<hr>"You can berate Titanic as much as you like, think it was only a fluke, that it was only a "chick flick", but the numbers don't lie."[/quote] and <blockquote>quote:<hr>"The summer would have provided only more opportunity for the silly girls to flock to see it."[/quote] You're contradicting yourself there. If Titanic was only a "chick-flick" and only "silly girls" went to see it then that doesn't leave much of an audience for TPM, since, as you said, it has less broad a market. So to be short: Titanic was so not a chick-flick. It had an extremely wide demographic and attracted people who hadn't been to theaters for a decade or two or more.

jjwr

Nov 9th, 1999, 10:39:29 AM

Cause its gotten blown a bit out of proportion, but that tends to happen. The part about the opinions that was my observation of some of your posts, both now and in the past when you were a more regular poster here, thats how it seemed to me. I see what your saying about the profits(etc), maybe I should have used a different term, but in my opinion thats how I felt it should have been used. Maybe if you had asked politely what I meant instead of shoving a definition down my throat and the I"M RIGHT YOUR WRONG thing, then it would have gone over better, courtesy is a good thing, it can do great things for you. The fact that TPM made more money than BWP was never in question, I know its a Fact that it made more, but funny thing is its also a fact that BWP made more money than TPM and Titanic combined :) Ok back to the weak plot, I'm going to say for the last time I LOVE THESE MOVIES!!! I don't enjoy them just for the eye candy, or the special effects, as far as these movies go I'm just as much of a fan as you are, I'm just not as fanatical. I truly do not mean this as a insult, but I feel I have a very good understanding of hte plot, the side twists, the hidden agenda's etc, and it only took me 3 times to get it, maybe it took you 10, 15, whatever, but I understood the plot, I got the whole thing. I still don't think it was that deep, there were some hidden and obscured things, but that doesn't make it deep. As was said in a thread above, you shouldn't have to see a movie a ton of times to get the plot, and I think this is the same way. If anything its the Special effects and hidden stuff that you'd have to go back for. Please don't talk down to me like I'm a child, I understood the movie, and it only took 3 times, again it was a great movie, and yes I did see past the special effects(on the 2nd time) and by the third I think I've got a pretty good understanding of what went on. I'm a very happy camper, I never said the SW movies were about special effects, I've watched them all lots of times. Actually you really can't watch the old ones for the special effects anymore cause their so outdated, the new one had cutting edge special effects and they were very good. Mediocre, yes. Is that wrong? I didn't think it was the second coming, I enjoyed it very much, but with so much buildup and the chance to relive childhood memories did everyone really expect this movie to please completely? I was hoping for the same feeling I got from the original movies, and that obviously won't happen cause I"m not a kid anymore, but I still enjoyed it a lot, and I'm sure I'll enjoy it for many years to come, you can put words into my mouth and say I don't get it, or I'm not being truthfull with you, but I have. Why would I not be? I enjoyed the movie, but personally I don't think its as big as your making it out to be. And thats my opinion,I have a right to it, and because its my opinion doesn't mean I do'nt like the SW movies, or I'm hiding something, etc, I just didn't think it was the greatest SW movie. As far as the box office, thats all I meant, being a SW movie affected the gross of this movie, I never said it was a bad movie, and it kept going because people liked it, and wanted to see it again and again. But flat out it wouldn't have gotten anywhere near as much if it hadn't been a SW movie. I do'nt think TPM did well because of word of mouth, everyone already knew about it, and if anything the word of mouth was bad, a lot of critics and what not thought it was dissapointing. But thats why they called this the first critics proof movie, no one cared, everyone wanted to go see the new SW movie, thats why it made so much the following weekends. "I can tell you the facts, but if you are unwilling to believe them, there is nothing further I can do.." Please stop acting so @#%$ again your making it sound like everything you say is right. A lot of that was your opinion, the only things that were fact were the box office numbers. Maybe it being a SW movie made it get most of its money, maybe it didn't, theres no way to tell, lets leave that at that. I enjoy the Star Wars movies, maybe I don't know every little detail of them, but who cares, all I wanna know about Star Wars is what I see in the movies.

Phantom of the Opera

Nov 9th, 1999, 11:29:16 AM

I just waded through this entire thread and thought I'd offer my opinions, which I should point out are mine alone and not intended to be the final word. First, I am one of those who grew up with Star Wars and, yes, I waited 20 years for TPM to come out. I would have gone to see it if the main character was Barney, simply because it was Star Wars. However, I would not have gone more than once which I did do. In point of fact, I love almost all Sci-Fi films and while I do go to see other types of movies, I label myself as primarily a Sci-Fi fan. I went into Star Wars with mixed expectations. On the one hand, I was hoping for a "Star Wars" movie which is to say something approaching a religious experience. On the other hand, I had been led to believe that this episode was more "kid'ish" and a bit weak in plot. When I went, I found the Star Wars magic to be there and, while I agree that the plot was a bit thinner than some of the original SW films, it was still better than I had anticipated from the somewhat negative comments I had heard. As for Titanic, at first I refused to go see it at all. The hype turned me off and I did think it was a movie for the Leo-loving teeny-bopper set, my own daughter included here. It also was not what I'd generally describe as "my type of movie". Eventually, however, I did go to see it and I was moved beyond all expectations. Everyone is different and while I was deeply affected by it others were not. Just for the record, I saw TPM 3 times in the theatre and Titanic either 2 or 3 there, so I may not be regarded as worthy of even having an opinion with so few viewings. For me, however, I rarely see a film more than once in the theatre. Bottom line, I found both movies to be excellent. While I live in a Sci-Fi/Star Wars world in my entertainment tastes generally, I thoroughly enjoyed Titanic. Forced to choose which movie I would call the best, I would pick Titanic (which will not make me too popular here). Titanic was a true phenomenon by itself. TPM is a part of the larger Star Wars phenomenon and does not stand alone to the same degree as Titanic. Just a bit of a personal aside. Not that you're necessarily interested and it will probably get me some extra bashing, but having read through the thread, I find JonathanLB to be a complete self-absorbed "di**-head" (to use his own term) who completely pisses me off and view JJWR, his nemisis and also the moderator, as a more reasonable, open-minded and articulate individual.

jjwr

Nov 9th, 1999, 12:15:41 PM

Good post, I definetly agree with your point about Titanic being the phenomonon while TPM being more a part of the SW phenomonon. Thats the point I was trying to make, but it got lost in the shuffle and I gave that one up. I'm glad someone actually understands what I'm trying to say through all my rantings and wanderings, thanks Phantom!

CraigFaris

Nov 9th, 1999, 12:51:56 PM

Dutchy, I pretty much agree with every reply you have given, but would like to clearify a couple of points. >>quote by Jonathan: "The CG was horrible, the rest was excellent. The sound, excellent, the costumes, excellent, the sets, top notch, the CG was the only thing lacking OTHER THAN the plot." --- and Dutchy's response: Can you give an example on where CG was used? I'm not even sure if I know... the breathing in the water was one I think.<< Titanic had over 600 special effects shots, more than any other movie prior to it's making (Even more than both JP films), but they were so effective that many of them went totally unoticed. (the point of special effects in the first place) Lets take a look at the leaving the dock scene with everyone onboard and on the docks waving -- Not real, a CG. The water around the ship --again not real, a CG. In order to make the water look real, a special logarithm code (developed by the US Navy to study submarine wakes) was used and almost all of the water seen with the ship was a computer graphic. The helicopter fly over with everyone on board, smoke coming from the stacks, flag waving, sea gulls, ocean foam and waves -- totally CG. A forty foot model shot from upside down was the only real thing in the entire sequence. As a matter of fact the people at Industrial Light and Magic said the CG in Titanic were the best they had ever seen. This is not to say that Star Wars' CG was not impressive as well. There were over 1200 special effects shots in it, but this is 1999 not 1997 and computers have come a long way in two years. >>>> quote by J: "What the hell are you talking about? The Phantom Menace is one of the best movies of all time, it had an excellent story line just like the other 3 SW movies. I have a serious feeling you don't know crap about TPM. You saw it about 3 times, and you are sitting here bashing it. You expect to win an argument when you probably don't even know half of what I do about the movie? Puh-lease." and "I saw it 34 times? You would if you had seen it about 10 times."<<<< Thirty four times! Well, I would say that Jonathan is a true fan of this film and if he wants to "invest" around $240 on a subject that he really, really, must love, then more power to him. But don't watch Titanic once and presume to be an expert on how terrible the special effects were. If I had seen Titanic 34 times I would be pretty sick of it too! >>>> And you quoted me: "TPM didn't make as much as Titanic simply because it didn't have as broad a market!" "You can berate Titanic as much as you like, think it was only a fluke, that it was only a "chick flick", but the numbers don't lie." "The summer would have provided only more opportunity for the silly girls to flock to see it." <<<< Yes I did contradict myself, because even though Titanic had an extremely wide demographic and attracted people who hadn't been to theaters for decades it's "Primary" market was still Women. My point should have been clearer, that I felt that these Young women (excuse the term "Chicks") would have taken even more advantage of their summer vacations to drag the male readers of this thread to see a film that didn't have a single space ship in it! But overall, I want to say that I appreciate the fact that my comments, in obvious defense of Titanic, have not enraged the readers of this thread to verbally "Tar and Feather" me. I have been quite surprised at how many readers have actually agreed with those posts. It has made for an interesting discussion. On a personal note, I am a graphic designer by trade, but reciently finished my first novel entitled, The Speed of Light. This inspired me to write two short stories, which to my astonishment, both won literary awards from the South Carolina Writers Workshop. My second novel, Spectrum, is in progress.

Comrade Smoke

Nov 9th, 1999, 03:48:47 PM

Conflicts in SW forums... But don't end up sending nukes to each others... And be sure not to post all night... Take your vitamins... TPM is movie of the decade... bye...

Kyp Durron

Nov 9th, 1999, 06:51:15 PM

Star Wars is a great story about a girl and a boy, a father and his son, teacher and apprentice, a boy and his mother, the journey of two droids, the journey from boyhood to adulthood, good vs evil, sister and brother, primitives vs technology, love vs hate. Titanic is a story about a girl and a boy...and a boat. Maybe we shouldn't compare the two???

Scarloc

Nov 9th, 1999, 09:19:49 PM

Perhaps someone should have said that 6 months ago? :)

JonathanLB

Nov 10th, 1999, 01:19:52 AM

I lose, I don't want to debate any more about this. I'll give a few final thoughts, but that is it. BWP did NOT make more money than both Titanic and TPM. Titanic made $350 million profit, TPM about $300, BWP $110. That isn't even close. BWP x 6 made more money than both combined, I believe, but not alone! If you mean the profit ratio, yes, that is way bigger than any movie ever made, lol. Dutchy, you are a TPM detractor, I can tell that, but you can't deny what a big movie TPM was, if you saw half of the press articles I have collected you would change your mind. You just don't get it, you don't live in the States, maybe that's why. This movie was by far the biggest event of the decade at the movies. Titanic was the most successful movie at the box office by far of the decade, but that doesn't make every other movie a lesser movie. In fact I'd argue that Jurassic Park, with it's relatively puny $350 million or whatever, is almost as big as Titanic, in terms of a movie, and it is bigger in cultural impact by far. Not to mention the book sold 10,000,000 copies which also goes a long way to proving that, imo, it has had a more profound influence than Titanic. I can also prove that in terms of what the movie did for the business, of course JP's effects were far more revolutionary than almost any movie before it. Probably even more so than any movie but TPM, because there certainly were more advancements in TPM than any other movie in history, but JP would have to be right there, in terms of the newage movies. I guess one would have to believe that ANH did more for the effects business than any movie ever, but I think in terms of CG it would be TPM, then JP... Dutchy, for the record what I said about people predicting TPM making over $1 billion in the states was right from Variety, May 19 I believe. Those people, obviously, didn't know much about the box office, I am just merely saying that some people got their expectations a BIT high. I can see there are a massive number of TPM bashers on this forum, or from what I have seen, and that is very disturbing. CC.net may be a corrupt place at times, but at least they're true SW fans, basically every one of them. In fact, yes, every one of them. Go back to your TPM bashing, losers. Titanic sucks too, it isn't even close to as good as any other blockbuster, CERTAINLY not even close to as good as the 4 SW movies, the best 4 movies ever made. I'm going to go watch some Jackie Chan movies, I love Jackie Chan, he sure beats the pants off that sissy Leo. But I guess it depends on your "orientation" if you know what I'm saying, if you're straight as an arrow or crooked as a boomerang.

jjwr

Nov 10th, 1999, 03:11:12 PM

OK Jon, you were doing good, until this thread. You were making some rational arguments, making some sense, then you decide to go out and label seemingly everyone here a TPM basher and a homosexual? Or did I read that wrong? "I lose, I don't want to debate any more about this. " I'll take that as a concession. To the BWP comment about making more than Titanic and TPM, I was trying to make a point which seemed to have missed. You seemed to like using the term fact, and saying that certain things were a FACT and that they're no longer in dispute. But you obviously haven't pulled out the dictionary on this one, a FACT is something that can be proven, right or wrong. It can be proven that BWP made more money than TPM and Titanic. Admittedly proven wrong, but that doesn't change that its a fact. Saying something is a fact doesn't automatically make it the truth. Its a fact that I play in the NBA to. Back to opinions, why do you love to bash people because they share a different opinion than you? Is it so hard to believe that not everyone likes TPM or thinks its the greatest movie in the world? Just because someone shares a different opinion than you, and may disagree with something about TPM or say Titanic did something better than TPM does not make tham a TPM basher. You have such a narrow view of things its pathetic. After your post yesterday I thought of you as a more rational person, even thought better of you, then I got reminded by this post how much of a **** head you are. If anything your not the true SW Fan, in the world of diversity that is SW I would hope that a supposedly true fan of it would have a diverse mind, but I guess I'm wrong. If your what a true SW Fan is supposed to be, than I'm glad I'm not. I'd rather stay here with all the other TPM Bashers who can see both sides of the fence and know what a opinion means. "I'm going to go watch some Jackie Chan movies, I love Jackie Chan, he sure beats the pants off that sissy Leo. But I guess it depends on your "orientation" if you know what I'm saying, if you're straight as an arrow or crooked as a boomerang." Now this comment I still can't believe you said. Are you that narrow minded that your going to call all the guys who liked Titanic homosexual? All the guys who disagree with your views on TPM homosexual? Do you realize that being homosexual has absolutely nothing to do with any of this? Why don't you grow up, and maybe learn what diversity and open minded mean.

CMJ

Nov 10th, 1999, 05:43:33 PM

I waded through this entire thread for the first time in about a week. Some interesting stuff is here. First off, let me say that I do believe that TPM was just a blockbuster. A HUGE one....but not a phenomenon. TITANIC was a phenomenon, BWP was a phenomenon, hell FORESST GUMP was a phenomenon(no one expected ANYTHING from that film). TPM was a very special blockbuster with it's unusally small drop-offs and such. Let me also go on record as saying that I found TPM's plot very deep(the second deepest of all the plots) so I disagree with JJ on that one, though I agree with him on most fronts(the boxoffice ones anyways....TPM is one of my favorite 50 or so films of all time). I also think you can't discount TITANIC's Boxoffice by saying it was the teen girls. I'm SOOOO sick and tired of that excuse. The reason it did so well is that people who NEVER see films in the theatre went and saw it. My grandparents who hadn't seen a flick since ET in the theatres saw it. THAT'S why it did so well. Whe you reach the demographic of people who don't see movies....THATS when something special is born. I'm still trying to understand why Jon called TITANIC lovers homosexuals....:) It's actually quite amusing to me. Jonathan...I saw TPM 6 times...thats nothing to you I know, but it's only the second movie I've ever seen that many times in the theatre. I saw TITANIC 8 times! Does that make me gay? My profound love for the opposite sex tells me not...but maybe you know better...LOL! Oh Jon, you were finally starting to tone down your rhetoric...what happened? Anyways...not that anyone is gonna read this whole thread...AGAIN....just to see what I said...but I just wanted to put in my 2 cents...:)

Dutchy

Nov 10th, 1999, 06:12:28 PM

I'm not a TPM detractor, I was just stating my honest opinion. That's a difference, you know? Not even important. Yup, I agree TPM was a big movie and I never denied it. <blockquote><hr>"This movie was by far the biggest event of the decade at the movies."</blockquote> The decade? C'mon Jonathan, what happened to "all time"? :) <blockquote><hr>"Titanic was the most successful movie at the box office by far of the decade, but that doesn't make every other movie a lesser movie. In fact I'd argue that Jurassic Park, with it's relatively puny $350 million or whatever, is almost as big as Titanic, in terms of a movie, and it is bigger in cultural impact by far. Not to mention the book sold 10,000,000 copies which also goes a long way to proving that, imo, it has had a more profound influence than Titanic."</blockquote> All true, but we're talking sheer boxoffice here and looking at that Titanic is still the king. And even boxoffice-wise TPM was HUGE, but just not as huge as Titanic.

Dutchy

Nov 10th, 1999, 06:15:48 PM

I guess you don't know me, so I'll introduce myself a lil. I've been around on SW vs. Titanic boards ever since February and I've been discussing my ass off ever since (me and Jonathan come a long way for instance). I was bashed at first, because I had the nerve to predict that TPM would NOT beat Titanic. They couldn't believe I was so "negative". As time moved on I became more and more accepted and people released I was not negative, but realistic (I basically used math and common sense to predict TPM's final gross). So, anyway... I'm a Titanic fan (it's one of my Top 10 movies of all time anyway) that loves boxoffice figures and hence I ended up in this discussion. I liked TPM too, but only for entertainment reasons. So, with my "Can you give an example on where CG was used? I'm not even sure if I know..." remark I was totally being sarcastic. Sorry, you couldn't have known. I wholeheartedly agree with your reply to my post. Couldn't have said it any better, coz it's EXACTLY what I was about to say. Yes, Titanic's CG was so impressive, coz people didn't even realize it was CG! They did an amazing job. So, I thought I'd clear that up. :)

jjwr

Nov 10th, 1999, 06:47:30 PM

I deleted that one for you dutchy. I'll say again, I loved the movie, just didn't think it was that deep :)

Dutchy

Nov 10th, 1999, 06:54:01 PM

<blockquote>"I also think you can't discount TITANIC's Boxoffice by saying it was the teen girls. I'm SOOOO sick and tired of that excuse. The reason it did so well is that people who NEVER see films in the theatre went and saw it. My grandparents who hadn't seen a flick since ET in the theatres saw it. THAT'S why it did so well. When you reach the demographic of people who don't see movies....THATS when something special is born".</blockquote> EXACTLY!!!!!!!!!! By the way, thanks, jjwr. :)

CraigFaris

Nov 10th, 1999, 07:27:06 PM

Thanks Dutchy, I guess I was "out of the loop" on that one. I too predicted that TPM would not overtake Titanic, but none the less hoped it would. I've enjoyed these discussions but can't get into them much as I need to devote most of my time to finishing my next novel. I also found Jonathan's comments interesting and colorful. He is devote to say the least, but his profit figures on Titanic are in error. Titanic costs just under $200 million and had an ad budget of $80 million. That leaves a profit of 1555.4 BILLON. Those foreign sales are REAL money and cannot just be ignored. I beleve that is quite an achievment for any film regardless of the excuses. Thanks for your note on the other chat thread.

Kyp Durron

Nov 10th, 1999, 08:19:36 PM

Hmm, this thread has been taken over by Titanians :) Yes, it's true that Titanic had an awesome run @ the box office, domestically and internationally. But you've gotta give TPM it's props for being such a Force in this year's BO numbers considering its competition. Although it's not as 'deep' as you may think it is, no one in the world thought of ANH as being a 'deep' movie either...the sequels took care of that. Patience is what we must have in this situation. In time, we will see how 'deep' SW could be once more.

CraigFaris

Nov 11th, 1999, 11:59:34 AM

Titanians? Hmm,Titanians!" I kind like the sound of that. Perhaps I should change my userName to "Titanian Master"

CMJ

Nov 11th, 1999, 03:27:20 PM

It's nice to see you too...:) I haven't seen you much since Jedi3167 went away. Hell, I almost miss that guy sometimes, the discussions were ALWAYS fun...:) Even if he was a total paranoid individual....:)

JonathanLB

Nov 12th, 1999, 05:18:29 AM

Listen, I do try to tone down my posts for the most part, but I also do not hold back my feelings. I feel that this entire forum has been taken over by a bunch of Titanic loving brats. You have no appreciation for Star Wars, you don't appreciate what the movies represent, you're too shallow-minded to understand their plots, and you are too naive to understand what a phenomenon The Phantom Menace was. I don't need to hear your opinions because they're wrong! JJWR doesn't play in the NBA, and that is a fact. You have no idea what a fact is, obviously. It isnt a fact that "you do play in the NBA," it is a fact that you do NOT play in the NBA. My god. Then you cuss me out, which is fine, I wouldn't expect much more of you anyway. You TPM bashers are trash. Dutchy, you're a TPM basher, JJWR, so are you. CMJ, you're great, but you're still a Titanic lover. Which is fine but you didn't see TPM enough times! =) There are some great SW fans on this forum. There are also some extremely pathetic ones. I enjoy talking to people who have a little intellect and some common sense, that's why I don't care to talk to you guys about this argument anymore, it's just not fun. I don't post on forums to piss people off believe it or not, your posts just piss me off so much there is no way i can sit here and let you trash the Star Wars name. You make fun of Christianity, Christians will get after you, for sure, you make fun of Star Wars, expect the same devotion from me. TPM detractors suck. Have fun playing your Jar Jar hate games, losers.

Dutchy

Nov 12th, 1999, 06:45:14 AM

<blockquote>You have no appreciation for Star Wars, you don't appreciate what the movies represent, you're too shallow-minded to understand their plots, and you are too naive to understand what a phenomenon The Phantom Menace was. </blockquote> Jonathan, who are you talking to in your last post? You name me and JJWR in your post but it's vague to who you're talking to. Anyway, please show me where I bashed TPM. Note: this thread is not exactly the first thread I'm posting in. CMJ, nice to see you to. :) Yep, arguing with Bogus3167... those were the days. :)

jjwr

Nov 12th, 1999, 02:25:20 PM

"I don't need to hear your opinions because they're wrong! " Did you actually think about this before you posted it? You said you don't bash people's opinions and let them have their own, then you come up with this line. Again have you heard the phrase that everyone is entitled to a opinion? The fact(uh oh, that word again) think TPM is the greatest is your opinion, repeat *YOUR* *OPINION*, it is not shared by everyone. Whats what a opinion is, you have your beliefs about it, and other poeple have theirs, neither person is more right than the other. Opinion is not fact, it cannot be proven that TPM was the greatest movie of all time, thats left to the opinions of hte poeple to decide, some people think it is, others don't. "You have no appreciation for Star Wars, you don't appreciate what the movies represent, you're too shallow-minded to understand their plots, and you are too naive to understand what a phenomenon The Phantom Menace was." How do you know I have no appreciation for Star Wars? Honestly where are you getting this stuff from? Please give me some good examples of why I'm a TPM Basher, and have no appreciation for Star Wars. "JJWR doesn't play in the NBA, and that is a fact. You have no idea what a fact is, obviously. It isnt a fact that "you do play in the NBA," it is a fact that you do NOT play in the NBA." A fact is something that can be proven. Yes JJWR doesn't play in the NBA is a fact, but so is JJWR does play in the NBA. Why don't you get that? Either way it can be proven, whether its right or wrong is immaterial, what matters is it can be proven one way or the other. "Dutchy, you're a TPM basher, JJWR, so are you." Please tell me why I"m a TPM Basher, give me some good reasons why you think I am. Was it me saying I enjoyed the movie and seen it multiple times, or was it because I disagreed with your opinion? I'm eagerly waiting your response on this one. "I don't post on forums to piss people off believe it or not, your posts just piss me off so much there is no way i can sit here and let you trash the Star Wars name." Ok again I'll ask how we're trashing the Star Wars name? Its kinda obvious to me where this is going, your still very simple minded, your obviously set in your views and no matter what happens your not gonna agree with anything we say. But I still have to ask, are you saying all this stuff because we're trashing Star Wars and TPM, are we saying that its the worst movie ever made, the plot sucked, the acting was horrible, etc, etc, etc. Or are you saying all this because we've disagreed with you? I think everone here, including you, well maybe not you, you could be that dilusional, knows that its because we're disagreeing with you. The only bad comment I made about TPM was that I didn't think its plot was that deep. But you know what? Thats my opinion, I'm entitled to it. And instead of debating whether or not the plot is deep you go into a rant about how I haven't seen TPM enough times and I obviously don't understand the movie like you do. Have you ever thought of debating this? Maybe looking at both sides of, did you stop and think that maybe not everyone thought it was the greatest movie? Just because you think TPM is the best movie in a long time, doens't mean the rest of us do. Your entitled to that opinion, we respect your opinion, but its your opinion, its not ours, we have our own, and no their no less right than yours. Just because I didn't think TPM was a phenomonon, and thought the plot was great does that make me a TPM basher? I know your gonna say yes, but your not gonna give a rational explenation as to why. I've agreed with you on points, but you can't take that step and agree with me, I know your opinions are your own, and I disagree with them, and have tried to talk about it, but all I get in return is this TPM basher crap. "You make fun of Christianity, Christians will get after you, for sure, you make fun of Star Wars, expect the same devotion from me." It just keeps getting better. Star Wars is not a religion, its a set of movies. Fine you love them and think their the greatest things in the world, and thats your choice, but not all of us feel that way. Instead of bashing us for not thinking their the greatest how about some friendly debate on why they're the greatest? Had you ever thought of that? Somehow I Doubt it.

JonathanLB

Nov 12th, 1999, 11:10:06 PM

So I won't have it again with you, but YES Star Wars IS a religion. Deal with it. A fact is something that can be proven correct, not proven incorrect. You are making no sense, and obviously do not know what you're talking about. It is a fact that Star Wars: A New Hope is a movie. It is not a fact that Star Wars: A New Hope is a catfood, for example. That is wrong. Facts are only things that can be objectively proven to be true, or correct, or actual, or realized. On another note. It is a fact that The Phantom Menace has a deep plot. You can disagree, but I'd argue it is a fact because I can objectively prove it correct. Furthermore, I don't care if you agree with me on everything or not, disagreement is good, it leads to dicussion, but I must protect the Star Wars name from fake fans like TPM bashers. You are a TPM basher, make no mistakes.

CMJ

Nov 13th, 1999, 01:56:35 PM

Jon...I don't mean to chide you...BUT JJ is not a TPM basher. He is a very devoted SW fan and has been along with Scarloc and myself the most influential Jedi here for quite some time. Just because he thinks TPM wasn't as good as the other SW movies doesn't make him a basher. TPM is my 3rd favoriye of the series...it's your favorite...and it's his 4th favorite. WHO CARES??? He saw it more than once(3 times if I remember) which probably qualifies him as LIKING the movie. He didn't HATE the movie...he just wasn't TOTALLY satisfied. "Sigh" Don't start flaming me now Jon...you know I like you...:)

Dutchy

Nov 13th, 1999, 10:59:16 PM

<blockquote>It is a fact that The Phantom Menace has a deep plot. You can disagree, but I'd argue it is a fact because I can objectively prove it correct.</blockquote> Absolutely not. In your OPINION TPM had a deep plot. In my opinion it didn't (which doesn't make me a TPM basher, but for you anyone who disagrees the slightest bit with you is a TPM basher). Those are not facts, but opinions.

JonathanLB

Nov 14th, 1999, 05:09:42 AM

You always have been Dutchy. JJWR is as well. CMJ, I'd not flame you, ok. JJWR is certainly a major TPM detractor though.

Bromine

Nov 14th, 1999, 07:36:29 AM

I guess I forgot to plug my mind into the central computer and download the "correct" opinions and thoughts for the day. :) First of all, no movie is perfect. NO movie. It's impossible, especially considering everyone has differing tastes. Second, the day that posting a minor criticism about a movie constitutes some sort of complete betrayal of fandom, I'm checking into an asylum. What's so wrong with someone pointing out something which they disliked in TPM? I don't think it's possible to like a movie completely, 100%, and not have any complaints. Just because some ppl think the movie wasn't perfect doesn't make them some sort of TPM-trashing monster! Oh, btw, I thought the musical score was a little weak in spots, and I think the story would have been better if it had not left so much open for the seuquels to answer. As much as I liked TPM, in some ways it felt like I only got the first half of a movie. What I have just stated is my opinion, and I realise most ppl might feel different, but that's what's so great about movies: Everyone enjoys it for different reasons, and everyone finds movies that fit their own tastes.

yoda900

Nov 14th, 1999, 01:12:44 PM

Bromine, I was just curious as to where you felt the musical score in TPM was a little weak. And in saying so, are you a musican? Just curious. I thought the musical score was fantastic all the way through Personally. And I have played in orchestras since I was 7 all the way through college. Now onto another note, I had a realization yesterday as to another reason I think Titanic did so well, not just in the US. The reasons are in other countries, it opens much later than here, and by the time it opened in most countries, Titanic was already making such headline news for 10 straight weeks of being number one and for most it had already won so many academy awards that it sparked people worldwide to simply see what the fuss was about in every singe way. I also keep wondering about this, It seems to me that when they first announced it, they said Titainc made 1.2B worldwide, not internationally, and then suddenly it was like they added Domestic to Worldwide and came up with that figure , which if is the case since domestic is consists of half that number, it seems odd. And no, I am not like Jedi 3167, It just seemed like that to me. If anyone has any knowledge on this, or why ,let me know.

Dutchy

Nov 14th, 1999, 02:26:33 PM

Like I said, in your opinion everyone that disagrees the slightest bit with you is a TPM basher. You don't know the diference between giving honest opinions and bashing. You also don't know the difference between facts and opions, like jjwr (who is so NOT a TPM basher) perfectly explained already.

Dutchy

Nov 14th, 1999, 02:35:40 PM

Can you please give me an explanation on why you think I'm a TPM basher? That's the least you can do. By the way, do you consider yourself a Titanic basher?

Darth23

Nov 14th, 1999, 07:40:22 PM

Well the only thing I've learned from this thread is the FACT that jjwr is a liar. But thanks to him I have come to realize the FACT that TPM had already outgrossed Titanic at the Box Office. Jedi3167 will be so pleased. ;^) Generally speaking, when people use the word FACT they are refering to something which can be proved to be TRUE. I never thought I'd have to look up the word FACT before. Lets see: fact \fakt\ n [L factum] 1 a thing done 2 archaic - performance, doing 3 the quality of being actual 4 something that has actual existence 5 a piece of information presented as having objective reality - in fact: in truth As in: "Jonathan's (unfortunate) display of homophobia to defend TPM and attack Titianic is a FACT". So unless my Mirriam Webstar's Collegiate Dictionary (10th edition) is wrong, I don't think the CLAIM that jjwr plays in the NBA is indeed a FACT.

Bromine

Nov 15th, 1999, 03:14:50 AM

Yoda900 - To be honest, I have taken basic music lessons, but I am hardly anywhere NEAR knowledgeable about music, nor very good at it. :) Actually, I think "weak" may have been the wrong word. The score was much better than most movie scores I've heard, but it just seemed rather weak compared to the original trilogy; although, considering how good the Original Trilogy soundtrack was, that's not really a put-down. I liked DOTF, Darth Maul's Theme, and was happy to see the return of the Emporer's Theme, but I didn't really enjoy the rest at least not like I did with the originals.

jjwr

Nov 15th, 1999, 11:14:10 AM

You still don't get what facts and opinions mean do you? Its your opinion it had a deep plot, its mine that it didn't. A fact is something can be proven, it doesn't need to be correct. I'm not a TPM basher, I never was. Your too narrowminded to see that, so be it. I'd continue this but its going nowhere. You say Star Wars is a religion? I guess that would make sense seeing as your discriminating against people who disagree with you, that is something thats common in religious debates. I never thought highly of you, after this thread I think even less, your narrow minded, you try and force your opinions on others, your fanatical, and your a dick head. I'll leave it at that.

yoda900

Nov 15th, 1999, 12:41:13 PM

I see what you are saying then. You simply liked the score more of the others.:) I guess when I saw the word weak, I thought that seemed odd since Jon Williams is such a great composer, ie, not just SW, but we all know he did ET,Jaws,Jurrasic Park,Shindler's List,Indiana Jones, The NBC nightly news theme, and many more. DOTF was definitely awesome like you said! I gotta give the guy a lot of credit to make a soundtrack to a prequel of the greatest trilogy in movies with great sound alrady, yet making it differnt enough but still have it somewhat recognizable. I can see some of the themes developing into the ones we know well over the next 2 flicks.

jjwr

Nov 15th, 1999, 01:07:29 PM

Ok so I could be wrong on the whole fact thing, I never actually looked it up :) I always took fact to mean something that can be proven, whether its right or wrong.

Darth23

Nov 15th, 1999, 03:13:58 PM

I think that in general a lot of opinions are put forth as if there is NO NEED for proof. (Especially on the Basher Board). One person may think tat there was too much kiddie stuff, or that Anakin should have been bawling his eyes out when he left home, or that the plot was weak, and ANOTHER person may feel exactly the opposite. As for the music, I think TPMs music is great. I think there was a lot of stuff left out of the Soundtrack that could have been included.

BristerM

Jul 30th, 2000, 06:01:18 PM

Holy @#%$! The length of this thread makes my 'male nudity' thread look like Jonathan's penis...just kidding, Jon.

I read through this whole thread since it's raining and there's nothing to do, and the discussion was quite interesting. Seems like everyone hated Jonathan then.

JonathanLB and Jonathan1138 are the same person, right?

Jedieb

Jul 30th, 2000, 08:09:21 PM

You're a dangerous man when you're bored Brister. ;)

BristerM

Jul 30th, 2000, 08:50:21 PM

Thanks. I'll take that as a compliment, Jedieb.

Darth23

Jul 30th, 2000, 09:13:06 PM

Well I like what I said.... :-P

Bromine

Jul 30th, 2000, 10:12:15 PM

BristerM, that was nasty, but I'm LMAO!:)

BristerM

Jul 30th, 2000, 11:09:01 PM

Yes, I have quite the gross-out appeal.

90 posts!! Whoo-hoo!

Atreyu

Jul 31st, 2000, 12:48:17 AM

Me posting a thread????

That has 90+ posts????

Will wonders ever cease???? :)

BristerM

Jul 31st, 2000, 08:40:22 AM

Yep Atreyu, that's 92 posts for you. That's gotta be some kinda board record.

Jedieb

Jul 31st, 2000, 11:08:24 AM

He's back!!!! :0 That's what I meant by dangerous Brister. I'm so scared... I mean really scared, BWP kinda scared....

BristerM

Jul 31st, 2000, 11:21:35 AM

Calm down Jedieb! You're beginning to arou...frighten me!

Atreyu

Jul 31st, 2000, 07:11:44 PM

That's gotta be some kinda board record.
I wish - the roleplaying forum had a 3000 post thread a while back. :)

BristerM

Aug 1st, 2000, 11:56:13 PM

3000???????? Whoa!

Ashedrav

Aug 3rd, 2000, 07:55:21 AM

Let's not forget that over 75% of TPM's final domestic gross was made in it's first month telling me in my (note for Jon) OPINION, that hype drove this movie to make so much. It was the movie to see in May and June, but I believe that after that only die-hard fans saw it.

Titanic's run on the other hand never dropped until about 4 or 5 months after it's release. Correct me if I am wrong, but I believe that Titanic is the only movie in the top ten that was released not in the summer. The fact that it made that much in a typically slow BO season is even more remarkable.

In regards to Titanic's SFX. I think it's nice to see that the Academy is rewarding Films with SFX that are just dinosaurs, meteors, and sci-fi creatures. Films like Gump, Babe, Titanic all films with realistic effects that won an Oscar. I say Kudos to the Academy for awarding films with much less subtle effects.

Jon I bet your the type of guy who only digs movies that have explosions in them or ones with super cool CG creatures and every other movie that is not Star Wars or testosterone fueled is merely crap made by "homosexuals."

Typically when someone's only defense to call someone gay or imply that they are usually has something interesting to hide. Feel like making any confessions?

Some film recommendations for you:

Chasing Amy
American Beauty

Remember they're not SW films, so I know sitting through them will be tough, but I'm sure you'll find some characters you can relate to in both those films.

And BTW, GO OUTSIDE!

BristerM

Aug 3rd, 2000, 01:54:26 PM

OK that post was quite anal. iiiiihhhhh

BristerM

Aug 3rd, 2000, 01:56:14 PM

TIMMAHHHHHHHHH!!!!!!!!!!!!!

BristerM

Aug 3rd, 2000, 01:58:13 PM

Just pushing the total number of posts in this thread over 100. YES!!!!!

JonathanLB

Apr 4th, 2001, 10:40:31 PM

That is not an opinion matter. It is a matter of fact that The Phantom Menace did not succeed based on hype alone, provable through other facts. All you need is to understand the box office to realize that.

The movie made over $125 million in the months after its first, which is incredible since only a few hundred movies have ever made over $125 million TOTAL, let alone after the lucrative first month.

The Phantom Menace continued to experience low declines each weekend, whereas Godzilla plummetted, as do all movies that are heavily hyped but not enjoyable. So, it is a fact, and not up for debate, that The Phantom Menace enjoyed its success based on word of mouth and quality (as perceived by the majority of people, not you). The facts just speak for themselves, once you read my book (not that you will, so the point is moot), then you will (would) have to agree with the conclusions established from an analysis of the facts.

94% of the people who saw the movie rated it "excellent" or "very good," and 74% of Entertainment Weekly readers said they were likely to see the movie a second time! All of the stats, from every publication, prove TPM's success as a matter of the movie's quality. No film can make over $300 million without being very popular. No film can clear $200 million without either the biggest opening weekend ever (Lost World), or being very popular.

Darth23

Apr 5th, 2001, 01:41:47 AM

That was a highly articulate and amazingly non-derisive argument.
.
.
.
.
.
.
.

And just a LITTLE late.

:D

jjwr

Apr 5th, 2001, 08:36:42 AM

Wow this was a fun thread :)

I do have a few comments though, and I am not writing this to encite a flame war just curious about a few things and have thoughts on another

94% of the people who saw the movie rated it "excellent" or "very good," and 74% of Entertainment Weekly readers said they were likely to see the movie a second time! All of the stats, from every publication, prove TPM's success as a matter of the movie's quality. No film can make over $300 million without being very popular. No film can clear $200 million without either the biggest opening weekend ever (Lost World), or being very popular

Out of curiosity where did you get those two % numbers above? I think they're misleading. They should say ##% of the people who were polled who saw the movie or read the magazine think..... I saw the movie a number of times in the theatre but was never polled on how good it was and I've been a EW reader sine then and have yet to be polled by them. I'm sure both numbers are still high I just think they could be clarified a bit as to their content.

As for the movie making over $300 million, I think the hype was what helped it make so much so quickly. Not necessarily hype getting people who wouldn't normally see it to go but the long wait from all the Star Wars fans(and there are TONS! of em) building up into a huge roar by the time the movie was released. We had waited 16 years and everyone wanted to see the new one right now. I think they all would have seen it anyways but with all the marketing and attention this movie was getting it was being brought to the forefront of the national conscious(sp?) and it seems that was making people want to see it more.

That and I think this movie would have made $300 million even if it totally blew, I think $300 million was a given for the next Star Wars movie. Though Ep2, If its bad won't do as well, people have only waited 3yrs and won't be as forgiving.

Jedieb

Apr 5th, 2001, 11:30:14 AM

You dug pretty deep to bring this ol' thread back Jon. Are you on Spring Break or something? ;)

I think there are certain things that you can surmise from TPM's BO run. The movie certainly didn't earn its money from hype. If it had you would have seen a sharp decline after its opening. I think that The Lost World is the perfect film to compare it to since they both had similiar openings. TPM was even at a slight disadvantage because TLW edged it out that first weekend. So why did TPM's final BO numbers dwarf TLW? Word of mouth. TPM had a huge opening, and then followed it with small declines. These small declines are what pushed it past the $400M mark. Poor word of mouth or widespread dissatisfaction would have given you TLW type of numbers. And if peoiple hated it you would have seen Godzilla or Batman and Robin numbers. Hype can only get you so far.

What TPM didn't do was establish the long term buzz that Titanic, ANH, or ET did. I'd really like to see line graphs comparing the BO runs of the last 3 movies to hold the number 1 spot. I'd wager that they would be very similiar. Strong openings and then remarkably small declines over their runs. In fact, I'd bet you might even spot a spike in some part of their runs. (Something like Titanic's Valentine's Day spike, oh the horror..) This isn't to say that TPM didn't have strong legs and good word of mouth. It just didn't have the kind of steam you need to take the top spot. ANH, ET, and Titanic did.

Dutchy

Apr 5th, 2001, 02:09:52 PM

The Phantom Menace continued to experience low declines each weekend, whereas Godzilla plummetted, as do all movies that are heavily hyped but not enjoyable. So, it is a fact, and not up for debate, that The Phantom Menace enjoyed its success based on word of mouth and quality (as perceived by the majority of people, not you).

TPM definitely had an impressive run, agreed. It was not based on quality though. When will you stop saying that a lot of money also means a good movie? It doesn't work that way at all. TPM was a very popular movie event and prooved to be an excellent blockbuster, since the drop off rates were low and the repeat viewings were high. But all that doesn't say anthing about the quality. Though I'll sure admit that TPM is an entertaining movie.

94% of the people who saw the movie rated it "excellent" or "very good,"

LOL, yeah the very first exit-poll or whatever. Great reference, Jonathan.

Jedi Master Carr

Apr 5th, 2001, 03:24:17 PM

If I understood you, you said that TPM was not a good movie but it is an entertaining movie. So what is the difference? To me at least any film that is entertaining is also a good movie. Also the money does matter, I can't stand that argument that how much money it makes does necessary means how good it is. Sure making 100 million doesn't mean anything but 300 sure must because if he was terrible I doubt that many people would go see it.

flagg

Apr 5th, 2001, 06:06:54 PM

I agree that TPM's $430 million box office total came from people actually enjoying the movie and not the hype. If you look at the longevity of every film released that summer, i.e. the final total divided by the opening weekend gross, then TPM was second only to The Sixth Sense. I think Box Office Guru has all the figures.
That doesn't mean that TPM was a great movie, of course, but the fact that it had a smaller opening than Lost World, but ended up making almost twice as much, shows it connected with the audience pretty well. :)

Dutchy

Apr 6th, 2001, 09:55:04 AM

Sure making 100 million doesn't mean anything but 300 sure must because if he was terrible I doubt that many people would go see it.

And if it makes 2 times 300, then it must be an excellent movie? That's not the impression I get here looking at the opinion here on Titanic.

Entertaining doesn't make it a good movie. For yourself, yes, but objectively, no.

Darth23

Apr 6th, 2001, 11:48:06 AM

There's no such thing as 'objectively'.

Will you stop saying THAT?

:D

Personally, I think the only important thing is whether or nor you liked, enjoyed, connected with or were moved by a movie. Pseudo objective lists of the 'best' movies are BS, really. (imo)

I really don't care in the least if a move is supposed to be onthe the 'ten greatest of all time' or something. I might watch a movie [won't] if it's on a list like that , but I certainly once watch it again, or buy in on dvd and recommed it to others unless I personally found something of value in it.

JonathanLB

Apr 6th, 2001, 07:17:34 PM

Dutchy has made a basic error in understanding, though, and especially of reading.

I do not believe I said that the amount of money tells you whether or not a movie is good (again, defined by the majority, which means Titanic IS a good movie -- and I would agree that it is at least "good"). HOWEVER, the percentage of the total gross that the opening weekend represents DOES WITHOUT A DOUBT tell you how audiences perceived the quality of the movie at that point in history (films such as Blade Runner sucked at the box office, but are now renowned for their quality).

I don't care if a movie only made $3 million opening weekend, if that film goes on to make $30 million then I am super impressed! That must have enjoyed good word of mouth, because otherwise it couldn't have made ten times as much as it opened with.

So, it is not the number of dollars, or millions, but the percentage declines, and specifically the percentage of the total that the first weekend represents (which, for movies like TPM, Titanic, SS, Jurassic Park, etc. are great!).

Titanic proved its popularity not through its $600 million, which is super amazing, but through its longevity and the fact that less than 5% of its total was from opening weekend, which is absolutely amazing for a movie that made over $200 million. The only other time you might see that is if a film opens with $1 million and makes $22 million or something, which is NOT the same, lol. Not at all.

To answer the question of why I brought this up, it was actually just a funny coincidence. See, I have been talking to Craig Faris a lot lately by e-mail, because he has put me in touch with a friend of his who is a major New York literary agent (maybe the most prominent in the nation), and so he sent me this thread link and said something like, "Do you remember when we used to debate Titanic vs. Star Wars," or something like that. So, I went and took a look back at what thread it was, and much to my shock I had left ignorant statements unanswered.

Surely, you must know that I like getting the last word in, especially if I'm right! :)

I like the T-Shirt, "I'm not opinionated, I'm just always right."

No, but in this case, we are dealing with facts and figures, not opinions.

Nobody can deny that Titanic was extremely popular at the box office, and one would be stupid to argue against that.

You'd also be stupid to say that TPM made its money on hype, though there are many stupid people out there. I had someone (who I know in real life, he's a dick) say that on my school forum the other day, and his only response to my intelligent comments (his were littered with swear words) were yet more swear words and "f*** that b****** Lucas, he's not creative and he's not even a good businessman." Umm...ok, at that point I stopped talking to this guy. I don't have time to waste on that level of stupidity.

Now, if you want to tell me that TPM made its $105 million in 5 days because of hype, I TOTALLY AGREE!!! That is how you make money on the opening weekend of any movie. There is no such thing as a major opening that wasn't created by hype. No. Such. Thing.

However, the second weekend is a true telling feature for every movie.

I will look forward to maybe having some of you guys check out my book when it is published, because I wrote about 29 pages (40 manuscript pages) on the North American box office. There are many arguments I presented there that we've argued about a good deal (by we I do not mean us Star Wars TPM fans, but more like Titanic and TPM bashers vs. TPM fans).

I would also like to mention something, just so that Dutchy doesn't think I'm totally unreasonable and set on my ways (too late!). I found our numerous debates with Dutchy to be extremely useful when writing my box office chapter. I really worked hard to make sure that when I presented the reasons why TPM was not able to triumph over Titanic, they were fair and understandable, and that I never said a negative word about the film, actually. If you read through three of my chapters on the box office, Menacing Expectations, North American Box Office, and International Box Office, then you'd probably think I am a Titanic fan. There is nothing to do but praise such a successful film when you are merely talking about financial aspects, as I never delved into the quality of the films during the box office chapters.

I also wrote them with Dutchy in mind, actually, because I know that he is a strong debater, and everything I said in the book needed to be backed up by solid facts and figures, or not stated at all. Having argued with the Titanic supporters, but specifically Dutchy, for many months was actually invaluable.

You cannot truly write a good argument unless you fully understand (at least from an academic perspective) the opposing views, I think.

I would agree that E.T., ANH, and Titanic all performed in a different way than even TPM. TPM was a phenomenal success, but it was, after all, another film in a series, and not something so entirely new that it captivated and surprised audiences in the way that ANH did, and in the way that Titanic did (especially with girls, and trust me, I know many many girls who saw it in the range of 3-9 times). E.T. was also similar, but TPM is the most successful summer movie since E.T. in 1982.

E.T., amazingly, was #1 at the box office for three weeks, then was defeated by another film, but reclaimed #1 after a week (or a few?) and stayed there for many, many more weeks, like Titanic.

ANH was #1 all summer long basically, hehe, but that was 1977. That will never happen again in the summer, though you may see a film be able to hold #1 for a few weeks in May, then lose it in June, and keep doing well until by July it is #1 again for a week or two...it could happen.

You wanted to know where I got my percentages, sheesh, how could I not have put that in the original post? Sorry...

According to Variety, based on exit polls from the first weekend, 94% of moviegoers polled felt the movie was "excellent" or "very good." According to CNN/Gallup the percentage was lower, but 85% (I believe) still recommended it. EW readers gave it an A-, which I think dropped to a B+ after a few months (the non-fans saw the film, hehe). There were only, I think, two or three films to get an A rating average from EW readers in 1999, and they were also all A-'s, so TPM was right there.

Entertainment Weekly polled people in their "critical mass" survey, which you could have participated in actually. It was not the same as Variety's, which was more scientific and calculated.

I don't know what CinemaScore gave TPM, but I think it would be around the A to A+ level (even Exit Wounds got an A- from CinemaScore audience ratings).

You don't need to look at the polls if you don't want, you can look right at the box office figures for a more objective picture, but I feel that an accumulation of several polls, or in this case three, is objective proof. Polls are generally not totally reliable when you just consider ONE Of them, but if you look at 3, or 5, or 10, then you begin to see a better picture.

For instance, the fact that ANH won the Washington Post's reader survey about 3 years ago as the best movie ever was nice, but the fact that it also won every single other poll in the last 3 years is much more impressive and begins to show the trend. My chapter Anticipation (my book) titled "Critical Reviews" explains the poll success of the SW films, and the critical successes and failures of all of the SW films.

I will tell you guys when I actually have an agent for the book, because that will pretty much mean I'll have a publisher within a short time after that. (According to most books on the industry, agents are much harder to get than publishers).

Darth23

Apr 7th, 2001, 12:23:59 AM

I don't know about Dutchy, but I'M expecting a Free Copy.

>:-}

Jedi Master Carr

Apr 7th, 2001, 01:17:40 AM

Jon, I must say that is the best well defined argument I have seen you make on here, (not saying the others were terrible just that this one was the best). You do a great job explaining TPM's box office success without looking like a Titanic basher. I also agree with you that Titanic was a good movie showed by its box office. Also I think I found one of those type of films you mentioned that did 10 times its opening day gross, Galaxy Quest. I am not sure how much it made but I know it opened poorly but ended up making 75-80 million, hey it could be another example for your book. Bye the way let me know when you get it published I would love to read it.

JonathanLB

Apr 7th, 2001, 02:26:56 AM

Thank you, well that was a more informal way to write about the box office, my book is more carefully thought out, but yes that is the general argument.

I actually feel that Titanic is a good movie, and a great one from the technical perspective, but just the love story part and some of the dialogue makes it more like a solid 3 star movie than "the greatest movie ever." I know we casually say, "Titanic sucks!" but actually it is not a bad film. It's a good film, especially compared to most other ones out there, and its success was incredibly impressive, nobody can take that away.

I do not say things like "Titanic succeeded because it had no competition." No, that is not true, but I do mention that Titanic might have enjoyed increased success because of less competition. For instance, if the season had been more competetive, then instead of $600 million, it might have made $510 million or something...

I believe that, anyway, because box office competition definitely matters. I cannot tell you how many times during the summer that three movies opened on the same weekend, all of which I wanted to see, and ended up not seeing one of the three films at all in theaters. Now, if only two had opened, I'd have seen that third film instead...

You are right about Galaxy Quest, that film was extremely sturdy. There's nothing wrong with opening low when you can maintain such momentum. Look at a film like The General's Daughter. That film somehow made over $100 million, but was NEVER #1 at the box office, and actually was it ever #2? I don't think it was. That is incredible, and it sort of slipped in below the radar, even while making over $100 mil...Now, it's staying power wasn't incredible or something, but given the vast competition, it was notable I thought.

Notice how when I brought this thread to the top I brought Dutchy back? That is cool, maybe he has a "notify me if..." dealie set, haha. See, there are good things about digging up old threads.

I will tell you when I have a publisher, or actually when I have an agent, because that'll essentially mean I'll have a publisher within possibly weeks or days.

I read in one book that the best NY agents are able to get an early comment about a client's book in 48 hours!! That is called an initial reaction, I guess, and it can be something like, "That sounds interesting, but I need to talk to my superior about whether we have room in our schedule for the book," or something along those lines. Many of the agents can then have a final contract in two weeks or less, if the book is easy to sell.

Mine should be easy to sell, because nonfiction generally is when it relates to a hot topic, which Star Wars is fairly hot compared to, say, "How to Filet Pigeon," haha. Fiction books are extremely hard to say, I feel sorry for great writers who are on their first novel, and cannot find a publisher.

I want to launch a website for my book in the next 6 weeks or so possibly, and with the permission of a publisher (when I have one), I want to offer the introduction as a sample chapter to visitors of the site.

Darth, haha, I would love to give everyone a free copy, but that won't be possible since I have to pay for the copies personally.

The only thing I could offer is signed copies at no additional price (I know, you always wanted my signature right? haha, not).

I have agreed (in the proposal) to purchase 500 copies from my publisher at a discount rate equal to the royalties that I would receive if the books were sold in stores. I plan to sell those copies to either contacts online (a small number), or many people I know in real life.

The idea that I wanted to implement, and have discussed with my parents, is throwing a publication party and having several hundred of my parents' friends and business partners (or whatever) over to our house, but charging some amount of money that covered the cost of catering, and gave everyone a signed copy of the book.

For instance, if the book is $15, then the party might be something like $75 or whatever. Then, I want to donate some percentage of the money to charity, say 10-15%. I discuss how great it is that Lucas gives back to society in my book, and I feel that helping other people is a great thing to do too, so I'd like to use the opportunity to raise some money. It probably wouldn't be much, but maybe $1,000 or so.

Ok so back to the box office, let's let Dutchy respond here eventually :)

Jedieb

Apr 7th, 2001, 10:50:30 PM

I was just curious, the last non-fiction book about SW I remember seeing in stores was one of those "The Science of ______" books and the recently released "The Journey of Luke Skywalker: An Analysis of Modern Myth and Symbol." Can anyone think of some others?

JonathanLB

Apr 8th, 2001, 02:42:55 AM

I have heard good things about the Science of Star Wars book or whatever it is called, and as for other recent ones, well...

There are the older ones now such as The Magic of Myth, Empire Building (1996 I believe), and those unofficial biographies of Lucas, which he hates, haha.

I wonder what happened to Garry Jenkins anyway. He wrote Empire Building, but you'd think he would have followed through and written a book about The Phantom Menace. Possibly he is waiting for all three prequels before writing a book? Damn, he must not care about details, because that would be about a 1,000 page book.

I want to write one on each of the films, and a final one on the entire trilogy (this one would be smaller, and I'm not sure about it yet. Possible, it would be a derivative work mostly).

If Jenkins had anything like that planned, he better scratch those plans real fast, LOL, because my books will eliminate the need for another Empire Building. I loved that book, and I intend to take his place now :)

Jedieb

Apr 8th, 2001, 11:13:34 AM

Jenkins has been writting biographies on celebrities such as Harrison Ford and Daniel Day Lewis. He even wrote some book on a British flier I believe. He's been busy working on other projects obviously.

JonathanLB

Apr 8th, 2001, 10:22:16 PM

I guess he didn't want to tap into the lucrative Star Wars market again, hehe :)

Oh well, there are always people to fill his place. *coughs* Me.

His book, Empire Building, is one of my favorites ever, actually. He's awesome. :)

Ashedrav

Apr 17th, 2001, 06:46:05 PM

"I do mention that Titanic might have enjoyed increased success because of less competition. "

Jon, just curious, I always thought that TITANIC's success during what is considered a slow box office season makes it all the more remarkable. What's your take on that? seriously :) ?

P.S. BTW, I must say that some of the recent points you brought up on this whole crazy issue are some of the best I've ever read from you.

Kyp Durron

Apr 17th, 2001, 07:13:56 PM

Ahhh, this thread brings back great memories! So, um, how close are we to Titanic now? :D Heh-heh. That was fun wasn't it?

Darth23

Apr 17th, 2001, 09:14:34 PM

Hey Kyp!

Kyp Durron

Apr 18th, 2001, 12:46:47 PM

What's up Darth23! Nice to see all you guys again!

JonathanLB

Apr 19th, 2001, 03:27:28 AM

Well that is an interesting take on the situation.

The slow box office season, though, does not mean that people have all of the sudden become tired of films, or that they hate movies and don't want to go to theaters. Usually, lulls in box office activity result from inferior film product.

Aside from Titanic, the other movies that were out at the time just weren't worth seeing. Titanic was a major summer blockbuster that happened to be pushed from its release frame during the summer into the still-lucrative holiday season. Bond provided some initial competition, and there were some good films out in December and the first part of January, but then Titanic faced films that were seriously making $6 or $7 million in second place in some occassions.

Because people enjoyed Titanic, they took their friends and returned to see it again and again, or they recommended it strongly to others, and nothing else was in the marketplace to convince moviegoers that seeing Titanic over and over was a bad decision. Heck, I felt the same way about summer 1999. Most of the films weren't worth my money anyway, so I just watched TPM a ton of times. I loved the summer of 2000, though, and I hate to say it, but I think that if TPM had come out in the summer of 2000, I'd have seen it at least ten fewer times. I couldn't have resisted seeing M:I-2, Gladiator, or X-Men, among others, whereas nothing during the summer of '99 forced me to change my plan of just seeing TPM, hehe.

Titanic's success was remarkable simply because few movies in history have ever exhibited such phenomenal staying power. There have been more impressive box office runs, such as A New Hope's, because the film had a relatively dinky budget and managed to stay at #1 for something like 17 weeks in a row, and 21 non-consecutive weeks total. Nevertheless, comparing ANH's success to Titanic's is unfair because in 1977 many movies played all summer long and in general movies enjoyed more time in theaters, but Titanic competed in a marketplace where most films can never spend two weekends at #1, let alone frickin' FIFTEEN.

Also, I'm not criticizing Titanic's success for the lack of competition that was present during its release. First, that is no fault of Titanic, and second, A New Hope also faced pretty weak competition. Many of the highest grossing movies have taken advantage of weak box office periods, and the movies that competed against ANH were all pretty much lightweights. I think ANH topped the nearest film in 1977 by FOUR times, which is pretty much amazing. Titanic beat Lost World in 1997 by almost three times, which is also incredible, but ANH's margin of victory shows how much moviegoers cared about the rest of the films in release, and that is to say not much! lol.

You won't find criticisms of Titanic in my book, though you will find praise of its success. I certainly do write a fair amount about the rivarly between Titanic fans and Star Wars fans, because I feel it is interesting and set the stage for TPM at the box office. I had some comments from Lucas about the "battle," and also mentioned the media's creation of it, basically. Yeah it existed, but the media stoked the flames through their articles, many of which probably pissed Titanic fans off to no end (such as, "Everyone knows that The Phantom Menace will crush Titanic like a toy boat in a bathtub," or whatever). Nevertheless, the comments that initially irked Titanic fans later came back to piss Star Wars fans off too, because the reason for some people's criticism of TPM's success stems from the expectation that it WOULD *without a doubt* defeat Titanic. Nothing is so certain, and everyone (including me) should have realized that expecting a prequel (or a part in a series) to become the highest grossing movie is probably not realistic. That is not to say it cannot happen, though, and that is not to say anyone was wrong for thinking it would.

For instance, how could you look at all of the media hype for TPM and NOT feel like it would become #1? It's hard to see through the hype, sometimes. Star Wars fans should be incredibly happy that TPM didn't pull a Godzilla or a Batman and Robin, or a Lost World. Those films fell like rocks at the box office, and TPM really did well. It's hilarious that the media would see any shame in becoming the second highest grossing movie of all-time worldwide, and the second highest grossing movie in the U.S. in one theatrical release (since ANH, ranked 2nd, took 6 releases to get there). I dunno, personally I'd be pretty darn happy with the 25 or so records that TPM set. $50 million speed increments from $100 to $350 million, highest grossing non-holiday Monday, Tuesday, Wednesday, Thursday, Friday, Saturday, and Sunday (yup every day). Highest grossing non-holiday weekend, highest grossing second weekend in history, the records continue. Not a movie to be treated as a failure; the media is pretty absurd! LOL.