The Dark Side winning fights

[DLRed5]

Ok, since we had so many well-informed people on the Jedi trials thread, I thought I'd throw another one out that has me a little puzzled.

It seems to me that every Jedi battle we have seen in the movies has been won by using the Dark side. I even considered Obi-Wan's beating Maul to be that way, until reading what Doc or JMK wrote about him in the Jedi trials thread...calming down, thinking, etc. BUT -- what about the other movies?

Vader killed Obi-Wan -- ANGER, REVENGE.

Luke in ESB -- the only time he had an upper hand on Vader was after Vader said "Now, release your anger. Only your hatred can destroy me!" Luke backed him away until he fell off of the ledge and disappeared.

Vader in ESB -- the obvious, he got pissed off when Luke grazed him on the arm and responded by chopping Luke's hand off. :)

Luke in ROTJ -- after sister was mentioned, he took off on a rampage and brought Vader to his knees.

So, how is all of that justified? It seems to me that the Light side never has won except in the case of Obi-Wan vs. Maul.

Thoughts, my intelligent comrades? :)

David (Red5)

[General Ceel]

I think its a matter of control. The Jedi seem to tap into the darkside in the heat of battle but are able to pull back and remain Jedi. The sith on the other hand cannot control thier hate and anger, the darkside consumes them.

[DLRed5]

That sounds reasonable...never thought of it that way. After all, every being that has emotion will feel anger, fear, aggression, etc. It's just that Jedi don't cross a certain line. :)

David (Red5)

[Doc Milo]

I'm going to take them one by one:


Vader killed Obi-Wan -- ANGER, REVENGE ... Vader in ESB -- the obvious, he got pissed off when Luke grazed him on the arm and responded by chopping Luke's hand off.
And any other time Vader wins -- Vader is a Sith; his using the dark side to win is justified in that he is a Sith. That is how he would fight, using the dark side.


Luke in ESB -- the only time he had an upper hand on Vader was after Vader said "Now, release your anger. Only your hatred can destroy me!" Luke backed him away until he fell off of the ledge and disappeared.
Luke is a special case. Luke, in ESB, was not ready to face Vader. This is acknowledged in RotJ by Yoda, and can be seen in ESB through both Yoda's and Ben's warnings. When Luke uses the dark side like this, it adds to the suspense, because we are not only fearing for Luke's life, we are fearing for his "soul." It is not presented as a good thing that he has fought with anger and agression. When he does, we are supposed to be saying, "Calm down, Luke. Control. Control. Don't turn...." Because we can see him turning down that path.


Luke in ROTJ -- after sister was mentioned, he took off on a rampage and brought Vader to his knees.
Again, Luke is on the verge. He is at a crossroads. He can continue down the path that has "made him powerful" (as the Emperor tells him after he knocks Vader down and chops off his hand) and turn to the dark side with one bad decision, or he can turn away from the dark. This battle in RotJ is exactly the same symbollically as Obi-Wan's battle against Maul. Luke, in this battle, confronts his dark side. And then, in the end, he moves beyond it. Luke did not win because he used the dark side. Vader and the Emperor's intent was to make Luke do exactly what he did. When he used the dark side, he was losing, because the battle there was not against Vader, it was against the dark side itself. You must look past the physical battles being presented to see where the true battle is taking place. The true battle was for Luke's soul. So Luke became powerful and over-powered Vader by using the dark side: This is true. But by doing so, Luke was losing. He only won when he turned away from the darkness and refused to turn in the end, refused to kill his father, refused to take his father's place at the Emperor's side. That is where he won, not when he over-powered Vader.

This is where a lot of people become confused. Because the symbolism is that true power is not in physical force, but in self control. True strength is not in physical domination, but in service to others. That is the biggest difference between the Jedi and the Sith. The Jedi believe in using their talents in the service of others, not to dominate others. The Sith believe that "power denied is power wasted." That the true power of the Force is not to serve, but to dominate.

These principles are what are pitted against each other. So if you look at Luke's battle as "Luke vs. Vader" as a physcial battle, then yes, Luke "wins" using the dark side. But that is not how the battle is supposed to be seen -- that is not the battle being presented. Luke's battle is against himself, against his own dark side, so when he uses the dark side to physically dominate Vader, he is, in actuallity, losing.

[Jedi Master Kyle]

Good question; can the Jedi use their feelings of anger and agression to their advantage? Obviously, every creature feels these emotions. Perhaps its what separates Sith from Jedi, an ability to be aware of what they are doing. We saw Obi Wan in TPM go from anger to serenity and focus, in ROTJ we saw the same from Luke when Vader was struck down. One thing in common in both of their situations: both Luke and Obi Wan were in seemingly hopeless situations. Obi Wan dangling over the core, Luke faced with the galaxy's most powerful beings. If you ask me, it's then and there that the Jedi cast away their emotions and intuitively trust the force.

On a side note, in the ESB battle, I don't think Luke EVER had the upper hand in the fight. Vader was simply goading the impressionable Luke to embrace his negative feelings of hate and anger and to unleash them. Vader let Luke knock him off the ledge to give him the illusion that he was winning, and that if he continued to use those agressive feelings, he could conquer anything.

[Jedieb]

Vader vs. Ben
Did Vader really win? It seems to me Obi-Wan was holding his own until he gave up.

ESB Luke Vs. Vader
I don't really see Luke as giving into hate when he cut into Vader's shoulder. I think it was just Luke getting a second wind and being as aggressive as he could. But I would certainly agree that Vader quit playing games once Luke cut him.

ROTJ Luke Vs. Vader
It's fairly obvious Luke was fueled by the Darkside at the end of the battle. Before that however he was fairly in control of his emotions. And he was handling Vader easily. I even remember passages in the ROTJ novelization in which Vader feels both pride and embarrasment over Luke's skill. Luke is clearly a much superior and stronger fighther than his ESB incarnation. I would say that he had that fight won even without resorting to the Darkside. It makes you wonder what Luke's midi count was. Was he even stronger than Anakin? Or was Vader's mechanical body a shadow of the once powerful Anakin Skywalker? It would explain why Vader never had the power to overthrow the Emperor.

This is a good thread. The Darkside always does seem to have the upper hand in battles. It contradicts Yoda's "Quicker, easier, more seductive!" anthem. What I've always wondered about is; How can a Jedi not feel anger in the heat of battle? Especially when fellow Jedi fall in front of him? I think you can clearly see Obi-Wan trying to control his emotions after Qui-Gon is struck down. It's only natural to feel SOME emotion after witnessing something like that.

[Hart Kenobi]

The problem is that most of the only examples we had were with Luke Skywalker. Luke wasn't really a true Jedi until AFTER the ordeal. I think before the Second Death Star was destroyed, he was neither Jedi nor Sith. He used elements from both.