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View Full Version : Why I think Episode I sucks, hopes for Ep. II



PhilR8
Apr 19th, 2001, 07:15:48 PM
This post is mega-ass long. Read at your own risk.

I can respect that you all love Episode 1, I enjoyed it, to an extent, as well. But to say it was a great movie is not the truth. The original Star Wars was a cultural event that EVERYONE was involved in. People from every race, creed, etc watched and enjoyed the re-invention of science fiction in the form of Star Wars. the Empire Strikes Back was a phenomenal sequel and benefitted from the massive popularity of the first movie, as the fan base was already formed and Lucas could take some liberties with the format, like no introduction and a much darker tone with an end that had no resolution. This kept fans wanting more, and Lucas realized he could not only make bookoo bucks from the film but also from liscensing the characters as well in the form of toys and whatnot. I think this is ultimately where Lucas turned to the dark side, making the movie for profit instead of enjoyment of film. The ewoks were a blatant ploy to draw in a new generation to love Star Wars. I do not disagree with him doing that, as it was very shrewd of him to include a hook for those who may have been too young to have enjoyed the first movies. Ultimately, though, this could have been done, I think, without "dumbing down" the content for children. The entire battle on Endor was sanitized for children. Of course, ROTJ is still a great movie because it did incorporate mature and epic moments in the form of the SPace battle, the awesome lightsaber fight, the twist at the end that nobody saw coming, and of course, Leia's fantastic bikini. That said, the original trilogy is a masterpiece in film-making.

Episode 1, however, is far from a masterpiece.

The sanitization of star wars, while controlled in ROTJ, runs rampant and is uncontrolled in Episode 1. Episode 1 relied on the fan base, the vast fan base, to bring in revenue, as Lucas realized everyone was anticipating this movie to the extent that they would have loved anything he put on the screen, just because it was new material. yes, Episode 1 is incredibly beautiful and a treat to look at. The environment is realized with great beauty and craftsmanship. The story, the acting, and everything else, in my opinion, is definately not up to the standard of the original trilogy. I know, I know, this has all been written before, the annoyed fanboy who was disappointed with Episode 1, etc. But the fact is that Episode 1 did not have the same effect on the population as the original did. I realize it would be a bit presumptuous to expect Episode 1 to duplicate or surpass the original's impact on society, as it was truly revolutionary. But would it be too much to ask for Lucas to have spun a mature and competant story with good acting? Look at the cast, the cast of Episode 1 is truly phenomenal. So many great actors were pulled together to make this film. And yet, noone can deny the acting isdecent at best. I would venture to say the acting is bad. Ewan Mcgregor and Liam Neeson, ususally commanding on screen, looked like they were sleep-walking through the film. Samuel L Jackson was in the movie very briefly and did not add anything that could not have been added by anyone else. The only thing he brought to the table was facial recognition so the older fans in the audience could giggle. Natalie Portman, while a pretty face (a VERY pretty face) also monotonely recited her lines as if reading a cue card. Why was this veritable pool of talent wasted?

I think Anakin was the worst aspect of the entire movie. I realize the kid is just a, well, a kid, but many child actors could have done a better job than he did. It was just painful to watch. And Jar Jar. DO any of you think Jar Jar contributed ANYTHING to the movie? Jar Jar took AWAY from the movie. Every time he spoke made me cringe. Every time he clumsily stumbled over something stupidly it made me wince. Jar Jar was an unforgivable addition to Episode 1, put forth by Lucas solely to make the kids laugh. I can understand that like the Ewoks, Lucas was trying to hook the new generation of children to enjoy star wars with the ridiculous antics of Jar Jar, with the fact that a little kid saves the day, with the fact that the robotic army looked like rejects from Keystone Kops.

The Robotic Army really showed how much Lucas has bastardized the Star Wars universe. The original movies were not afraid to show the violence of war. War is not funny. Showing the frank reality of war (which was done very competantly in the original trilogy even though the heros used laser guns and swords, things that almost seem absurd to most of the people today) made us care for the plight of the heroes. Leia was interrogated and tortured! The Stormtroopers killed the poorly equipped members of the rebellion! Vader not only murdered those in the rebellion but also did not hesitate to kill those in his own army that showed the least bit of incompetance! The empire destroyed an entire peaceful planet! All of these elements really made the Empire seem evil and a force to be reckoned with, definately something to be afraid of. While thise fear was diluted somewhat in ROTJ, it was still present in the form of Vader and the Emporer, the pinnacle of all evil. In Episode 1, none of these elements are present. the Trade federation is not a scary name. The EMPIRE seems ominous even when you just say it. The Trade fedeartion? And their group of bumbling remote controlled idiots, whom even JAR JAR can defeat? I did not fear for the lives of any of the characters in Episode 1. I did not fele the tension, the feeling of urgency that was present in Star Wars: A New Hope as the Death Star destroyed Alderaan and was about to destroy the rebel base on Yavin IV. Those moments MADE Star Wars, all the evidence and build up that led you, if you had not seen ANH before, to wonder if the rebels would be saved. it was a nail-biter, to be sure. The Empire Strikes back took this feeling to the next level, having the entire movie based on the fact that the Empire was winning. The enitre movie, the Rebellion never won. At the end of the movie, a feeling of disbelief was instilled in the audience. Lucas truly succeeded with ESB: it is his greatest work to date. After Star Wars turned science fiction on it's head, ESB did it AGAIN. ANd to counter the depressing and unbelievable ESB, Lucas made Return of the jedi, which wrapped up all the loose end and had the Rebellion kick some major ass. A truly epic, truly inspiring end to a fantastic trilogy that made you go home feeling good, feeling fulfilled that the heros you so dearly cared about were safe and victorious. THe original trilogy was AWESOME.

None of that is present in Episode 1. My main point of this post was originally to shame those who contributed to the massive success of Episode 1, but I got a little carried away. osrry for the massive length of this post, but those of you who contributed to the massive success of a BAD MOVIE have just given Lucas all the more reason to continue making these bad movies. He sees that fanboys will see a bad movie 20, 30, even fifty times and pay for it every time. Lucas made mad cash off of Episode 1, and will most likely off of Episodes 2 and 3. I will see both upcoming prequels, and still remain optimistic that Episode 1 was just the hook to re-ignite the flame that may have dwindled in the 20 years between the new material. Maybe Lucas did not want to take any chances with the parents of America to make a wholesome movie for children. That is fine for Lucas, he is the billionaire and he owns the property, he can do with it as he wishes. But had Episode 1 not flopped but struggled, like it SHOULD HAVE, Lucas would have learned that fan boys want competant and mature movies. But Episode 1 did awesomely, and Lucas has no reason to divert from the sacharrine kid-friendly formula that made Episode 1 a box office success and a critical failure. If that turns out to be true, we have only ourselves to blame.

Thanks for letting me get that off of my chest.

JonathanLB
Apr 19th, 2001, 11:50:57 PM
haha, yeah ok whatever.

Been there, done that. TPM is a masterpiece.

PhilR8
Apr 20th, 2001, 12:22:30 AM
Just out of curiousity, why do you think that? How is it a masterpiece? I don't see it.

Jedi Master Carr
Apr 20th, 2001, 01:51:19 AM
Jonathan just didn't want to respond to it because he was one of the several here who defended it after TPM came out. So, for now I will try to answer some of your points, I'm sure somebody else might better argue our cause. First off I have little to no problems with TPM I see as a great movie, entertaining and terrific. Sure it is not a dark film but it is not suspose to be, it is the introduction of the story and the Star Wars universe at this time is much more colorful which is why Lucas purposly put in Jar Jar and all the funny antics that you pointed out. Next to your point about Violence, Lucas will never show violence in any of the star wars movie, every one will be PG, obivisoly the next two films will be much darker but I doubt we will see people gorly getting killed like in saving private Ryan. We never saw the gore in the original trilogy, we rarly saw any blood and you mentioned that Leia was tortured, yet we never saw that, it was implied. Lucas wants to make a movie that everybody can enjoy and I implaud him for that. There are defintely ways one can avoid showing gore and sex and it will not hurt the film any. That is one point that I wanted to make the next is the acting. I had no problem with the acting of most of the principals. I thought Nesson did a great job and dominated much of the film. Sure Mcgregor's perfromance was low key but I expect big things from him in EP 2, and I had no problem with Jackson because as we know now he is going to have a huge role in the next movie so obvisily we can see his role in TPM as a way to introduce his character to us. I guess next I better tackle Jake Lloyd. I had no problem with him in the movie for the most part, I thought he did okay considering he was suppose to be only 9, he is what I would expect from a 9 year old, so I kind of overlook some of the problems he had. Next Jar Jar, unlike many star wars fans I had almost no problem with Jar Jar ( I just wish they would have had subtitles when he talked because I only understood half of what he said) I see Jar Jar like Chewbacca who nobody understood either except that he did a lot of goof ball things. I think Lucas added Jar Jar like you said to hook in kids and it worked, my nephew loves him to death. Finally I want to destroy your point about the Trade Federation army, they were clumsy, awkward, and stupid, but that was the point and I think it will be that reason that the emperor will decide to use a clone army to create his legion of stormtroopers (this is just my guess I have always believed they were clones they were just too many of them and they were all the identical weight and height to me its just obivious). That is why Lucas showed them like keystone cops because to show how incompente a robotic army was and also how incompete the Trade Federation was to show how they were all just pawns in Palpatine's grand scheme. To me that makes the battle so much more tragic because even thought they win, they actually lost because the Palpatine had allready triumpaned and Qui-Gon's death assures that anakin will fall to the dark side because Obi-wan was to reckless and cocky to train Anakin and that is why he failed. I have no problem if you disagree with me, I understand that everybody can't come to the same conclusion so if you don't think that EP 2 is a great movie and I can respect that, and as long as you respect my opinion of TPM we can get along just fine. Hopefully though you will enjoy EP 2 even more.

Darth23
Apr 20th, 2001, 02:20:38 AM
Oh God.

I'd hate to see a long post duel between this guy and Jon.

:D


I have the weekend free, I'll probably read the post then.

;)

------

Jedi Master Carr:

Paragraphs pleeze. Just a request.

:p

PhilR8
Apr 20th, 2001, 02:27:11 AM
I'm glad you toook the time to respond. I can see all your points are well founded, and I wish I could see past all of the horrible acting to appreciate the subtleties of the movie, but I seriously doubt Lucas had all of what you said in mind while writing the movie. I could be wrong of course, but I don't buy the reasoning behind the bumbling robots. Still, I wish I could have enjoyed it as much as you and others certainly did. I was disappointed.

Jedi Master Carr
Apr 20th, 2001, 03:08:46 AM
It would be impossible to say what Lucas had in mind for TPM, I guess it will at least look that way when all three films are done. This is of course just my feelings on it there are a few people on this forum that probably could explain some of it better than me, Doc Milo comes to mind. I think I even included some of his ideas in my post.

Still I hope you enjoy the next film. I think you will from what I hear it will be much darker and even less Jar Jar.

Darth I hope you are happy I added paragraps this time:p And please do you really want a flame war with Jonathan though I guess it would be interesting to read some of comments.

Kyp Durron
Apr 20th, 2001, 01:03:54 PM
Yet again, the problem here is that TPM is being compared with the whole Trilogy. That is not a fair comparison. TPM had one main purpose, to introduce and entertain. And I think it did a great job at that. It did the same as ANH did in 77...it was merely a technological phenomenon. Story is the same...intro to characters and the underdogs defeat the bully-ish bad guys. That's it. The Trilogy didn't become one of the greatest stories ever told until ESB and ROTJ came in. I think the people who don't appreciate TPM for what it truly is now will look at it differently after the next 2 episodes are finished.

QuiGonJ
Apr 20th, 2001, 04:51:30 PM
sigh, maybe I've been posting too much on the SW Galaxies board lately, but why do folks who post negatively routinely write as if their opinions are incontrovertable facts?

I'd try to argue with you, but Carr covered a lot of it well, and I'm not feeling like disproving negatives right now.

That said, I still think of ESB as the best of the films, but I like TPM just fine.

JonathanLB
Apr 20th, 2001, 07:06:36 PM
If I responded to everyone who voiced a criticism of TPM, I would be a very defensive and boring person. I respect your right to dislike the film or think what you will of it, and I can only hope that maybe one day you'll watch all six movies together and end up re-evaluating it. If that never happens, well, so be it. Not my loss, that's for sure.

I don't have the interest or time in debating things endlessly, I need new subjects to talk about, otherwise there is little point in writing much.

I loved TPM, you didn't. That's nice. :)

Darth23
Apr 20th, 2001, 09:09:39 PM
{quote]but why do folks who post negatively routinely write as if their opinions are incontrovertable facts?[/quote]

Damn, I've been complainign about that for over a year now.

I think phrases like 'there's no arguing that...' and 'everyone must admit that...' should be outlawed.

PhilR8
Apr 20th, 2001, 10:46:24 PM
I was talking with a friend about this very topic, and it is his opinion that when all six movies are able to be watched in succession that TPM will be rated much higher by those who don't like it now, and I had to agree with him. TPM was an introduction and did have a lot of fun parts. I had a lot of steam to blow off when i wrote that post, and looking back at it, it did seem a little too negative. That said, I still rate TPM as the worst of the four movies. Hopefully Episodes II and III will kick ass, making TPM a good chapter in a fantastic series rather than just a flawed movie....

Doc Milo
Apr 21st, 2001, 06:14:01 AM
Okay, I'm going to try to respond to this criticism. I'm fresh off responding to something similar in another forum, so my thoughts are clear in my head (mostly.)

One: As Kyp said, it is not fair to compare TPM to the entire OT. It isn't even fair to compare TPM to ANH (both introductory chapters in their respective trilogies.) The reason for the inherent unfairness in those comparisons is this: To compare TPM to the entire OT is to compare Chapter One of a story to an entire story. And to compare TPM to ANH is to compare two introductions with very different goals.

ANH was made to stand alone. Yes, it was left open for a sequel (many plot points go unanswered) but the structure of the film is self-contained. If no other film had ever been made, ANH can stand alone as a movie. TPM cannot. And TPM was not meant to. The reason for this is in what the two films did with the plots. Each film in this saga is essentially advancing three separate plots. An Epiosde Plot, a Trilogy Plot, and a Saga plot. In ANH, the Episode Plot dominates the film -- the Trilogy and Saga plots are relegated to the background, subplots to help characterization. The Episode Plot is so strong and dominating in ANH, that when it comes to an end, we hardly realize the dangling of the other two plots. TPM treated this very differently. In TPM each of the plots were given almost equal weight. At any point of the film, one was dominant; but each got its own time within the film. Sometimes the Saga plot was advanced, and the other two were in the background, other times the Episode Plot was advanced, and still other times the Trilogy plot was advanced. The Episode Plot came to an end, but because the other two plots were given such equal weight, we were left with a feeling of incompleteness (intentionally, I might add.) This is why ANH can stand alone, while TPM cannot. And this is why comparing even those two trilogy introductions is unfair. One other reason is that ANH only has to introduce us to, at most, a trilogy. TPM has to introduce us to both a trilogy and a Saga.

Two: The concern over the darkness or "maturity" of the film. Apparently this is something that a lot of people miss. TPM did not share the same tone of the OT. And this was done purposefully. TPM occurs at a different time than the OT. TPM occurs before the Dark Times. The galaxy is in a state of relative peace. Things are beautiful, colorful. These are motifs -- meatphors used within the film. Humor is another one. And this is where Jar Jar comes in -- and the Ewoks from RotJ. Humor is being used as a motif -- as a metaphor -- for the tone of the galaxy. In TPM, the galaxy is simpler, more innocent, lighter. The humor is innocent, slapstick. Primative. Jar Jar and the Gungans are what show us this humor. In the OT, the humor is cynical. Short little cutting one-liners. The humor portrays a tone, a dark tone, a cynical tone -- and the galaxy is at war, in the midst of the Dark Times of the Empire. Controlled by the Sith. In RotJ, however, we start seeing a return of the slapstick. The Ewoks. A few burp jokes, etc. This is sybollizing the ultimate end of RotJ -- the return of innocence. The victory of good over evil. The triumph of Light over Darkness. The end of the Dark Times.

Unfortunately, critics don't see this. They ignore the reasons for the humor, the colors. They believe it's film, and as such, it doesn't get so deep with the metaphors. But this is an untrue assumption.

Three: The complexity of the story: If anything, the story is more complex in TPM than in any of the original three Star Wars Films. TPM weaves three separate plots together, sharing time, and advancing each separately.

The mistake I see in this criticism is a failure to see that the real war was not between the Trade Federation and the Naboo, was not between the Gungans and the battle droids. The true war was in the Senate. The true victory was not good over evil, right over wrong. But in the manipulations of one man to create events in order to gain power. The war was not a physical one. The menace was not an overt one. The title of the film should be a give-away on this. The battles, in Amidala's words, are diversions to the true menace. The Phantom Menace. Look deeper than the battles on screen to find where the true war is being waged.

Four: The Acting. I'm sorry, but many people put the OT on a pedestal so high, that they refuse to see its faults as well. All movies have faults. Yes, even Star Wars. The acting in the TPM was no better and no worse than the acting in the OT. It was not great. It was not horrible.

But what I do think is that the characters are very different in TPM than they are in the OT. And the "TPM had bad acting" criticism is a reaction to the fact that the characters themselves (again by design) were not as quipy, not as cynical. They were their own characters -- The Jedi and the Queen were stoic; Anakin was a child. The age differences between all the characters alone means they would not have the same type of relationships as those in the OT had. But this was not a result of acting. The acting was fine. It was a result of a different tone and different characters.

On one last point: Could TPM have used a greater sense of danger? Absolutely, IMO. Instead of hearing about how they "haven't got much time." We could have been shown it more. But that might, also, have taken away from the tone that TPM was trying to set. Remember, TPM, as an introduction, is doing more than introducing us to the characters and the saga's storyline (the Rise, Fall, and Redemption of Anakin Skywalker.) It is also setting a tone, using that tone to advance the plot and chracterization. To get too dark, too quickly could also have been a mis-use of the introduction. We have to see the light before we can feel smothered by the darkness. We have to feel the peace before we can be horrified by the war. We have to laugh with the comedy before we cry with the tragedy.

Okay, so now I've gone really long. I know I've probably not addressed something. But that is all I'm going to post, for now....

PS: Just for reference: The three plots are:

Episode Plot: The Trade Conflict with Naboo
Trilogy Plot: The Rise of Palpatine To Power.
Saga Plot: The Rise, Fall, and Redemption of Anakin Skywalker.

I think it's evident in TPM where each is given weight, and how each is advanced.

aStanze
Apr 21st, 2001, 05:01:21 PM
I liked Episode I, if it entertains then George Lucas has done his job.:) You can't make them all happy.

-Stanze:)

Darth23
Apr 21st, 2001, 05:06:09 PM
Damn, that's what I was going to say.

:b


But seriously - Great post. I think I agree with almost everything you said.

I'd like to add somethign about the merchandising. Lucas didnt' start selling licensing Star Wars stuff with ESB, he started with the very first movie. Fox payed him very lile 70k for directign the forst film, (nothing for writing the screenplay, I believe). Lucas also got a profit points and kept the rights to all merchandising. With the money he made from merchandising, he was able to create lucasfilm, ILM, Skywalker Sound, and finance Empire Strikes Back himself, rather than having to depend on Fox or any other studio.


that's the main reason why I don't mind all the Star Wars merchandising - even though in general I hate most of that stuff.

JonathanLB
Apr 21st, 2001, 05:47:10 PM
No, Lucas actually was paid for the screenplay and then he was offered an additional $500,000 for directing his own screenplay. He forfeit that directors fee in exchange for sequel and merchandising rights, which probably cost Fox roughly $8-10 billion in lost revenue to date (and climbing by the hour, haha).

Albi Wan Yankovi
Apr 21st, 2001, 11:04:09 PM
community.theunderdogs.org/smiley/explode.gif

Darth23
Apr 22nd, 2001, 01:09:30 AM
I meant Great post Doc, no offense aStanze - your's was good too.


He forfeit that directors fee in exchange for sequel and merchandising rights,

I knew he didn't get paid for something.

I still rememeber a figure of 70 or 80 k though - from an articicle in Esquire about Lucas and Coppola, years ago.

JonathanLB
Apr 22nd, 2001, 01:22:09 AM
Hmm...well I have heard a lot of figures, so I'm not really sure. Some of the media just misreports, too, like I can't even remember how many times I've seen that The Phantom Menace made $461 million, lol, which is actually what ANH made, not TPM. How the hell could you be so stupid as to get that number wrong? It's so easy, you go to IMDB.com and you look it up, or you go to BoxOfficeGuru.com, or you just pay attention and ask someone who knows. For crying out loud, if you're part of the media you should have connections that allow you to at least get well-known facts right. Sheesh.

Anyway, I just don't have much faith in most media outlets now, so I'm not sure what the exact number is... All I know is he forfeit the directors fee for sequel and merchandising rights, but kept the screenplay fee. Fox didn't easily surrender the sequel rights, because it is not standard practice for studio's to give away any sequel rights, regardless of the movie. The merchandising rights, though, were seen as almost entirely worthless. What kind of an idiot would want to buy merchandise from a sci-fi movie with stupid named characters like Chewbacca? Oh wait, whoops...that merchandise has made over $6 billion. My bad! LOL. Yeah, Fox wasn't thinking too well back then. One guy at Variety wrote a list called "Top Ten Industry Gaffes," and it included his opinion of the top ten worst business decisions in Hollywood history. He said he loved collecting and researching these cases, because he found them so humorous. He put Fox's Star Wars decision as first and said it was easily the worst ever by any Hollywood studio, lol. What a dubious distinction.

To think, Lucas made probably more than 20,000 times what he would have if he had just taken the lousy director's fee. He risked it all and hit the jackpot.

Jedi Master Carr
Apr 22nd, 2001, 02:28:01 AM
I read some where that merchandizing of movies was not that big until Star Wars, so Fox never anticipated how much money the merchandise would make. Sure they made a huge blunder and Lucas made one of the best decisions ever it just shows how Star Wars created movie merchandizing as we know it today.

Back to our original train of thought, I want to thank Doc for writing such a great post, I think that is one of the best plot explanations of TPM. And I agree with you most people do not see these subtle things now and that is why when it is all done people will look back and see TPM and understand its true purpose in the saga.

JonathanLB
Apr 22nd, 2001, 03:07:39 AM
That is true, before Star Wars movie merchandising was almost non-existent. T-shirts, hats, and the like were pretty much all you'd see for even the biggest movies. Although the Jaws bubble gum became quite popular, I understand.

Mostly, though, the idea of making toys for movies and the very idea that movie merchandising could make more than the movie itself was absolutely unheard of...

foxdvd
Apr 23rd, 2001, 12:03:05 PM
What it comes down to in the end is how much did you enjoy the experience of TPM? Did you have fun watching it? To argue about film flaws for a movie like TPM is pointless for me, because my overall entertainment was extremely high, even after watching it many times. Am I going to say that the acting it surpasses a movie like “The Third Man”…. that the camera work exceeds a movie like “Deep Red”… or that the overall importance is higher then a movie like “M”….. or that the screenplay is better then a movie like “Rififi”? NO, and if I did, I would expect the laughter to be my only music.

What TPM has though is impact. I loved it because I had fun watching it. Can your experience for a movie like this be damped by expectations and outside critical pressure? YES! How many times have you seen a movie, not liked it, only to watch it again and find a movie you just loved? I feel that almost all the criticisms for TPM comes from high expectations, coupled with continues critical back-lash, which did not allow many to ever get comfortable with the movie, and untimely enjoy it. Unlike a movie, like say The Professional, that you might not like the first time but watch again and enjoy, with TPM when you watch it the first time with high expectations, come away not liking it then when you return to it, you go back with thousands of people saying it sucked which weighs you down again so that you might still not like it.

In the end, do not forget that TPM received critical reviews about on par with what ESB received, and far higher then ROTJ. I hope that over time, especially when people get to view these back to back on DVD, or what ever current format is out at the time, they will finally relax, and enjoy it.

Darth23
Apr 23rd, 2001, 02:42:30 PM
I thinkl that fact that the tone and story structure is really different from any of the OT films will always put some people off. I'm interested in seeing how TPM compares to Ep. 2.