The Jedi Trials

[DLRed5]

Hi all,

Just curious as to what exactly the trials consist of, and also why Lucas didn't include Obi-Wan's passing of them in TPM...

Thanks,

David (Red5)

[Jedi Master Kyle]

I think it's commonly agreed that the trials basically means whooping a sith lord, which Obi Wan did.
If you think to what Yoda tells Luke; "you must confront Vader, then, only then, a jedi will you be". I think that means that Luke would only be a jedi after beating a sith in battle.

[DLRed5]

That could be, Master Kyle, but then there is THIS to think about -- what about all that time, nearly a millenium, when there were NO Sith Lords to fight? Hmmm...

I also made the connection with Yoda telling Luke about confronting Vader. Nice catch. ;)

David (Red5)

[Jedi Master Kyle]

Don't you know? For the thousands of years between Sith appearances, the Jedi passed trials by playing 3 hour games of twister. The one that lasts longest can chop off their padawan braid. All others...well better limber up better next time! :)

[Jedieb]

I'm hopeful that we'll get to see Anakin's trials. Hopefully some Sith will be in the background complicating matters. I like JMK's trials. That's 700M at the box office for sure!

[Hart3584]

I always guessed that the Jedi Trials consisted of confronting a past tragedy and dealing with it correctly and calmly. Luke was faced with Vader, whom he was told killed his father and whose named plagued him. He failed it by succumbing to the darkside.

The only problem is, what if a Jedi doesn't have that kind of trauma behind him? So many were given to the Jedi to train since they were infants. Some of them at least had to have lead relatively normal lives. Not all of them had to have their homeworld blown up or their parents murdered. So what kind of trial were they given? Like you said, there really weren't Sith popping up everywhere to kill.

[Jedi Master Carr]

Its pretty simple actually, the trials is facing the dark side and not crossing over. Luke did this in ROTJ and he became a Jedi when he did not give into the darkside and kill his father. The same thing happened to Obi-Wan, he nearly crossed over after seeing his master struck down, but in the end he did not give in and defeated Maul using the light side of the force.

[Doc Milo]

Yes, to Jedi Master Carr you all shall listen...

It's actually explained in the novelization of Return of the Jedi, although the term, "Trials" isn't there.

In fact, we see Luke take the trials in ESB, and fail -- in the cave at Dagobah.

Yoda: "That place ... is strong with the dark side of the Force. A domain of evil it is. In you must go."

Luke: "What's in there?"

Yoda: "Only what you bring with you."

These lines of dialogue explain it very well. Luke must confront the dark side -- which is why he must go into the cave. What's in the cave? Only what Luke brings with him. So what is Luke facing? Not just the Dark Side, but HIS dark side. He must confront HIS dark side, and he must move past HIS dark side. What does Luke bring with him? On the surface, it's his weapons. But it's much more. Him bringing his weapons is showing an inherent lack of trust in the Force, and an ingrown fear -- of not being able to defend himself? As well as his anger. It was a practicioner of the dark side that "killed his father" (at that time, this is what he believes.) So Luke's dark side is brought with him, and that is what he faces, and that is what he gives into when he fights the apparition of Vader. He is unable to move past HIS dark side, thus fails his trials at that point in time. What Luke faced -- the aparition of Vader -- is why Yoda tells Luke that to become a Jedi Luke must face Vader, for Vader is representative of Luke's Dark Side.

Obi-Wan's trials in TPM were shown -- it was his defeat of Darth Maul. But merely defeating Darth Maul wasn't enough. If Obi-Wan would have continued on the path he had taken immediately after seeing Qui-Gon struck down, he, too would have failed his trials, for he fought out of anger and agression. But because he fought that way, he left his guard open for Maul's push with the Force. When Obi-Wan is hanging from the nozzle, we see him let go of his anger, and calm down. We see him move past his dark side. We see him use the Force for knowledge (remembering Qui-Gon's lightsaber) and defense (the manuever to leap over Maul and call Qui-Gon's lightsaber to him.) And thus, Obi-Wan passes his trials because he faced his dark side, his anger and his recklessness, and he moved past them.

The quote from Ben in the ROTJ novelization:

"To be a Jedi Luke, you must confront and then go beyond the dark side -- the side your father couldn't get past. Impatience is the easiest door -- for you, like your father."

[The Star Wars God]

Each of the suggestions I have heard so far seems foolish.


One test deciding the outcome of years of training would have been idiotic. Many tests covering an array of topics is much more likely. These tests would most likely have consisted of physical and mental barriers that must have been overcome.


The notion that the test is to face either the "Darkside" or a "Sith Lord" is extremely foolish. For millennia the Jedi where not taught of their fallen ancestors. The Jedi who originally fell to the Darkside of the Force. Only Jedi Masters would even have known of the existence of such people and even most of those do not know the entire story, or much about the Sith at all for that matter. Information on the "Darkside" was very closely guarded and not known by many. Only those trusted Jedi Masters would have been shown the Holocrons containing information reguarding the Darkside of the Force.


You can not compare Luke's training to that of Obi Wan. They were trained in different times. Lukes training was in another style, his trials never took place. If you recall, he left Dagobah to face Vader and save his friends. His training was "incomplete". Yoda never addressed him as a "Jedi Knight" he used this term to describe himself.


The ceremony signifying Obi Wans passing of the trials was formal. His kneeled position and presentation of the medal by Yoda. So such a formal test would also have been expected. Everything the Jedi did was based upon hundreds and hundreds of years of tradition. The trials would have been a set standard for each to complete and follow.

[Jedi Master Kyle]

You're right, Obi Wan and Luke were trained in different times. However, Qui Gon tells the council that Obi Wan is ready to take the trials, indicating that he hasn't taken them yet. When he is knighted at the end of the film, it is because he has passed his trials. So what did he do to pass the trials? He defeated a Sith lord, the toughest thing a Jedi can do.

When Luke revisits Yoda on Dagobah, Yoda specifically tells him that when he confronts and defeats Vader (we HAVE to assume that Yoda doesn't want Luke to LOSE to Vader) then and ONLY then will he be a Jedi.

So we have Obi Wan and Luke who were knighted AFTER having defeated a Sith using the light side of the force.
Of course Luke wasn't formally knighted as Obi Wan was because there was no one to knight him.

So my question is, why were each of them granted Jedi Knight status after defeating a Sith, and what were Luke's other mental and physical trials, as well as Obi Wan's mental and physical trials? Remebering that Qui Gon told the council that Obi Wan had yet to take the trials.

[DLRed5]

Wow, I was thinking that *I* thought too much about this subject... ;)

I like the variety in the answers given, even though I still see some fuzziness in a few of them. SW god was blunt but correct in a lot of his observations, I think. Above all, I think that the trials would consist of more than just one event or confrontation, or at least I HOPE they do.

About the Dagobah cave, I never considered that to be Luke's trials, b/c he was nowhere near ready for them. What, he had been training for like a week or so? LOL...

I do like the notion of facing a past hardship as being one aspect of the trials. That seems to be a consistent theme in the SW movies, so I say let it continue.

Great thoughts everyone! Oh yeah, Master Kyle, you had me ROFL over the Twister idea. ;)

David (Red5)

[Jedi Master Carr]

Doc really cleared it up I think. First I want to challeng SW God's point about the Jedi not knowing nothing about the darkside. Sure they knew very little about the sith, except for members of the council, but the darkside they would defintely have known. Just because they have seen any sith wouldn't have meant that they could have been influenced by the dark side of the force and that was the reason for the trials. Hopefully they will clear this up better in EP 2 with Anakin and have some words explaining this point.

[The Star Wars God]

Feel free to challenge my point. Then go out and read some of the books from the Expanded universe.

I personally recommend the "Tales of the Jedi" series put out by Dark Horse Comics. Good stories first of all. Within that it will point out to you that the Darkside was not a predominant force throughout the Jedi and was actually the rarity, opposed to the norm. Most Jedi never even knew it existed.

A consistent theme throughout the expanded universe is that the Jedi simple knew next to nothing about the Darkside, or about the Sith but, don't take my word for it. Go out there and read about it.

I still stick by my thoughts on the Jedi Trials as well. I believe they were just not shown in the movie, something us Die-Hards would love to have seen but did not make "Movie Sense" to put in. Good thoughts, keep them coming.

[Doc Milo]

Feel free to challenge my point. Then go out and read some of the books from the Expanded universe.

Problem number 1: Expanded Universe.

Don't get me wrong, I enjoy the EU -- but it isn't canon. There are levels of canon. The Lucas Licensing company uses this structure in it's levels of canon:

1. Canon
a. Level 1 (TPM, Special Editions) overwrites level 2 and 3 canon and lower levels.
b. Level 2 (classic trilogy)
c. Level 3 (novelizations)
d. Level 4 (radio dramatizations)

2. Official
Adult novels, some comics, some young adult novels.

3. Apocrypha
Kids novels such as Junior Jedi Knights and the Trioculous Saga, Wookiee storybook, Star Wars Holiday Special

4. Fan Fiction
TROOPS, fan films, fan-written stories.

The comics you speak of, would be official, but not canon. Anything canon over-rides anything "official." The Trials are now a concept brought up in the movies -- canon (brought up in TPM, canon level 1.) The definition of the trials, what I quoted from Ben in the RotJ novelization would be canon level 3. You can't argue against it with "official" information. Canon over-rides official.


I personally recommend the "Tales of the Jedi" series put out by Dark Horse Comics. Good stories first of all. Within that it will point out to you that the Darkside was not a predominant force throughout the Jedi and was actually the rarity, opposed to the norm. Most Jedi never even knew it existed.

Again, using official to over-ride canon. In SW canon (movies, novelizations, radio dramas) we see that the Jedi candidates are aware of the darkside in their training. Luke was warned against the dark side. Anakin was warned about the dark side. Anakin's training would have been more traditional. Before Anakin even trains, he is warned about anger and the dark side. "Fear is the path to the dark side. Fear leads to anger..."


A consistent theme throughout the expanded universe is that the Jedi simple knew next to nothing about the Darkside, or about the Sith but, don't take my word for it. Go out there and read about it.

And it doesn't matter what the EU says. Even among the EU, I'd classify the comics as the lowest form of "official."

Now, the explanation for the trials, even though the word "trials" isn't used in connection to it, is what Obi-Wan's spirit told Luke in the RotJ novelization (notice, a canon source, not an official one) "To be a Jedi, Luke, you must confront and then go beyond the dark side." This quote is illustrated in three movies. With Luke's failure in the Dagobah cave and with his ultimate success in RotJ, and with Obi-Wan's success against Maul. I agree that it has nothing to do with facing a Sith per se -- because for all those years, the Sith weren't common. But it does have to do with facing your own dark side. The trials, therefore, would be individual to each candidate -- having each candidate face their own darkness and move past it. Now, failure doesn't necessarily mean their training stops. Luke's training continued. (Another quote in ESB shows us that the dagobah cave was a trial: "The cave. Remember your failure at the cave.")

And just a side note, Luke was on Dagobah for months, perhaps as long as half a year or so. He is on Dagobah long enough for Falcon to make it from the Anoat system to the Bespin system at sublight speeds (the hyperdrive on the Falcon wasn't working, remember?)

So, no matter what the EU says, the fact remains that every canon source we see illustrates the same concept that "To be a Jedi, you must confront and go beyond the dark side." And those are what the trials are all about. You are not a Jedi until you do that.

In ESB, Yoda puts Luke through the trials. He confronts his dark side: an apparition of Vader. Vader becomes symbollic of Luke's dark side. Of the thing Luke must confront and move past: His father's destiny. As the movies continue, we see Luke traveling down the same path as his father. When Luke confronts Vader, and gives into his anger and defeats Vader, we see Luke look at his own mechanical hand, and then at Vader's. And it strikes him how much like his father he has become. He faces his anger. He recognizes his dark side. And then, he moves past it. He throws away his lightsaber. "You failed your highness, I am a Jedi, like my father before me." "So be it, Jedi." In that exchange, Luke is "Knighted." Luke faced his dark side and he moved beyond it. He finally becomes a Jedi Knight.

The same for Obi-Wan in his duel with Maul. After Qui-Gon is struck down, he gives into anger and recklessness, and hanging near death, he moves past it, and defeats Maul. Those were his trials. He becomes a Knight because of those actions in battle. Even the novelization of TPM (another canon source) doesn't make reference to any "formal trials" taken by Obi-Wan. The Council came to Naboo and discussed Obi-Wan's and Anakin's actions and decided to confer on Obi-Wan the level of Jedi Knight, and decided that Anakin is to be trained as a Jedi.

I'm sure there are formal trials -- Obi-Wan refers to them. But they test a certain thing: The ability of the padawn to move past his dark side.

[Doc Milo]

Just a few other points:


One test deciding the outcome of years of training would have been idiotic. Many tests covering an array of topics is much more likely. These tests would most likely have consisted of physical and mental barriers that must have been overcome.

When would these tests be taken? Are they taken all at once, or periodically throughout training? If all at once, isn't it really one test but "many questions" so to speak? And if taken periodically, what is the supporting evidence (on a canon level) for this assumption?


The notion that the test is to face either the "Darkside" or a "Sith Lord" is extremely foolish. For millennia the Jedi where not taught of their fallen ancestors. The Jedi who originally fell to the Darkside of the Force. Only Jedi Masters would even have known of the existence of such people and even most of those do not know the entire story, or much about the Sith at all for that matter. Information on the "Darkside" was very closely guarded and not known by many. Only those trusted Jedi Masters would have been shown the Holocrons containing information reguarding the Darkside of the Force.

Holocron, for one thing, so far, is an EU concept. Next: Foolish to say that the trials consist of facing the dark side when that notion comes from a canon source? While I'd agree that most Jedi probably don't know about the Sith (although Qui-Gon did, he assumed his enemy was a Sith Lord in TPM...) I don't agree that the Jedi know nothing about the dark side, or of its existence -- and I don't care what some comic somewhere says.


You can not compare Luke's training to that of Obi Wan. They were trained in different times. Lukes training was in another style, his trials never took place. If you recall, he left Dagobah to face Vader and save his friends. His training was "incomplete". Yoda never addressed him as a "Jedi Knight" he used this term to describe himself.

Luke's training was accelerated, I'll agree with that. But the training had the same destination in mind. To have Luke become a Jedi. And what we see on screen, in many areas, from dialogue to visuals, is that he must face his dark side to become a Jedi knight. From the dialogue I've already quoted to "I'm not afraid." "You will be. You will be." I disagree that Luke never faced his trials. The cave on dagobah were his trials, and he failed. He then continued his training. And his confrontation with Vader in RotJ is his trials where he finally passes.


The ceremony signifying Obi Wans passing of the trials was formal. His kneeled position and presentation of the medal by Yoda. So such a formal test would also have been expected. Everything the Jedi did was based upon hundreds and hundreds of years of tradition. The trials would have been a set standard for each to complete and follow.

There is nothing in a canon source to suggest that Obi-Wan took any formal test. It is implied through the canon sources that Obi-Wan's trials occurred when he faced Darth Maul and overcame his dark side. Canon sources does say that there is such a formal test called "the Trials." The formal test tests the Jedi Padawan's ability to move past the dark side. That is also in a canon source.

It's fairly simple logic to follow:

RotJ novelization: To become a Jedi you must confront and go beyond the dark side.

TPM makes reference to "The Trials" and it is clear that when one passes "The Trials" the padawan becomes a Jedi.

Put the two together to figure out what the trials consist of. The Trials would be a formal test where a Padawan faces his dark side, and if he passes, he moves beyond the dark side.

[Jedi Master Kyle]

Thanks for taking the time to post that Doc, I would have just said "EU? Inadmissable. Next." And thanks for speaking my mind regarding the topic. I think I could get used to this. You accept credit cards? :)

[Doc Milo]

All major credit cards, personal checks, money orders, and Paypal accepted :)

[Figrin D an]

Agreed, excellent posts, Doc. :) I don't think I could have said it any better.

I think it's important to realize that the 'trials' that Luke and Obi-Wan experienced are 'exceptions to the rule.' There are, as was indicated in TPM, an official set of trials that are used to determine if a padawan is ready to become a full Jedi Knight. However, it would also seem that the council can supercede the official trials and confer the title of Jedi Knight upon someone that they deem to be worthy. In the case of Obi-Wan, he overcame the temptation of the Dark Side, caused by the murder of his master, and defeated a Sith Lord. The council felt that, through these actions, Obi-Wan had demonstrated he was ready to be a Knight.

In the case of Luke, Yoda knew that the only way Luke could conquer his fears and move past the influence of the Dark Side was to confront and defeat his father. The moment Luke cast aside his lightsabre and refused to kill his father, he defeated the Dark Side's influence on him ... he became a Jedi Knight.
For Luke, there was no one around to confer the title upon him... it was more of spiritual achievement, and as Luke had triumphed over his deepest fears, he knew then that he was a true Jedi.

Luke and Obi-Wan were forced to confront extremely dangerous situations, both physically and emotionally. It seems likely that these instances were much more intense and grave than what a padawan might face in his/her trials. Luke and Obi-Wan mearly proved their worthiness to be Jedi Knights in different ways than the standard trials given to padawans.

[Pat Za Ponor]

All very interesting ideas.
Although I have another theory. I believe that the trials are simply tests that prove that your are one with the force. Whether they be physical, mental, or most likely both. I also don't believe that *the* trials (the trials that Qui Gon speaks of) are in the Original Trilogy. There was no Jedi Academy in the Original Trilogy and there was no Padawan/ Master relationship. Yes the end result and core of the learnings are the same, but taught differently. There was no structure like in TPM with all the Masters and students taken from birth.

Since TPM many believe that confronting the Dark side is the trial. But I do not see it that way. From much dialogue during the Jedi Council meetings you gather a sense that the dark side isn't well know, understood, or even treated upon seriously (at first). Therefore why would confronting the dark side be the trials.

Another point would be the fact that how could Qui Gon tell the Jedi Council that Obi Wan is ready to face the trials. How could Qui Gon or the Council put Obi Wan or other Jedi in a situation where they have to confront the dark side? It would just have to happen.

Which brings me to the Darth Maul and Obi Wan showdown. When Obi Wan defeats Maul he has yet to face the trials. By trials I refer the ones I believe that he must do before the Council that we have yet to see on screen. But, Obi Wan defeat Mauls. That is a huge point. If the trials are used to test a Padawan and see if he is one with the force and Obi Wan defeats a Sith then he, Obi Wan wouldn't need the trials would he? He proves that he is one with the force that way. But other Jedi wouldn't get the chance to fight a Sith Lord or confort the Dark side at all. Even in themselves since they seem to live a sheltered life in the Academy. And when they leave the Academy they are protected and overlooked by their Master. So Obi had no need of trials since he was proven, but other Jedi would.

Lastly, the term refered to in TPM is the trials. Trials, plural. Facing the dark side would be 1 trial and not several. This point might be reaching, but I think it helps to prove my other points.
-Zachary

[The Star Wars God]

First of all, impressive ramblings to support a wobbly theory. I never said Luke did not have to confront the Darkside. That was a given but that is not the same thing as the "Trials". We are discussing what the "Trials" consist of, not what Luke had to do do become a Jedi.

Second, (I am going to jump around so bare with me.) Qui Gon knew about this Sith, and what did I say? Masters would have that knowledge, but most Padawans and Knights would not.

Facing the Darkside would perhaps be a "part" of the Trials, from a certain point of view. However, their training was on many areas over years of time, passing one test does not make them ready, the Masters would certainly have known this.

Luke had to confront Vader before he could move on, this is true and directly said. However, it is never said that once he does this and succeeds that makes him a Jedi Knight, nor is it ever referred to as his "Trials". The first time we hear of the "Trials" is in TPM and, after all, that is the subject of this post. The Trials.

As for the difference in sources, well if you are going to stick with what is in the movies only or the books made from those movies, you are missing out on allot of great information and stories. The movies do not cover the "Golden Age of the Sith" or many other interesting times. You go ahead and stick with just the movies. I, however, will have hours of reading pleasure learning about new times in the Galaxy's history. Of course, for the time frame of the movies, I will take what they have to offer as fact. But, like I said, the movies do not cover Millennia of time which you would, otherwise, miss out on.

On a final note, the discussion of this thread was to deal with "The Trials" only. Not what is needed to become a Jedi. Conquering the Darkside is obviously part of Luke and Obi Wans training. We are here to discuss "The Trials" only.

[Doc Milo]

This is going to be another looong post -- sorry for being so wordy.

I agree with what Figrin D'an had to say but would like to point out that I believe the standard trials -- the formal tests alluded to -- would also be testing the padawan's ability to move past his or her dark side, to defeat the influence of the dark side and its temptations.

Luke and Obi-Wan's differed in that their trials were not under controlled circumstances. For them, it was literally life or death, or servitude to darkness (in Luke's case.)


Since TPM many believe that confronting the Dark side is the trial. But I do not see it that way. From much dialogue during the Jedi Council meetings you gather a sense that the dark side isn't well know, understood, or even treated upon seriously (at first). Therefore why would confronting the dark side be the trials.

Huh? I got the exact opposite. The dark side and its effects are taken very seriously by the Council in TPM. Why do you think they test Anakin? Why do you think Yoda's concerned with Anakin's age, and how far along fear is developed within him? "Afraid to lose her are you?" "What's that got to do with anything?" "EVERYTHING! Fear is the path to the dark side. Fear leads to anger. Anger leads to hate. Hate leads to suffering. I sense much fear in you." That whole conversation with Anakin, their initial refusal to train him . . . that all stems from their concern about the dark side.


Another point would be the fact that how could Qui Gon tell the Jedi Council that Obi Wan is ready to face the trials. How could Qui Gon or the Council put Obi Wan or other Jedi in a situation where they have to confront the dark side? It would just have to happen.

Luke was "put into a situation" where he'd face the dark side on Dagobah. Yoda put him in that situation. "That place. A domain of evil it is. IN YOU MUST GO." Why must he go in? Why? To face the dark side. Because Yoda is setting him up for a test . . . for a trial. "What's in there?" "Only what you take with you." If Luke had taken no weapons with him, his "trial" or "test" would have been much different than what it was.


First of all, impressive ramblings to support a wobbly theory. I never said Luke did not have to confront the Darkside. That was a given but that is not the same thing as the "Trials". We are discussing what the "Trials" consist of, not what Luke had to do do become a Jedi.

At least I have CANON sources to back up my "wobbly theory." I am not just dismissing a CANON source, namely the RotJ novelization. Ben did not say to Luke that only Luke had to face the dark side to become a Jedi. He said, "to become a Jedi, you must confront then move beyond the dark side." That means you must do that, or you don't become a Jedi. Sure, there might be other tests of your ability, but the only thing plainly stated in a CANON source, the achievement that MUST be made is that to become a Jedi, a padawan must confront an move beyond the dark side.

Watch TPM -- when they speak about the trials. It is clear that these tests that are called the trials are to test to see if a padawan is worthy of Knighthood. And what is it that makes a Jedi worthy of Knighthood? From a CANON source: confronting and moving past the dark side.

I'd agree that there would be a series of tests. But I'd be more likely to believe that they consist of barriers that the Jedi must overcome, barriers that are going to test areas of the Jedi's character. Some will test areas where the Jedi is strong, and others will test areas where the Jedi is weak. In the end, one of those tests will force the Jedi to face his dark side. Once that test is faced, and the Jedi confronts and moves past his dark side, then they pass their trials.

Luke, to go back to ESB, had a few weaknesses that are illustrated in the cave scene. Anger is one of them. Impatience is another. And trust in the Force is another. Luke failed another Trial besides the one he faced in the cave on Dagobah. The other one: Him attempting to get his X-Wing out of the swamp. This trial tested his trust and belief in the Force. "I-I don't believe it." "That is why you fail."

So yes, there are a series of tests -- but I'd say they are all designed to test the character of the Jedi, with the sole purpose of finding that weak area or areas in the Jedi's character where the temptation of the dark side is most likely to strike, and causing the Padawan to face that temptation, confront the dark side, and move past it.

You call my "theory" wobbly. But you have not supported yours at all.


As for the difference in sources, well if you are going to stick with what is in the movies only or the books made from those movies, you are missing out on allot of great information and stories. The movies do not cover the "Golden Age of the Sith" or many other interesting times. You go ahead and stick with just the movies. I, however, will have hours of reading pleasure learning about new times in the Galaxy's history. Of course, for the time frame of the movies, I will take what they have to offer as fact. But, like I said, the movies do not cover Millennia of time which you would, otherwise, miss out on.

Didn't I say that I read and enjoy the EU? The difference is, though, that I won't take anything in the EU as gospel. The movies define what is canon, and "Factual" within the myth. If the EU contradicts the canon source, then it is the EU that is wrong, not the canon source. So if you say, "The trials is this, because that's what Tales of the Jedi says." But a canon source says otherwise, then the EU is wrong. The canon source is right.


On a final note, the discussion of this thread was to deal with "The Trials" only. Not what is needed to become a Jedi. Conquering the Darkside is obviously part of Luke and Obi Wans training. We are here to discuss "The Trials" only.

What you fail to realize is that "The Trials" is what IS needed to become a Jedi. I refer back to TPM. Qui-Gon says that Obi-Wan is ready. Obi-Wan says, "I am ready to face the trials." Yoda says, "Our own council we will keep on who is ready." The Trials are the tests that determine whether one becomes a Jedi Knight. If you combine that with what was said in the RotJ novelization on what is required to become a Jedi, to confront and move past the dark side, you have a clearer picture on what the Trials contains.

Maybe we're just miscommunicating. What are the Trials? (This is the question you seem to want to answer) And the answer would be simple: The Trials are a series of tests to determine who is worthy of Knighthood. I'm not arguing against that. But the question I am answering, or attempting to answer, is "What do "The Trials" contain?" The answer to that is challenges that cause the Padawan to confront, and move beyond (if s/he is successful) the dark side.

Here's my final note: You called my "theory" wobbly and foolish in two separate posts. The thing is, you didn't answer the question at all. What are The Trials? What do they contain? I don't doubt that they are formal tests. But what do they contain?

You can't answer that because we don't know yet, right? But we do know two things from canon sources: The Trials are tests that determine whether a Padawan is worthy to be a Jedi Knight; and that to be a Jedi Knight, one must "confront and move beyond the dark side." It doesn't take a genius at logic to connect the two. If you do, you will get what I described: A series of tests whose ultimate goal is to force the Padawan to confront and move beyond the dark side.

[Figrin D an]

Isn't 'The Trials' and 'what is needed to become a Jedi' directly intertwined? The Trials are obviously part of what a padawan must experience to become a Jedi... I guess I don't see how one can be isolated from the other in discussion...

Good points, Doc... That's really my POV as well... Luke and Obi-Wan had their trials in a non-controlled environment, but it was a trial none-the-less... perhaps it was but one trial in each case, but it was apparently deemed enough to make them Jedi...

As far as the plural use, "trials", as was used in TPM.... I'm sure there are multiple trials that a padawan would undergo before becoming a Knight. (What some of those trials are, who knows... maybe we'll get to see them in Episode II in some fasion). The two 'apprentice to Jedi' transitions that we have witnessed thus far in the films have been under radically different circumstances... they weren't accomplished by official trials, persay, but they were trials in some sense of the word... in Obi-Wan's case, the council decided he had proven himself and knighted him... in Luke's case, there wasn't anyone around to say "Good Job, you're officially a Jedi now," he had rely on Yoda's dying words and a personal belief that he was, in fact, a Jedi...

The points made about 'canon' are important as well. I don't think anyone here is saying that the EU is not important, or that it should be entirely ignored. It's just important to note that when conflicts between the films and the books/comics arrise, the films always take precedence. I personally have read a good portion of the EU, and some of it is pretty good. But, anything that seems to conflict with something I see/hear in the films, I take it with a grain of salt and understand that the author took a few liberties...


(Edit: Whoops, looks like Doc beat me to the reply button on a couple of those points. :) )

[Jedi Master Carr]

First I want to thank Doc for doing a brillant job describing the relation of the darkside of the force to the trials. I doubt I could have done it any better. Second to SW God comment on the comic book. Now like Doc I like the EU and some of I even can consider to be almost cannon but still a lot of the material contridicts each other sometimes, although not as much as it used to, (think Splinter of the minds Eye) but there are a lot of different writers working on it today so you have a lot of different interpentations coming out especially on stuff like the Sith and the darkside. That is why I would not view that interpentation as official.

I think "the trials" will be explained in EP 2 or 3 probably when Anakin nears his challenge. I still think it involves confronting the Darkside, it might not be as big of test as what Luke faced or a confrotation of dark side user like Obi-wan facing Maul. They might use some kind of virtual reality chamber (from what we seen in the movies I am sure that kind of technology exists) and put them in bad situation and see how they react. If the student is able to overcome is anger and fear and not give into then he passes of course they might give them several of these tests and that could be why they are called, "the trials."

[Doc Milo]

Sorry, Figrin D'an, I edited my long response a lot there, because I initially responded to your original post with a short reply, but then decided to respond to the other two posts after yours, so I was going back and forth, editing my post to fit quotes in from the other two.


... in Luke's case, there wasn't anyone around to say "Good Job, you're officially a Jedi now," he had rely on Yoda's dying words and a personal belief that he was, in fact, a Jedi...

I always took this exchange:

Palpatine: "Good. Your hate has made you powerful. Now, fulfill your destiny and take your father's place at my side."

Luke (seeing how much he has become like his father, throwing lightsaber away) Never! I'll never turn to the dark side. You've failed, Your Highness. I am a Jedi, like my father before me."

Palpatine: "So be it . . . Jedi."

As the "Unofficial Official" Knighting of Luke. :)

[Figrin D an]

LOL... I suppose that is one way to think about it...

I always loved the way that Ian McDiarmid delivered that... "So be it... Jedi."
He sort of spits it out, showing a total disdain and contempt for the Jedi... it makes you realize that he must have had some kind of history with the Jedi... also, it's the perfect way to mock Luke and say "You are nothing, I will destroy you..."

All in all, part of what is great sequence when good rises up to defeat evil... probably my favorite moment in the trilogy. :)

[DLRed5]

This has been absolutely fantastic reading...kudos to all of you. Despite the lack of definitive information on the subject, I think I understand it as well as anyone could now.

I especially liked the noting of hierarchy in the Star Wars universe, because that has always bothered me to a degree. Not that I don't love all the "extra" material out there, but it is good to have it all sorted out as to what overrules what.

Doc, great postings...don't worry about length, I enjoyed all of it. :)

David (Red5)

[The Star Wars God]

First of all, let me say this. I am not completely disagreeing with you Doc. I agree that at some time in a Jedi's training they must learn control over their own Darkside. However, this should already be accomplished at a young age and tested throughout their training as a Padawan. Your statement, namely "I am not just dismissing a CANON source, namely the RotJ novelizations.", is not applicable to me. As I stated in my previous post, "Of course, for the time frame of the movies, I will take what they have to offer as fact.", meaning during that time period, I take my information from your "Canon" sources. That being said, I will make a few more points.

First off, the Jedi are trained in a certain discipline. This includes both physical and mental training. The concern with the age of a student is not the physical portion, as that can be easily overcome and relearned. It is with the mental aspect. A Jedi is trained in a certain way of thinking, of feeling, and dealing with those feelings. By the time a person has reached a certain age, their way of thinking has already become set. It will most likely remain that way for their entire life. Retraining a mind would be an extremely difficult process. This is where we find the difficulty in training older students.

Next I will address Lukes "becoming a Jedi Knight". First off, we know his training was not in the traditional style and was accelerated. (Though the time some people believe it was is much greater. As Doc pointed out it was months before the Falcon could have reached Bespin.) His training was in a different style, and I doubt the official "Trials" where ever planned for him by Yoda. Yoda tested him in another manner. And yes, his confrontation with vader was a personal test he had to face. So for the purpose of this thread we will dismiss Luke all together. (BTW The Emperor acknowledging Luke as a Jedi means a lot. Taking into account that the Emperor is technically a Jedi, just a Dark Jedi choosing to follow the dark path.)

Now to address Obi Wan. I believe he did, infact, take the official trials. I simply believe they were not shown in the film because most of the spectators, the ones who are not die-hards like us, would not be interested. I am sure it is a long and grueling process. It would not make "Movie Sense" to add them and drag out the film. This is not to say that watching his master cut down and then facing the man who did it without losing his hold on the light was not an equally, of not more so, important test. This is just to say it is not the norm. Jedi face battle many times during their training. This would not qualify them for Knighthood or he would have been Knighted the first time they returned to the council after the battle upon the droid control ship and the surface.

Now I will speculate, since that is all we can do, as to what is contained within the trials.

First off I believe their would be physical tests. These would most likely include basic rigors aswell as battle simulations and saber demonstrations.

Second I believe their would be tests of knowledge. These would include, most likely, laws of the Republic, history, and knowledge of the Galaxy in general. The general knowledge would likely touch on anatomy, psychology, and other various areas of study.

Third, and most likely the most rigorous and difficult tests, would be a mental/spiritual test. This would include contact with the force, i.e. something like Anakins reading the thoughts of the council "A ship, a cup, a ship, a speeder"..and much more advanced tests such as that. Most likely it would also include demonstration on all of the uses of the force. I would also expect this section to include psychological tests. Perhaps regarding ones past, though many would have a relatively normal life, and very likely covering areas of specific weakness. This would include family, friends, love (current or lost) things of that nature.

I will hold my speculations to a minimum here, but you get the idea. This is what I have taken away from both the "Canon" sources and the "Official" sources. But, this is just my opinion. As all we can do at this point in time is guess....

(BTW I do not believe we will see exactly what the Trials consist of during either of the next to films because, like I said, it does not make 'Movie Sense' to include it.)

[Doc Milo]

I will take what they have to offer as fact.", meaning during that time period, I take my information from your "Canon" sources. That being said, I will make a few more points.

You run into a sticky situation, though, when things contradict. For example: If during the time frame of the movies, The Trials are defined as something specific -- for the sake of argument, let's say The Trials become defined as what I have been saying, a series of challenges with the ultimate goal of testing the Jedi's character, to force him or her to face the dark side and move past it -- then if The Trials are defined as something different in one of the comics that takes place way before TPM, which is correct? They can't both be, just because they're in different time frams. The Trials would be a part of the Jedi Tradition. One must assume that the Trials we would see in the time frame of the movies would be the same thing as in the tradition.

(More later... gotta go...)

[The Star Wars God]

::Believes his made it clear that he takes his information from the movies first, EU second::

I guess I need to use smaller words.

[Jedieb]

Wow, this is a great thread. I can't believe I've missed so much of it. As usual Doc, you're right on the money.

First off, I'd have to say that I love the EU and outside of a few of the Rogue Squadron novels, the Bounty Hunter Trilogy, and some of the children's novels, I've read all of the EU. There a statement that SW God made early on that doesn't make any sense:

A consistent theme throughout the expanded universe is that the Jedi simple knew next to nothing about the Darkside, or about the Sith but, don't take my word for it. Go out there and read about it.

This is simply not true. There are several instances of the Jedi dealing with the Darkside of the force. The Tales of the Jedi comics have ample evidence of this. Everything from Exar Kun and Sith darkside magic, to Ulic Qel-Droma's struggles with the darkside. The EU is LITTERED with stories of Jedi struggling with the darkside. Anyone who's been reading the NJO can see evidence of this. (Jacen has made become the nauseiating poster child for Jedi dealing with the moral consequences of using the Force and dealing with the Darkside.) Everywhere that you look in the EU and find Jedi, you find them dealing with the Darkside.

Now, many of the Sith's teachings and their very existance have been beyond the knowledge of the Jedi, but the Darkside is NOT defined by the Sith. Again, anyone who's read the EU can tell you that. There are several Dark Jedi in the EU who have crossed over to the darkside, but are never referred to as Sith. Everyone from Xanatos to Dolph is an example of a Jedi crossing over from the light to the dark. The Darkside is PROMINENTLY featured in the EU. How anyone can say differently is laughable.

Anyone who has read ANY of the young adult novels, both prequel and post ROTJ can see that the Jedi constantly deal with the darkside during their training. Obi-Wan, Anakin Skywalker, Jaina, Jacen, Anakin Solo, Brakiss, Lowbacca, Tenel Ka (I could go on and on), all were lectured about the darkside by their masters and all had to confront it one way or the other. The evidence of this can be found throughout the EU.

The Trials
Just what are the trials? We'll find out one of two ways.
1) Lucas draws us a picture in Episode 2 or 3.
2) He never addresses the subject and it eventually gets defined by the EU.

From what we have seen I think there is ample evidence to suggest that the trials CAN differ from one Jedi to the next. In fact, the trials may be set up in a manner that allows the Council and the Padawan's Master to set up specific trials that suit their Padawan. If I remember correctly, I believe Xanatos, a former student of Qui-Gon, failed his trial and subsequently became a Dark Jedi. The trial was something that was engineered by Yoda. In fact, if I remember correctly, the trial was simply a mission for Xanatos that involved him confronting the Darkside. Yoda foresaw that the mission would indeed be a trial for Xanatos and thus his SPECIFIC trial was put into motion.

So I don't believe that there is a uniform set of tests that all Padawan's have to take in order to become Jedi Knights. I certainly don't believe that Obi-Wan passed any further tests after defeating Darth Maul. There simply wasn't any time, and there's been NO mention of his taking any further tests in the TPM novelization or in ANY prequel EU.

[Doc Milo]

::Believes his made it clear that he takes his information from the movies first, EU second::

I guess I need to use smaller words.

What is it with you and the insults already? From calling things "foolish" and "wobbly" and now insulting my intelligence. Maybe you should read what you write a little more carefully.

You did not say that you take your information from the movies first and the EU second. Here's what you did say:


As I stated in my previous post, "Of course, for the time frame of the movies, I will take what they have to offer as fact.", meaning during that time period, I take my information from your "Canon" sources. That being said, I will make a few more points. (Emphasis Mine)

Notice the bolded statements, both meaning the same thing. You only consider the movies more factual than the EU "during the time frame of the movies." Now you might think this is the same thing as taking movie info first, and EU second, but it is not. Because information in the movies doesn't only affect that specific time frame. The Jedi have a tradition that has lasted thousands of years. Something like "The Trials" would be a part of that tradition. The Trials, for example, would not be different pre-TPM than they are in TPM. So if the Trials are defined in the next two episodes, we must assume that those Trials are what always took place to test Jedi. So if the trials we see in Ep2 or Ep3 contradict the EU Tales of the Jedi or where-ever, even though those other stories take place thousands of years earlier, then those stories will be wrong.

Maybe, instead of tossing insults around, you should try reading what you wrote, and understand its meaning. You can't just say, "the movies are fact for their time frame." The movies are fact FOR ALL TIME FRAMES.


Now to address Obi Wan. I believe he did, infact, take the official trials. I simply believe they were not shown in the film because most of the spectators, the ones who are not die-hards like us, would not be interested. I am sure it is a long and grueling process. It would not make "Movie Sense" to add them and drag out the film.

You're wrong here. First off, the Trials need not be shown for us to know that Obi-Wan took them. All that would need be done is a mention that he had taken them. The information that he had taken them could be passed through conversation. You see, they make it a point to mention the Trials as an important step to "graduating" from padawan to Knight. Once the point is brought up, it should be brought to conclusion. If it was important enough to mention the Trials at all, then it is important enough to let us know that Obi-Wan did indeed take the trials and passed them. But that is not the case. What we see is that Obi-Wan is Knighted shortly after his defeat of Maul (before Qui-Gon's funeral, in fact.) There was no time between that victory and Qui-Gon's funeral for him to have taken those formal tests you mention. What we are left to assume -- because it is strongly implied -- is that Obi-Wan's victory over Maul WAS his trials.


(BTW The Emperor acknowledging Luke as a Jedi means a lot. Taking into account that the Emperor is technically a Jedi, just a Dark Jedi choosing to follow the dark path.)

I agree that the Emperor acknowledging Luke as a Jedi means a lot. It signifies his achievement in confronting and going beyond the dark side. It shows his victory. It is the Emperor acknowledging his defeat (his own failure to turn Luke.) That's why I said that I always considered that exchange to be Luke's "Knighting." But the Emperor is not a "Dark Jedi." The Emperor is a Sith. They are not the same; they are not interchangable.

[Doc Milo]

Whoops -- double post. Please delete this one...

[Jedieb]

Very well said Doc. It's a shame people can't post without being condescending or insulting, especially newbies.

The EU has always been on fragile ground for obvious reasons. Until the prequels are completed they can be discredited at any time. In fact, if Lucas were to one day decide to crank out 3 more sequels and give us Episodes 7-9 then you'd likely see everything after ROTJ tossed out the window. The same way that the Marvel comics had their timeline discarded.

The EU has always had to fill in blanks that the films have not covered. Take the training of Jedi. In the Kevin Anderson trilogy they books went to great length to show that no one knew ANYTHING about how to train Jedi. Luke had to scrounge all over the galaxy to find information. There are several problems with that. Primarily the fact that only a few decades have passed since the fall of the Jedi. There are plenty of people that were alive during the time of the Jedi that should still have been around in the post ROTJ era. Especially when you consider the SW galaxy is full of species with long life forms. The Emperor may have wiped out the Jedi, but he couldn't have killed everyone who KNEW about the Jedi and their methods. Everyone from admirers, Senators, beaurocrats, and support personnel all would have had information that could have helped Luke. And let's not forget the obvious, written and recorded records of Jedi activities. Isn't it amazing that the Emperor was able to erase all of those? Damn, he must have spent a lot of time erasing people's personal holgraphic and written records. That's quite a task! The reason why Luke couldn't find any information is obvious; Lucas declared that area off limits so the EU authors had to make flimsy excuses for not being able to find it. And that's always been a major weakness for the EU. Lucas has declared some areas off limits and they've had to tip toe around them. And they've known that Lucas could contradict them at ANY moment. Just look at what the ROTJ SE did to the Sarlac Pitt story of Boba Fett's escape.

The Emperor's Acknowledgement
In ESB Vader tells Luke he's not yet a Jedi. In ROTJ the Emperor calls him a Jedi after he defeats Vader AND refuses to finish him off and join him at his side. At the time, I'm not so sure the Emperor was thinking that Luke had finally passed a trial as he was disgusted with Luke and what the Jedi represented. The Jedi had always had a relationship with the Force that the Sith detested. They saw it as weak and demeaning. At the moment in which Luke turned away from the Darkside and chose to be a Jedi he was embodying all of the qualities that the Emperor despised in the Jedi. When he spat out the word "Jedi" he said as if it was a bad word. As if he was chatising not only Luke, but all of the Jedi he had destroyed years earlier.

[Jedi Master Carr]

First I am not sure if anybody besides the Jedi would know of their methods. The Jedi were very secertive and would not let anybody know of their methods, this is part of what got them in trouble because everybody saw them as elitist who would not mix with the common people. Second I think Palpatine went to great lenghts to purge people's recolection of the Jedi, I am sure he burned all records and killed all thoughs who even supported the Jedi at one time another, much like Hitler did to those who supported the Allies or those who tried rescuing the Jews. So in the regard I don't have a problem with this particular excuse of the writers.

I was wondering what you meant by the ROTJSE changing Boba fett's escape. I don't see that, sure he added a mouth the sarlaac but the people that went in the Sarlacc still didn't die for a while (the thing had no teeth) they were slowly digested as Jabba said. Sure it is a little far fetched that he escaped though it is explained a little better in the Bounty Hunter wars showing how Fett blew the thing up with a Thermal Dentenator and how Dengar found him badly scared and patched him up. The reason why Lucas let the writers bring him back is because the fans hated how he died not why. I did too it was a dumb way to get rid of a cool character. Personally I would have preferred if Lucas had left it the way he originally wanted that scene. There was suppose to be a big fight between Lando and Fett where Lando killed him, I could have accepted that better, but heck the writers probably still would have brought him back somehow.

[Doc Milo]

The Emperor's Acknowledgement
In ESB Vader tells Luke he's not yet a Jedi. In ROTJ the Emperor calls him a Jedi after he defeats Vader AND refuses to finish him off and join him at his side. At the time, I'm not so sure the Emperor was thinking that Luke had finally passed a trial as he was disgusted with Luke and what the Jedi represented. The Jedi had always had a relationship with the Force that the Sith detested. They saw it as weak and demeaning. At the moment in which Luke turned away from the Darkside and chose to be a Jedi he was embodying all of the qualities that the Emperor despised in the Jedi. When he spat out the word "Jedi" he said as if it was a bad word. As if he was chatising not only Luke, but all of the Jedi he had destroyed years earlier.

I agree with everything you say here, Jedieb. My point is not that the "Emperor Knight Luke" but that that exchange is more a "symbollic knighting of Luke."

[Jedieb]

What I meant by the ROTJSE change is that the original Sarlac is described in great detail in one of the early anthology books. Everything from the outside of the Sarlac to its innards. Fett languishes in there for days before he blasts himself out. So some EU details were rewritten right then and there.

As for Fett, I thought his death was unfitting as well. I would have to have seen him escape the Sarlac Pit and then follow Han to Endor. Face Han in an old fashioned western duel with Han beating him to the draw. It certainly would have given Han's character back some of the edge he had in ANH and ESB.