I finally figured out why I dont really like TPM!!

[Starquest aka AndyR]

There isn't really any goodguy badguy interaction. there is no one to hate. and there is no one to side with.

In ANH, you get dropped into a life or death conflict between leah and vader, vader kills a guy with his bare hands just cause the guy doesn't know about the plans, and lukes family is slaughtered for some droids. so we end up hating the empire.

In ESB, Vader relentlessly pursues the falcon through the entire galaxy just to catch them, Vader is torturing han just to get luke to "feel" his pain and come to cloud city, then he drops the bomb on luke that he is his father.

In ROTJ, we have Jabba trying to have luke eaten by a rancor, then he tries to drop them all in the sarlaac pit, we have the emporer setting a trap so everyone will die, and we have the emporer trying to fry luke.

In TPM, we have is a couple of trade diplomats talking to a diplomatic queen (who only talks in a monotone), we have anakin racing, we have darth maul in a lightsaber fight, and we have qui-con getting killed by maul. Why have a villian made out to be cool, then have him killed off? I'll tell you why, cause lucas knows that if darth maul had anymore lines, people would have been rooting for him instead of obi-wan at the end. Did anyone see ANYTHING evil performed by either sidious or maul? or even by the trade flunkies? Did they kill anyone themselves? In the entire movie I only saw one person get killed by another person - which wasn't really evil or bad anyways - it was a noble sword fight, there was nothing evil there... unless you count that sneer on his face. Now if maul had come out of the doors chopping down the naboo trying to slice the queen, then that would've been evil....

Well that was my soap-box speech.... sorry you had to endure that...

Oh, and PS: I dont care what GL says - the original trilogy were NOT kids movies... except for maybe ROTJ...

[Jedi Master Carr]

No, Darth Maul was killed off because the series was not about him it was Anakin's fall to the darkside. I liked Maul getting killed I hated him after he killed Qui-Gon so I was happy he feel into that pit into two pieces. Also he did not have any lines because that would not been in his character he was the silent type much like Boba Fett.

[Doc Milo]

Evil comes in many forms.

Palpatine/Sidious' manipulations are evil. To cause a trade conflict between the huge, corrupt Trade Federation and then to have that Federation invade and take over a defenseless, peaceful planet all for his own political gain in the Republic Senate IS evil. There are many evils in the world (galaxy); there doesn't have to be someone killing another person in cold blood to depict evil.

TPM showed how the Republic was being corrupted. When a system becomes corrupted, the CORRUPTOR of that system in performing evil deeds.

The evil shown in TPM was actually on a grander scale. It wasn't personal. That may be what you're trying to get at. In the OT the conflict was more on a personal level. But that trilogy was also about something completely different. Where the OT was about Luke Skywalker's "coming of age" quest from dreamer to hero, this trilogy (and I can only judge this from TPM) seems to have a broader focus -- the fall of the Republic and the Rise of the Empire. By its very nature, that is not as personal. Of course, the next two movies probably will change that focus, as we get to see the rise and fall of Anakin Skywalker.

[Darth McBain]

Yes, Yes, to Doc Milo you listen...

I was just about to say virtually the exact same thing and then I scrolled down and Doc had beat me to it. Basically, the political corruption that goes on is the evil in TPM. Just look at the name - "The _Phantom_ Menace" That implies that there is a menace out there, but it isn't a huge outwardly evil menace, it is a menace that is covered in subterfuge, hiding in the shadows, not revealed...

This internal evil which was shown in TPM will set the stage for the formation of the Empire, which then has the clout to perform its outwardly evil acts.

[Bromine]

I agree with Doc and McBain. There was actually a lot of evil things going on, even more blatant than the political trickery. The invasion of Naboo involved putting everyone in camps and threatening to kill the entire population. Sidious told the Federation to "wipe out" the Gungans. Pretty darned evil, I'd say.
Also, I don't see how one can say Maul killing Qui-Gon wasn't evil because it was a "noble sword fight". Killing ain't right, and Maul set out to kill. Qui-Gon and Obi were forced to defend themselves.

[mez7]

why i didnt like TPM = fart jokes and slapstick humour,

why did GL think we needed these in the starwars universe?? it was just too full of kiddy humour, the origonal didnt need this stuff and they are still loved by kids all over,

he dumbed down starwars for the barney generation of kids, and i dont like that, hopefully the next will be better but with the knowledge that jar jar will be back im not holding out too much hope,

[Aprentize]

I agree to all of the above. But there is one thing that makes the evil a little too phantom. And that is that we never really SEE evil, you just hear about it. The conflicts, the orders given, those are just words. Showing some people starving or sitting in camps would been much more striking. Showing Maul..... I dunno, kill a tusken on tatooine or something would also have been good. What im saying is that the evil in TPM is too VERBAL, if there had been alittle more action to suport that, the movie could have been atleast a little better.
Oh, and BTW, Mez7 you say that ep2 doesnt look hopeful cuz jarjar is in it. Thats not true, GL was very surprised/shocked about the reaction to the gungan, and therefore he was very careful about his apearence in ep2. He took great affort in making the character more mature, so I think were going to see a completely different gungan in ep2. We might even like him, or at least, respect him.

[Jedi Master Carr]

I didn't like the toilet humor either, I wish that fart joke was not in there, hopefully it will be removed on the DVD. And I am not worry about Ep2 I think it will surprise a great many people.

[ReaperFett]

I don't care about them. All of 5 seconds of screen time spoiled it for you? Can you say 'fickle'?

[buff jedi 2]

I was thinking the same thing Reaper.


whats 5 sec's of bad scenes compared to 1hour32 mins and 55 secs out of the greatest movie ever made ???







buffjedi/wookieboy

[Bromine]

I agree that the evil could have been shown a little more, namely the invasion of Naboo. Seeing the Naboo defenders being mowed down and the populace carted off would have been more effective than just having the Federeation make some threats and hearing some references to people dying.

[wookie boy 2000]

Well you do see Gunguns die!!! =)






buffjedi/wookieboy

[Probe Droid]

The film was sorely lacking a good villain. Maul was little more than a hitman, and Sidious completly off-stage. Films like these need a bad guy who's just as much fun as the good guy. Let's face it, Vader is a tough--bordering on impossible--act to follow.

[mez7]

aprentize - personally im just not gettting my hopes up to high cause jarjar is in it, that doesnt mean i think the movie will suck, it could be great,
and GL was suprised by the outcry over jarjar??? come on is he really that out of it?? of course most adults arnt going to like him,


reaper and buff - the toilet/slapstick humour is alot more than 5 seconds watch the movie again a see for yourselves,

jar jar falls down
jar jar steps in crap
jar jar gets kicked in the nuts (by the pitdroid)
jar jar falls
jar jar gets farted on
jar jar falls
jar jar slips
jar jar falls again

what good did he actually do in the movie besides fall down???

[ReaperFett]

He created a likeable character, who people will sympathyse with come EP3

[wookie boy 2000]

I cant speak for REAPER BUT the 5 sec thing was like (he ran out of there like a bolt of lighting)not literal.Ive seen the movie 352 times =) anyway I know alot of people hate jar jar BUT I see nothing wrong with him.I think Reaper is right COME EPS 3 most people who hated him will be very saddend by his death.





buffjedi/wookieboy

[Jedi Master Carr]

I agree, sure I could do with out that fart joke but beside that the rest of the movie is nearly perfect for me and I also think Jar Jar's character will change over the course of the next two films. Another point is the argument that we don't see the evil deeds done in front of the camera. I have to disagree with that point, I think Lucas did show how Palpatine began his rise to the top through manipulating those around him. Is their anything more evil than trechery and betrayal. In Classic Mythology and Christianity those are the two greatest sins, think about Dante's Inferno where the last two levels of hell are for traitors and betrayers. I think this is what Lucas is trying to show. Part of the problem I guess is that it is not clear what is going on and wouldn't be until Palpatine's betrayal is complete by EP3. By manipulating the Queen, Palpatine is betraying the trust that she has him, she thinks he is a good wise man but in the meantime he is trying to kill her. I think that is more sinister than anything showed in the OT because we knew the empire was bad and we saw by their actions so when Leia was tortured by them their was no betrayal she knew that would happen to her. What I am really looking foward to is how Lucas will show Palpatine in the next two films and how the central characters will view his betrayal and eventually Anakin's.

[wookie boy 2000]

Well said Master Carr!!!!




buffjedi/wookieboy

[Darth Turbogeek]

I liked Jar Jar and I liked the "jokes".

What I cant listen to is the awful dialogue at the beginning. I fast forward the first twenty minutes as I cant put up with it.

I have a totally different reason why TPM isnt as good as the first three. The pace is wrong for Lucas' style of filmaking. It goes too fast. Lucas is a storyteller via visuals and franly, TPM raced too quick. Lucas needs to slow the action down and not rush the story, allow it to linger and build an emotinal impact.

What I found missing is the "grand scence", like Luke overlooking Tattooine and the twin suns, when the music swells. There was NOTHING like that in TPM. There was just no strong emotions. I noted towards the end it was getting a lot better, but still..... the first 20 min I dislike.

If EP2 is made to compliment the way Lucas makes films, it will rock. I want some scence in there taht will make me sit up and say "DAMN! That was good!" Where was that in TPM? Yeah, good movie, but it could have been a lot better.

[mez7]

"He created a likeable character"


not really since so many people hate him with a passion :p
ill be very happy with his death even if he does change, that doesnt change the fact that he just sucks ass in the first one

[Starquest aka AndyR]

actually there was one moment that could count as an emotional one, when anakin is leaving his mother. But I dont really count that, because it doesn't move me at all... it all just seems so shallow to me - like it was the last take of the day or someting... I cant explain it exactly, oh well.

I kindof look forward to how GL is going to portray the death of all the jedi. hopefully its not like TPM when a hologram just says "Thanks for calling! Queen Amidala is not in right now, but leave a message and she will get back to you as soon as she can." *BEEP* "people are dying! Call me back!" *CLICK* - that was very lame if that was what was really happening, and if that was a ruse to get a trace, then they should have shown the ruse so it would make sense. Either way....lame