New rap album, has picture of Twin towers blowing up..look

[foxdvd]

Ok, this is just about the worst case of timing ever. This album was fixing to come out, and had already been sent out to be reviewed to all critics. Read this article about the cover, and after this post I am putting up a picture. Not only is the picture in bad taste, but the fact that the explosions on the Towers are almost the exact place they happened.


Article about the cd

us.news2.yimg.com/f/42/31..._dc_1.html (http://us.news2.yimg.com/f/42/31/7m/dailynews.yahoo.com/h/nm/20010912/re/attack_album_dc_1.html)

[foxdvd]

at first I thought it was a joke, until I read about it at sites like the above one...


http://www.crosstel.net/~foxdvd/coup.jpg

[ReaperFett]

the group are doing a new album cover now

[CMJ]

I know the studio pulled the SPIDERMAN ad involving the giant web between the two towers yesterday.

[Jedi Master Kyle]

I guess the producers are relieved that the shot is only for the trailer. Good call on their part to remove it. Actually, it was the only thing to do.

[ReaperFett]

theres a fair few films rescheduled now, and MIB2 has to reshoot the ending. Generally, I agree with all of this

[ReaperFett]

www.msnbc.com/news/628194_asp.htm (http://www.msnbc.com/news/628194_asp.htm)

This sickens me. This man is basically trying to lay the blame on a game?

[Jedi Master Carr]

Looks like more things are getting postponed
us.news2.yimg.com/f/42/31/7m/dailynews.yahoo.com/h/nm/20010912/re/attack_movies_dc_3.html (http://us.news2.yimg.com/f/42/31/7m/dailynews.yahoo.com/h/nm/20010912/re/attack_movies_dc_3.html)

I am not too surprised by Collateral Damage they will probably push it to next year. It will be interesting to see what they will do with that L&O miniseries, I liked the idea when they announced, and I still think it could work. I doubt Wolf would just ditch it because he like to go against the grain and loves to rip stories from the headlines and besided it won't come out till next May and that is enough time for the nation to heal I would think.

[JonathanLB]

Here is my opinion, but please tell me if you think I'm in error or if you disagree...

I really think that these movies and television shows should not be delayed at all, or not delayed for more than a few weeks. I think that in the case of spiderman, it makes sense because that is literally the focal point of that trailer, but to delay Collateral Damage "indefinitely" just seems to me to be giving into the terrorists. They WANT to disrupt our way of life as much as possible and ruin our reality. They want all of this, and I think the best thing to do is continue with our lives as much as possible. That is NOT TO SAY that we should forget about this and you know my feelings about retaliation, BUT I also think we should not let the terrorists get what they want.

I still want to see a movie like Collateral Damage and this event has ABSOLUTELY no effect on my desire to see that film. In fact, it makes me want to see it even more because it seems more realistic now. Same with The Seige. That movie was only "decent" or "fairly good" at best, but now it somehow has become a little bit more interesting anyway, perhaps appropriate.

Anyway, I just disagree with delaying these films, but perhaps that's just me.

[ReaperFett]

Harry at AICN said similar. I dont wholly agree, but I do think it raises points

[foxdvd]

is it just me, or is that woman in the above picture trying to look cool, but looks like a real dork instead?

[Jedieb]

I agree that we need to move on. These movies shouldn't be postponed forever. But this attack certainly has put a damper on the public's appetite to see Arnold or any other action hero take on a bunch of terroist and wipe them out in a special effects laden bloodfest. The Siege was a REALISTIC attmept to portray what could happen to NYC if it were being held underseige by terroist. By comparison, True Lies was nothing more a comic book. The irony is, that by most standards, True Lies was a better movie. It just worked better and was a much more enjoyable film experience. But it just doesn't seem appropriate right now does it?

The movie that I keep thinking about was the outstanding HBO movie based on the WTC bombing of 93 starring Peter Gallagher "Path to Paradise: The Untold Story of the World Trade Center Bombing." This was a solid movie that now sends chills down one's spine. The film traces the actions of the terroists before and after that attack. It's a chilling look at what may have trasnpired in New York and Florida before this devasting attack. If you have not seen this movie I recommend that you do. The ending of the movie is now downright prophetic.

[JonathanLB]

I wonder who is writing the screenplay or book about these newest events? lol. I'm sure someone is already on that. There always is someone looking ahead like that.

As for True Lies vs. The Siege, yah, one movie is a very well done action film, True Lies, and the other is just a fairly mediocre film, maybe a little above average, but not much.

I really want to see Arnold in another movie blowing away terrorists!!! Now more than ever! I think it's a mistake to hold its release, not only because it gives in to what the terrorists probably want, which is to change our society as much as possible (or destroy it of course), but also because studios lose a lot of money the longer they hold off on releasing a film. Often they'll have enough debt so that the interest on it will start piling up and the effects of delaying a film can be quite costly. I think it's a mistake. If they delayed it until November, ok, but if it's going to be like four to six months or something, geez, that's awful.

[Jedi Master Carr]

Something else to chew on Fox cancelled their showing of ID4 for Sunday. Now that is ludicricous. I know NY and Washington gets destroyed in the film but it was by aliens not terroists. A film like that is not remotely going to happen so why not show it? I think the networks just like to panic especially in the PC world they live in.

[ReaperFett]

and ID4 is about the world banding together to defeat a common foe


also, just read this www.aint-it-cool-news.com/display.cgi?id=10170 (http://www.aint-it-cool-news.com/display.cgi?id=10170)

I think that is just wrong. You can't just forget it was ever there.

[JonathanLB]

Oh my god, that is utter crap. I don't know why they have made that decision. It makes no sense at all. Ugg, that is going way overboard. I disagree with it entirely.

As for ID4, that's stupid and nonsensical too. I just think they are taking this thing to massive extremes in areas that don't need to be dealt with this way. If there was a movie specifically about the destruction of the WTC by terrorists, well... sucks to be that movie's production company, because it probably would be delayed permanently, not indefinitely. But as far as delaying all action-related films, SCREW that. I cannot understand the logic of it whatsoever.

Whatever, I don't feel like thinking about that right now because it just isn't as important as other things going on for me, but still, makes me mad.

[Jedieb]

This is also a question of whose feelings do you want to hurt. Do you want to upset those people who think removing the WTC from the movie is a mistake, or do you want to upset survivors and those people who lost family and friends at the WTC? For now, the wounds are too fresh not to put the feelings of survivors and victims' families above others. These images will return, but now is not the time.

I understand the logic behnd delaying action films. Some of these movies may even be delayed until the spring. Releasing an unrealistic action cartoon about terroists while they're still clearing away rubble is poor taste. Eventually, we'll get our escapist entertainment back, but right now isn't the time. People have to understand that business just can't return to normal. There's STILL a threat out there. There's still an investigation and suspects are being pursued. People have died and their murderers are being pursued. People should be thinking more about what they can do in their community to help others than about what movies need to be released. There's going to be time for entertainment, but do that after you've done something for your fellow citizens.

[Jedieb]

What I'm about to relate to you occurred minutes after I wrote that last post. An announcement came over the intercom about a student who'd brought his spare change into the school. He'd donated over $20 to the Red Cross to help with the relief efforts in NYC. The boy just happened to be in my class. No one asked him to do this, he did it all on his own. He inspired me to the point that when I walked him down to the office I showed him the check for $100 he'd inspired me to write. I had to walk him down to the office because he was in tears. His grandmother lives outside of Andrew's Air Force base and he's worried about her. His family CAN'T afford to call her and he's worried sick about her. I took him to speak to our guidance counselor.

Let me point something out here; THIS KID'S FAMILY CAN'T AFFORD A PHONE AND HE'S GIVING ALL OF HIS SAVINGS TO HELP OTHERS. He's not the only kid in my class whose parents can't afford to pay their phone bill. Yet this child still finds a way to help others. You want to feel good about yourself? Then instead of dropping some cash on Arnie's next movie spend it someplace else. At the very least try mathcing the money you'd spend on that movie ticket. There are plenty of places to give, the United Way, the Red Cross. If you look hard enough you'll find a worthwhile orgazination or cause to help.

[Darth McBain]

If you are looking to donate, see if you can find an organization which will match your donation - so effectively they will receive twice as much. My company is doing that for their employees, and I know of certain newspapers which are doing the same.

[JonathanLB]

I think now is EXACTLY the time for escapist entertainment...

I will be watching my own action movies about tons of people and especially enemies being blown away left and right. Thank god for DVD, because this tragedy doesn't change anything about how movies should be made. It has nothing to do with it. The two are as unrelated as me and Osami Bin Laden, lol.

[Jedi Master Carr]

Now that is going too far. First off in the comic book world an event like that probably wouldn't happen. Second, the film comes out next year and I think having the WTC in the movie could be seen as a tribute. Back to delaying movies, I understand your point Jedieb, and some of these films I understand but ID4 that is completely different. Much like reaper said the ending of the film is uplifting the world comes together and how is that bad? Now if it was Arlington Road I would agree (that had one of the most depressing and suprising endings I have ever seen). I just think the networks are too worried they would be precieved as being uncaring to the carnage that is the way many of these execs think today.

[Jedieb]

Thank god for DVD, because this tragedy doesn't change anything about how movies should be made. It has nothing to do with it. The two are as unrelated as me and Osami Bin Laden, lol.

If you think this tragedy isn't going to seep into just about every aspect of American life then you're kidding yourself Jon. Look at what WWII did to American culture and entertainment. If the war on terroism does become a protracted war, with even more blood being shed on American soil then you can bet the entertainment landscape will be effected. Just look at what started this post. That album cover is no longer acceptable. There will be other album covers, songs, scripts, and novels that are going to be effected because of the climate we're now in. If entertainment were immune then that album cover wouldn't be a big deal. Entertainment won't come to a grinding halt, but some people just aren't in the mood to see certain things now. An album cover with the WTC blown away is an example. Arnie smacking down terroists might be another.

If this does become a protracted conflict then it will and SHOULD have an impact on our daily lives. Men and women are going to be dying and people shouldn't be going to the mall and the movies as if NOTHING has happened. You don't stop dead in your tracks, but you do your own part. That may be mean enlisting, supporting your community, or a host of other things. But you just don't plop down in a comfy movie chair and expect nothing to change. We've become soft. We always expect things to get taken care of, without us having to do anything ourselves. If this drags on then that's going to have to change.

[JonathanLB]

I'll watch my movies just as nothing has happened. Why should I be different just because of this? I don't feel that is the right way to deal with it at all. This does not interrupt my daily activities or change anything in my life except that it pisses me off beyond belief and makes me feel very sorry for all of the people who died and who have lost people in this tragedy. Even so, I'm not going to stop enjoying myself because of a terrorist act. That's just not realistic.

I'll go to the mall and see my movies just as I did before and enjoy them just as much. If SOME people don't want to go see violent action movies, that is their issue and their choice, not mine, but I'll continue to see the same types of movies and enjoy them just as much. I love movies about war and chaos. They make the best films! World War II movies are often some of the best movies around (Enemy at the Gates, U-571, etc.) even though the whole war was of course very tragic.

I am sure this will affect the entertainment industry (and already has of course). For instance, there is going to be a movie of this whole incident sooner or later, just as there was for Pearl Harbor or any other tragic event. The movie should be very interesting too, especially if we go bomb the hell out of Afghanistan as it seems likely we'll do. Then the movie could be really good with tons of effects and explosions and even a depiction of the terror aboard the planes and stuff before they hit their targets. I think it could be quite a good movie actually, if it has a happy ending in real life (or as happy as can be expected when people have died obviously; how horrible).

I wonder if there is any footage (probably not) or voice clips from cockpits on other planes. For instance, did the pilot say, "This is your captain speaking. We have been directed by the FAA to reverse course and fly back to LAX for security reasons. I have just been informed that terrorists have hijacked four planes and two of them have struck the World Trade Center with a third hitting the Pentagon. I'll keep you informed as events unfold," or something like that. I assume he must have said something of course, on each plane it was probably different obviously.

"There's no news... like bad news!" -Tommorow Never Dies I believe.

[Jedieb]

I'll watch my movies just as nothing has happened. Why should I be different just because of this? I don't feel that is the right way to deal with it at all. This does not interrupt my daily activities or change anything in my life except that it pisses me off beyond belief and makes me feel very sorry for all of the people who died and who have lost people in this tragedy. Even so, I'm not going to stop enjoying myself because of a terrorist act. That's just not realistic.

Well just keep up the great work Jon. Everyone digging through rubble and stepping over body parts appreciates the effort you're making of not missing any movies whatsoever. All the kids across the country that are emptying their piggy banks appreciate the fact that you're not going to let this keep you from going to the movies this weekend. The great lengths you're going to to avoid making any change in your daily activities warms my heart.

Everything coming out of Washington indicates that the government is getting ready for a protracted military effort. One that will more than likely have a far more reaching impact on our country than Desert Storm did. It's good to know that you won't let it keep you down. I guess whenever we see clips of teenagers in uniform we know you'll be with them in spirit, because you sure as hell won't be anywhere near them.

[Jedi Master Kyle]

:o
I don't know how to react to that one. I can understand being defiant in the face of terrorism and trying not to let it run your life, but saying that your life will go on regardless is...well...I don't know what to call that. Maybe a movie theater will have to be threatened to make some people recognize what's happening.

[ReaperFett]

Eb, I think you went a little over the top there. He said he'd still watch movies. I still watch movies, doesn't mean this whole thing is in my head. My blood wouldn't be accepted because of where I am from, and I currently have no money (Should have some next week, and that will be going straght to this)

[Jedieb]

I'm not asking anyone to never go see a movie. I'm not asking anyone to never make an action movie again. I don't even think that canceling ID4 was necessary. What I'm saying is that things are now different. The NFL and MLB have done the right thing by taking a moment to allow the nation to mourn. Games will be played again. By Monday we'll probably be playing baseball and a week from Sunday we'll have football again. That's an ample amount of time to catch our breaths. But even when the games and the movies return, things will be different. Especially if these attacks continue. This enemy has shown itself to be dedicated enough to kill itself in order to make its point. How many suicide bombers have their been in Israel this past month? Who's to say those kinds of attacks won't begin here in the U.S.?

I'm not asking anyone to empty their bank account. But it doesn't take much effort to write a letter of thanks to the Red Cross. It does't take much time to pause and reflect and mourn an attack on your country. What bugs me is when someone yells at the top of their lungs that they want blood, yet wants that blood to be shed by someone else on their behalf while they sit in a nice comfy theater. I'll still enjoy my life, my wife, my kids, and my hobbies. But if my country is in a protracted conflict then I have to share that burden in some form. If all I can do is help out at home this time around then so be it. But if I'm not gonna do a damn thing except live in my own little safe world while others make sacrifices for me then I'd at least have the decency to spare everyone the hypocritical tough talk.

[Jedi Master Kyle]

I don't mean to speak for Jedieb here, but I think he was more irked at the fact that Jon made no mention of helping the efforts in NY, but will still pay for a movie. To each their own I guess, but what goes around comes around....

I guess we wrote responses at the same time Jedieb, but I *think* we're echoing sentiments here...

[Jedi Master Carr]

Well, I can understand where Jon is coming from and I agree with him to a point. I too have been trying to live my life as usual its the best thing I can do without going insane. Sure I've taken time to think about the tragedy, but I can't think and see it every minute or I would probably be so depressed I probably would go nuts, that is the kind of person I am. I would go to the movies too this weekend if there was anything decent on, both films look bad a Bad News Bear rip off and some teenie film that only has one redemable quality about it the young actress that is it. Still, this tragedy has impacted my life but I still would like to not hear about it all the time so I play a video game or watch a movie just to escape from it and I think that is what Jon was saying which is fine nobody can deal with something this big without something to espcape in order to stay sane.

As far as the US military is concerned all they better have planned is bombing because it looks like if they are even thinking invasions are allies will desert us faster than anybody thought. Russia has hinted it will not be involved in any ground war and most of the EU (France, Italy, Spain, Germany, etc) has said they want nothing part of it either. That would leave Britian and Israel left and it could get worse because there are signs that Pakistan is starting to make some noise. They have hinted that the US will not launch troops from their borders. I think they might be okay with us flying over for bombies but they do not want any invasion they would probably side with Afghanastan if that happened and began to give them arms like they did in the last Afghan War. Pakistan is also much more dangerous because they have Nukes. I am not sure how far they can launch them though, I read in the past they defintely can hit India I am not certain if they can fire them past that though. Still, I think our military needs to tread carefully here because we do not need to widen to another World war especially this time the stakes could mean the end of humanity.

[Jedi Master Kyle]

I've been pondering this question all week: How do you fight an enemy that doesn't value human life at all and is not afraid to die for it's beliefs (good or bad)? Going to war with these terrorists, while being the only thing to do in order to insure that they don't do it again, is something they clearly won't shy away from. These sickos will not lie down for anyone, so any action taken against them had damn well better be decisive and swift.

[Jedieb]

Again JMC, I'm not calling for anyone to become a monk. But this is more serious than Jon seems to think. This could end up being much more complicated and messy than Desert Storm. Pretty soon the Reserves are going to be called to Active Duty. The political situation and objectives of this war are much more difficult than those of DS. We could be at this for quite some time and the body count could be much higher than DS. This isn't going to go away. There were over 90 bomb threats in NYC today. My local mall was closed down today by a bomb threat. We may spend the next few months living our lives as if we were Israel.

I'm going to keep living my life. But when my country starts a prolonged military effort then that means war has been declared. I'm not going to be living my life like everything's normal when teenage men and women are being threatened, wounded, and killed on a daily basis. At the very least, their sacrifices deserve my attention. Others may pray, I'll devote my moment of silence and observance of the Pledge to think about those soldiers. If there's something that I can do here at home then I'll do it.

JMC, you probably would go "nuts" if all you ever did was think about this tragedy. But if we go to war then that's exactly what all of our soldiers will be doing. How do you think they'll feel when they not only have to "think" about the situation all day, but have to make it their life's mission? I won't be able to go this time, but damnit, I'm not going to have someone else fight a war for me without making some sacrifices myself.

[Jedi Master Carr]

I understand what you are saying Jedieb and that is one reason why I hope we don't go to war not my main reason though. I think this situation can be resolved without using groundtroops (which I think would be a huge mistake). I heard one commentator on the news today say that we need to use patience in order to beat Bin Laden. He went on to say the man will make mistakes and once he does we have him. I think he implied our intelligence will discover where he is hiding and then we can bomb away. Killing him though would completely end it we need to do what the EU is suggesting and arrest all the major cells like they are starting to do now in Europe. This won't be easy but it is the correct thing to do. I think we should bomb them now and attempt to inteminate Afghanastan into handing him over and then follow this man's advice. I know its gone a take a hit politically but it is the right thing to do. The question is will Bush do that. I know I am a little biased against him but I see him as an impatient man. Not even that Bush is a modern president and thinks too much like a polticians and he will look at the polls and think he needs to invade. If he does that he is make a horrible mistake one that will make him a very hated man if I am right.

[Jedieb]

You know what JMC, I hope you're right and I'm wrong. I hope this is resolved without ground troops. I hope it runs as smoothly as Desert Storm. I wish a few arrests and some cruise missiles are enough to end this. I just don't think it's going to be that easy.

[Jedi Master Carr]

I am not sure if my approach would work either but I don't think it would go completely smoothly even if it did. First there would have to be bombings involved so women and children will die over there, second we will leave ourselves open for mass suicides like in Israel, though I think we can prevent some of them a few still may slip through the cracks. On the other hand, if we invade they take a bigger risk to me, the best case scenerio I see is us going in and takes 6 months and we get him, I see us loosing at least as many troops as we did in Vietnam maybe a little more. The worst case scenerio the war escelates and brings in India, Pakistan and China and we have WWIII meaning end of world. Sure that is unlikely I think because we would have to do something pretty stupid to bring them in but it is still risk. What is most likely though is we go in wage a war that last 2-3 years we may or maynot find him but we lose any where from 100-300 thousand troops, Bush leaves office disgraced and things are worse off because these guys hate us even more and might even become more determined.

[JonathanLB]

It is NOT more serious than I think! It's more serious than what YOU think! You're the one, Jedieb, saying that we should avoid using ground troops, avoid using this, and that, etc.

As a US citizen, why can't I sit here in the comfort of my home and voice my opinions about our option and what should be done? That is my right and there is NOTHING hypocritical about it! I'm not going to go fight, no, of course not. I'm not in the army but there are many brave, courageous young men who are serving our nation and will be plenty sufficient to deal with this threat.

Furthermore, yes I would pay for a movie ticket at a time this. Why the hell not? I just ordered a bunch of DVD's recently too. Big deal. Everyone here pays too much money in taxes anyway and it sure isn't my job to be donating money anywhere. The government needs to provide the funding because they already have the money that everyone worked hard to earn. They stole it from us, now let them use it for something damnit! That's what they SHOULD be doing with it anyway, not creating a bunch of new moronic programs that those idiotic, spend-happy democrats want to create every other day.

Money from taxes should go almost solely to the military and self defense anyway, so finally it'll be used on something that people actually care about. Everyone wants to see the money spent to help the nation recover and to bring the terrorists to justice, but not everyone wants a bunch of stupid bums taking THEIR money and being PAID not to contribute anything. Not everyone wants their money going to old people who didn't plan for their own future. Not everyone thinks the government should be handing out money to anyone and everyone.

I, for one, think you make your own money or you starve and that's that. It's not a complicated issue whatsoever. It's a simple one. My money is my money, so don't steal it. Nobody who founded the US that we all love had this in mind. Nobody thought that we'd be taxed on our incomes, taxed on our purchases, and taxed on every other thing imaginable too. It's pitiful. The liberals have literaly ruined the nation, but that is a discussion for another time.

Now, I say we go to Iraq and Afghanistan and kick their asses if it's indeed true that Iraq supplied Bin Laden with what he needed and even ordered the attacks.

Oh, and for the record, we don't need any of the allies to do this either. Their help would be much appreciated but if they bail then so be it. We could take over all of Africa, South America, and the entire Middle East ourselves, so I don't think a few dinky little poorly armed countries are going to be a problem for our military might.

[ReaperFett]

Military might. That's what they said the Russians had. And what beat them? Some Afghan rebels, and the hills and mountains

[JonathanLB]

The Russians are incredibly weak. I mean, ugg, comparing them to the US is just sad.

[Jedi Master Carr]

Yeah they are weak now but then they had the largest military at the time and one wonders why they couldn't take Afghanstan. Sure the Afghan rebels had help from us, Pakistan and Saudia Arabia but I am sure the Russian underestimated how good the Afghans were as fighters. It also has to do with the terrain, it is very difficult to fight in because it is mostly mountains, and these people know where to hide so it would be a difficult ground war. Hopefully we will just bomb the hell out for now and then wait for Bin Laden to make a mistake and then bomb his base.

[JonathanLB]

That is true, but I don't think you go into the mountains like that and fight them. Let them have the mountains while you bomb the @#%$ out of everything else. See if they can survive and eat that long on the mountains, and if so, blow their asses away with bombs, haha.

[Doc Milo]

Jon, while I'm certainly no liberal, and have had many disagreements on the proper use of tax dollars with the left, and even the center (as I stand firmly on the right) I must take exception with most of what you wrote here.


I'm not going to go fight, no, of course not. I'm not in the army but there are many brave, courageous young men who are serving our nation and will be plenty sufficient to deal with this threat.

So certain are you? Are you 18 yet Jon? If so, did you not have to register with the Selective Service? Let us say we enter a prolonged conflict, Jon. Let us say we lose lots of troops, and we need to reinstate the draft to get the bodies we need to continue this war. Going to escape to Canada like a scared little hippie? Or will you attempt to buy your way out of service like our esteemed ex-president?



Furthermore, yes I would pay for a movie ticket at a time this. Why the hell not? I just ordered a bunch of DVD's recently too. Big deal. Everyone here pays too much money in taxes anyway and it sure isn't my job to be donating money anywhere. The government needs to provide the funding because they already have the money that everyone worked hard to earn. They stole it from us, now let them use it for something damnit! That's what they SHOULD be doing with it anyway, not creating a bunch of new moronic programs that those idiotic, spend-happy democrats want to create every other day.

"Are there no prisons?" asked Scrooge.

"Plenty of prisons," said the gentlemen...

"And the Union workhouses?" demanded Scrooge. "Are they still in operation?"

"They are. Still." returned the gentlemen, "I wish I could say they were not."

"The Treadmill and the Poor Law are in full vigor, then?" said Scrooge.

"Both very busy, sir."

"Oh! I was afraid, from what you said at first, that something had occurred to stop them in their useful course," said Scrooge. "I'm very glad to hear it."

"Under the impression that they scarcely furnish Christian cheer of mind or body to the multitude," returned the gentlemen, "a few of us are endeavoring to raise a fund to buy the poor some meat and drink, and means of warmth. We choose this time, because it is a time, of all others, when Want is keenly felt, and Abundance rejoices. What shall I put you down for?"

"Nothing!" Scrooge replied.

"You wish to be anonymous?"

"I wish to be left alone," said Scrooge. "Since you ask me what I wish, gentlemen, that is my answer. I don't make merry myself at Christmas, and I can't afford to make idle people merry. I help to support the establishments I have mentioned -- they cost enough; and those who are badly off must go there."

"Many can't go there; and many would rather die."

"If they would rather die," said Scrooge, "they had better do it, and decrease the surplus population. Besides -- excuse me -- I don't know that."

"But you might know it," observed the gentlemen.

"It's not my business,' Scrooge returned. "It's enough for a man to understand his own business, and not to interfere with other people's. Mine occupies me constantly. Good afternoon, gentlemen!"

Jon, you sound much like old Scrooge here. You think that just because you pay taxes, that exempts you from acts of charity? I'm sure we may agree on a lot of things about the proper use for our tax dollar, and whether or not we are over-taxed as a people. Be that as it may be, our paying taxes does not exclude us from simple human decency, it does not exempt us from charity. If a kid whose parents can't even afford a phone can scrape together every cent he has to donate to the efforts at the WTC and Washington, certainly you can afford something. To that boy, those cents could mean whether or not that family goes hungry for a day -- to you, 100 times that would be spare change. Certainly you don't have such a hard heart as to sit around and be oblivious to the suffering around you. What would this world be like if we all took your attitude? What would it be like if we all expected someone else to be the one who will help?

And just so you know I'm not a hypocrite -- I plan on making my own donation to the Red Cross tomorrow. I would have given blood, but I have a condition (hereditary) that forbids me from doing so. Have a heart Jon -- I promise, you won't turn into a liberal!


Now, I say we go to Iraq and Afghanistan and kick their asses if it's indeed true that Iraq supplied Bin Laden with what he needed and even ordered the attacks.

I'll go buy us some guns, Jon. When do you want to go?


Oh, and for the record, we don't need any of the allies to do this either. Their help would be much appreciated but if they bail then so be it. We could take over all of Africa, South America, and the entire Middle East ourselves, so I don't think a few dinky little poorly armed countries are going to be a problem for our military might.

I certainly hope this is your age talking. I'm pretty sure it is. When I was your age, I thought America was invincible too -- that we could accomplish these types of invasions with ease. But you know what, Jon, it's not so simple. Those are people you are sending over there to fight and die. And even those that survive, you are forcing them to become killers. That's what war does, Jon. You think it's easy to kill a man? You think those soldiers don't feel the weight of their actions everytime they pull the trigger? I'm sure it becomes instinct after a while, but just think about what you are asking of these people you send over there. You are asking them to put their lives, and their souls, on the line, while you sit home and watch movies -- and think you don't have to do your part because you pay taxes.

I'm with you, Jon. We need to take action. I've outlined the type of action I think we need to take. But, Jon, even those of us that stay at home must do our part to support those victims of war, and those fighting on the fronts to sustain our freedom.

Think about this, Jon. My brother was in the airforce during Desert Storm. He worked AWAC (I think that's the proper acronym.) He was never sent over to the middle east, but there was a time when he thought he was going to go there. He was given an "Estimated time of survival" should his division be sent over. It was under a few minutes. Think about that. People going over into war are given estimated times of survival. They survive longer, they are living on borrowed time.

Jedieb -- I have every respect for you and your service to our nation. You are correct. Those of us who don't fight must never take for granted those of you who do or did. We must always support you guys in anyway we can. I thank you for your past service, and I stand with you today in supporting any effort our military takes. In this time when our country needs us to do our part, I certainly hope we can all band together and give them our best efforts. And I pray that Jon sees this, and joins with us.

[foxdvd]

Military might. That's what they said the Russians had. And what beat them? Some Afghan rebels, and the hills and mountains

well I need to point out something that is driving me crazy. Every time we talk about Afghanistan and military action, people bring up Russia. There are major differences between their situation and ours.

First, Russia did conquer Afghanistan. They had to fight off for a long time rebel forces, with guerrilla war-far and the like after that conquest, and that is what wore them down. Even then, Russia would have had total control if not for America giving these rebels missiles, training, and other military weapons.

Second, If Russia really wanted the land, they could still have it today. The lost of life they were receiving, and more important, the lost of money was to great for them and they finally gave up. When leaving they destroyed the land, and this is one of the reasons the people there are in pure misery even today.

Third, Russia was loosing millions every day in attempts to keep up with America in the Cold war. The financial strain on them, combined with the tremendous loss of money to keep Afghanistan, and to a lesser extent loss of Soviet life, finally made them give up.


Now the situation we have here is totally different. First, the actual gorilla-warfare is not going to be as solid as it was with Russia, because you had a common enemy before in Russia. Rebel factions worked together to fight against the Russian military. Today there are multiple factions right now who would love to see the current leadership taken over. As we speak they bomb away at military bases. I fully believe they would not join forces like before, because at this point to much life has been loss on their side. Do not preach Muslim principles, and their total hate of America at this point. There are rumors that we have already been feeding these small rebel groups with weapons already.

Also, we have a set goal. We only want to wipe out the leadership and military. With Russia they wanted the actual land. We do not want this, and as you might expect, one is MUCH harder then the other. While Russia moved in and conquered, by staying there, the people took the opportunity to reform, and attack. Money and weapons slipped in and they kept fighting for their “Country”. With our situation, many will fully believe America and other countries are going to move out after this.

The forces will not receive the same backing as the older rebels did when Russia was there. No military force of ANY power, other then Iraq, would dare support them with China to the east, and Russia to the North supporting Nato action. Iraq is not in the position to do anything of significance at this time, and if the Palestinians stop their military support (the only thing keeping current leaders of Afghanistan in control at this time) you will find their military surplus dwindle quit fast.

This above post is in no way trying to say it will be easy, or that there will be no life loss. I just feel it is unfair to compare this situation to something that is totally different. I hope my post can help you see that. I was drunk when writing this if it does not make any sense.

[JonathanLB]

Yeah, Fox is absolutely right.

As for the post before it, I don't think America is invincible and don't give me that crap about how I'm 18 so I couldn't know what I'm talking about. I'm an adult and just as intelligent in every way as you are. We each know things that the other does not, of course, but don't treat me like that.

America IS powerful enough to conquer a number of these nations without hardly even sneezing. We could have taken and controlled Iraq and all of its land with little loss of life. We already did take out the entire military force losing less than 500 people on our own side and that was the THIRD LARGEST military in the world. Now, if we went after China, umm... I think the whole world would be screwed up and they are a very worthy adversary, but I don't think even with the recent incident with them that there is any significant tension. I personally feel no ill will towards the Chinese and I don't think it was a big deal, they just handled the situation poorly and were being stubborn, but ah well.

If it came to it and they needed additional ground troops to fight for America, then I don't think they'd be taking people like me who are attending college and whatnot, they would try to take as many other people as possible. The US isn't stupid and if you didn't already know that college students are not likely to be drafted, then you're the one who needs to start reading. The only reason my dad didn't serve in Vietnam was because he was in college taking enough credits, but one time he dropped below 12 units and they drafted him immediately, so he explained to them that he had been accepted to dental school already and was only taking less credits because he was waiting to enter and they let him off without any incident.

If I was asked to fight in a war like Vietnam, I would give the government a big middle finger and find any way to get out of the war or just flee to Canada because I am not a sheep nor someone else's property. I get to decide whether a war is worth fighting, NOT some omnipotent ruler.

In this case, though, our country was attacked and you are damn right if I was called on to fight I would go and do my part. This country is worth defending. Nothing could possibly be more important than that and this is a serious situation, not like Vietnam which was a joke and everyone knew it, a joke that cost tens of thousands of lives for no reason. It's just very frustrating and sad, what a waste of life. This will not be a waste of life no matter how many people die because we are defending our freedom. We are defending democracy and the United States.

I would never willingly "die" for my country, but I would take the risk of dying. It is the same of anything. If one of my best friends was about to be shot and I was told instantly by some hidden voice that there was a chance I'd live over the bullet, then I'd jump in front of them and take it in hopes that I'd survive, but if I was told it meant certain death, nah. No thanks, my life is more valuable than any other from my perspective, so of course self-preservation is going to protect me. I mean, it should with anyone else unless your mind has somehow managed to override an instinct that shouldn't be erased. Either that or you just aren't happy with life and don't care, in which case... whatever.

Of course a million people will disagree with me that they would die for their wife or whatever etc. blah blah blah, but that's obviously a different viewpoint. Anyone who would do that probably believes in an afterlife while I certainly don't, so if you die here, you're finished. That's it. So nobody else is worth dying for, although I think other people are worth *risking* it because at least it's not a definite thing.

The same thing goes with war. If I think a war is worth it, then yeah I would take the risk if I was called to serve my country (how could a country survive without protectors?), but if the government is throwing troops at nonsense, then no, screw that. I'm not that patriotic and I'm not an idiot. Even as much as I love my country, it is not nearly as important as my life. That seems so obvious to me; it should be equally obvious to anyone else, but I suppose if your viewpoint is totally different then maybe not.

[Doc Milo]

As for the post before it, I don't think America is invincible and don't give me that crap about how I'm 18 so I couldn't know what I'm talking about. I'm an adult and just as intelligent in every way as you are. We each know things that the other does not, of course, but don't treat me like that.

I didn't mean to make it sound like "you're 18 so you don't know what you're talking about." If it came out that way, I apologize. Your previous posts, however, make it sound like "This is going to be so easy, a cakewalk." When it is not.


America IS powerful enough to conquer a number of these nations without hardly even sneezing. We could have taken and controlled Iraq and all of its land with little loss of life. We already did take out the entire military force losing less than 500 people on our own side and that was the THIRD LARGEST military in the world.

America's military is not quite as the same strength as it was back in 1991, Jon. Since that time, we've down-sized quite a bit.


If it came to it and they needed additional ground troops to fight for America, then I don't think they'd be taking people like me who are attending college and whatnot, they would try to take as many other people as possible. The US isn't stupid and if you didn't already know that college students are not likely to be drafted, then you're the one who needs to start reading.

I did already know about the exemption for college students. I also know that, if needed, those exemptions can change. You seem to not be grasping this. We are not going to war against a country, where we bomb their military interests and over-throw their leadership and we're done. This is a different battlefield. We are going to be punishing countries that harbor terrorists, but the mission will not be complete until we wipe out the terrorists. This is a much harder task. We have to search for them, find them, and wipe them out. The difficult nature of that task is that they are everywhere. They are in Afghanistan. They are in Libya. They are in Iraq, Iran, Saudi Arabia. They are in Israel. They are in England. They are in the United States of America. The battlefield is not one you are going to be able to safely watch from you television screen cheering on American troops and mourning the loss of American life. The battlefield may just come to you, Jon. Your college. Your movie theater. Your mall. The parking lot where you park your car. If we are serious about wiping out the terrorists that did this, and protecting ourselves from further similar attack (thus meaning taking out all terrorists) then that is the reality we face. If we are more interested in placating the American people with symbolism over substance then we can bomb Afghanistan and claim victory, like Clinton did when he hit the aspirin factory. But that will not end this war. If we do something as meaningless as that, then this war will continue, and more American citizens will die in similar type attacks as we've seen on Tuesday, September 11.

So go ahead and think all you want that the rules won't change from any other war we've had. I'm telling you that the rules have already changed.


If I was asked to fight in a war like Vietnam, I would give the government a big middle finger and find any way to get out of the war or just flee to Canada because I am not a sheep nor someone else's property. I get to decide whether a war is worth fighting, NOT some omnipotent ruler.

So you're saying that all those people who served in Vietnam were sheep who couldn't think for themselves? That the true heroes were those who avoided the war? Really nice, Jon. From your perspective in history, I'm sure you believe that Vietnam was not worth fighting. Many people at the time believed stopping the spread of Communism was a worthy goal. I still believe that goal to be worthy. There are many things that happened in Vietnam that were plain wrong, and no way to run a war, but the goal -- I can't criticize the goal.


I would never willingly "die" for my country, but I would take the risk of dying. It is the same of anything. If one of my best friends was about to be shot and I was told instantly by some hidden voice that there was a chance I'd live over the bullet, then I'd jump in front of them and take it in hopes that I'd survive, but if I was told it meant certain death, nah. No thanks, my life is more valuable than any other from my perspective, so of course self-preservation is going to protect me. I mean, it should with anyone else unless your mind has somehow managed to override an instinct that shouldn't be erased. Either that or you just aren't happy with life and don't care, in which case... whatever.

I'm glad, then that you were not around during Revolutionary times, for I have a feeling you would never sign a document that (a) Believes in Divine providence and (b) Bequired you to pledge your life, your fortune, and your sacred honor.

Some people are actually not as selfish, Jon. "There is no greater love than to give up your life for a friend." Of course, there's this:
Anyone who would do that probably believes in an afterlife while I certainly don't, so if you die here, you're finished. So why should I even quote Christ's word's to you. I don't want to get into your faith or lack thereof, but I've learned that people who have no belief in anything other than this life are selfish creatures who are only out for one thing, themselves. And for that, I feel very sad for you.


So nobody else is worth dying for, although I think other people are worth *risking* it because at least it's not a definite thing.

Unfortunately, Jon, since you'll never know if death is definite at that time or not, you will never act to save another human being's life. And what makes one person worth "risking" your life for and one person not worth the risk? Whether or not you personally know that person, love or like that person?


The same thing goes with war. If I think a war is worth it, then yeah I would take the risk if I was called to serve my country (how could a country survive without protectors?), but if the government is throwing troops at nonsense, then no, screw that. I'm not that patriotic and I'm not an idiot. Even as much as I love my country, it is not nearly as important as my life.

Only if they called you, Jon. Which is pretty obvious. You're not even willing to help out at home! There are plenty of things you can do to help your country during war time without actually enlisting to fight -- or waiting for your country to call you into service. But you are unwilling to do even that! "You pay taxes, so they should have enough to do it without my help. I'd rather watch movies." That's what it sounds like you're saying.

Jedieb, nor I, are saying you shouldn't go about your life as normally as possible; we're not saying you should give up watching movies. What we are saying is that, during war time, there is plenty to do here, where you can volunteer your time, or merely write a check -- to give up one movie one day, and donate what you would have spent to a charity that can help the war effort, or the victims of that war. But you are unwilling to even do that much. Sounds like you're saying, "Let the poor folk that are in the military do the suffering and dying. My life is much too important to be bothered with that stuff." That's what I'm hearing from your posts. And that's the attitude that bothers me.

I hope I'm wrong and that isn't what you've been saying. If so, I look forward to you correcting my perception.

[Jedi Master Carr]

Okay I'm not getting into Jon's and Doc's debate I rather focus on what Fox said. Now I know I was one of the ones comparing this situation with Russia but just barely. I was mostly bringing it up to show how they underestimated their enemy which we could end up doing that is all I know it is different unless we want to take Afganastan over which I doubt we will. Still I have two problems with any invasions. First would be finding Bin Ladin. We have no clue where he is and finding him will not be easy and it could take months to find, during which time we could sustain a massive amount of casualities. My second problem is Pakistan. They concern me because they are Afghanastan's only strong ally and if they have not convinced me that they will go along with what ever we do. If they get angry at us they could become involved at the very least they could supply them with arms or perhaps which is unlikely at the moment join them in arms. If that happens we would be in a much larger engagement and it would make it even more difficult to find Bin Laden.

[Doc Milo]

By the way, I just wanted to mention that I just donated my tax rebate to the Red Cross relief efforts.

[foxdvd]

I am a little more sober now, so I can think clearly

Just to add a few points. The turmoil that has been going on in Afghanistan has been greatly bothering Russia and China long before these events in NYC. You have to remember that the Taliban was supported by American political backing up until about the time they started to protect Osama bin Laden. After their support of Terrorist, Americans completely cut off all possible connections. Up until the attack on America, the Taliban has been supported by Pakistan and Saudi Arabia with military support. Saudi Arabia is no loner giving full support, and old support by Iran has dwindled. It is important to note that many people from Iran were killed in Afghanistan, and while the Taliban denied any involvement, America has made sure to slip in evidence showing otherwise (including some believe to be satellite photos showing the incident, maybe even feeds)

So, as we speak the only support is Pakistan, a nuclear power. Now Russia and China would love to see the turmoil in this area crushed, especially Russia. If large scale military action was taken, I fully expect huge amounts of Russian support and maybe (this is a BIG MAYBE) Chinese forces. It is important to note that China could very easily push in about 1 million troops to help the sweeping for terrorist. China has a very large Muslim population in this area, and they do NOT want terrorist activities to continue at all.

At no point in history has there ever been such a strong desire to move into an area, by so many super powers. India of course, another Nuclear power, would rather stay out of this. One fear Russia and China has of course is if a war broke out between Pakistan and India, another reason we will see support from these countries, because turmoil is fear.

So if Pakistan, under fear of Russian and China involvement, and an attempt maybe to try and enter the favored nation status, does join us, or at least stays out, much of the fear of long term involvement will be lightened a bit, as you will see their supply of surface-to-air missiles, and anti-tank weapon literally dry up. Do not underestimate Americas ability to find a group with satellite technology.(even in forest) Remember, that Clinton had the opportunity to destroy Bin Laden when we had him located, but he turned down that in fear of Pakistan retaliating in some way. Further attempts to locate him have been minor, and if full scale attempts were made, it could be done.

Also, some analyst believed that Russia was very close to entering Afghanistan again, and only hesitated because of Pakistan. This might be the perfect excuse to do so, and bring some control back to the area. This truly is not America’s problem alone. There are so many other reasons to do what we are probably going to do.

[Jedieb]

It is NOT more serious than I think! It's more serious than what YOU think! You're the one, Jedieb, saying that we should avoid using ground troops, avoid using this, and that, etc.

I said we would avoid using ground troops in Pakistan. Ground troops in Afganistan are inevitable if we move against Bin Laden and the Taliban.



As a US citizen, why can't I sit here in the comfort of my home and voice my opinions about our option and what should be done? That is my right and there is NOTHING hypocritical about it! I'm not going to go fight, no, of course not. I'm not in the army but there are many brave, courageous young men who are serving our nation and will be plenty sufficient to deal with this threat.

You are a hypocrit. You sit back and wait for others to your dirty work for you. Exactly why is it that you think YOU get to sit back and do nothing while others fight and die? When I was your age not only was I also in my first semester at college but I had a summer of Basic Training under my belt and I was a member of the Reserves. I didn't have to sign up when I was 17. But I did it anyway because I felt I owed the country I was born in and that provided my parents a haven from communisim. I could list a thousand reasons why I signed my name on the dotted line. I'd love to hear your lame excuses for doing nothing.


Furthermore, yes I would pay for a movie ticket at a time this. Why the hell not? I just ordered a bunch of DVD's recently too. Big deal. Everyone here pays too much money in taxes anyway and it sure isn't my job to be donating money anywhere. The government needs to provide the funding because they already have the money that everyone worked hard to earn. They stole it from us, now let them use it for something damnit! That's what they SHOULD be doing with it anyway, not creating a bunch of new moronic programs that those idiotic, spend-happy democrats want to create every other day.
So now the government is full of thieves and Democrats are evil. That's so simplistic and idiotic I can't believe you honestly expect anyone here to take it seriously.


Not everyone wants their money going to old people who didn't plan for their own future. Not everyone thinks the government should be handing out money to anyone and everyone.
So you're questioning the very existance of Social Security. That's truly American. Only someone who's had money thrown at them their entire life could come up with such absurd and self centered statements. Here's a news flash, there are MILLIONS of Americans out there who've worked harder than you ever will in your entire life and they need Social Security. They've been contributing into the system their ENTIRE life and if should be there when they decide to retire.


I, for one, think you make your own money or you starve and that's that. It's not a complicated issue whatsoever. It's a simple one. My money is my money, so don't steal it. Nobody who founded the US that we all love had this in mind. Nobody thought that we'd be taxed on our incomes, taxed on our purchases, and taxed on every other thing imaginable too. It's pitiful. The liberals have literaly ruined the nation, but that is a discussion for another time.

That's a fine statement coming from someone who depends on Mommy and Daddy for everything. YOU haven't made a dime, but you're not in danger of starving. And please, don't bother bringing up anything you've made from your writing efforts. Start subtracting everything you owe your parents from what you've made and you'd be hundreds of thousands of dollars in debt. Here's a news flash about the taxes we pay today, they weren't all created by liberals. There were plenty of coservative Rebulicans pushing for defense spending and other expenditures that suited their constituencies. Liberals are evil, yeah, I'm sure women, blacks, and hispanics feel that way everytime they vote, open their own business, and enjoy the same basic civil liberties that were denied to them for over 100 years.


Now, I say we go to Iraq and Afghanistan and kick their asses if it's indeed true that Iraq supplied Bin Laden with what he needed and even ordered the attacks.

Please refrain from using the word "we' tough guy. It's insulting to the people who have done the fighting in the past and those who will have to do it in the future.


Oh, and for the record, we don't need any of the allies to do this either. Their help would be much appreciated but if they bail then so be it. We could take over all of Africa, South America, and the entire Middle East ourselves, so I don't think a few dinky little poorly armed countries are going to be a problem for our military might.

With brilliant statements like that you really do all the work for me. So the U.S. now has the power and might to take over three entire continents whose populations total in the billions. That's one of the most ignorant statements I've ever heard. You know, we are better off with you at home. Giving you an M-16 is an invitation for disaster.

[Jedi Master Kyle]

Here here! Well said Jedieb, if only there was an emoticon for total disbelief, huh?

[ReaperFett]

I think I was taken wrong. My point was, that you're basically saying the US could take nearly all the worlds countries. Well, Russia thought that. And they were beaten

[Jedieb]

Despite that we come from different sides of the political spectrum, I like to think I'm a centrist that deviates to the left more often than he does the right, I've always enjoyed political discussions we've had. You've made many excellent responses and I wanted to touch on a few of them.


Jedieb -- I have every respect for you and your service to our nation. You are correct. Those of us who don't fight must never take for granted those of you who do or did. We must always support you guys in anyway we can. I thank you for your past service, and I stand with you today in supporting any effort our military takes. In this time when our country needs us to do our part, I certainly hope we can all band together and give them our best efforts. And I pray that Jon sees this, and joins with us. ]

I wish I could be as forgiving and understanding as you are. You go right on trying to save him. I don't believe he'll listen to either of us, much less admit he's wrong about ANYTHING.


I'm glad, then that you were not around during Revolutionary times, for I have a feeling you would never sign a document that (a) Believes in Divine providence and (b) Bequired you to pledge your life, your fortune, and your sacred honor.

Some people are actually not as selfish, Jon. "There is no greater love than to give up your life for a friend." Of course, there's this:
Quote:
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Anyone who would do that probably believes in an afterlife while I certainly don't, so if you die here, you're finished.
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So why should I even quote Christ's word's to you. I don't want to get into your faith or lack thereof, but I've learned that people who have no belief in anything other than this life are selfish creatures who are only out for one thing, themselves. And for that, I feel very sad for you.


Quote:
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So nobody else is worth dying for, although I think other people are worth *risking* it because at least it's not a definite thing.
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Unfortunately, Jon, since you'll never know if death is definite at that time or not, you will never act to save another human being's life. And what makes one person worth "risking" your life for and one person not worth the risk? Whether or not you personally know that person, love or like that person?

I actually pity Jon. To think that he loves nothing as much as he loves himself. As a Christian, you have your faith to guide you in such life and death scenarios. I'm actually agnostic like Jon, but I don't need an afterlife to think about whether I'd sacrifice my life for my wife and children. The solace of an afterlife is irrelevant to me. My son and daughter's lives are more important than mine, it's that simple. Whether I blink out of existance doesn't matter. As for my wife, I would willingly give my life for her for a multitude of reasons. She's the purest soul I've ever known, an incredible mother to my children, and frankly the best person I've ever met. Again, I pity Jon because he obviously has no one to bring out those feelings in himself. That's a sad and lonely way to live.


Sounds like you're saying, "Let the poor folk that are in the military do the suffering and dying. My life is much too important to be bothered with that stuff." That's what I'm hearing from your posts. And that's the attitude that bothers me.

I hope I'm wrong and that isn't what you've been saying. If so, I look forward to you correcting my perception.

You're not wrong Doc, you're right on target. Everything he's written screams that that's Jon's view of America. I take comfort in knowing that a small minority of Americans feel the way he does. We're a better nation than that, we have to be. If not then everything I've done has been for nothing.

[Jedieb]

And let's not forget the British Empire ReaperFett. The sun never set on their empire, but it didn't last forever did it? How any American could blather on about becoming an Empire like no other without realizing that contradicts everything this country stands for is unbelievable. It does sound like the ramblings of a teenager who's been spoiled and pampered their entire life.

[Jedieb]

That's an excellent analysis of the situation fox. Could you ever envision a scenario in which China, Russia, and the U.S. would have so much common ground? I just wonder what the reaction of Pakistan's population will be to a large scale U.S. presense. Pakistan does not have the ground support in place that Saudi Arabia did in the Gulf War. Hell, most of what was in place was there courtesy of the U.S. The facillaties in Pakistan are nowhere near as good as Saudi.

I can tell you that all was not well with the Saudi people and the U.S. forces. We were instructed to have as little contact with the Saudi population as possible. Female soldiers had a particulary difficult time. The Saudi's even suspended certain social practices because of the presense of U.S. troops. The Saudis were quite glad to see most of those 500,000 troops go home. I can only imagine a U.S. presense in Pakistan would be even less well received. Will the current Pakistani government be able to stay in power when it's people clearly do not want U.S. or NATO forces in the area? Just how long will they put up with us? I remember traveling to work every morning and feeling unease at times because my unit was so vulnerable. Traveling in Pakistan with a hostile civilian population would be a nightmare.

[JonathanLB]

It seems that Pakistan is going to work with us or at least allow us to use their country to get to Afghanistan in some way. They have a difficult situation that I do not envy. Even though I think they have had terrorists in their borders who they protected before, I don't think they're likely to side with Afghanistan.

I think that with the U.S. requests of Pakistan we should also vow to send them troops if they need them to protect themselves from the Afghanistan government that has vowed to attack back if Pakistan allows our forces to use their country to get to them. I mean, we have to help them out in making the right decision if that's what it takes and tell them that we won't stand for Afghan aggression against their country.

I dunno, just a thought. They have a lousy position to be in right now I think. Either way, someone is pissed off at them.

[foxdvd]

If things are not handled properly, Pakistan could very easily be taken over by rebel forces, but not while there is a strong Nato presence. Still, you are going to have to watch VERY carefully for terrorist attacks. Women and children with bombs strapped to their bodies is not out of the question. Happened in Vietnam. If major rebellion were to happen though, it would be after troops pulled out, and we can not allow that. We can not allow rebel forces to take control of nuclear weapons, so if we do expect support from Pakistan, we need to be ready to support them for years to come. That is money and troops.


The real fear of course is if they turn on us down the road. It has happened again and again to America. We help a faction in a country, only to have that group turn on us, and use the money, weapons and training against us.


In the end, most of the life lost on our side is not going to be by actual combat, but by surprise attacks of the kind you can not be ready for. Just ask Russia.

[Jedi Master Carr]

I think we can count out Russia and China out of any military force. Russia has basically said they want no part and I don't blame them any long term conflict could cause a revolution concerding Putin is just barely holding on to power as it is. I doubt China would participate either mostly because they don't get along with us too much politically besides didn't they blame our policy for causing the attack? Now the question is which allies will make up this multinational force. I guess we can count on Britain, they haven't said they would join it but I expect they would. I doubt France would get in they have become pacifists over the last 20 years (I guess your nation getting destroyed in 2 world wars will do that too you, not counting the two times they were beat up in Vietnam and Algeria), Germany is 50/50 at this point according to their constituion they have to have an national election to decide if they will partake in a war (this was forced on them after WW II because it makes it difficult to get it passed), so in Nato that leaves Italy(who we don't want) Spain, Turkey, and Canada. The latter two might join in some way then there is the middle East I guess the Saudis and Egypt might help and while Israel would be willing to join in I think its best to keep them out. Now I guess we could bring in the UN but there would be a possiblity of a veto from either France or China so their might not be any point in going there. Regardless I still think its better to bomb and then use our intelligence to find Bin Laden, I don't like the idea of using ground troops because it will be difficult to locate him as a I said and their is a greater chance of US casualities.

[foxdvd]

Russia has basically said they want no part and I don't blame them any long term conflict could cause a revolution concerding Putin is just barely holding on to power as it is.

where did you read that? I do not think you could keep Russia out of this. It is right next to them..do you really think they are going to sit by and let everyone else fight it out? Esp. after they are ready to go in already becasue of the nature of the area?

[BizRodian]

I hope this whole thing is dealt with quickly. I hope security goes up in the US. I'm from Europe, so I'm used to that.. basically it just means the people in airport security wont be people making very little money who hate their job.

I hope there's no real war, that the US and allies continue to try and stop countries that support terroism, but also maybe take a look back and see that some people don't like the US because they feel they stick their noses in and think thier values apply to the whole world. I don't know if I agree with all of that, but when I hear someone telling me how I should live my life, I get annoyed. I'm sure other countries who get told by US citizens "Oh that system sucks, the one in the US is MUCH better. That's why we're the best country in the world" feel the same way. Something to consider.

But of course, that never excuses terrorist attacks. I think these people are terrible. Personally I think the World Trade Centers should be rebuilt in exactly the same way, with different supports and stuff inside maybe, but from the outside look the same. They could be called the World Trade Memorials, and each could have a floor being a measum on the old towers, and what happened. I would fear that something terrible would happen to them again, but it wouldn't stop me going in.

As for movies and TV shows being edited. No. This is not needed. I really hope that old movies set in New York will have the towers removed digital, that would be terrible. They were there, and now they're gone. It's sad. But you can't pretend it never happened. In future episodes of Friends, there will be no Twin Towers, but you can't edit every episode of Friends. That is not right.

I agree with Jon on the fact people should try to live as normally as possible, but I do think it's important to support your country as well, but of course, not blindly. I think it's far more appropreate then waving a flag around and saying that helps. Which some people tennd to do for some reason, to me it's just a peice of cloth, but hey, to each their own.

I do find it a little sad he thinks that no one is worth giving life up for, but I know that I would give up my life to save a lot of people. I have a family, and a fiance, and I would sacrafice myself for them, I'd take a bullet. I would risk my life for strangers too... if the risk wasn't too high... and no, I don't really belive in an afterlife. I just think if you can help someone it's a good thing to do.

But I am reminded of a story, when two ships in Halifax hit each other, one was carrying munitions, so many it would create one of the biggest explosions ever known to man. A man found out the ships were going to explode and whipe out half the city, including the rail way tracks, which would mean the train heading this way would be derailed and kill even more people. Instead of trying to get to as far away from the docks as possible, he sent a morse code signal to the train and stopped it on time. The ships then exploded and destroyed half the city. Thousands were killed, including him, but he saved the people on the train. I don't know if I could do that, but I'd like to think that I would, I think it would be worth dying for because I know it would stop many people from being so upset their familys were killed.

It's all a matter of opinion.

[JonathanLB]

It's nothing to consider at all and I totally disagree with that.

It is our duty as a responsible nation to police the world along with our allies. Nobody should SIT BY while other people are being killed. It's not acceptable. It's a horrible attitude to say, "You know, that's not our part of the world and it doesn't matter, so it's not worth wasting our efforts and our money on trying to prevent people from being killed." That's wrong! No Christian should say that especially because it's a very self-centered attitude.

I think it IS our job as a financially and militarily powerful nation to "play police" for the world, if you want to use that saying. I think there ARE instances where it is best for us to stay out of other countries' problems, but I also think in most cases where innocent people are being killed or two nations are fighting on and on senselessly that we should step in and provide assistance and try to stop injustice.

I think it is EVERYONE'S duty to stop injustice where they see it and not tolerate it. For instance, if someone is doing something unjust than you should stop them if you can or if the situation prohibits you from doing so, at least don't take part in it and leave, if they are your friends for instance. Furthermore, no individual should tolerate injustice of any kind. No kid should tolerate it in school, no adult should tolerate it in the workplace, and no country should tolerate it in the world.

To a great extent, it is our job as conscientious individuals to help those who are less fortunate and step in where and when we can to prevent the loss of innocent lives.

Make no mistakes about our current situation though, Biz, we are at war. This will be a prolonged effort and will require a great deal of patience from the US citizens, but we'll win. You don't just "forgive and forget" about something like this.

I'm tired of arguing about it, though. I already know I'm going to see what SHOULD be done because we have a president who is willing to take action, unlike some idiot like Clinton who never would have taken the proper actions. At this point, I'd simply like to watch and enjoy as we get our retribution and justice.

[Dutchy]

Great discussion, guys.

Very wise words from Jedieb and Doc Milo for instance, even though I don't share the latter's Christian believes.

Jedieb, you are a very noble person.

BTW, I wonder why Pakistan offered to force the Taliban to extradite Bin Laden. Shoudn't it be enough for them to say they support the US instead of taking an active part in it already? I mean, smoking Bin Laden out off his hole, so to speak, is something else than just showing formal support. At all means they're in a difficult situation though.

[Jedieb]

I believe Pakistan demanded that the Taliban turn over Bin Laden. They have stated that they will NOT take part in any multinational force. Their populace simply will not support that much involvement. I was very surprised that the government would go even that far. We do not want the government of Pakistan to be overthrown right now.

[Jedieb]

It never amazes me how some people can constantly contradict themselves and expect anyone to take them seriously.


It's a horrible attitude to say, "You know, that's not our part of the world and it doesn't matter, so it's not worth wasting our efforts and our money on trying to prevent people from being killed." That's wrong! No Christian should say that especially because it's a very self-centered attitude.


No thanks, my life is more valuable than any other from my perspective, so of course self-preservation is going to protect me. I mean, it should with anyone else unless your mind has somehow managed to override an instinct that shouldn't be erased. Either that or you just aren't happy with life and don't care, in which case... whatever.


To a great extent, it is our job as conscientious individuals to help those who are less fortunate and step in where and when we can to prevent the loss of innocent lives.


Not everyone wants their money going to old people who didn't plan for their own future. Not everyone thinks the government should be handing out money to anyone and everyone.

Isn't it amazing that these statements came from the SAME person?


At this point, I'd simply like to watch and enjoy as we get our retribution and justice.

That's the most honest statement Jon's made. You can bet that all he's EVER going to do is sit and watch while others act on his behalf. He has to stick his head in the sand and ignore certain statements, some of those statements being his own, because he's revealed himself to be unpatriotic and a hypocrite.

[Jedi Master Carr]

Russia, from their words, seems to be leaning against joining any multinational force and also Fox news and CNN both said yesterday that it appears for the moment that their leaning against it. They said they will support us but will not use their troops. As I said I don't blame them Russia is still in a mess of problems and what they don't want is to get in a war again and suffer mass amounts of casualities which is always a risk. Anything like that could start a revolution and I think its best we leave them out of it we don't want Russia controlled by the wrong people.

[Jedieb]

This is an excerpt from an article about European support of U.S action.


"The evil must be punished," Russian President Vladimir Putin said. "But we should not liken ourselves to bandits."

His defense chiefs have ruled out hosting NATO forces in former Soviet Central Asia or joining U.S. military action, although Moscow, with memories of its disastrous 1979-88 occupation of Afghanistan, says it will help with intelligence.

Russian intelligence could be a major assest. But would they be willing to share everything they've got? Whenever you share intelligence you compromise your intelligence gather capabilities. I don't see the Russians willingly giving us everything they have. Hopefully they can provide us with something meaningful, but they're not going to go out on a limb for us.

[JonathanLB]

Those are not contradictory whatsoever. I don't know what led you to that conclusion.

I said I would not give my life in the service of a country, but I would *risk* my life fighting for the right cause. There's a big difference. If someone said, "Would you die right now for your country?" I would say, "Hell no." I wouldn't die for anything or anyone. That's not worth it. I would fight for my country, though, no question, and if that involves the risk of being killed, then that's an acceptable risk in a situation such as this, but NOT in a situation like Vietnam. That was a waste of life. We couldn't accomplish what we wanted anyway.

My reference to the money we give to the government and how it is spent is in regards to LAZY people, not INNOCENT people who cannot help themselves. If you are 75 years old and you have no money because you didn't save it, then you better find a son, daughter, or relative to support you or you better find a charity to do so, because otherwise you're going to starve. That's how it should be. They shouldn't get money from ME here in California when they life in, say, Nevada and I have never met them in my life. That's NOT my problem, it's theirs for not saving the money. Same with welfare. HE WHO WORKS, EATS! People in a foreign country being oppressed by a powerful and corrupt dictator do not have the same options. They cannot simply make the situation better and they're not guilty of ANYTHING, they are innocent people who need the intervention of another force to aid their situation.

At least a person who had six kids and now cannot support them made the decision SIX TIMES to have kids she couldn't support. Whether or not they were intentional is definitely not the issue. That's why they have birth control. The kids cannot be made to suffer because of the parent, though, so they should be taken away from the mom and she should be forced to make it on her own and her right as a citizen to have more kids should be revoked. That right doesn't belong to someone who is bringing children into the world and who cannot even support them.

Jedieb, you make me sick sometimes. I have never harbored any ill-will towards you but you CONTINUE to act like a total moron and honestly make yourself look confrontational and ignorant at the same time. GROW UP!

[Jedi Master Kyle]

"They shouldn't get money from ME here in California when they life in, say, Nevada and I have never met them in my life. That's NOT my problem, it's theirs for not saving the money. Same with welfare. HE WHO WORKS, EATS!"

Sweet fancy Moses Jon, I really pray for your sake that you have a long and prosperous career as a writer or whatever and secure yourself a great retirement fund, because if not, I can't see anyone wanting to help someone with that attitude.


And if you want to get technical, this is a definition of the word "confrontational", which you used to describe Jedieb:
"Discord or a clash of opinions and ideas"
Going by that definition, we're all being confrontational here, but I don't see anyone acting like a total moron, least of all people Jedieb.

[Jedieb]

I would fight for my country, though, no question, and if that involves the risk of being killed, then that's an acceptable risk in a situation such as this, but NOT in a situation like Vietnam. That was a waste of life. We couldn't accomplish what we wanted anyway.

That's complete and utter garbage. There's not a single person here who believes you'd have the guts to defend anything but yourself. As for Vietnam, it's nice to see that you pick and choose when to stand up for your country. You say you're a conservative Republican? Well there were no more fervent supporters of the war in Vietnam than conservative Republicans. You would have supported that war against communism back in 65 like many other Republicans, and even some Democrats. Now with the benefit of hindsight you call it a wasted effort and label the men and women who fought and died there sheep. You're a joke.


My reference to the money we give to the government and how it is spent is in regards to LAZY people, not INNOCENT people who cannot help themselves. If you are 75 years old and you have no money because you didn't save it, then you better find a son, daughter, or relative to support you or you better find a charity to do so, because otherwise you're going to starve.
Grab a clue, that 75 year old you referred to has more than likely contributed to the Social Security system for over 50 years. They've EARNED their benefits. If you actually paid attention to the Republicans you adore, you'd see they promote and protect Social Security and Medicare programs as much any Democrat, especially with the massive amount of Baby Boomers headed towards retirement.


At least a person who had six kids and now cannot support them made the decision SIX TIMES to have kids she couldn't support. Whether or not they were intentional is definitely not the issue. That's why they have birth control. The kids cannot be made to suffer because of the parent, though, so they should be taken away from the mom and she should be forced to make it on her own and her right as a citizen to have more kids should be revoked. That right doesn't belong to someone who is bringing children into the world and who cannot even support them.

Let me get this straight, you, the Republican ultra conservative who believes government should stay out of the lives of its people are saying that the government has the right to take children away from their parents for no other reason than that they're poor?! Wouldn't that require a massive governmental agency funded by taxes? An agency that would require staff and facilaties to remove children from homes and then provide housing and education for them? Do you ever think any of this crap out before you type it out? It's really rather funny.


Jedieb, you make me sick sometimes. I have never harbored any ill-will towards you but you CONTINUE to act like a total moron and honestly make yourself look confrontational and ignorant at the same time. GROW UP!

This one's hilarious. Doc tells me he's got respect for me and basically sides with me, JMK cheers me on, Reaper takes shots at your the U.S. can rule the world view, and Dutchy calls me a noble person. Yet the spoiled, self centered, arrogant, elitist, cowardly sunshine patriot says I make him sick. I must be doing something right. As for being a moron and ignorant, well even I can can realize that taking on 3 continents might be just a bit too much for the U.S. Your "brilliant" mind must have taken a vacation during this thread because I see no evidence of it whatsoever. You've done more damge to yourself in this thread than I ever possibly could have. I keep thinking back to those "brilliant" comments about Vietnam and the sheep who fought there. Why don't you go over to your local VFW and share some of your insights with them. I doubt you'd have the guts to even look them in the eye, but you do have the guts to call on them to sacrifice their lives when it suits your needs. That's simply precious.

[Atreyu]

:( :( :( :( :( :( :( :( :(

I'm only 20 and I hope when I grow up I'm more like Jedieb.

That's all I'm going to say for now. Peace peace PEACE, please. :(

[Darth Turbogeek]

Damn it I have to say it.

WELL BLOODY SAID JEDIEB. I hope I can get to meet you when I come to the USA next year.

[Jedieb]

Thanks guys, I hope to meet many of you at Indy. First round is on me. Except for the Aussies, you guys drink like maniacs and I'm not made of money. And Buff, no one could possibly cover that bartab without a loan. ;)

[foxdvd]

I am surprises Russia would hesitate to committee forces, but I still feel they will be involved in that way soon. As for them not allowing us to use their land, I read this at cnn.com today.



Tajikistan has thousands of forces on the border between the two countries. Russian forces also are on the border and some have speculated that Tajikistan and Russia might allow the United States to launch operations from there.

Of course this is speculation, but I seriously doubt Russia is going to stay out of this. I also know I am not the only one thinking Russia is close to committing its military forces to the cause. If you read reports every day, Russia comes closer and closer to saying they are going to help. Older reports said they would only support military action if all the facts are in, and now they are say that they will give us intelligence, and maybe use their land.

Just yesterday this was what they were saying


Moscow has moved closer to supporting military retaliation for this week's attacks on the United States

today they say they do support....

Also surprising is Russia new attitude toward missile defense systems. If a war breaks out there (once again, I can not see them staying out of this, no mater what they are saying now) they are going to have to be afraid of missile attacks. That is why they are now talking about working with the US to dev. a new system.

[JonathanLB]

Ah f*ck off Jedieb, you're such a queer isn't not even funny. Don't continually insult me in every post. All you've done is flame me without making ONE good point about my posts. Burn in hell dickweed.

You can believe what you want about whether I'd defend my country or not, see if I care. I know the truth and don't care what you think.

Furthermore, I still think anyone who died in service of our country is a hero, but as I said, the whole Vietnam thing was a waste of life and everyone knows that now. It ended up accomplishing nothing and was very tragic. I wouldn't have fought in that war if it occurred today; I'd rather flee to Canada.

People should THINK before they act (and you seem to think I haven't done that in this thread, but whatever), so I would not simply support my country's EVERY decision as you would, which is why you also could be labeled a sheep. Everyone should think for themselves. If Lucas says something, just because he is Lucas, that doesn't make it right immediately. I have a great deal of respect for him but I don't agree with everything that ANYONE says, let alone the US government. As for your comment about republicans supporting it... HELLO?!?! EARTH TO JEDIEB?! ANYONE HOME?! I don't have to agree with the republicans EVERY time! Nobody could possibly agree on every single issue with a whole party like that unless they too are sheep.

I don't feel like further responding to this because YOU are not only a waste of time and life in general but a waste of MY time! Have a good day being the idiot you are.

[Darth Turbogeek]

God I wish I was a Admin again.

Your post is being reported to them for further action. Dont bother changing it, I have a copy apready

[JonathanLB]

oh no, I'm so scared. Turbogeek, you're honestly one of the most annoying people around. I wouldn't bother changing it anyway.

Plus, Jedieb has been flamming me this entire thread. Don't make me find examples, either, because that would take forever to collect them all. If you've not noticed, take a deep breath and a step back, then look at it objectively. Fox said the same thing to me yesterday and it's quite evident that Jedieb started flamming me immediately for my opinions and I didn't say anything.

Now, that's the last straw. You know what I think of you now Jedieb. I think you're a flamming homo and one day you'll get what's coming to you. Damn idiot.

[foxdvd]

Well you can agree (if anyone does) or disagree with what Jon has said, and his comments have been aggressive, but he did not attack anyone personally first, though there is no denying that he just exploded greater then anyone has in this thread. Still, everyone knows personal attacks on Jon results in that. You can say he deserved it or not, but we all saw this coming. I would hope Jedieb himself would at least admit that he flamed Jon first…even if it was provoked by Jon’s aggression in his post. I might be wrong though, I would need to read all the post again.

[buffjedi]

You know I have been reading JEDIEB(S) and JON's Posts and I have to say ,Other than grammer and proper spelling ,and readable,the post's look likemine :(

I have a couple of things to say (and I mean NONE of this as slams,or really aimed at anyone persee(spell check) ;) except for the Social security one.


I have never felt like serving my country in war.Am I wrong for that ?I dunno BUT it's not been for the lack of love for my country (although I have been more Patriotic as of late) it's the feeling of being told by someone (sgt,col etc...) PVT.BUFF go run blockade for me .....well Sgt there's like 100 enemy soliders ready to shot me....well do it any way Pvt Buff. I know it's not like that but I hope you get my drift. Other words IF I had my say on how to fight I'd be there.(hope some of that maked sense :) )



Now on the SOCIAL SECURITY..

Jon I dont know if your family is Rich OR you have high hopes for your future.(I do hope you do succeed and make TONS of money, I truely do) But some people are not as fortunate as others. I myself Have been Very well off and very Poor.I choose well off BUT sometimes life throws you for a loop.I know people who work there ARS"S off for 7 bucks an hour and just cant make it.
Some may say WELL thats not my fault They should have went to college and got themselves an Education...Now thats all fine and good BUT some Parents cant afford to pay for a college Education for there kids.It's easy for people who have everyting to say things like that (NOT IMPLYING)



SIX KIDS THING

I have to say IF your Poor and cant afford to feed that many kids , Condoms are dirt cheap.I dont mean to sound like an ARS hole on that one BUT I know to many people ,who are broke and keep popping the kids out.But OF course it's NOT my life or my business persee


I wouldalso like to say I personally know Several people who are looked at as being wealthy,big house , nice cars etc.. But the sad truth is YES they are making Good money BUT they are living WELL above there means (I'm guilty and am paying dearly RIGHT now for it) we get caught up in What we have ,Vacations where we eat...We need to get over it!! Money doesn't make anyone better than the next person It only means your HOUSE,AND CAR PAYMENT is bigger.
Also Money does'nt buyClass..some of the biggest WHITE TRASH I know are worth Millions (I'm not exagerating)

Ok on the GROW UP

We all need to grow up in some asspect off our life's.If you can sit there and say you DON"T than you are lying to yourself.


On the after life , I'm going to say this..

I'm a christian (not a great one ) but a christian . I have many things in my life I have to work on and many area's I need to GROW UP ON.Christian's are not perfect and if one claims to be or act like they are there full of it.

OK with that said I can get on with it.


There Is a GOD.there is a HEAVEN and there is a HELL. Other words IF you do not beleave in the after life THAT JESUS CHRIST TOLD MAN ABOUT YOU DO NOT BELEAVE ON HIM OR HI FATHER (not yelling just wanted that to stand out)I'm feeling compled to writ this (SORRY if it's out of line OR I'm preaching to the Choir...But If anyone DOUBTS there is a GOD ,GO out side LOOK around and see the wonders before you,DONT just look,SEE. GOD made all of it for you and me for those before us and after us.How could any of The Beuty of the world be an accident (a big boom)

Always rememberalthough YOU may not beleave in him,HE does beleave in you.If you have Kids,think of the love you have for them.Now multiply that by ten thousand and you still Hav'nt reached Gods love for you.

Eb(s) Jon cant we all just get along :) hey dont make me start singing (WE ARE THE WORLD):) :) :) :) :) :) you two are above this fighting (leave the name calling and immature posts to me ;)

Buffjedi2/wookieboy

[Doc Milo]

At least a person who had six kids and now cannot support them made the decision SIX TIMES to have kids she couldn't support. Whether or not they were intentional is definitely not the issue. That's why they have birth control. The kids cannot be made to suffer because of the parent, though, so they should be taken away from the mom and she should be forced to make it on her own and her right as a citizen to have more kids should be revoked. That right doesn't belong to someone who is bringing children into the world and who cannot even support them.

Jon, who made you God? Because, according to the Declaration of Independence and the Constitution, the two documents on which this nation has been built, our rights are God-given, they are not given to us by our government. Since they are God-given, no government has the right to take them away. You do believe in the Constitution and the Declaration of Independence, don't you Jon? Perhaps you should read them someday and understand what they are saying.

Any power not given to the government directly by the Constitution belongs to the people of the country. Read the Constitution. Where does it say that our government has the right to revoke a person's right to have children? The government did not give a person the right to have children. Thus the government cannot revoke that right.

Here's the truth Jon. Rights exist. They are given to us by God (our Creator.) The Constitution is not a document that "gives the citizens their rights." It is a document where the citizens came together and said, "from our rights, we are giving the government these certain and specific powers."

Proof? The documents themselves. From the Declaration of Independence:

"We hold these truths to be self-evident: that all men are created equal, that they are endowed by their Creator with certain unalienable rights, that among these are life, liberty, and the pursuit of happiness.

"That, to secure these rights, governments are instituted among men, deriving their just powers from the consent of the governed."

And from the Constitution:

"We the people of the United States, in order to form a more perfect union, establish Justice, insure domestic tranquilitiy, provide for the common defense, promote the general Welfare, and secure the Blessings of Liberty to ourselves and our Posterity, do ordain and establish this Constitution for the United States of America."

And from the Bill of Rights, Amendment number 10 to the Constitution:

"The powers not delegated to the United States by the Constitution, nor prohibited by it to the States, are reserved to the States respectively, or to the people."

You understand that Jon? This is saying that the rights belong to the people. The people get together and give certain powers from those rights to the states in which they live. They also get together and give certain powers from among those rights to the Federal government. If the power is not given to the Federal government by the people, then that power does not belong to the Federal government. The government can't use that power. It either belongs to the state, or to the people, depending on the individual state's Constitution.

So, what you are talking about -- a government revoking rights -- that is not America. The American government DOES NOT HAVE THE POWER TO REVOKE ANYONE'S RIGHTS WITHOUT DUE PROCESS OF LAW. What crime are you accusing this mother of, that you wish to revoke her right to procreate?

[BizRodian]

It is our duty as a responsible nation to police the world along with our allies. Nobody should SIT BY while other people are being killed. It's not acceptable. It's a horrible attitude to say, "You know, that's not our part of the world and it doesn't matter, so it's not worth wasting our efforts and our money on trying to prevent people from being killed." That's wrong! No Christian should say that especially because it's a very self-centered attitude.

I think it IS our job as a financially and militarily powerful nation to "play police" for the world, if you want to use that saying. I think there ARE instances where it is best for us to stay out of other countries' problems, but I also think in most cases where innocent people are being killed or two nations are fighting on and on senselessly that we should step in and provide assistance and try to stop injustice.

I agree with you there Jon. :)

What I ment was that sometimes, on TV, I see politions say something how the US is so much better or something. Sometimes they act like their way is the ONLY right way. You also have to remember a lot of the people going over to other countries might be from relgious groups, and so a lot of ideas come from there. I know relgious groups give tons of food and help, but my neighbor recently visited africa so build a starving village a church and bibles. I asked if they gave food, he said no, that they should learn to be like us in the west and to get jobs, that it's their fault they don't follow god, and so they were trying to help that. This is a good example of what I meant.... sometimes people in the west will think thier way is the only right way, and it should be used by everyone else. I've seen stories in the paper about some US senator critizing Canada's health care plan, or some other things we do. This is garabge, it's not their country, and I do tire of hearing about what we SHOULD do. Sometimes, Americans can be a bit arrogant that way because so their extream patriotism.

As for Jon not supporting Vietnam, yet being a Republican, well, I think that only shows that he can think for himself, and knows republicans can make mistakes too.

One of the few things I liked hearing him say in this thread.

But I'm a tolerant person, and I wouldn't critize Jon for what he thinks, even if I disagree with a ton of it.

[JonathanLB]

I would agree to get along if Jedieb would stop flamming me but only then.

Otherwise, I guess we cannot. If I met Jedieb in real life I bet we would have good conversations and I think he is probably a reasonable person, but online he seems to think he can just insult people over and over again and that somehow is not meaningful. You wouldn't say that to my face just as I wouldn't have said the last few posts to YOUR face.

I think this whole issue should be dropped and closed because it has nothing to do with Star Wars and it is talked out, but whatever.

Buff, some good points, but I do not believe in God and although you can say that doesn't mean he doesn't exist, well, to me it does mean that. Of course, you are free to feel otherwise and more power to you.

[Doc Milo]

Jon to Jedieb: "Burn in hell ..."

Some threat coming from an atheist. Remember, Jon, he can't burn in hell. There is no hell. There is no afterlife.

It's really funny how the big atheist loves to say stuff like "Oh God" and "Burn in hell."

[JonathanLB]

Yes, Biz is one of the ONLY reasonable people around. In fact, no matter who Biz is talking to, he's always calm, tolerant, and reasonable. I am nowhere near like that, so I applaud you for that Biz.

"They are given to us by God (our Creator.)"

NO, they are not. God doesn't exist and no God made you nor me. That is your problem if you don't understand that. God didn't give us our rights. My rights exist because I am a free person in a free nation (mostly).

STUPIDITY is a crime, so that's the law that the mother is guilty of. She had six kids and had no money to support them. STUPID. That may not be a crime but it damn well should be! Haha. Just kidding... I wouldn't want to see half of you in jail ;)

JOKING! lol.

The government DOES have the right to take kids away from their parents. I think they should also have the right to tell a person they cannot have kids anymore if they cannot support them. If not, then I guess just let the kids starve. That must be your solution, which is fine I suppose. Whatever.

I don't agree with any form of welfare unless it is for disabled people who honestly cannot work. So, if the person can work they get no help. If their kids die of starvation because of that, then I guess that's just the way the world works. Unless you support taking the kids away, which I think is reasonable. Either way, I am against any welfare. Individual organizations or religious groups can help people in need, but not the government. There's too much loss of money when you hand it to them and they hand it somewhere else.

[foxdvd]

It all started when Jon made a statement that he would not change his life at all. He in no way cut anyone down and then Jedieb said this..(though I must admit I can see why he said it)


Quote:
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Well just keep up the great work Jon. Everyone digging through rubble and stepping over body parts appreciates the effort you're making of not missing any movies whatsoever. All the kids across the country that are emptying their piggy banks appreciate the fact that you're not going to let this keep you from going to the movies this weekend. The great lengths you're going to to avoid making any change in your daily activities warms my heart.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------



not an attack, but you have to admit it is cutting Jon down for how he feels. In that same post, and remember that he at this point did not focus any anger at anyone at this forum


Quote:
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
I guess whenever we see clips of teenagers in uniform we know you'll be with them in spirit, because you sure as hell won't be anywhere near them.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------



of course, we can understand anyone getting angry here because of the tragic loss of life at the time.

At this point Jedi Master Kyle agreed with Jedieb. ReaperFett on the other hand stood up for Jon, and told Jedieb he had gone a little to far.


Things moved on, and everyone calmed back into normal discussion. Then Jon started a thread once again saying it was ok for him to do what he wants..there was a bit of anger here, but once again none aimed at anyone at the forum.

At this point Doc called Jon
Quote:
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Jon, you sound much like old Scrooge here.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

though it was not an attack. You could see the forum start to get angry at Jon’s political perspective. Jon got angry at this point, and was upset at Doc for telling him he was just young.

Jedieb finally got back to the thread..and said this
Quote:
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
You are a hypocrit. You sit back and wait for others to your dirty work for you. Exactly why is it that you think YOU get to sit back and do nothing while others fight and die?
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------



Not an attack, but something negative aimed again at Jon. And this
Quote:
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
So now the government is full of thieves and Democrats are evil. That's so simplistic and idiotic I can't believe you honestly expect anyone here to take it seriously.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------



Not an attack, because he was not calling Jon an idiot, but what Jon said to be idiotic, but just more wood. Still in this thread, the flaming started to get a bit more. As far as I know, we should always keep our post from attacking a person. Attack their believe, but do not attack them..
Quote:
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Please refrain from using the word "we' tough guy. It's insulting to the people who have done the fighting in the past and those who will have to do it in the future.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------



Also by Jedieb


Quote:
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
I actually pity Jon. To think that he loves nothing as much as he loves himself.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------



At this point, to MY amazement was that Jon did not attack back. He ignored the flames. He changed the subject and moved on. He then made some more of his personal beliefs on the situation, which even if everyone here disagrees with him, is no reason to attack him. Of course, Jedieb did not let it go like Jon, and made a big post trying to show how Jon contradicted himself. Now this would not be wrong by itself, but after the anger at Jon earlier, and the fact that Jon moved on it probably should have been toned down a bit. He then ends it with this


Quote:
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
That's the most honest statement Jon's made. You can bet that all he's EVER going to do is sit and watch while others act on his behalf. He has to stick his head in the sand and ignore certain statements, some of those statements being his own, because he's revealed himself to be unpatriotic and a hypocrite.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------



I like Jedieb a LOT..he is really an intelligent person and really adds a lot to the forum, but this was enough up to this point for a mod or adm to say “cool it a bit. “ Not enough for any action to be taken, but if you take all that was said up to this point, you have to understand that that last post was just to far.

At this point Jon for the first time lashed back. After a long post defeneding himself, he makes this final point. His FIRST attack, but only after all the other things, and if you read it, he at least explains he like of Jedieb.


Quote:
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Jedieb, you make me sick sometimes. I have never harbored any ill-will towards you but you CONTINUE to act like a total moron and honestly make yourself look confrontational and ignorant at the same time. GROW UP!
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------



then Jedieb went ballistic


Quote:
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
That's complete and utter garbage. There's not a single person here who believes you'd have the guts to defend anything but yourself. As for Vietnam, it's nice to see that you pick and choose when to stand up for your country. You say your a conservative Republican? Well there were no more fervent supporters of the war in Vietnam than conservative Republicans. You would have supported that war against communism back in 65 like many other Republicans, and even some Democrats. Now with the benefit of hindsight you call it a wasted effort and label the men and women who fought and died there sheep. You're a joke.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------




Quote:
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Yet the spoiled, self centered, arrogant, elitist, cowardly sunshine patriot says I make him sick.
Quote:
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------


direct attacks at Jon…

Everyone in the thread praises Jedieb for attacking Jon. You see, this is people using forum rules to support their beliefs. If we are going to enforce forum rules that you should not flame someone, it should not be ok to do so if that person had a different political view then you. That is unfair. Of course this is when Jon exploded. Yes his attack was bigger because he used a couple of cuss words, but the anger was the same as Jedieb, and you HAV

[buffjedi]

Hey Jon you may not Beleave and thats your right BUT ,I'm hopeful for you :)

I think Jon,(and I'm not going to speak or mean to speak for EB(S) I think YES you two would get along great and DOC too.I just know EB(s) Takes the Love for the USA VERY seriously. Being a VET and all I'm sure when someone speaks about not willing to fight for there freedom as he and many others have I feel it just runs all over him. I wouls also like to say SOMETIMES (NOT A SLAM) you can be a little brash not saying you mean to or its not your Right to, it's just the impression I get .Your both good guys,just a bit HARD HEADED ;)

buffjedi2/wookieboy

[JonathanLB]

"Some threat coming from an atheist. Remember, Jon, he can't burn in hell. There is no hell. There is no afterlife."

It's figuratively speaking silly. LOL. That's why it isn't a threat either because I don't even believe in hell. It's just a saying expressing my frustration. So I stepped over the line finally, or more like he PULLED me over it would be accurate.

[jjwr]

Otherwise, I guess we cannot. If I met Jedieb in real life I bet we would have good conversations and I think he is probably a reasonable person, but online he seems to think he can just insult people over and over again and that somehow is not meaningful. You wouldn't say that to my face just as I wouldn't have said the last few posts to YOUR face.

Jon, you yourself seem to quite often insult people over and over, but you never see it that way.

Your comments to Jedieb were way out of line. His comments were opinions of you and your lifestyle, it was heated but it was a argument, but your last few comments were not argumentive, straight out flames and ugly ones at that.

Please respond.

[foxdvd]

well that post was all messed up, but you get the idea...sorry.

[Doc Milo]

I know it's a figure of speech. And I don't mean only you. A lot of atheists I know use similar terms. I just find it funny that someone who doesn't believe in God, Heaven, Hell, the Devil or an afterlife would use those terms. Maybe that's just my warped sense of humor.

You see, to me, someone who does believe, those terms are very powerful. Invoking God's name is not something I do lightly -- and taking it it vain is something I try not to do at all (notice try -- frustrations in life do get the better of me. I'm not perfect. As Buff said, any Christian who thinks s/he is perfect really doesn't understand Christianity.) And a curse (as in "I'm cursing you," not a swear word) like "Burn in hell" is also very powerful.

[foxdvd]

JJWR..I disagree that all of Jedieb’s flames were aimed at just Jon's political beliefs

[Atreyu]

Fox's post got cut off the end there I think.

I hereby declare myself a confused cause. :/

[Jedi Master Carr]

Jon, you need to calm down man you are becoming too arrogant and be a pain. I have been staying out of it mostly because I know you are a teenager and most (I know I did) think they are right about everything so I just ignored some of those comments. Also I do find some of your comments hypcrotcial if you are a republican to me you sound more like a libertarian. Now if you are there is nothing wrong with that and they side with you on most of those issues. Now, Jon I have almost never have had a problem with you and I just wanted to comment to try and get you to calm down and take easy you need to think before you write and be sensitive about what you say. You will never get your point across if you call everyone a moron, it just isn't polite. I really think you should apologize to Jedieb for calling him that because it is the honorable thing to do.

[JonathanLB]

Ok fine, JJWR, you are right those were inappropriate comments so I apologize, ok? How about Jedieb apologize for the numerous times he insulted me, as Fox pointed out, and the times he called into question my concern for my country? That is very serious to me. Although he may not believe I am patriotic, I very much love the United States and would be willing to serve it in battle. I want my life to contribute meaningfully to the US and to the world, so for him to question my love of the US is absurd to me.

I DO insult people sometimes and I DO see that, JJWR, but I don't think Jedieb sees that he was insulting me throughout almost the entire thread. I tried to ignore it as much as I possibly could but finally all that just gets to me and the ONLY time anyone says anything is when *I* flame someone, so that's another good reason for me doing it! My own flame brings attention to his past ones, so that's the only way you people realize that you have a double standard here.

If we're going to have a conversation then you MUST criticize the points and not the people, but over and over I have been assaulted by Jedieb and he has attacked me as a person at least ten times before I said anything offensive back to him. Eventually, though, I hit back just as the US will hit back. It's the only response to that BS. He has been insulting me constantly and the only way to deal with that after putting up with it for days is to do the same back eventually.

Anyway, I am sorry about the whole incident including Jedieb's words to me. I'm sorry he feels it necessary to say that and I'm sorry I stooped to his level.

[foxdvd]

I fixed my post for the most part...I am having the hardest time fixing it.

[Atreyu]

Now that's weird - when I posted above I could only see fox's last comment, yet now there are another half a dozen or so posts here. Oh well. :/

Regarding the 'who baited who' dispute we're having here, well I don't particularly want to take sides. The only thing I would say in all this is that whilst technically Jedieb may have 'flamed' Jon first, some of Jon's earlier posts can be seen as antagonistic that were just asking for a heated respose from someone down the line, depending on your point of view.

Some food for thought.

[JonathanLB]

JMC, I don't think that I am always right, but we're not talking about right and wrong. We're talking about opinions and therefore I'm never wrong here, nor is anyone else wrong. These are all just matters of opinion, not of fact.

If I am wrong on a factual issue I'm more than willing to admit I was wrong and apologize for making a factual mistake. For instance, if I happened to misinterpret something then I would have to admit I was wrong, but ideas are never wrong or right. They're just ideas.

The fact that I'm a teenager has nothing to do with it whatsoever. I'm just as intelligent and able to speak of these matters as anyone else here. The fact that I'm already mad at other factors and Jedieb is further pushing me into anger is definitely a part of it, though. I don't take kindly to flames at any time, but let alone when I'm pissed about other things away from the forum.

Don't kid yourself either, Jedieb did a lot more flamming than I did. I only retaliated for his actions, which in my opinion is perfectly acceptable. You hit me, I hit back. So just don't touch me, then everything is fine.

Well, anyhow, I like Jedi Master Carr. Enough of this idiotic thread. If you disagree with me so be it but I have expressed no opinions that are not in line with many other people in our nation too. If you disagree, that is fine, but don't act like I'm suggesting anything weird here when half the nation or more agrees with me on most of these issues. Does that make them right? No, nor does it make them wrong, but I don't see what the fuss is about expressing ideas and opinions that are commonly held.

Furthermore, I am NOT a damn libertarian or whatever you said. I'm a solid republican and most all of my beliefs are in line with them, though NOT all of them are exactly the same. Everyone is different and differs with their party on some issues.

[foxdvd]

I would like to add that calling someone


Yet the spoiled, self centered, arrogant, elitist, cowardly sunshine patriot says I make him sick. is worst in my mind then what Jon said...I mean cuss words never really hurt, but the above post was just mean.

[foxdvd]

And yes, Jon has a way of making people mad...just ask QGJ...

[JonathanLB]

MUAHAHAHA. Now that was funny.

Nah I bet QGJ is a good guy in real life too, probably. I could never forgive him for what he did, but he's probably a good guy if you get to know him.

[buffjedi]

There comes a time...When we hear a certain call and the world must come together as one...there are people dying and it's time to lend a hand to life,, the greatest gift of alllllllll

we cant go on pretending day by day that someone some where ,,will soon make the change// we all are a part of GODS great big family// and the TRUTH you know LOVE is all we need ////////// WE! are the world ,, we are the children... we are the ones who will make a brighter day so lets start giving.........

[foxdvd]

sniff sniff...foxdvd wipes a tear away from his eye.

LOL

that was funny buffjedi. :)

[Doc Milo]

Jedieb wasn't the only one who took some serious offense to the attitude Jon was portraying in his earlier posts. I took offense to that attitude as well.

Perhaps it was poor communication on Jon's part, but his posts made it sound like he thought that since he pays taxes, he doesn't feel any obligation to help the victims of the WTC and Pentagon; he also made it sound like if America goes to war, he would sit home and watch the war on TV without lifting a finger to help the war effort (and that doesn't necessarily mean going to battle or fighting, but just doing thing at home, from giving to charities, to volunteering spare time to help in any way he could (for example, there will be people that usually help out in various charities that may be reservists and are called to duty. There will then be a need at the charity that person used to help out.) There are numerous things that one can do to help out during war time. Jon's posts made it sound like he felt no obligation to do any of that. Let others do that, while he sat around watching movies...

Now, that may not be what he meant, nor how he really feels, but that is what he said. And I can see how that attitude would grate on someone who served their country in battle, as Jedieb has. It grated on me, and I never have served in battle.

Jedieb merely responded to this attitude with righteous indignation. I fail to see the "numerous flames" that Jon feels were aimed at him. I did see criticism of the attitude taken in Jon's posts.

[JonathanLB]

If you fail to see them, then simply read Fox's post and if you still fail to see them, you know you're blind and should consult a doctor about your condition.

I don't feel any obligation to help, no. I'm not part of the army and I'm not working for the government. Obligation implies I feel I NEED to go do something, which I certainly don't. There's very little I can do in this situation. I don't see why that would make you angry or whatever. Most people are not going to, nor need to, do anything different than they normally would do.

[buffjedi]

Thanx FOX,

The whole time I was using my Micheal Jackson voice ;)


buffjedi2/wookieboy

[foxdvd]

that Jon feels were aimed at him. I did see criticism of the attitude taken in Jon's posts.

:( sigh...

[foxdvd]

this is a really long thread! I rule..anyone notice the FOXDVD started this thread? Hmm? AHAHA! I rule! Because of my brilliant post, people just had to post in this thread!

[foxdvd]

Ok..joke is over,....Good work JOn..you see people, this was just Jon and me trying to bring life back to this forum...as you can see it worked...no reason to hate Jon anymore people. He really voted for Gore! True Story! Anyway, we can all move along now. :)

[JonathanLB]

That's absolutely right. Anyone notice how my comments made this thread super long? So who rules more, me or Fox? I think it's pretty close. I mean, look at all the activity here!

It's like Episode II is coming out tomorrow!

[buffjedi]

:lol:

[Jedi Master Carr]

I am just making comments about that some of your opinions on wealfare are in line with the libertarian view now of course you might disagree with the rest of their beliefs and then I could not call you a libertarian. As far as whom flammed who first who knows and who cares why not both of you apologize and make amends and we can end this silly argument. Well it looks like I will be handing my nobel prize to fox this time, he did the best job in trying to keep order on this board, though I admit an administrator should have stepped in long ago which makes me wonder if we have enought adms? Just curious maybe all the adms were busy this weekend or just didn't see this coming.

[foxdvd]

That's absolutely right.


see..proof Jon voted for Gore! :) No reason to hate Jon.

[JonathanLB]

haha, sorry. It's all good, we had fun though right Fox?

I'm surprised that actually worked, but it was all in good fun.

[buffjedi]

Hey , It must have been a set up I feel used :) ,AHHH man I didn't even get SLAMMED ONCE :( Jon did you ovr look my Grammer errors , on purpose ?? :lol:



buffjedi2/wookieboy

[foxdvd]

I am really a libertarian...for years I went as a Republican, but always felt the Govt should keep their noses out of what people do. Why should they be able to tell a Gay man who he wants to love, or why should they be able to tell me I can not smoke dope? That is one thing about Rep. that always drove me crazy...they preach smaller govt., but want bigger govt. at the same time.

[Doc Milo]

First off, Jon:

All I stated was an opinion of this entire conversation, did I deserve this "flame"?


If you fail to see them, then simply read Fox's post and if you still fail to see them, you know you're blind and should consult a doctor about your condition.

And, since I did go back and re-read this thread, it seems to me that Jedieb's comment you point out as a flame (which I would admit is a flame, but the only one I can see in all his posts aimed at you -- the others merely responded to points you made, and the tone you took) was in response to this quote from you:


Jedieb, you make me sick sometimes. I have never harbored any ill-will towards you but you CONTINUE to act like a total moron and honestly make yourself look confrontational and ignorant at the same time. GROW UP!

That seems to me like you started the flaming there.

[JonathanLB]

Nah this had to just be between a few people, otherwise it could have gotten more messy.

Did you see Fox and I's fake fight on the Swamps a few days ago? I guess that was just last night. Well, we've done a lot of crap like that before. I guess it's just a testament to how bored I am.

By the way, I already gave $20 to the Red Cross through Amazon. I don't really feel that nobody should donate anything, sh*t, don't believe you people thought that. I guess I'm in the wrong business because I should go into acting instead of directing maybe. Nah, I suck at acting in real life. Just online it must be easier.

Well, I have HOMEWORK! How much does that suck? Better at least start it.

[JonathanLB]

Doc, it was just a joke as you are DOC, get it? It was a joke...

Sorry man, haha. :)

[foxdvd]

That seems to me like you started the flaming there.

Doc, I put that in my post..if you read it, I point out all these things..

[Doc Milo]

Yeah, I see that. The posts are coming so quickly here that I missed a few while in the response window.

I'm glad to hear it, Jon. I really am.

[foxdvd]

my long post is like 30 responses back now....

[JonathanLB]

Speaking of the whole religion dealie, that is my homework right now: read about seven chapters (I'm behind) of two religion books on the world's various faiths.

[buffjedi]

You guy's are sick :p

I hope ole EB(s) see' the humor :(

Just glad it's over (I hope)

because I sure didn'y feel like singing the rest of we are the world ;)





buffjedi2/wookieboy

[Doc Milo]

And I didn't want to hear it, Buff. No offense, but I think you cracked a few windows in my house! :)

[buffjedi]

WHAT DO YOU MEAN DOC's, NOT A DOCTOR!!!!?????????!!!!!!!





Buffjedi2/wookieboy

[JonathanLB]

haha, Buff I am more sick than that. Did you see my other thread on the Swamps where I was talking to my friend and I had him going for like twenty minutes that I was planning to commit suicide? LOL. Man, he's too easy to fool is the thing. It would have been more fun if it was more challening...

[Doc Milo]

Buff, you didn't know I wasn't a doctor?

(Doctor Milo is a character from a short story I wrote.)

[JonathanLB]

Is that short story on display anywhere? I'd love to read it...

[Doc Milo]

Not currently. Pretty long ago (not even sure if the story is any good!) But give me a few days and I'll see if I can get it onto HTML and post a link...

[buffjedi]

WAIT A DERN MINUTE!!!

Let me get this right..


Jons NOT an ARS ??????? ;)


and DOC"S not a real Doctor ?????

What will you guy's be saying next? there's no Santa clause or Easter bunny (he's so cute) ???




Buffjedi2/wookieboy

[buffjedi]

:lol:

sorry about the windows DOC , the check is in the mail ;)





buffjedi/wookieboy

[JonathanLB]

What are you talking about?! I AM an ass! I take offense to that remark ;)

Ok Doc, well I would like to read it sometime if you happen to get it up or available somewhere. I am just getting into writing short stories and I really think it can be a lot of fun, but you have to have some idea and then you just run with it. I only get those types of ideas every once in a while, but I suppose if I sat down and thought of it.

I'd like to work on doing a short story each week, then polish each one, and send them in to various magazines for publication. Even if they're all rejected, I am bound to hit one day or another and at least I would feel like I'm making some progress...

[Jedi Master Carr]

I just hope Jedieb reads everything before he responds. I know one thing I have been behind the whole time. Every time I post 5 people have posted before me, shows how big this got tonight. Its hard to believe that this is the longest active going thread in this forum, there might be some older ones that went longer, I don't know and whole half of it is about Tuesday's tragedy the rest is split between Jedieb and Jon's flame war and the rest of us trying to stop it.

[JonathanLB]

Well yes indeed, so I guess Fox and I did succeed at making the longest thread around here recently. Well, Jedieb gets massive props too. Without him it obviously wouldn't have been possible to make this thread so long. If he doesn't think this is funny at all, that's understandable, Fox and I were sort of being asses.

I'm an ass, sorry! I admit it.

[Doc Milo]

Ok Doc, well I would like to read it sometime if you happen to get it up or available somewhere. I am just getting into writing short stories and I really think it can be a lot of fun, but you have to have some idea and then you just run with it.

Funny thing is, I take the screen name from that story, but it has never been published. I did have it up on the internet before, asking people for their opinions of it (since I was having so little luck with placing it) but it's since been taken down. Hopefully, I can find that old HTML file (unlikely as I've gone through various reformats of my hard drive in that time.) I don't know if I saved the HTML file on a floppy (I did save the original file on a floppy.)

One thing about it -- which I can't seem to fix, because to do so would take away from the mystery of the plot -- is it is kind of confusing to follow.

If I get it up and you do read it, Jon, I'd love some helpful criticism. Maybe you can see something I haven't been able to (and I haven't even looked at that story in a while!) that might help. I'd welcome criticism from anyone. I'd love to place this "child" into a home! :)

[JonathanLB]

Yeah my first and newest short story also needs some revising and is also apparently somewhat confusing in a few aspects, so I think I know how to fix that but I'm not quite sure if I can pull it off as I want to do.

Short stories range in length, too. Mine is especially short. At 1,500 words, that's definitely not long. I think the changes I will add could make it more like 2,000, but that's still not sizeable. Different publications want different lengths, though, and my mom is supposed to be sending me that Writers Market book that has "8,000 editors who buy what you write." I forgot to bring it with me here to college.

I just write these for fun kind of as a way to hone my skills and as a hobby for now. While I consider my nonfiction writing professional and expect to be paid for what I write or eventually find a publisher, etc, with the short stories I'm just going to keep writing them in hopes that my skills will improve and maybe if every week I sent new submissions to various publications, I'd eventually find success.

Until I succeed at writing effective short stories, I will not begin my first novel even though I really have some great ideas for it and I think it could turn out well. It's a tough, tough market for fiction, though.

[JonathanLB]

What should the US do if Afghanistan fails to turn over Osama Bin Laden? -- CNN.com

41,000 votes:

Increased Diplomatic Pressure: 19%

A Quick Tactical Strike Aimed at Capturing or Killing Bin Laden: 27%

Massive Military Action Against Afghanistan: 55%

I definitely support the majority on this one. Anyone else?

[ReaperFett]

I'm with the 27%

[JonathanLB]

if it is simply "aimed at" capturing or killing him, are you in support of a prolonged military campaign that will not end until he and his men are brought to justice?

I take the middle option there to mean a simple attempt to bring him to justice instead of a real effort to do so.

Anyway, I agree with Bush's statement: "We will make no distinction between the terrorists who did this and the countries that harbor them."

[jjwr]

Ok fine, JJWR, you are right those were inappropriate comments so I apologize, ok? How about Jedieb apologize for the numerous times he insulted me, as Fox pointed out, and the times he called into question my concern for my country? That is very serious to me. Although he may not believe I am patriotic, I very much love the United States and would be willing to serve it in battle. I want my life to contribute meaningfully to the US and to the world, so for him to question my love of the US is absurd to me.

In light of what has recently happened and your fairly ignorant attitude of your posts its no suprise you made Jedieb rise up to that level. He obviously cares very deeply for this country. His comments were all opinions on your character and lifestyle, some of them may not have been nice but they were opinions along those lines. Instead of responding intelligently to those opinions you chose to act like a immature teenager and flame him outright.



I DO insult people sometimes and I DO see that, JJWR, but I don't think Jedieb sees that he was insulting me throughout almost the entire thread.

Yes opinions can be insulting, but rather debate all his points intelligently and try to prove him wrong you blew up and flamed him.


Eventually, though, I hit back just as the US will hit back. It's the only response to that BS. He has been insulting me constantly and the only way to deal with that after putting up with it for days is to do the same back eventually.

Once again, a intelligent response debating his opinions would have been the way to go. Your always touting your intelligence and writing skills, so where were they?

This has always been your problem, you shoot off the hip, never think about what you write. It seems half the time your writing seems to from the standpoint of I'm better than you, when in fact your a 18-19yr old guy who hasn't even completed college yet. Half the time you don't have a clue what your talking about but you go off anyways and never look back. And when you get called on your remarks you completely ignore the ones that prove your incorrect.

After reading your comments in this thread I wouldn't put a single ounce of faith into the fact that you would truly stand up for this country if it was needed, I know for one I wouldn't want you standing beside me with something on the line.

Now is that a flame? No, its a character opinion I hold of you. With all your words in this thread you've not even come close to changing that opinion of you that I hold.

When you opened up and flamed Jedieb you revealed yourself to be the immature teenager we know you really are. When you can't handle the heat and your words finally catch up with you the only option you have is to flame someone.


Anyway, I am sorry about the whole incident including Jedieb's words to me. I'm sorry he feels it necessary to say that and I'm sorry I stooped to his level.

Personally I wish I could rise to his level, we need more like him who actually knows what this is all about.

[Jedieb]

Ah f*ck off Jedieb, you're such a queer isn't not even funny. Don't continually insult me in every post. All you've done is flame me without making ONE good point about my posts. Burn in hell dickweed.
Oh my god that's funny. I'm just wondering whether to put a whiny Martin Prince voice to that childish blathering or a petulant Olsen twin. Actually, that would be an insult to the Olsen twins, they're much tougher than Jon. Only in your "Jon is the center of the universe" can you think I haven't made a good point. Plenty of other people have, but I guess we're just all operating in the shadow of your greatness. I'm actually chuckling as I write this.


I wouldn't have fought in that war if it occurred today; I'd rather flee to Canada.
Try singing this at parties Jon;
"I'm a draft dodger and Bill Clinton is my hero!!" Instead of being a Canadian you could have volunteered for a medical unit that's sole mission would have been to care for wounded G.I.s. But no, you took a different stand, on the Canadian border to be exact.


People should THINK before they act (and you seem to think I haven't done that in this thread, but whatever), so I would not simply support my country's EVERY decision as you would, which is why you also could be labeled a sheep.
Nice try my little Canook wannabe. (I apologize if this offends any Canadian.) I can rail against some of the actions my country has commited for hours. But see, soldiers don't make policy, civilians do. It's their job to follow orders to the best of their ability. They don't have the luxury of participating only in battles in which victory is gauranteed. I can only imagine what I would have done in 65. I'd like to think I would have served if I'd been drafted. I think my service in DS is a good indicator that I wouldn't have run for the border like you would've. I know there's a better than even chance that I would hvae protested the war. I can only pray I would have had the decency to protest the actions and decisions of my leaders and the not the returning soldiers. Protesting at Kent State is one thing, spitting in a soldier's face and calling him a "baby killer" makes you a scumbag. It's not about being "sheep", it's about being a patriot. Something you've shown yourself not to be.


Now, that's the last straw. You know what I think of you now Jedieb. I think you're a flamming homo and one day you'll get what's coming to you. Damn idiot.

I'm sorry, but did the self admitted 18 year old virgin who's never kissed a girl call the 31 year old Desert Storm veteran and father of 2 a "flaming homo?" What exactly is coming to me? The support of the majority people reading this thread? A $250,000 house with a knock out wife and 3 kids so adorable they make some want to cry? A 30 year career in public education teaching 10-11 year old low income kids that there's a better world out there. Damn, my future does look bleak. Pity me guys.


You will never get your point across if you
call everyone a moron, it just isn't polite. I really think you should apologize to Jedieb for calling him that because it is the honorable thing to do.
JMC, you're truly an optimist. I wish I wasn't so jaded to think there's a snowball's chance in h.. Woops, sorry Doc. a snowball's chance in Florida he'd apologize for making an ass of himself.

I challenge anyone to go back and look at this thread and see if I've acted the way Jon has. You bet I took some shots, but were they as childish and silly as Jonboy's? If our argument were a prize fight it would have been stopped rounds ago with Jon on the floor scrambling around for his mouthpiece. jjwr, I suggest you close this thread down. All it can do now is provide more opportunities for Jon to embarrass himself.

In the words of Vader himself; "All too easy."

[JonathanLB]

haha, me thinks Jedieb has not read the whole thread.

JWR: "...that prove your incorrect."

I was never once proved incorrect. As you said we are dealing in opinions and opinions are never right or wrong, they're simply opinions. You have just shown exactly why your college education (I assume you have one) does not make you any more qualified to discuss anything.

Your comments are frankly just pathetic opinions that you held long before this thread anyway so that is why I address them at all. I really don't care how you feel about me because that's not my problem nor do I have to make it mine, but I definitely know what I am talking about and I always think about these issues before I respond. You may not *agree* with what I'm saying, but that doesn't automatically mean that I'm "wrong" or that I "didn't think about it" as any intelligent person would know.

[Jedi Master Kyle]

"Nice try my little Canook wannabe. (I apologize if this offends any Canadian.)"

HEY! It's Canuck, not Canook! Get it right next time or I shall will upon you the bleakest, most horrible winter-time blizzard you have ever seen! :)

[jjwr]

I'm not gonna take the time to write another post you'll just ignore as you always do when someone confronts you with a response that actaully makes sense.

You flamed Jedieb, for no real reason. I've had a few requests to ban you but I'll hold off for now, please don't let it happen again.

[Jedieb]

I would like to add that calling someone
Quote:
Yet the spoiled, self centered, arrogant, elitist, cowardly sunshine patriot says I make him sick. is worst in my mind then what Jon said...I mean cuss words never really hurt, but the above post was just mean.

You're right fox. That's an incredibly mean thing to say. If someone said to me I'd be furious. The difference between Jon and me is that I don't make comments that support every single one of those adjectives. Want an example?


I don't feel any obligation to help, no. I'm not part of the army and I'm not working for the government. Obligation implies I feel I NEED to go do something, which I certainly don't. There's very little I can do in this situation. I don't see why that would make you angry or whatever. Most people are not going to, nor need to, do anything different than they normally would do.

Does Jon say that "most" people aren't going to do anything because he needs to justify his lack of action and apathy? Tell me fox, would you stand in front of a town meeting today and say those words? Would you put that passage in a letter to a NYC firefighter? The President of the United States called for a day of Prayer and Rememberance and Jon did neither. What's worse, he seems proud of it. How do you defend that? What exactly has to happen before Jon thinks that he needs to do something? Do planes have to start falling on his front lawn? Does his university need to be the site of a terroist attack? Will this finally hit home when he tries to fly home and faces incredibly long delays at the airport?

Sometime next week a fireman is going to open a letter from some 10 year old kid. That child is going to tell the fireman that he's proud of him and he's sorry for his loss. Can you imagine what Jon COULD have done? What did Jon choose to write instead? he wrote the passage above, and countless other statements that similiar to that. Please, tell me how not to feel pity and anger at those statements. Make me understand fox.

[Jedieb]

Well I finally read through every post. I missed a few comments from jon, fox, jjwr, and a few others. I APOLOGIZE for the attacks unleashed. Although I felt I made many valid points and others have agreed. I have been under a tremdous strain these last few days. Aside from catching my usual Septmeber bout of the flu I've had trouble sleeping some nights and a couple of disturbing dreams to boot. If you'd told me you sent $20 Jon I would have given you props. (Is there anyway you could provide us with a scan of the receipt?) ;)

I want to share something with all of you before I go. Last Tuesday I found myself in tears on more than one occasion. Tears are swelling in my eyes now as I write this. I grew up with that skyline. I worked in the Pentagon. I know the kinds of people who've died in both places. Well to do professionals who make six figure incomes. Young kids working in the Pentagon who join the military to make a better world for themselves. What the hell did they do to deserve this? How can anyone not feel the anguish and anger that I feel? How can anyone not want to do SOMETHING to help these people? This shouldn't have to happen to you for you to FEEL something, to want to do SOMETHING! Those are the emotions that have been fueling my posts. I'm not someone who's gung ho and waves a flag every morning. I HATED being in the Army. I hated taking orders. I hated Basic Training, it was the worst 8 weeks of my life. But I served because I felt an obligation. Where would my parents be without this country? Where else could I have accomplished as much I have? How can anyone else NOT FEEL THE SAME OBLIGATIONS! That was what fueled my anger. The thought that someone with every advantage can take so much for granted made me furious.

I hope that something positive can come from this thread Jon. Think of what you can do for others. Think of the gifts that we BOTH have that we can pass on to others.

I will not attack anyone else in this thread. I will read through it one more time tonight. I need a break. I need to play with my kids and try not to think about the world they are now forced to live in. I just need to play.

May The Force Be With All Of Us

[buffjedi]

Guy's come on ENOUGH is ENOUGH!!!

IF I BUFFJEDI , the most mentally challenged person on this ENTIRE board. Can see that ALL of this bickering is USELESS and will NEVER be resolved THAN there must be some problem.

Jon if it truely was ment as a joke ,and JediEB (s) didn't read what was going on late/early night/morn. than let what he recently posted go (please :) )

I have said it once, I'll say it agian YOU guy's are down at my level of brutal force of words etc.. That should tell you something ;)

Remember Jon, EB's takes things about his country very seriuosly any attack on it ,is an attack on him.This I feel is a touchy subject for alot of people around the country not only Jedi EB(s)

We all know everyone has an opinion and is intitled to it,but it is sometimes how the Opinion is stated thats starts the ruckuss.

EB(s) you KNOW I'm far from being the right person to be giving you advice .But DON"T waste your time or your talents on such useless flamewars,You are THE MAN and will always be(in my book anyway)and a real MAN sometimes JUST has to walk away :)


AND ADMS. I wouldn't BAn Jon, He does add alot to this forum (more than I do) thats for sure .I feel he just sometimes has a problem expressing an opinion objectivly(not a slam on JON) we all have our faults.




Buffjedi/wookieboy

[buffjedi]

OOPPs Disregard my last post I see the Rainbow :)



buffjedi/wookieboy

[foxdvd]

Well it is no secret that I am Jon's friend, but I will say I did NOT agree with what he has said in this thread other then the stuff about attacking the people who did this...which I think most of us agree with.

If we go to war, and we find that we do not have enough men, I would be the first in line to join the military. I have given money to help those in need, though I do not feel I should tell others about it, or say how much, because I feel you will be blessed more if you keep it to yourself.(I prob should not even say it now) Still, no matter how much you guys hate Jon, and no matter how much you feel his ideas are wrong, in a free nation he has a right to feel that way. It is not fair to be able to flame him just because you feel he "deserves it" It is not fair to flame him because you did not like him before this thread.

And I still feel if you do not think Jon was attacked in this thread, you are blinded by your own hate of him. As much as some of the things he said confused me, I am not going to call him names.

Jedieb, you are not the only one in tears. I hope things get better for you. Even with all this death, I have seen more faith in our govt. from my students then I have seen in a long time.

[JonathanLB]

It would be impossible for any normal person not to be at least sad when watching a lot of this. Especially if you watched that one guy talk about how he was away from the office taking his son to Kindergarten or something and his entire staff was basically killed and he was very close to all of them like family. That's very sad and I would be lying if I didn't say that made me tear up. I wasn't actually sitting there crying, but I was definitely very sad.

Also, I am not religious so I do not pray and that part of Friday to me was not meaningful but I would just like to say that I didn't think of Friday as a day apart from any of the other days. I felt equally sad and frustrated each day after these events and even now it's not like we've all moved on. I just don't think you need a specific day to rememeber the victims, I think that can be every day. This similar argument has been brought up before in relationship to other holidays. I would like to think every day is a day to appreciate your nation and your friends and family, not just a few days. Perhaps that is too optimistic or idealistic, though, and I wouldn't say that I think every day about how glad I am to be an American (not as oppossed to, say, a Canadian, but instead of being starving in a third world country with no freedom for instance). I do think every day about how grateful I am to have my friends and my family, though. That is definitely a daily thing and I never take any of it for granted.

I guess I never felt specifically obligated to go do something right now related to this, aside from a monetary contribution for instance, and I don't really feel bad about that. I'm sorry, but I can't make myself feel one way or the other. It's like how I get frustrated with people who don't like The Phantom Menace. I guess I can't make them like a movie they didn't and maybe they really did want to love it. I know I'm using an analogy of two things that are quite different, but I think the concept is there.

As for showing a receipt, well, I really do agree with what Fox said there. I think it's the act of having done it that matters and not having other people know about it. I mean, people should donate money not because they want the media or the public to know (for instance, like celebrities or CEO's), but because they really feel strongly that it's the right thing to do. That's my personal belief about that.

Anyway, Jedieb, many of us have been sick lately. I am sorry you were too. I hope you get better. One of my friends down here at LMU was sick this weekend, still is I think, and I was sick just two weeks ago, my sister is very sick and has missed three days of school, and the list continues. It must be going around...

[Jedi Master Carr]

I am glad that spat is over and now we can move on and be more civil. As far as needing more troops I applaud you fox for wanting to serve, but I am afraid I could not serve in a war. Its not really that I would not be willing to risk my own life its the fact I don't think I could kill anybody it is just something I don't think I can do , so I would never volunteer and I am not worried about getting drafted because there is no draft and unless this thing escelates (which I doubt) really bad I doubt one would happen. Still, I applaud those who are able to fight, even though I cannot go.

[Doc Milo]

Okay, Jon, here's the short story you were interested in:

members.aol.com/drmilo/paradox.html (http://members.aol.com/drmilo/paradox.html)

(Anyone else who wants to read and comment, please do.)

[Jedieb]

e-mail me when you get a chance Doc.

[JonathanLB]

I think when we do send cruise missiles over to Afghanistan, each one should read in big bold letters on the side, "ALL YOUR BASE ARE BELONG TO US!"

hehe

[Doc Milo]

Has anyone else seen this photo?

The face of Satan in the WTC smoke.

http://members.aol.com/drmilo/wtcsmoke.jpg

Of course, you can see anything in smoke (like clouds) and then someone makes a suggestion, so that's what you then see....

[buffjedi]

Yikes!!!! Kinda of looks like BEA ARTHUR doesn't it Master Kyle ;)




buffjedi2/wookieboy

[Jedi Master Kyle]

Cripes!! Buff, you were right! She IS hot!

[buffjedi]

:lol:

took me a sec to get it :)



buffjedi2/wookieboy