DC Discussion Thread

[Green Arrow]

Since the Canon Characters thread is long, and has a slightly inappropriate thread icon (;)), I figured I would start another! Also, I wanted to toss out a couple of thoughts / topics for us to chew over.

As and when we finalise stuff and raise new talking points and issues, I'll edit them into this first post so we can keep track of what we're doing and what we've decided. :)

* * *

Timeline

We often seem to trip over timelines in our roleplaying. In Star Wars we aren't always sure what year it is; in X-Men it's still three or four years ago; and when we initially discussed DC, we had a lot of trouble working out how old Batman was, how long certain vigilante's had been active, and things like that. However, for the most part comics don't worry about that sort of thing: if they did, Bruce Wayne wouldn't be chasing criminals, he'd be chasing kids off his lawn with a walking stick.

Maybe we could take our cue from that, and try to avoid getting too specific about numbers? Batman has been Batman for "a few years"; Bruce Wayne is "in his thirties"; Carter Hall was a superhero "a few decades ago"; that sort of thing. The more vague and fluid we keep things, the easier it will be to squidge things into people's backstories.

Also, both Batman and Green Arrow have critically acclaimed graphic novels called Year One. Perhaps we could have all of our current threads in the spring of "Year One", and just ease our way through the seasons and years as and when the story demands that we do, rather than trying to keep pace with the real world or anything like that.

* * *

Non Player Characters

When we initially discussed this setting, we talked about how we wanted characters who interact with lots of people - Commissioner Gordon, Alfred, and so on - to be NPCs, so that anyone can write them.

Are there any other characters we want to reserve in this sort of way: perhaps an NPC reporter (Vicki Vale?), police detective (Harvey Bullock?), etc? It would probably be useful to agree upon some basic details for all of these NPCs, to make sure we are all portraying them consistently and so on.

* * *

The Rest of the World/Universe

At the moment, our focus is squarely on Gotham. Keeping things confined to one city is a great idea, and the majority of characters can be ported across to Gotham without too much difficulty: it's no different than the approach taken by TV shows like Arrow and Smallville.

However, there are a few bits and pieces from the rest of the world that we might want to think about, talk about, establish, etc. For example, if we want to separate ourselves from the real world, do we want to agree upon an (NPC?) character to be the President of the United States? Perhaps Lex Luthor would be a good choice, particularly since there is no Superman to get in his way?

* * *

The Golden Age

In the backstories for some characters, it's established that there has been a previous generation of superheroes. Dinah Hall (Black Canary) is the daughter of the golden age Black Canary and Green Arrow, and she was adopted and raised by Carter Hall, the golden age Hawkman. Kendra Saunders is a police detective, who is the reincarnation of the golden age Hawkwoman.

In order to explain why there aren't more costumed superheroes running about the place, we could borrow some ideas from Watchmen and The Incredibles. Perhaps there was a Justice Society (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Justice_Society_of_America) of superheroes a few decades ago, and perhaps there was some sort of incident / accident that caused the government to outlaw superheroes. The Department of Extranormal Operations (DEO) might have been created to enforce that ban, which is why they're so focused on unmasking vigilantes. They might also be a little bit like the superhero relocation program from The Incredibles: keeping tabs on those with superpowers, and covering up any power-related accidents.

* * *

Two Girls, One Cup

Or rather: two heroes, one superhero name. Both Oliver Queen and Jason Todd have previously gone by "Robin". Oliver Queen and Larry Lance (Black Canary's father) have gone by "Green Arrow". The modern Flash and Blue Beetle have golden age characters as well as having successors; at least two people have gone by The Question; several people have been known as Clayface; and there are dozens of other characters that people could easily want to roleplay where their alias / code name is the same.

That may not seem like a problem at first, but it could be if we start doing flashbacks to fill in periods of backstory. Does anyone have any suggestions on how to share an alias without sharing an account?

[Michael Holt]

Well, I would say that if a person wants their person to be the first with that name then that's perfectly allowed. Just ignore that there were previous versions in the comics. This isn't the comics.

[Victor Sage]

That isn't quite what I meant. I'm talking more about situations where perhaps I want to go back and do some flashback stuff that features the original Green Arrow. I can't do those posts using the "Green Arrow" account, because the avatar would be wrong.

Similarly, I'm writing Barry Allen / The Flash, but he has both a golden age predecessor (Jay Garrick) and a successor (Wally West), who both use the name The Flash. The characters have all worked together, and have all been active concurrently using that name. If someone wants to play Jay Garrick for flashbacks, or wants to play a grown-up version of Wally West (ie. not "Kid Flash"), are there any ways they could share the name?

Also, what happens if someone decides they want to play Renee Montoya: the second person to use the name The Question? Assuming I was cool with them taking over (which I would be), would I have to surrender the "The Question" account for them to use? If they change the avatar of that account to fit Renee Montoya (a woman), how do we stop that being confusing when people read earlier posts that were written by the male version of The Question?

It's less a question of "how do we stop people stealing names?", and more a question of "how do we share names?".

[Michael Holt]

Oh, well then register a Golden Age Green Arrow ...?

[Victor Sage]

"Golden Age X" gets tricky because of length, unfortunately.

I also considered "The X", and the name followed by some sort of Roman numeral thing, but none of those options are 100% foolproof: there are going to be hero names that don't work with "The" at the front, what happens if we've used numerals but then add someone in between (Flash II.5?)... etc.

Figured I'd toss the topic in here for discussion, just in case anyone has a stroke of genius on the subject.

[Michael Holt]

...are you trying to say I am not a genius????

[Victor Sage]

No, but I am saying you haven't stroked one. ;)

[Michael Holt]

Well, I never!

Good day, sir! I say, good DAY!

[Matt Hagen]

I think it's safe to say that any passing of the torch between two RPers would have to be worked out by the two RPers, and it would be up to them to negotiate the particulars. If, for instance, someone were to replace Victor Sage as The Question, you'd probably work it into an in-universe storyline, and the actual passing of the name would be a major plot event. Each situation would be unique enough to merit its own solution.

The other possibility, of course, is that someone gives up a character, and someone else is interested in playing their own version of the character (or a later iteration). That, too, would have to be negotiated; I'm not sure we can really create policy for that kind of situation in a vacuum beyond just mentioning the possibility.

Personally, I think it would be ideal for the current incarnation to hold the name and for the old version to become "The Question I," or something like that. In other cases, there are successors who have distinct variations on the old name, like Red Robin.

[Barbara Nolan]

Green Arrow, mk. 1

[Victor Sage]

A couple of characters have worked their way into threads in a semi-NPC capacity.

Captain Maggie Sawyer was written as the head of the Major Crimes Unit (MCU). Since we already have two detectives and a few DEO agents who are likely to need to use her for briefings / orders / etc, would anyone object to her being set aside as an NPC from henceforth?

Vicki Vale is a reporter from the Gotham Gazette. Aside from being a well-known name, there's nothing particularly remarkable about her. Andrew has already made use of her to write articles, and I can see her being useful in that capacity moving forward. Any problems with making her an official NPC?


Normally we don't do image claims when an account doesn't exist, but would it be worth making an exception in these cases? Knowing that our Commissioner Gordon looks like Gary Oldman makes it much easier to write descriptions of and interactions with him: without that, he could look like anything from this (http://thebatmanuniverse.net/image/Movie/News/02-Animated/13-Batman-Year%20One/Screenshots/BYO-53.jpg) to this (http://images1.wikia.nocookie.net/batman/images/a/a8/Pat-hingle-commissioner-gordon-1.jpg) to this (http://images.wikia.com/marvel_dc/images/f/fe/Commissioner_Gordon_%28Batman_1966_TV_Series%29_00 1.jpg).

If we find ourselves in the position where Gary Oldman (or whoever) is exactly the right choice for a particular character, we can certainly revisit things... but these aren't characters who don't have accounts because they aren't important enough: they're characters who are too important to be written by just one person. It might make life easier.

[Michael Holt]

Regarding Muderball - it's open so pretty much anything goes. If you aren't part of the DEO perhaps jumping in now before he gets to work would be a good idea. Or whatever. Just wanting to stretch the legs (too soon?) of this character. :)

[Dasquian Belargic]

Maggie is (very) important to Batwoman, potentially, so probably best to leave her as NPC for now.

[Green Arrow]

Maggie is (very) important to Batwoman.

:love

I will update the character list accordingly.

Given the ties between Huntress and Franco Bertinelli, he'll presumably need to be an NPC as well?

[Dasquian Belargic]

I'm assuming that mom and pop Bertinelli are already dead ^_^;

[Victor Sage]

Does that mean the whole Bertinelli family / organisation is out of action, or just that something else is running it? I referred to "Bertinelli territory" in a post I think, but I can change that if needs be.

[Dasquian Belargic]

I'm going with the story that Mandagora, after murdering Helena's parents, is in charge of what was formerly Bertinelli territory. So the 'family' isn't disbanded or out of action per say, it's just operating under a different name / leader.

[Captain Untouchable]

Is that the animated version (http://dc.wikia.com/wiki/Steve_Mandragora_%28DCAU%29) of the character, who is based on the comic book character and Intergang member Tobias Whale (http://dc.wikia.com/wiki/Tobias_Whale), or is that the named but not important enough to have a wiki page Sicilian gangster Stephano Mandragora?

[Dasquian Belargic]

http://www.comicvine.com/mandragora/29-55002/

^ This dude? Or some incarnation of him. Not exactly the same, since you know.. we're doing a fair bit of tweaking with origins and all. I will write something up for Helena at some point that includes who he is, I guess.

[Captain Untouchable]

Stefano Mandragora was originally depicted as an old white haired man who looked like Christopher Walken.
Christopher Walken killed your parents? :ohno

[The Gambler]

As part of Harley's backstory, the Joker is dead.

We also talked about the idea that some of the Batman Begins / The Dark Knight events may have happened, though maybe with some tweaks: can we also assume that Ra's al Ghul, Harvey Dent, and Sal Maroni are also dead?

I'm going to add a category on the character list for people that are dead, for reference and what-not.

[Lilaena De'Ville]

It was brought to my attention that we have a few RPers who didn't participate in the initial planning/backstory hashing out that took place two years ago, and having a primer, or a DC for Dummies, posted with relevant information in it would be helpful.

Such as:

Events of Batman Begins and The Dark Knight took place a few years ago. The Joker is dead. Superman doesn't exist. Batman is about 34ish, but don't look too closely at the timeline because he's had a few Robinses since TDK. The League of Shadows still exists (I'm not sure on what form it's taking). In BB, the Scarecrow didn't do what he did in the movie, in fact it was Mr. Arkham of the asylum who released the fear gas, etc (leaving the Scarecrow as an undiscovered baddie at this point).

[Captain Untouchable]

It was brought to my attention that we have a few RPers who didn't participate in the initial planning/backstory hashing out that took place two years ago, and having a primer, or a DC for Dummies, posted with relevant information in it would be helpful.

Bonus points for catchy name suggestion!

[Lilaena De'Ville]

;) I do my best.

Is there stuff that should be added?

[Dasquian Belargic]

This sounds like prime wiki material ;)

[Enedra Myrrhe]

A wiki?! My god! *faints*




Also, a brilliant idea. *nod* I really would love a reference I can use easily as I'm slowly wading into DC characters. Also, I've only seen the first Christian Bale/Batman movie...so I'm a bit behind >_<

[Lilaena De'Ville]

Well, there IS stuff in the wiki. Just not this in particular.

Watch the movie, it is so good. :)

[Dasquian Belargic]

If you're not already familiar with certain DC characters, I'd say... don't look them up. Simply because we are tweaking origin stories, or jumping into peoples lives at points before they... develop in certain ways. Reading a DC Universe wiki would be like reading spoilers about how certain characters might develop, or just confusing yourself when they develop in a different way.

Just IMO anyway!

[Guy Gardner]

A wiki is all well and good, but because there will be so many articles, critical information may be scattered. I do think that a central thread here with some baseline information would be invaluable.

I wasn't here when this was discussed the first time around, and I'd like to know what baseline we're working around. That way I know what I can be free to tweak/change/whatever with my characters and plotlines and still be adherent to the main core of the premise.

[Ray Palmer]

I'll have to grab a copy to watch, then, Holly :)

Jenny, already made the mistake of wading through the DC wiki and giving myself a headache ten times over. My characters alone are messing with my brain...I'm no longer allowed to read anymore DC wiki >_< I swear I'm not going to read it again!

I'm with Guy...one thread here with some of the more salient points would be a great reference. *nod nod*

And brownie points to Holly for the DC for Dummies name :D

[Captain Untouchable]

What if we ditch the normal wiki approach entirely, and have a slightly more comprehensive DC for Dummies resource instead?

Instead of a dozen pages describing each vigilante / hero team and each of it's members separately, we could have one page that describes all of them. Everything is so closely knit in this setting that you need to understand everything in context anyway: there's no point just reading about Black Canary, because in order to understand her you need to look at her in the context of her relationship to Carter Hall, to Green Arrow, to her parents (and other Justice Society members), and eventually in context with other Birds of Prey members.

It would be a lot easier if all of that information was on as few pages as possible. Maybe one page for all of the Hero/Vigilante stuff; one for all of the Criminal/Villain stuff; one for all of the Police/DEO/Government stuff; one for Civilian (Wayne Enterprises, the University, the Newspapers, etc) stuff; etc.

Some people would end up in two places - Kendra Saunders for example would be on the Police/DEO page, and the Hero/Vigilante page... but since one is talking about her as Detective Kendra Saunders and the other would talk about her as Hawkgirl, it's effectively describing two different persona and sets of relationships anyway, so that kind of makes sense.

[Lilaena De'Ville]

lol what happened to your post, Jace ;)

I think what we're talking about is sort of the history of our setting, or the foundation for a better term? What characters are and who's who is something else. Probably also needed, but not quite what I was talking about.

[Dasquian Belargic]

Something like the info we put together for http://sw-fans.net/wiki/index.php/Reset would make sense I guess? Concise but informative enough that anyone wanting to hop into the setting should have a decent grasp of what they're getting themselves into.

[Lilaena De'Ville]

Yes, that exactly. :)

[Captain Untouchable]

lol what happened to your post, Jace ;)

It took me so long to phrase it right that half a dozen extra posts magically appeared, so I had to edit it. :uhoh


I think what we're talking about is sort of the history of our setting, or the foundation for a better term? What characters are and who's who is something else. Probably also needed, but not quite what I was talking about.

I know that's not what you were suggesting: but I think it would make sense if we just adopted that approach across the board. If we're going to have a concise "this is what you need to know so you can start writing" introduction, why not have that same concise approach to everything?

You don't just need to know the history/timeline stuff in order to get started, you need to have an idea of who you're going to be interacting with and what-not, too.

[Lyta Trevor]

In some versions of the comics, this character is the daughter of Wonder Woman. I'd like to write her as such, but I don't want to mess with people's notions of Wonder Woman and her history as it pertains to what we're doing here on 'Fans.

If someone were to eventually come along and want to play Wonder Woman, then I'd love to be able to explore the mother-daughter dynamic with them.

[Mu Satach]

In some versions of the comics, this character is the daughter of Wonder Woman. I'd like to write her as such, but I don't want to mess with people's notions of Wonder Woman and her history as it pertains to what we're doing here on 'Fans.

If someone were to eventually come along and want to play Wonder Woman, then I'd love to be able to explore the mother-daughter dynamic with them.

I here by claim Wonder Woman/Diana Prince since from everything I've read no one has grabbed her yet.

That is all.

[Lyta Trevor]

Mom! :D

I would totally tackle you, but the last time I tried that we kind of broke the house...

[Diana Prince]

No using superpowers in the house young lady! :p

;)

[Captain Untouchable]

No using superpowers in the house young lady!



Cobie Smulders as Wonder Woman? :love

I could kiss you, were it not extremely likely that you'd kill me for being so brazen and disrespectful of your Princesslyness. ;)

[Barbara Nolan]

Ravens and Writing Desk is open to another character to jump in at this point. Surprise me!

[Barbara Nolan]

Pleeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeease??

[Huntress]

Oh hey Babs.

[Barbara Nolan]

Hey Huntress. :wave