The emperor is a sith lord.

[Aprentize]

Okey, here's another of my questions...
Tarkin says "You, my friend, are all that's left of their religion". WHY would he say that?!? The emperor has the force to. And thats something he doesnt sneak around with. He always says stuff like "I have felt it" or "I have forseen it". Its no secret the emperor is dark-force-sensitive, or a sithlord if you want. So why would tarkin ignore the emperors powers like that?

[Jedieb]

I think that's a line that GL wishes he could take back. Remember, when he wrote that there was no Darth Sidious or Qui-Gon, etc.. In fact Luke's character had been a girl just a few drafts earlier. I think that line may force Lucas into having Palpatine rise to power and declare himself Emperor, but still keep his force powers secret. Or he may just have the Emperor come out of the force closet, so to speak, and ignore the inconsistency.

[Jedi Master Kyle]

the joke is on Tarkin, the whole Empire knows, except tarkin, and every time he says something like that, the other Imperials snicker behind his back! :lol:

[Figrin D an]

I tend to think that it's a little inconsistency that Lucas will ignore.

Either that, or you could make the arguement that since the Emperor seldom uses his Force abilities in a dramatic fashion, unlike his apprentices (Maul and Vader) who basically do all of the dirty work, Tarkin tends to think of Palpatine more in terms of political power than his Dark Side powers. The fact that the Emperor is a powerful Force user doesn't play into Tarkin's mind that often, unlike Vader, whose power Tarkin has been witness to on several occasions. Therefore, saying that Vader is "all that's left of their religion" is just a slip of the tounge, and of the mind.

Yeah, I know, it's almost definately a script mistake by George, but it's fun to speculate the possibilities. :)

[Jedi Master Kyle]

I can live with that, i guess. after all, it probably gets easy to have a slip of the mind when you're Tarkin's age...

[Doc Milo]

I actually think it would be in the Palpatine's/Sidous' character to hide what he is. In TPM he manipulates behind the scenes. I think the Jedi may discover his secret, but by that time, they will be powerless -- or discredited -- and no one will believe that Palpatine is a Sith.

I think that he will rise to power, declare himself Emperor, and the only person who will know that Palpatine is a Sith is Vader. I don't think anyone in the Empire will know, nor will the public at large. Maybe Yoda and Obi-Wan will discover the secret, but by that time they will have been going into hiding...

As to the point that he's always "talking" like a Sith saying stuff like "I have forseen it." Think, do we ever see him talking to anyone aside from Luke and Vader? These are people who know what he is.

[Aprentize]

He does speak before others. When he walks with Jerjerod and Vader after arriving on DT2, he speaks in front of, or in the precense of, thousands of ST's and Officers.
And those russian-looking-guys with big muffy hats is present when Vader talks to him ("I told you to wait on the command ship").
So i think he shows it.

But of course, it probalbly is explained pretty good with tarkin slipping hi0s tounge.

[Doc Milo]

When he's walking on the Death Star 2, he's with Vader, and speaking only to Vader. It's not like he's speaking loud enough for everyone to hear him. He's not addressing the gathered troops...

The guys he speaks with in his chambers are his personal advisors. They probably know he is a Sith as well. I'm saying it's probably not general knowledge that the galaxy is being ruled by a Sith, even among the top military personnel like Tarkin.

[Bromine]

I agree that it probably isn't common knowledge that Palpy is a Sith. I have a theory that Palpy will turn the population of the galaxy against Force-users in general in order to wipe them out. Once he's all-powerful, he probably isn't so secretive about it because it really doesn't matter, but he doesn't announce the fact, either. Vader, on the other hand,is out and about so his Force use is more obvious.

When I read the ANH novelisation, there were a few lines that seemed to indicate the Emporer was just a figurehead and wasn't that important. I think Vader was supposed to be the top bad guy originally.

[Jedi Master Kyle]

didn't the moffs report to the emperor directly? that would mean either they reported to him directly, but not in person, so that the moffs couldn't see him and they wouldn't know, or Tarkin did slip up.

i know that they only got the power to report directly to the emperor during ANH, but there must have been a time when they were in the same room together...

[Doc Milo]

How would just being in the same room as the Emperor when reporting to him allow them to know he is strong in the Force?

So, they're in the same room and Tarkin is supposed to know Palpatine is a Sith because he wears the dark robes of a Sith? I don't think that would be enough evidence for Tarkin to make such an assumption...

[Atreyu]

It might be too simple but I always thought Tarkin was simply referring to the fact that Vader himself was once a Jedi. Like he was saying: "The Jedi are now extinct - you are the only evidence they ever even existed" sort of thing. Palpatine of course has always been a Sith so he never factored into that statement at all.

[Jedi Master Kyle]

that's true too.

if i saw a decrepit old man, wearing black robes, ruling an empire, and giving orders to darth vader, i would assume that he has more power than just political power. plus that red aura around his eyes is a little freaky too...

[Doc Milo]

Along Atreyu's line of thinking:

We know that the Jedi are in service to the Republic, and they answer to the Supreme Chancellor.

So, what if no one knows of the Sith existance; what if Tarkin actually thinks Vader is the last Jedi alive! So the last of the Jedi serving the Emperor would not be out of the ordinary, since the Jedi always servered the Chancellor anyway... Just a thought...

[scully x]

I agree that Palpatine hides his connection and use of the dark side of the force as that knowledge would possibly undermine his popularity with the masses.

The StarWars visual dictionary points out that the Emperor tries deliberately to affect the appearance of a simple, old man. His robes are not supposed to be symbolic of his Sith connection, but a simplistic universal garmet for a hetrogenous empire.

Amidala and Chancellor Vallorum (sp?) are fine examples of wasteful splendour, which Palpatine may distance himself from as a political tool. He may also want to disassociate his new rule with teh Jedi and "the force" in general.

I mean do we really know that the Jedi are well liked by teh average person?
Uncle Ben was certainly no fan. Nor did Han ever evince much respect for the Jedi. "Luke! Luke's crazy."

scully_x

[Figrin D an]

During the time of TPM and before, the Jedi were highly respected and revered throughout the galaxy as defenders of the peace and of the Republic. According to the EU, there are planets were the Jedi are almost treated like gods. The only groups that don't care for the Jedi that much are criminal organizations, like the Black Sun or the various Hutt clans, and, of course, rogue/dark Jedi and the Sith. Even then, the criminal elements tend to respect the Jedi's power enough to keep their distance avoid incidents with them.

I agree with Bromine that Palpatine will hatch a plan that will discredit the Jedi in the eyes of public, at least in the Core systems and in the government, enough to give him an excuse to wipe them out using any means at his disposal.

Now that I think about it, it is conceivable that Tarkin didn't know about Palpatine's Sith ties at all, or at least wasn't sure if he did or not.

From what we know of the films and the EU, how many people knew that Palpatine was a Sith lord?

Vader, of course.
Yoda
Luke Skywalker
Obi Wan Kenobi
Palpatine's aides (seen in ROTJ), presumably
Mara Jade

Other than that, there may be some that suspected that he had strong Force abilities, but we're never completely sure.

Tarkin?
Grand Admiral Thrawn?
Prince Xizor?

[Aprentize]

Xizor knows, doesnt he. I thought i read that in SOTE.

And, as someone said before, wouldnt people start wondering íf a dude like Vader takes orders from a wrinkled old guy like palpy. Seriously, Vader could take over the empire any minute, but he doesnt. WHY? Cuz he wouldnt dare. Wouldnt dare? WHY? Because palpy is more than a schrinkled old man. He is A SITH Point made?

[Doc Milo]

So why don't the Jedi take over the galaxy from the Republic and the Chancellor?

People would just assume the same kind of "deal" exists. Where the Chancellor rules, and the Jedi (or Vader, the Sith) serve the Chancellor.

[Jedi Master Carr]

I think Grand Admiral Thrawn knows he tells Paelleon that when the Emperor died the imperial forces fell apart like when when the Executer was destroyed. He says that the Emperor has some kind of control over the situation and by the way he described it sound like he knew, at least while talking to Paellleon, that the Emperor was a sith. Now, Thrawn could have figured this out later, who can say, he was very intelligent so he may have just figured it out. I do not know how this implies, but I recall in the game Tie Fighter their was a mysterious figure that you talked too after/before every mission and he seemed sith like, perhaps one of those councilers in ROTJ. Also there is one scene where they perform some kind of Sith ritual on you. Now these are both EU references and I am not sure how they prove that everyone knew Palpetine was a sith. Diffently a few people knew in the upper command of the empire like Thrawn, but how far did it go beyond that.

[Bromine]

I'm sticking to my theory that it starts out as a secret, and by the time of ANH, when the Emporer gets rid of the Imperial Senate, he doesn't really try keep it a secret anymore and people begin to figure it out.

If I saw a deecrepit old man ruling the galaxy, I'd assume he was quite cunning to gain control, but I wouldn't neccessarily come to the conclusion that he was a Sith.In totalitarian governments on our planet, a person can be old and weak but be in charge because of who he knows and what he's done. Vader doesn't have any political ties as far as we know. He's just a soldier.

[Jedi Master Kyle]

Question: <font color="yellow"> So why don't the Jedi take over the galaxy from the Republic and the Chancellor?
</font>

Answer: Adventure, excitement, a jedi craves not these things. hehehe

i think people have to wonder why vader doesn't seize control of the empire from this decrepit old dude. he kills his own men without thinking twice, so this old crip couldn't possibly put up a fight, could he? that's what the others around may ask themselves.

[Aprentize]

Jedi Master Kyle, I was JUST about to write that. I was just going to read all the posts and then say that the jedi didnt take over because thats not the stuff a jedi does. I was eaven going to use that quote! You are right. Everybody knows that Vader's the bad guy. He IS a very VERY bad guy. The old jedi were the guardians of peace and justise in the galaxy, and i dont think anybody came acuse vader of doing that! So people would start thinkin.........
My only conclussion can be that after he desolved the senate, there was no meaning in keeping it a secret anymore, just as somebody said preveously.....

[Bromine]

"People must be wondering, why doesn't Vader seize control?" Okay, here's something to keep in mind: Even in totalitarian dictatorships, you don't neccessarily take over simply by killing the Dictator. The Dictator is the Dictator because he has the backing of the military, as well as political ties to secure his position. One guy, no matter how powerful and evil, can't just come waltzing in, kill the dictator, and say, "I'm the leader now, okay everyone?"

Look at the dictators throughtout history. Did they stay in charge because they were big and tough and could personally kick butt? No, they were in charge because of political influence. Vader was really just a warrior. If the Emporer died, I tend to think that the Empire would rally behind an Admiral or another high-ranking official. Darth Vader was powerful, but not in a political or military sense.

[Figrin D an]

In most historical cases, you are correct, Bromine, about dictatorial power...

However, I think that Vader is more than just a warrior. He has political aspirations as well. Part of the reason he tries to bring Luke to the Dark Side of the Force is so that Vader can usurp power from Palpatine. The EU describes that the relationship between Palpatine and Vader has always been somewhat tense and that neither really trusts the other. Palpatine knows that Vader wants to rule as the next emperor and that Vader would kill him if given the opportunity. Vader knows that Palpatine is extremely powerful and kill him quite easily. But, Vader also feels that if he could get Luke to help him, they could overthrow Palpatine together. Then Vader becomes the master, and Luke the apprentice.

I could see, in the event of the Emperor's death, some of the Imperial Navy throwing their support to a Grand Admiral or one of the Moffs, but Vader would be able to convince most of the military to join with him, simply because of fear. Even with a fleet of ships supporting them, an admiral or Moff would still have to fear for their own lives. Vader has a way of getting to people, one way or the other, and making his enemies suffer (a fact that we will hopefully see in Episode III). The use of iron fist tactics would give Vader most of the support needed to take control, at least temporarily. Eventually, there would be revolts against him because Vader isn't the clever, scheming strategist that Palpatine is. Vader would use "muscle" to rule the galaxy, while Palpatine had the political background necessary to manipulate a given situation in many different ways.

So, Vader has the desire for political power, perhaps even the strength to take it, but not the cunning to keep it.

[Bromine]

I see your point. I agree, Vader would most probably have siezed power.
However, what I'm really trying to get at is that from the viewpoint of those around Vader and Palpy, they wouldn't automatically assume that since Vader is strong in the dark side, he should have killed Palpy and since he hasn't Palpy must be a Sith also. Just seems like a big jump in logic considering what I mentioned before.

[Figrin D an]

Ah, I see now... And I agree, I don't think you can make the conclusion that Palpatine is a Sith simply because of the given circumstances. I think some of the higher ranking Imperials (ie. the Moffs, Grand Admirals, regional Governors) suspect that there is more to Palpatine that meets the eye, but they have no real proof.

[Doc Milo]

Jedi Master Kyle posted:
Question: So why don't the Jedi take over the galaxy from the Republic and the Chancellor?

Answer: Adventure, excitement, a jedi craves not these things. hehehe

Aprentize posted:
Everybody knows that Vader's the bad guy. He IS a very VERY bad guy. The old jedi were the guardians of peace and justise in the galaxy, and i dont think anybody came acuse vader of doing that!
================================================== ==========
WE can't accuse Vader of being the guardian of peace and Justice, from our point of view. But view it from the point of view of Tarkin, or other Imperial Officers, or the average citizen of the Empire who either believes in the Emperor's rule, or at the very least view him as the rightful ruler of the galaxy.

To these people, the rebels are criminals. To these people, Vader is, indeed, the 'guardian of peace and justice.' He is the Emperor's enforcer, and the Emperor IS the law.

From their limited experience (they don't know things that we do when we judge who is good and who is bad -- they approach things from a limited point of view) they would know that the Jedi are the people who use the Force. They would know that the Jedi, the guardians of peace and justice, traditionally served the Chancellor of the Republic. They would see Vader serving the Emperor, and think that this tradition is being upheld in the Empire. There would be no need for them to assume the Emperor is a Sith Lord or has any power in the Force, because the Jedi already provided the structure for their service, and they may just believe that Vader follows that Code.

I'm looking at what they may believe from their point of view, using their past experiences with the subject. Remember, the Sith have been believed extinct for a millenia. Tarkin says that Vader is all that is left of the Jedi religion. Wouldn't you say it is possible that the Sith never reveal themselves to the galaxy, that people believe that Vader is actually a JEDI, and as such, serves the Chancellor, or in this case, Emperor?

Take that scenario a step further. If Vader is seen as a Jedi to the masses, and he is seen by those people as the Emperor's enforcer, and those people will fall into two categories: Those who believe in the Emperor's rule, and those who oppose it; to those who believe in the Emeperor's rule, Vader would be in the traditional Jedi role of guardian of peace and justice (as defined, of course, by the Emperor); to those who oppose, and they believe Vader is a Jedi, then the Jedi are put into a negative light.

Either way, in this scenario, there would be no reason for them to believe that the Emperor has to have Force powers in order to keep his power. They'd just assume that Vader has taken the traditional role of the Jedi.

[Jedi Master Kyle]

that all will hold true provided palpy never reveals himself to the entire galaxy as sidious.

[Bromine]

I doubt he will reveal himself as Sidious. In fact, I don't think most of the galaxy will ever even know the name Sidious. As far as we know, only the Trade Federation and Maul know him as Sidious. Probably the Jedi will know of him.
I was pondering that point about whether the general population of the galaxy will ever know about the Sith. Remember Maul's line, "At last we will reveal ourselves to the Jedi. At last we will have our revenge." I'm guessing the Sith will reveal themselves only to the Jedi only.

[Doc Milo]

That would be my guess too. Which is why I think Tarkin referring to Vader as "all that's left of their religion (meaning the Jedi religion)" is telling. It might just mean that the galaxy, and the Imperial soldiers, actually view Vader as a Jedi.