One of our Own being sued by Lucasfilm, please help him.

[aStanze]

Please click on my second banner to learn how you can help a fellow Star Wars Fan in Trouble with George Lucas...it will only take a minute of your time.

Thanks,
-Anthony Arellano
"Stanze"

[Darth23]

I think one of the most important issues is that this guy is a 'small fry', and even if he crossed the line in his fan activities, he wasn't trying to profiteer and there's no reason to try to throw the book at him. Right now Lucasfim is refusing to try to reach an out of courst settlement with him. (Apparently he can't even afford a lawyer).

[Jedi Master Carr]

Was this the guy that was selling stuff on Ebay? I heard something about somebody selling collectables there but this could be somebody else.

[Darth23]

He makes replicas of movie props. Apparently he sold some of them and Lucasfilm decided they didn't like that.

[foxdvd]

it is hard to follow, and not having all the information I am not going to sign something like that...he may have it coming to him, or he may not..I sure am not going to choose with the little information I have...

[Darth23]

Well the real issue to me is that they're going to try to hit him with 100,000 bucks per violation - and the guy can't even afford a lawyer. Technically, every Star Wars fans site is guilty of copyright violations, but Lucasfilm recongnizes fan activity.

The petition isn't saying that the guy isn't guilty of anything, it's just requesting lienency (sp?) for him because he's basically just a fan, like us. It's the fans who give money and support to Lucasfilm, so the fans opinions should at least be considered in this matter.

[aStanze]

Well said Darth23,:) I'd be doing this for anyone of you. We're all friends here that look out for one another.:)

-Stanze:cool:

[DaBoSsNaStY]

it sad to hear this, I really hope the person did not try to sell his work with SW images on it.

case in point

Disney sued Albertson(a supermarket) for over 3 million, and won. Because a cake decortor made a cake with an image of micky mouse on it, and sold it with out buying the rights from Disney to sell it.

But if this person is just doing it out of fun, and not as a living than there is really no case at all here...

[foxdvd]

Thats right DBN...I have no idea what this guy was doing, but if it he was making SW stuff, and selling it for money, then I say sue him. Trying to say millions of us SW fans are doing this is false, because I have never tried to anything like that...

[foxdvd]

Technically, every Star Wars fans site is guilty of copyright violations, but Lucasfilm recongnizes fan activity

and to be more clear, I have never seen one SW fan site selling products with SW character or merchandise that was actually made by that person and not an authorized company. While many sites do link to sites that sell legal SW merchandise,(and in return make a commission of that sell) I have a feeling this guy crossed the line by doing the work himself...

[Force Master Hunter]

a) Lucas is within his rights to uphold his copyright and other IP.
Lets make that clear. Lucas is right, unfortunantly our poster is in the wrong.

b) But man, this sucks. Sure, sueing is one thing... but the size of the damages is incredible. A commerical entity I could understand. But just a person? Ow. That to me is wrong.

Nice petition BTW. Nicely worded and well expressed.

[Jedieb]

I'm not going to pretend that I know all the facts here but I think I read that the prop maker had a website and was openly selling his Stormtrooper armor. Lucasfilm asked him to stop and he took down his website. But he continued to sell his armor through newsgroups and other by other means. IF this is true then the guy has no one to blame but himself. Making armor for some friends or a collecting club is one thing. But if you turn it into a business then you're asking to be sued. And if the owner of the copyright gave you fair warning and you STILL continued to sell your wares then you've got no one to blame but yourself.

[Darth23]

Are there Fans sites that have copyrighted images, and get money from Ad banners?

Even if they aren't turning a profit, if they are taking in revenue, then theoretically they could be targets for the lawyers.

No one is saying that the guy hasn't made mistakes, (I don't know the details either) but I do think that it would be better for Star Wars fandom if they DIDN'T make an example of this guy.

[foxdvd]

Are there Fans sites that have copyrighted images, and get money from Ad banners?

as I said above, there are sites doing this yes...and if Lucas wanted to, he could have copyrighted images removed..but he does not..still even if he wanted to have them removed, it would not be such a big case, not that much money..

This guy might have been selling SW products he made himself..if that is the case, I would sue him as well...

[JonathanLB]

Actually, TheForce.net and other major Star Wars Websites do not make much money on banner ads because most of their banner ad revenue goes to hosting costs or they have a deal arranged, like TFN right now, that allows them to have unlimited space, more or less, but in exchange banner ad space is the property of the hosting company they are working with, in this case Snowball.com I believe now for TFN (they have went through a number of sites, DEN, etc, there are probably seven or eight total they've used).

Lucasfilm simply would not win a lawsuit against TheForce.net anyway, not one seeking damages. The site doesn't make a profit and it is clearly only for the entertainment value. If anything, the judge would certainly agree that, if LFL wanted, the images must all be removed and same with any copyrighted property, but no way would any judge make TFN pay for "damages" or any "fines" because they haven't done anything to damage Lucasfilm and it would be impossible to prove that. It'd also be impossible to prove that TFN has made actual money from the site because they have not; proceeds have went to charity.

This guy selling props is a total moron and he deserves to be sued. I appreciate Lucasfilm's fierce dedication to protecting their copyrights because it is their right and they're not "the evil bad guys," or "the evil, greedy, corporation." That is just a stupid liberal view of everyone who has money, and a greedy view at that. They have the full right to protect their property, intellectual or otherwise, in every way they can and this guy stepped over the boundaries of reasonable.

He would never have to pay $100,000 or whatever anyway. If he doesn't have it, the judge will simply tell him not to sell any more, to pay Lucasfilm all the money he has made from his ventures, or whatever. Worst case scenario he has to declare bankruptcy and go live on the streets, but he'd still never have to pay the full amount ;)

[Darth23]

:: Darth 23 watches as the POINT sails gracefully over people's head :;

I didn't see anyone in this thread say



a) Lucasfilm was being greedy
b) LFL shouldn't protect their copyright
c)

[/quote]
Worst case scenario he has to declare bankruptcy and go live on the streets, but he'd still never have to pay the full amount [/quote]

This is obviously the opinion of someone who's never been homeless. Joke or not, the guy is a Star Wars Fan, not some profiteer out to make a quick buck. What if he's made less that TheForce.net makes every week? Would that make it ok? Just because LFL has the RIGHT to sue him, doesn't mean that they should sue him. And it certainly doesn't mean that they shouldn't agree to some sort of out of courts settlement in the matter. LFL had the RIGHT to sue TF.net also, does that mean that they SHOULD? The law doesn't say that you cant' make a profit, the law says that you can make any money using copyrighted materials. Check with the non-profit day care center that Disney sued if your not sure about that.

As far as what he'd lose, I'm not sure what the rules in Canadian courts are. It's 100,000 PER VIOLATION, not 100,000. So if they take his house and is car and everything he has in the bank and 90% of his wages for the next 50 years, would that be cool?

As said before the issue is whether or not Star Wars fans will come to the aid of another fan to try to put pressure of LFL to not 'throw the book at him'.

[Jedieb]

LFL could very well sue TFN, Rebelscum, or Yakface if they wanted to. What those sites do with their ad revenue is irrelevant. LFL doesn't sue them because they recognize that these sites aren't as much about generate profit as they are fans sharing their common interests in Star Wars. Rebelscum may make some money from banner ads and dscounts with online retailers, but they they also help generate revenue for LFL and Hasbro by deciminating product information. They are also a valuable source of FREE market research for Hasbro. It would be foolish for Hasbro or LFL to put them out of business. But again, if LFL or Hasbro wanted to sue, they could. YOU CAN SUE ANYONE.

Whether or not a judge awards the plaintiff the full amount of damages may be a moot point as well. The court costs alone could well bankrupt this poor guy. But damn, he was WARNED wasn't he? Maybe I have my facts messed up. If I do, then I truly feel bad for the guy. But if he ignored LFL warning to stop and continued to run his BUSINESS then he has to face up to it. The law is the law. You don't get to make money off stormtrooper armor just because GL hasn't licensed anyone to do it and you feel the need to provide that service to fans yourself and make a profit while your at it. I don't mean to anger any of the prop guys. I can imagine they have strong feeling on this issue. They're probably more familiar with what's going on here than we are. But you just can't take someone else's ideas and go into business with them. Go ahead and make your own saber and put the recipe on the web. I bet Lucasfilm would love you for it. But if you start charging $19.95 for the plans then you've got a problem.

[Darth23]

Ok, there are probably better places to get more accurate info about the case (maybe even the Props Forum - apparently those guys know him) but I heard somewhere that he got a cease and desist order to take down his website (which he did). I'm not sure if he got a specific letter saying 'stop selling that stuff'.

Or maybe he didn't understand what the letter was saying. Like I said, I don't know all the information but I DO know that publicity and fan opinion could probably affect how badly this guy is treated by LFL's lawyers.

[foxdvd]

:: Darth 23 watches as the POINT sails gracefully over people's head :;


foxdvd watches as the POINT sails over people's head over and over...

[jjwr]

As an Admin and dealing with a lot of stuff in the props forum I know a few details about this(all the info is in the props forum).

This guy did receivea cease and desist letter from LFL but continued making the stuff, I think it was Storm Trooper armor. After that I don't know a ton of details.

Maybe LFL feels it needs to make a example of someone to keep everyone else in line, its unfortunate but this guy was warned and didn't heed it.

[Darth23]

Continued MAKING or selling? Making replicas isn't illegal, is it? it's liek writing a story ot makign a fan film with Vader or Chewie in it.

[EDIT: the reason I ask is because the 'fan' who send a message to Theforce.net seemed to say that LFL told him stop making the stuff also, and I was under the impression that what he did wrong was to SELL it. ]

[jjwr]

I'm not 100% on that, I thought they told him to stop selling(or making), either way he didn't do what they asked and now they're on his case.

[Jedieb]

Hey, just what points are sailing over people's heads? ;)

[JonathanLB]

You are allowed to do anything you want with regard to copyrighted materials if you don't make money on it, so yeah he could make the stuff regardless, just not sell it.

I can write Star Wars fiction books if I want too, but I just cannot profit from them, copyright them, or anything like that.

There are lots of things you're technically not supposed to do but are really not illegal because if you use them for your own personal reasons or whatever, there's nothing they can do about it.

For instance, I take Variety articles and put them in Word files for my own research purposes later. I am violating a copyright law, basically, by putting the text in those files, but how else am I supposed to conduct research? Plus, I pay them $60 per year and I don't distribute the articles so there is no harm anyway. They'll be deleted at some point once the book is completed anyway. Except the Star Wars articles. I have an ongoing archive of that stuff for my own personal use :)

Not like they can break down my door and stop me, either. lol.

This fan was a moron for invoking the wrath of LFL. I hope they crush him like the death star blew up Alderaan.

[Darth23]

Well that's on eless book sale.

:-P

The point is that LFL has all the power and the guy can't even afford a lawyer. The issue is NOT one of his Guilt or Innocence (the issue as far as his supporters go) The issue is whether of not LFL si goingot do what Jon thinks should be done to this guy.

[Doc Milo]

You are allowed to do anything you want with regard to copyrighted materials if you don't make money on it, so yeah he could make the stuff regardless, just not sell it.

I can write Star Wars fiction books if I want too, but I just cannot profit from them, copyright them, or anything like that.


Jon, you say two things here. In your first sentence you say "sell it." In your second you say "profit from" it. These are two different things. Just a point of clarification, copyright law has nothing to do with selling or profiting. You cannot distribute copyrighted material, regardless of whether or not you make any money at all. You can't sell, that is true. You definitely can't profit from it. But the law says you can't distribute it, whether you sell or profit from it is irrelevant.

If you distribute copyrighted material, you are in violation of copyright.

EDIT:

Here are the exclusive rights (as listed under Copyright Law) of the copyright holder:



§ 106. Exclusive rights in copyrighted works36
Subject to sections 107 through 121, the owner of copyright under this title has the exclusive rights to do and to authorize any of the following:

(1) to reproduce the copyrighted work in copies or phonorecords;

(2) to prepare derivative works based upon the copyrighted work;

(3) to distribute copies or phonorecords of the copyrighted work to the public by sale or other transfer of ownership, or by rental, lease, or lending;

(4) in the case of literary, musical, dramatic, and choreographic works, pantomimes, and motion pictures and other audiovisual works, to perform the copyrighted work publicly;

(5) in the case of literary, musical, dramatic, and choreographic works, pantomimes, and pictorial, graphic, or sculptural works, including the individual images of a motion picture or other audiovisual work, to display the copyrighted work publicly; and

(6) in the case of sound recordings, to perform the copyrighted work publicly by means of a digital audio transmission


As you can see, it doesn't matter if you sell or if you profit. Just making the prop, or writing fan fiction, or making a fan movie is, technically, a violation of copyright. Since, later on in the law, it defines an infringment of copyright as any action that violates the copyright holder's protected rights.

So Jon, you're wrong when you say you can do anything with copyrighted material as long as you don't sell it.

[Jedieb]

Doc is right, you don't have to sell or profit from copyrighted material in order to violate copyright laws. I'll give you an example of how I violate copyright laws virtually every week I'm at work; photocopying. Whenever I, and other teachers all over the country, make copies of a worksheet and use it in our classroom we are violating copyright laws. Do I make any money or profit by my copies? No, but I violate the law nevertheless. By making copies I've denied the textbook makers revenue. I'm illegally distributing their material. It's a crime I can live with because it would be fiscally impossible for my school to pay for everything passed out to our students. And we did pay the textbook company to buy the originals in the first place so they did get some revenue, but technically we're still violating the law.

That's one of the problems with copyright laws. They can be so easily violated that those that hold them cannot possible hold all the violators liable for their actions. And many times, as in the case of schools, the copyright holders actually hurt themselves by pursuing the copyright violations. They endanger future sales and they risk a public relations nightmare by prosecuting teachers who were only trying to help children. But I don't think anything like that has happened here. Yes, this fan can get crushed by LFL. But damn, he should have stopped when they first warned him.

You know what I think would make a great compromise here? Have someone from LFL settle out of court with this fan. Let LFL give one FINAL warning. Something along the line of' "We're going to let you off because we really do care about our fans. We let fans use copyrighted material all the time because we know how much enjoyment it brings them. But if you EVER sell your wares again for a profit we will crush you and set an example. We've tried to be fair but if you ever push us again we will do what we're ENTITLED to do under the law!" And then let the poor guy go back to living with his parents in peace. (I'm not kidding, I think this guy is still in his mid 20's or early 30's and living at home.)

[Darth Hez]

Ask these questions over at the prop forum guys. They have all the info, and a couple of the posters there are representing the guy in question as his legal help.

The petition here isn't to say he's innocent, its a petition asking for leniency, because if anything the Stormtrooper armour that was sold only benefitted Lucasfilm. All these points are made in much more detail over there, but be prepared for some spirited debate if you charge in there saying he deserves everything he gets.

[Jedi Master Carr]

I understand his position and hopefully somebody in LFL will realize it be best to settle but who knows for sure. For starters who is running the show Lucas, one of his people, or his Lawyers. If its the lawyers he is in a lot of trouble because they can be like sharks. That is my problem there are too many lawyers so they find ways to make money (lawsuits like this) I'm not sure if they are to blame but I am sure they are trying to talk Lucas in to go to court they want to get as much money as they possibly can. Sure Lucas might never see a dime of this man's money, but you can be certain these lawyers will get paid.

[Jedieb]

One of the prop guys has posted an FAQ on the whole lawsuit matter. It's pretty enlightening and may provide some new and relevant information that may just change your opinion on the whole matter. I know I feel much more sympathetic towards the guy now. We're talking about guys that spend an enormous amount of time building and sharing SW props, They share these props amongst themselves and often wear them to SW events, conventions, and even Children's hospitals. You may want to check it out:

pub2.ezboard.com/fswvstit...=846.topic (http://pub2.ezboard.com/fswvstitanicfrm21.showMessage?topicID=846.topic)

[aStanze]

GREAT NEWS ON THE SITUATION.:)

pub2.ezboard.com/fswvstitanicfrm21.showMessage?topicID=1074.topic (http://pub2.ezboard.com/fswvstitanicfrm21.showMessage?topicID=1074.topic)

Thank you for all your support everyone!:)
Special Thanks to SW Net Fan: JHyphen for his expert legal knowlege.

-Stanze:cool: