Dark Empire Plots?

[Park Kraken]

Certainly not now, not with the amount we have on our RPing plates, but I'm curious as to who here would eventually be interested in incorporating some of the historical happenings of the Dark Empire series into our own Fans version of the current SW Universe.

The way I would see it going down is the Reborn Emperor calling Grand Admirals and other loyalists into the Deep Core along with a sizeable armada. He then launches it at both the current Empire and the Rebel Alliance, trying to conquer worlds from the Deep Core outwards.

[Reshmar]

The Empire and Alliance working together sounds interesting. Many of the Imperial commanders Loyal to the Emperor are gone now.

If he has been collecting Imperial Power at Byss how did the Empire and Inquisitorius not know about it? Just An Idea Kalist might be a better place for him to have been hiding. The Empire took hundreds of thousands there for slave labor. Who's to say they did not build a secret underground Emperor hideaway there, and besides the imperial prison, there is not much Imperial presence there.

Lets just say this has some interest. What were you thinking as far as how it would go down?

[Orenth]

I have two big reservations with this. The first is fairly straight forward: the Palpatine is a canon character, and we don't really use those. We made a very deliberate choice to not include them, and this would go against that: not to mention the fact that it feels like a cop-out to recycle a character instead of using our own creativity to come up with something original.

My second reservation is that this has been done before. Obviously, Dark Crisis has been done before: but we've also got a number of darksiders who are using secret machinations and secret war assets for political gain. General Dan and s'Ilancy are using theirs to manipulate the Rebel Alliance. Salem Ave is using his to manipulate the thrones of Hapes and Onderon. Tear is using his to carve out a little empire for himself with the Independents.

What would a Dark Crisis storyline bring to the table that we don't already have, or can't introduce with the characters and storylines already on the go?

[Reshmar]

I was more interested in the Imperials and Alliance having to work together for some reason. I agree with the Canon character thing for the most part. Even if anything came of this it would be way off. Duro and Corellia will keep us busy for along time. I actually had some ideas of how something like this could tie into Duro and Corellia. But I have alot of ideas, most are a bit out there.

[Park Kraken]

True enough. Plus it would be a big scope project involving a lot of characters or rather impacting them, probably best to put this on the backburner until we run out of ideas.

Reshmar, I have a better idea for a little cooperation thread. Shortly after Endor Grand Admiral Il Raz went mad and started attacking Outer Rim worlds at will before plunging his ISD flagship into the heart of the Denarii Nova. If we say that didn't happen until about now or sometime soon, then we could use that as a focal point for our thread. Although I think we should upgrade his flagship, maybe give him a Mandator III along with a squadron of Imperial-II Frigates for a screen. Just depends on whether we want to do a Bakura sized level of cooperation or a Solo/Rogriss vs Zsinj sized level event.

[Reshmar]

I like the idea. A rouge with a Mandator III would be a good reason the Empire and Alliance play nice for awhile. After Duro Resh will be taking command of 1st fleet. This would be something 1st fleet would deal with if made aware.

[Captain Untouchable]

If we were to do something cooperative, it might make sense to do it in the "south" of the galaxy. There are a lot of Rebel holdings there, including the 4th Fleet; it's also where Bespin is, so we've got a lot of potential players from several factions.

I don't have Wookieepedia handy, but maybe there's a way to factor in the Eriadu Authority or something along those lines? That way, it potentially plays in to the wake of Sullust / etc political arc for the Alliance, and the Baroness Tagge / Cloud City arc for the Empire.

Also, a while a go (like, years ago) we floated the idea of a superweapon arc. Drawing on Dark Crisis, perhaps we could work that in: use this opportunity to debut the Eclipse SSD, or something like that?

[Reshmar]

While not having a super weapon A Mandator Mk III is every bit a match for an Executor Class Super Star Destroyer. I think only 3 were ever made and they would have been set up as a defense for a major shipyard. Last night when I was thinking about this Eriadu also came to mind. I was thinking to make this make sense it would have to be based around a shipyard planet. I thought of Yaga Minor, Ord Trasi and Bilbringi in the north, Lianna out to the east, and Eriadu and Rothana to the south. Any of these could have A Mandator Mk III defending it. If someone could get enough support they could work their way into commanding it and then take it over, have no problem blasting any other defese out of space, and do as they wanted. I do not see the need for Something as powerful as a Sovereign or Executor falling into the hands of any rouge faction. It would be allot more difficult to actually gain command of one of these. And if we even have one in our timeline more than likely it is not finished and sitting at the Core Worlds shipyards near Byss.

Eriadu for sure would qualify for having one in orbit. It is a Fortress world and a Major Ship Producing planet. It is all the Empire really has left in the outer rim south. Losing the defense fleet to a rouge would be bad for the empire. They would for sure see that the ship is hunter down.

To bring the Alliance in I think first they would have to hear about what happened then the Rouge would have to commit some sort of aggressive move against the alliance.

[Park Kraken]

There were quite a few Mandator-III's built by this time. Three of them formed the mainstay of the KDY's Defense Force, while at least two others served in the Azure Hammer Command Oversector Fleet (Coruscant Oversector). So yeah, at least one would be present most likely at Eiradu.

[Captain Untouchable]

I'm not sure that a Mandator is "enough".

Don't get me wrong: I know the Mandator is a very formidable ship... it's just not shit-your-pants formidable. If the Empire goes up against this Warlord and loses, that's not really a big deal: they'll just rally some more ships and try again.

It's worth remembering that many of the cooperation stories in the Expanded Universe involved the Imperial Remnant and the New Republic: our Galactic Empire is considerably more stable, and our Rebel Alliance only has a dozen worlds or so to it's name. Even at Bakura, the two factions were equals: but that isn't the case here. There aren't dozens of Warlords: this separatist of ours is one of a handful, and so he's likely to get the Empire's full attention... especially if he's at Eriadu, what with our Empress being a Tarkin and all.

In order to make it seem plausible that the Empire would need / want / seek out the Alliance's aid, I think we need to give him more of an edge than just "a very formidable ship". We need a guy who is going to catch the Empire completely off guard... do something that is going to make them desperate. Most of the big threats and team-up inspiring enemies of the EU had that. The Reborn Emperor had his Eclipses and such. Zsinj not only had the Iron Fist, he had that whole thing with the cloaking device / second SSD / etc plan.

An Eclipse was just an example off the top of my head. Even so, we don't necessarily have to use the exact same origin story as the novels. What if our Warlord has been skimming funds from the Eriadu defense budget for years, and diverting them to a special project? What if he is responsible for designing / building the first Eclipse, and at the end of this arc the Empire gets their hands on the blueprints and starts to build their own? It's certainly not the only option either - Sun Crushers, Darksabers, Krytos Viruses, some Separatist relic from the Clone Wars; all sorts. I'm sure that Byss and the Maw aren't the only places in the galaxy that are capable of developing some sort of terrifying weapon in secret.

[Reshmar]

This is not a normal Mandator. The Mk III has over 5,000 Turbolaser batteries. Its only weakness is fighter capacity. The only ship to ever survive engaging one is the SSD Whelm. A massive fighter assault took down the Aculeus but only because they like all other ships that big are weak against mass fighter attacks. That is where the Alliance excels. The Imperials know this.

On the other hand ships like the Eclipse and Eclipse II (aka Sovereign) are weak against Fleets more so than Mandators and Executors.

The Eclipse only has 500 Turboolaser batteries, the super weapon recharge time is way too long, and the one being built at the time of Endor would be at Byss. It fars far better against fighters than the Mandator Mk III but against a combined fighter capital ship battle it would not last long.

The 4 Sovereign Class ships like the eclipse are being built at Byss. The only one ever to be finished became the Eclipse II in the canon storyline. While it was better equipped to handle capital ships with 500 heavy and 500 turbolaser batteries that is still a far cry from the Executors 2000 heavy and 2000 turbolaser and the Mandators Mk III's 3000 Heavy Turbolaser Batteries and 2000 Turbolaser batteries.

The only reason a SSD it stronger than a Mandator III is because it has better shielding and fighters. The Mandator III out guns it badly.

A single Mandator II took on 1,000 Recusant destroyers and won. A single Mandator Mk III could take on half a Imperial Oversector fleet minus the SSD or the entire alliance navy and win.

5000 turbolasers will do just about the same thing to a planet that the superlaser from the eclipse can. Just not in one big shot, in 5,000 little ones.

[Captain Untouchable]

Quoted for emphasis:


An Eclipse was just an example off the top of my head. ... It's certainly not the only option either.

I still don't think a Mandator is enough, especially if "There were quite a few Mandator-III's built by this time."

Whether the Alliance would be better at taking the ship down or not seems like a moot point, since the Mandator just doesn't seem like a big enough threat for the Empire to want to work with the Rebels. The Empire has a heck of a lot to lose here: if nothing else, think of how getting help from the Alliance - people they've condemned as separatists, traitors, and terrorists - would look to the public. Joe Imperial isn't going to understand that the only way to defeat a Mandator III is to go at it with starfighters... and even if he does, he's probably going to question why the Empire's pilots weren't good enough.

It gets even more embarrassing for the Empire - and the Empress in particular - if Eriadu is at the centre of all this. She can't even manage to protect her homeworld without needing help from the terrorists: or at least, that's how it's going to seem. Given that the Empire thinks of Stormtroopers and TIE Pilots as pretty much disposable cannon fodder, they're more likely to just load up as many Escort Carriers as they can and throw TIEs at the Mandator until they eventually win. A large cost of life would be preferable to a large cost in reputation, for a totalitarian regime like the Empire.

That's why to me, the "superweapon" hook seems so important. We can't just have an enemy who is a threat because he has superior firepower: he needs to have a massive, unfair advantage. He needs to represent a significant enough danger to the Empire for them to suck it up and agree to work with the Rebels: surely anything else would be out of character?

We could probably get away with something like the hunt for Zsinj, where the cooperation was a gentleman's agreement between the two field commanders... but that would only work if this guy was a threat for one thread, which seems like a massive waste of plot potential.

[Park Kraken]

My idea was for him to go around not only with a Mandator Mk III but also with a squadron of 12 Imperial-II Frigates as well for an escort. The frigates themselves aren't too powerful, but each one carriers one wing of 72 TIE Fighters. That would give him a powerful screen to deal with the only significant threat to his capital ship.

As far as Superweapons go, one of three possibilities come to mind in this time frame; A Eclipse/Sovereign class SSD, a World Devastator(s), or a Seperatist Superweapon hidden away in the Unknown Regions somewhere (possibly having been worked on by remnants during this time period) that the Grand Admiral stumbles across and decides to use in setting himself up as a Warlord with both Alliance and Imperial holdings.

[Reshmar]

OK lets say he gets his hands on the Eclipse. Or something like it. or one of the Sovereigns. My main concern is people writing the superweapon. What worlds are we going to attack? perhaps the southern content of Eriadu? Sluis Van? A super weapon is only good if it gets demonstrated. The Empire has to know the rouge will use it because he has.


Generally the Eclipse had 2 Allegiance Battlecruisers escorting it. The old Imperial -II frigates arnt really needed since the Eclipse has 58 Squadrons of fighters onboard. The heavy firepower of the 2 Allegeance Battlecruisers would work better as escort with the Eclipse. that would take care of it being weak against capital ship attack while 700 fighters onboard the Eclipse would be nearly enough for most tasks. Also instead of the 2 Allegiance maybe 2 Imperial MK III's would work. They have the firepower of an allegiance and the fighter capacity for support.

[Captain Untouchable]

A super weapon is only good if it gets demonstrated.

That depends entirely on the superweapon.

The main advantage to an Eclipse or a Sovereign (or an alternative superweapon a la Tarkin or Darksaber) is that we'd be dealing with a superlaser. The galaxy has already seen a superlaser demonstrated: no one is going to quickly forget what happened at Endor. The Alliance went after the Death Star II before it was completed because they already knew what it was capable of, and while the superlaser on an Eclipse/Sovereign might be less powerful than the Death Star, it's considerably more mobile.

Effectively then, the demonstration wouldn't need to be "this is a superlaser, and this is what it can do". All our Warlord needs to demonstrate is that he has a superlaser and that it works: he can leave the Alliance and the Empire to run the calculations and work out just how destructive it would be. The superweapon wouldn't necessarily ever have to be used against a planet.

Just tossing out ideas here -

Lets assume that our Warlord has a Sovereign (slightly smaller), and is based at Eriadu. Having declared that the Seswenna sector is no longer part of the Empire (the "Eriadu Authority", or whatever we decide to call it), he invites the Alliance to send a delegation to negotiate some sort of treaty / alliance. Knowing that this would be very bad for them in the long run, the Empire sends a fleet of ships to Eriadu: to attack the summit and prevent such a treaty: probably led by a Super Star Destroyer of some description. It all turns out to be a ruse: the Warlord lured both the Alliance and the Empire there so that he could demonstrate his new superweapon, which he uses to destroy the Imperial flagship. Panic and retreating ensues.

The Alliance only has three worlds on the immediate area: Sullust, Clak'dor, and Sluis Van. There's no need for him to conquer those worlds: they're not really a threat to him, and it's possible that fear alone will be enough. Instead, he concentrates on Imperial holdings in neighbouring sectors: Praesitlyn, Belsavis, Elrood, and Utapau leap out as places where battles might be fought. Other worlds might align themselves with the Warlord out of simple fear: that one demonstration would likely snowball his forces somewhat, letting him spread his influence over several sectors.

The fact that he isn't targeting the Alliance provides an added reason for the Empire to want their help. We've already established that Starfighter Corps HQ is on Sullust; and Sluis Van and/or Clak'dor could be used to stage a joint Imperial / Alliance fleet attack. While the Warlord's forces are formidable, the Sovereign is the main reason that people are being scared into following him: take that out, and you've weakened him enough for the Empire to finish the job.

Of course, the region will be disrupted for a long time afterwards. Moving forwards, we could easily have an ongoing competition between the Alliance and the Empire to see who is going to win the loyalty of various worlds the Warlord conquered. Will Eriadu return to the Empire, or will the fact that they were enslaved by an Imperial be enough to push them into the arms of the Alliance? There are homeworlds of several non-human races in the mix there as well. Some of it might be resolved by fleet battles, or ground battles; other cases might be resolved by diplomacy. Either way, it's sure to stir up a whole heap of roleplaying opportunities for fleeters and roleplayers on both sides.


Something like that has a buttload of potential, and would keep us occupied for a good long while once we've got Duro out of the way. Whatever we end up doing, I'd personally like to see something that will give us that kind of game-changing new set of possibilities, rather than just being a flash in the pan.

[Park Kraken]

Once Duro and 2nd Duro was out of the way I was planning to use TF45 to liberate the Atravis Sector surrounding Mustafar. This campaign could tie in as well since there's a Repair Depot (can't remember the name right off hand) in the Sector that was I planning to be the final battle place that has the only drydock in the Outer-Rim capable of servicing a Super-type Star Destroyer.

Once the campaign is finished TF45 could surge reinforcements into the area to either finish off the Sovereign (call her Empire Eternal maybe?) or for the fight against the Imperials for control of the territory afterwards.

[Reshmar]

OK makes sense. SO if this rouge proclaims the Entire Seswenna sector independent, that would ruffle alot of Imperial feathers. Losing Averam and Eraidu would mean the end of the Empire in the Southern Outer Rim. Sure they would have holdings but none with anything bigger than a deepdock shipyard. so no servicing anything bigger than a Vic.

I like the idea and the possibilities, but I think we should worry about the Duro thing first. If after Duro this still has interest then we can revisit it.

As far as the Seswanna flipping to the Alliance side, That would give the Alliance the linch pin it needs to call itself a galactic power. It would control the outer rim from Mustafar to Calamari more or less. Are we sure we want the alliance in a position where it is that powerful? Are we ready for a "New Republic"?

[Captain Untouchable]

Just because the Alliance controls one or two planets in the Seswenna Sector doesn't mean they control the entire Sector. Eriadu might become Alliance, but Seswenna and Adras itself might not. The Shistavanen homeworld (Uvena) might decide to join the Alliance, but Parwa might want to remain independent. There are fifteen named/inhabited systems in Seswenna alone: that doesn't even begin to factor in neighbouring sectors like Brema, Sluis, Mayagil, and so on. Just because one world goes Alliance doesn't mean the whole sector does.

Also, I think you're overestimating the amount of galactic control that the Alliance has. We have a small pocket of control on the Rimma Trade Route (Brema/etc), but that's it. The rest of the Outer Rim - literally dozens of sectors - are largely under Imperial control. I don't think this would necessarily elevate the Alliance to "New Republic" status, though it's a first step, perhaps. Thus far, Sullust and Sluis Van have been stand alone systems... all this would do is combine those two locations into more of a "blob", like what we have at Bothawui and Calamari.

We'd still be considerably smaller than Hutt Space; we'd barely even be a match for the "Alliance of Free Planets", which was the New Republic's direct precursor.