David Brin is at it again

[Jedi Master Carr]

Not sure how many of you remember but about 6 months go Brin viciously attacked Star Wars, not just TPM but the whole saga, in Salon well he has a new article in Sci-Fi magazine. I glanced through it but I tossed it down disgussed. In the article he trashes Star Wars because he says it makes it appear that even if you are evil you can be redemend a view that he considers terrible. He makes comparisions, stupid ones I think, between Hitler and Darth Vader. He argues the world would not forgive Hitler for his actions if he saved his son, which is stupid because I did not see the alliance forgiving Vader just "the Force." A better comparrison would be if God forgave Hitler, which we would think is unimaginable but possible realize if you get deep into Christianity all one has to is tell God he/she is sorry before he/she dies and that person can be saved, so even Hitler, while unlikely, could possibly been saved. Really I just think Brin is jealous, he is a some what unsuccessful science fiction writer whose only work that made it to film, The Postman, was terrible. I think he is lashing out at Lucas because he has been successful and can't believe why people enjoy his work which lacks the garble writing that I can't not even read that is his own. He also goes on to say that Lucas has an agenda preaching that people should not be worried about doing evil because they can be redeamed at least I think, as I said I only glanced at it. If someone would like to read the full article and find out what Brin's total point is go ahead but I am not going to read that garbage again.

[Bromine]

I thought that was one of the greatest parts of the whole saga: It left you wondering what evil really was. Could a person be truly evil, or do people just do evil things? Is there a point where a person does enough bad things that he can be de-humanised and mistreated? Very deep questions.
And you're right; no one in Star Wars really "forgave" Vader. If he had survived, one could assume from the story that he would be treated as a criminal.
I remember watching ROTJ and having mixed feelings for Vader: On the one hand, he did many evil things. On the other hand, he was a person like anyone else, and at the end he was sorry and sacrificed his life. Is he a hero or a monster? Maybe both?
I think that's more true to life than many characters. People like to put people into simple roles. Hitler is a good example. Yes, he did many terrible, unspeakable things. However, despite the evil things he was responsible for, he WAS a person just like you and me. Who knows, he might have even had some good qualities. Does that mean I have to like him? Of course not! But on the other hand, it's far to easy to just point and say, "That person's ALL bad!"
Just my long-winded opinion.:)

[Jedi Master Kyle]

Whatever, Lucas is telling a story about the ETERNAL struggle between good and evil that everyone faces. He isn't preaching anything, just reminding a new generation of old school morals and values that seem to be long forgotten these days.

[Bromine]

"He also goes on to say that Lucas has an agenda preaching that people
should not be worried about doing evil because they can be redeamed at least I
think,"

Well, considering most religions have some sort of way to be forgiven or repent, either with beads or confessions or bloodletting or what have you, it seems silly to point the finger at Lucas.;)
I suppose it's simpler and easier to say anyone who does bad things is evil and will always be evil. Easier is not always the best, though.

Funny; half the time GL is criticised because Star Wars is too flaky and shallow, the other half he's criticised because it has all these deep messages. Which one is it, Brin? Can't have it both ways!;)

[Jedi Master Carr]

That is what I do not understand about Brin's reasoning that is why I think he is just jealous.

[Jedi Master Kyle]

I guess that comes with the territory of being the creator of the most successful films in history. people are going to dis you wherever and whenever they can in order to draw attention to themselves. They're like parasites. That's right David Brin, if you're reading this, you're a parasite.


Bromine is right, if there was no chance at redemption in your God's eyes, then why would anyone do anything good? To get laid? That's about it. Without believing in redemption and atonement for your mistakes, (no matter the size of said mistakes) everyone alive would just be doing whatever they damn well please. David Brin is a moron. We've witnessed that in "the Postman".

[Jedieb]

I've read some of Brin's SW stuff before and he does seem a bit envious of GL's success. But I also have my misgivings about Vader's "redemption". As far as I'm concerned, he should rot in Jedi Hell. I don't give a rat's but what you do in the last 15 minutes of your life or who you accept as your savior. Live like a scumbag, die and rot as a scumbag.

Let me get this straight, I can spend my whole life smacking my wife around and abusing my kids, but if I repent and accept the right diety I get off scot free? Say what? Damn, no wonder so many death row inmates find religion. It's too bad they get the absolution tickets to a happy afterlife but their some of their victims end up rotting in hell. Cuz if their victim was an atheist, agnostic, or non-believer then they burn, but the murdering scumbag who's accepted Jesus gets off scot free.

I've always thought it's more important how you live your life and treat the people around you than whose pew you kneel before, but that's just me. Bottom line, you help enslave a galaxy and contribute to the death of billions, you rot in Jedi Hell. But as the man in the Monday night booth says, that's just my opinion, I could be wrong.

[Jedi Master Kyle]

Maybe he's forgiven by the force, but he will certainly rot in the hell in the minds of the trillions of inhabitants around the galaxy, and ultimately, where they believe him to be is where he is. I think that because no one will ever bring proof of where someone goes after their physical life. I'm reminded of a line from a Tragically Hip song:
"We don't go to hell, the memories of us do."
I guess you can say what the people don't know won't hurt them. :)

[Bromine]

Well, relating this back to Star Wars, I still think of Vader as an evil monster. The movie does indicate that he was "reedeemed", though.
I see what you're gettng at, Jedieb. However, I think it's important to make the distinction between people that are about to be executed so they quickly find religion or whatever, or those that simply do whatever form of pennance is required without any real remorse, and those that actually feel regret for what they've done and try to make amends. Big difference, obviously. Of course, that's not to say that just because you're really sorry doesn't mean you have to pay; you do the crime, you do the time, as they say. However, if a person who does a terrible thing is forever damned (or however you want to word it; I'm trying to be generic:) , then does that mean he might as well continue doing terrible things since he's screwed his life up so bad, he is hopeless? That's not really fair, either.
But I think the real issue in Star Wars was whether Vader was truly evil. He proved that he wasn't by his act of sacrificing himself to save his son. In the same action, he got what he deserved: He died. He deserved death, no question about it. Afterward, however, because he was truly "good" so to speak, he still became one with the Force. To look at it another way, I'm sure if he survived, the Alliance would have him executed and that would be only fair, despite the fact he was now a good guy again.

[Jedi Master Kyle]

Maybe he would have been spared because of Luke's pull in the New Republic. He would have faced some sort of punishment though. Maybe a Napoleonic banishment to a barren, abandoned planet, like Hoth! :)

[Jedi Master Carr]

I lot of this I think is going to be revealed in the next two movies, I am not sure if he is the monster we think he is, the question is what evil things has he done. So far all we seen him do is kill a few people, mostly his own men. We might consider that evil, but there have been rational people who would say otherwise, in several world figures of the past would have done the same thing. One that comes to mind is Cardinal Richelieu, you might not know who is but he was a 17 century minister of France (by the way I did my masters thesis on him so that is why I bring him up) but he would argue that what ever is neccerssary for the good of the state should be done and killing people, if it is neccessary to keep order is fine, it is the Machavillain view of the world and in essence Vader is a Machavillain figure. Of course, Vader could have done worse things that we have not seen but as of yet we know of none. Finally I want to get back to this redemetion issue, in our own century I can think of two figures who were considered evil and tried to make aminds at the end of their lives: George Wallace, the gov of Alabama and Albert Speer the fiance minister of Nazi Germany. Wallace who had favored segregation for much of his time as gov changed his mind toward the end of his life (after an assassin tried to kill him) if he was honest about his transformation who knows but outwardly he showed some compassion. Speer was one of the key figures of the Holocaust some of his programs led to the deaths of millions, he was tried at Nuremberg and during the trial he told the Tribunal that he was wrong and that Hitler was a madman and he seemed so full of regret and remorse that the Tribunal only sentenced him to ten years in jail. In both of these men we can make comparrisons to Vader's redemetion but also I think that evil does not really exists but instead human beings are just complecated figures and anyone can kill someone, no matter how good of person they are and this has been proven with the Holocaust as most of the ones who killed the Jews were just ordinary men like you and me which makes it all the more intreguing to see Anakin's fall and finally his redemtion.

[Bromine]

Yeah, I think it would depend on what his involvement really was. We'll see in the prequels, I guess. Technically, all we've seen him do is follow orders. He DID torture Leia and lead battles but was he really any worse than any other officer in the Navy? Kind of an interesting thought. Personally, I think he'd be executed, or at least incarcerated for life. The Emporer would definitely be executed.

[Jedi Master Kyle]

Vader was much more Palpy's pawn than we may believe. Listen to him say "I MUST obey my master". He could be simply brainwashed by Palpy, or maybe he's actually afraid of him. In any event, there is a clear dependency there.

[Jedieb]

I'm familiar with 2 of the individuals you mentioned JMK, Wallace and Cardinal Richelieu. I know a lot more about Wallace than Richelieu. Wallace was an intriguing and tragic figure. He was a southern Democrat who cared deeply about the poor and their needs. But he was seduced by power, much the way that Vader was seduced by the Dark Side. Wallace knew that the way to be elected Governor of Alabama was to find an issue that would generate support and garner him votes. Segregation was the issue. Wallace wasn't an idiot. He knew it was only a matter of time before Alabama would be integrated, but he knew that the words "Segregation now, segregation forever!" would gain him the support and loyalty of white Alabama voters. Wallace became so powerful that when his first term expired he got his wife to run for governor and she won! (In Alabama, governors can only run once.) And here's a bit of irony, when blacks were finally allowed to vote for governor in Alabama more than 50% of them voted for Wallace's wife in her election. One black woman was quoted as saying: "I'd rather vote for a Devil I know, than one I don't." That's a pretty screwed up state of affairs when you're best option in an election is a man who's been telling you to get to the back of the bus.
Wallace did try to redeem himself in his later years. But I don't think it was enough. It certainly wasn't enough for the families of the four young black girls that were killed in the church bombing many say Wallace helped inspire. In the end these are philosophical questions we only learn the answers to once we leave this planet, and by then we can't share the answers. Unless your Shirley Maclaine of course.
As for Anakin, I don't think we're going to get to see him commit many evil acts in EP2 or EP3. I get the feeling that we're just going to catch him at the beginning of his fall. He's going to end up committing most of his atrocities off screen between EP3 and ANH. Personally, I'd love to see Vader go off and kick some Jedi ass, but I don't think we're going to see it. :(

[Jedi Master Carr]

I agree I think we can never really come to an answer to this age old argument. Getting past that there is one other point I would like to make. I remember reading on Space.com who did a serious of articles on Star Wars about Vader's redemetion. They argued that the Force, who they saw as a diety manipulated Vader to turn to the darkside so that he could destroy the Emperor and bring balance to the force. It is interesting argument and would actually help explain Vader's redemetion by saying it was his destiny to become evil so that he could get close of enough to the emperor and kill him.

[Bromine]

If the idea that Vader was "destined" to be evil in order to kill the Emporer is true, that would mean that the message in Vader's character is that you're not responsible for your actions, because an outside force controls you. I suppose that could be it, but I don't think so.
Besides, if the Force could make Vader fall to the Dark Side, why couldn't it just take away Palpy's power.

[Jedi Master Kyle]

GL has said that Anakin will become drunk with power, and his selfishness is what will lead him to the dark side, so in a way, he will be controlled by and outside source. But that doesn't mean he can't be held accountable for his actions.