Imperial Leadership

[Captain Untouchable]

I've had a few situations lately where I've not been entirely sure who my characters answer to, if there are political bigwigs that I should be name-dropping, and that sort of thing. We briefly touched on this a little while ago, but nothing really came out of this.

An example for me personally relates to the Rebels conquering Duro. My character (Delgado Xaanan) is the Moff of the Corellian Sector which, under Imperial rule, includes Duro. For me, it would be useful to know which members of the Imperial government he had to speak to / report to after this, even if it's just a case of name-dropping them and having meetings occur off camera.

There's also been a bit of a question mark pop up with fleeting things regarding Grand Admirals, and the idea that they "don't exist" any more; or at least, don't exist in the same form. If the Grand Admirals aren't running things any longer, then who is?

There are other characters who might benefit from straightening this out. Imperial Fleeters could possibly benefit from there being a Reshmar style military leader who can take part in briefings and things. It might help to know if there are any politicians who have an interest in or influence over Sanya Tagge on Bespin. We been talking a lot about the likes of Onderon, Hapes, and the Cizerack having dealings with the Rebel Alliance, but it might be beneficial to see some Imperial activity on that front from someone appropriate.

*

We already have a couple of "Ministers of" characters. I have a Minister of the Interior (ie. Home Secretary / Secretary of State), and I believe Tio had a Minister of Commerce. One answer might be that Moffs report to the Minister of the Interior. There might also be a Minister of Defense who looks after the military. There might be a Minister of the Exterior who looks after foreign intelligence (ie. Imperial Intelligence) and negotiations with the Hutts, Cizerack, etc. Since one of the biggest "exterior" problems is the Rebel Alliance, it might be that the Minister of the Exterior also responsible for defense (one politician, rather than two).

Another option would be to have some sort of Darth Vader style enforcer. Rather than having a position of authority, they'd derive their authority by the mere fact that they're representing the Empress. There were some plans a little while back for a group of Imperial Knights, who would be an Imperial version of what the Jedi Order was to the Republic... a non-sneaky version of the Inquisitors, if you will. Perhaps the two ideas could be blurred together in some way: rather than one Vader, there'd potentially be an entire order of Vaders running things and intimidating people on the Empress' behalf.

It'd also help to straighten out what's going on in terms of Oversectors and Grand Moffs. The Grand Moff of the Corellian Oversector is due to die in a thread... will they be replaced, or are we just going to let them all slowly die off or retire? The same question could be asked of the Grand Admirals: are we still going to have ten of these commanding the Imperial Navy, or are we going to stop promoting people to the rank, and slowly let it die out?

[Park Kraken]

An example for me personally relates to the Rebels conquering Duro. My character (Delgado Xaanan) is the Moff of the Corellian Sector which, under Imperial rule, includes Duro. For me, it would be useful to know which members of the Imperial government he had to speak to / report to after this, even if it's just a case of name-dropping them and having meetings occur off camera.

There's also been a bit of a question mark pop up with fleeting things regarding Grand Admirals, and the idea that they "don't exist" any more; or at least, don't exist in the same form. If the Grand Admirals aren't running things any longer, then who is?

The Moff would report to the Grand Moff for Administrative duties and probably to Imperial High Command on Coruscant concerning any military details.

Grand Admirals can't be played currently by anybody, except for Grand Admiral Desaria of course. The numbers are currently thinned, with a number of them having either died at Endor or been hunted down and executed for trying to go rogue. Grand Admirals Grunger and Zsinj fall into this latter category. Currently Grand Admiral Pitta is the most senior naval officer of the Corellian Oversector. Grand Admiral Thrawn is still galivanting around in the Unknown Regions.


Another option would be to have some sort of Darth Vader style enforcer. Rather than having a position of authority, they'd derive their authority by the mere fact that they're representing the Empress. There were some plans a little while back for a group of Imperial Knights, who would be an Imperial version of what the Jedi Order was to the Republic... a non-sneaky version of the Inquisitors, if you will. Perhaps the two ideas could be blurred together in some way: rather than one Vader, there'd potentially be an entire order of Vaders running things and intimidating people on the Empress' behalf.

It would probably be easiest to do that by creating a sub-branch of the Inquisitorate, perhaps Valten strikes a deal with the Sith for some Dark Side Adepts?


It'd also help to straighten out what's going on in terms of Oversectors and Grand Moffs. The Grand Moff of the Corellian Oversector is due to die in a thread... will they be replaced, or are we just going to let them all slowly die off or retire? The same question could be asked of the Grand Admirals: are we still going to have ten of these commanding the Imperial Navy, or are we going to stop promoting people to the rank, and slowly let it die out?

The Grand Moffs would be replaced, by a Moff appointed from a Sector within the Oversector, with the Moff's position being replaced by a Governor of a planet within the Sector, and so forth.

I think the Grand Admirals should be kept around, but until someone works their way up to the position, we should probably keep them filled by historical EU Imperial characters that might still be around. Also, as Imperial territory shrinks, the numbers overall should be reduced. Right now instead of having 12 Grand Admirals, I think 8-10 would be sufficent.

[Reshmar]

Sorry, This answers a question I just ask in the other thread. I think an NPC Grand Admiral Peitta dying in battle is a glorious idea. As for Thrawn, He is alive out in the unknown regions but the hand of Thrawn is not as powerful as it was EU. The Chiss Senate ordered it attacked back before Lash visited the Known regions.

[Captain Untouchable]

It would probably be easiest to do that by creating a sub-branch of the Inquisitorate, perhaps Valten strikes a deal with the Sith for some Dark Side Adepts?

Since the idea of the Imperial Knights was the brainchild of Vince, and is something he's been working on for quite some time, I'm not really qualified to comment. However, I think that the whole point of the idea was for them not to be members of the Inquisitorate, in order to keep the Inquisitors from having too much influence over the military.


The Moff would report to the Grand Moff for Administrative duties and probably to Imperial High Command on Coruscant concerning any military details.

The Grand Moffs would be replaced, by a Moff appointed from a Sector within the Oversector, with the Moff's position being replaced by a Governor of a planet within the Sector, and so forth.

While that's certainly the way that the EU would have done it, that doesn't necessarily mean it's the smartest way to run things on a roleplaying forum.

Most of the time, the interesting systems are confined to just one Sector. There aren't any situations currently roleplayed - or indeed, any situations interesting enough to be roleplayed - where two Moff characters report into the same Grand Moff. This means that for every Moff character we have, there needs to be a separate Grand Moff character for them to report into. This does not seem like a fairly efficient way of doing things.

If we were to deviate from canon however, we might be able to find an alternative that makes more sense for roleplaying. Maybe all we need to do is establish who the Grand Moffs report into, and have that superior approach Moffs directly. Or, perhaps we need to treat Grand Moffs in the same way that we are treating the Grand Admirals, and have them be a dying breed. Whatever our decision, I feel it should be based on what makes sense for Fans: not what makes sense for EU.


Grand Admirals can't be played currently by anybody, except for Grand Admiral Desaria of course. The numbers are currently thinned, with a number of them having either died at Endor or been hunted down and executed for trying to go rogue. Grand Admirals Grunger and Zsinj fall into this latter category. Currently Grand Admiral Pitta is the most senior naval officer of the Corellian Oversector. Grand Admiral Thrawn is still galivanting around in the Unknown Regions.

I think the Grand Admirals should be kept around, but until someone works their way up to the position, we should probably keep them filled by historical EU Imperial characters that might still be around. Also, as Imperial territory shrinks, the numbers overall should be reduced. Right now instead of having 12 Grand Admirals, I think 8-10 would be sufficent.

Again, while this is factually interesting, it isn't all that useful from a roleplaying perspective. If no one is allowed to play a Grand Admiral, then we as roleplayers are not able to represent any kind of centralised military leadership. The fact that a Moff would report into the Imperial High Command as you mentioned earlier is similarly moot, because there is no one there to roleplay that particular agency.

If the Grand Admirals are not a suitable option, we will have to find an alternative. We have no roleplayers at the moment representing the Empire's military leadership, and we've repeatedly found ourselves needing that. I think it would make sense for us to rectify that problem, somehow.

[Vince]

Another option would be to have some sort of Darth Vader style enforcer. Rather than having a position of authority, they'd derive their authority by the mere fact that they're representing the Empress. There were some plans a little while back for a group of Imperial Knights, who would be an Imperial version of what the Jedi Order was to the Republic... a non-sneaky version of the Inquisitors, if you will. Perhaps the two ideas could be blurred together in some way: rather than one Vader, there'd potentially be an entire order of Vaders running things and intimidating people on the Empress' behalf.

This is pretty much what I had in mind for the Imperial Knights. Well, that and creating a platform for some awesome Imperial bad guys a la Vader. The roleplaying board exists to make stories, and stories are only as good as the conflict and antagonists in them. My hope is that with these 'Imperial Knights' there could be a good deal of 'Awesome Imp Bad Guy Does Something Nasty to Threaten Galaxy and Must Be Stopped' and other antagonists, deep and shallow, dynamic and static, round and flat.

[Reshmar]

We need an Imperial Command Central (http://starwars.wikia.com/wiki/Imperial_High_Command)Character.

This could be a group of Admirals, Marhsals and Generals or it could just be one High ranking Military officer chosen by the Empress for the job.

[Captain Untouchable]

Someone from Central Command is certainly the sort of character we need. However, rank does become a little tricky if we take that approach. If there are eight Grand Admirals floating about, then one would presume that the Empire's military leader would at least match them for rank. Certainly, they would need to outrank all of the High Admirals commanding forces in each individual sector. Since no one else is allowed to be a Grand Admiral, this would be slightly tricky.

Would they have to be a Marshal/General character, so that they can be equivalent to a Grand Admiral without actually being a Grand Admiral? Or, I suppose, we could have a separate special rank for someone appointed by the Empress - didn't Vader have the title of "Executor", or something like that?

This is why I suggested a politician character - using the US government as an example, you can have your cadre of high ranking Admirals and Generals (the Joint Chiefs), while still having a politician (Secretary of Defense) who is senior regardless of rank. Skirts around any tricksy Grand/High/Admiral/General headaches.

[Park Kraken]

We could just change the informal rule barring anyone from holding the highest ranks in the Imperial Navy, since Miranda is Emperor of the entire Empire. I think the main reason for that rule being around was to prevent anyone from creating a character and then taking command of a Super Star Destroyer right off the bat.

According to the Essential Guide to Warfare, some of the original Grand Admirals were political appointee's, along with a few Grand Generals being named but used mostly for political titles.

We could say that following Miranda attaining Emperor that a "Grand Court" was established in the High Command with the twenty Grand Moffs, ten Grand Admirals, and five Grand Generals plus fifteen of the highest ranking ministers to form a new version of the Imperial Senate, albiet one that mainly discusses ideas and current ongoings before proposing resolutions to certain problems, elected by popular vote, to the Imperial leaders for "consideration".

I personally favor reducing the overall number and roles of the Grand Admirals to about seven; one each to command Imperial Navy forces in regards to Research and Development, the Starfighter Corps, the Warships, Training, and Logistics. The sixth would be assigned command of the Coruscant Oversector Fleet, while the seventh could be a mobile tactician, moving from one trouble spot to another with something similar to Vader's Death Squadron. The total number would thus be eight if one includes Thrawn stuck out in the Unknown Regions.

[Captain Untouchable]

I think what we're in danger of doing is freeing our hands just to bind them with new rope.

Allowing ourselves to have more Grand Admirals, only to force said Admirals into a rigid and restrictive box in terms of role and responsibility only helps a tiny bit. Stating that there are 8 Grand Admirals but being vague as to their responsibilities gives us a bit more freedom. Having an unspecified amount of Grand Admirals gives us even more flexibility.

Getting nitty-gritty with numbers isn't really all that important for the Imperial faction. Back in the days when we had multiple Imperial factions and were warring against the New Republic, the balance of things was far more important. Now though, the Empire has overwhelmingly superior numbers and firepower; I don't think it really matters how overwhelming that is. We have measures in place to stop people declaring themselves a Grand Admiral and having a Super Star Destroyer... but Fans doesn't work in the same way that it used to. There's a back and forth, where we discuss what forces are going to be involved in battles. No one can steam-roll stuff any more: we work together to tell whatever story it is we want to tell. We should probably be looking at ways to make that process easier and more liberated, rather than just trading in one set of restrictions for a different set of restrictions.

That's just me personally though: I realise that the bean-counting side of things is traditionally a mainstay of fleeting. I just hate to see beans getting in the way of telling a good story.

[Reshmar]

The Ban on Grand Admirals Was more than just the Super Star Destroyer thing but that was a large Part of it so lets cover it first.

At the time of endor there were about.. I said about not exactly.. 12 Super Star Destroyers built. Thing is there are other BIG ships out there also. All together there are maybe 20 Star Dereadnaughts floating around. These things are nightmares. Yes the Executor went down like a chump in the movie, but that is not how one of these things generally dies. They generally dont. Writing against one from a fleet stand point is difficult. A single Mandator could take on an entire Alliance Fleet as it stands now and it is not as powerful as a Super.

Moffs can command military forces also. Many sectors the Moff is also the High Admiral of the sector. I say putting a Grand Moff in command of all Imperial Military forces is not a bad Idea. With the Empire as it is now would a position given by the emperor be popular? They were not really titles given to oversector commanders. An oversector usually fell under the Grand Moffs rule. The Grand Admirals did command them but not all had that position.

The Empire also had a Supreme Commander (http://starwars.wikia.com/wiki/Supreme_Commander_(Empire)), An Executor (http://starwars.wikia.com/wiki/Executor_(Imperial_rank)), and Grand Vizier (http://starwars.wikia.com/wiki/Grand_Vizier) that Out rank Grand Moffs and Grand Admirals. Maybe one of those ranks would be better for a head honcho.

[Karl Valten]

This is pretty much what I had in mind for the Imperial Knights. Well, that and creating a platform for some awesome Imperial bad guys a la Vader. The roleplaying board exists to make stories, and stories are only as good as the conflict and antagonists in them. My hope is that with these 'Imperial Knights' there could be a good deal of 'Awesome Imp Bad Guy Does Something Nasty to Threaten Galaxy and Must Be Stopped' and other antagonists, deep and shallow, dynamic and static, round and flat.

What Vince said!

However, Krakens idea with the Sith is definitely a no-go. The Sith are a threat to the Imperium as much as the Jedi, the Inquisitoriate will not ally themselves with heretics, especially not ones that have their own ambitions at control of the Empire.

[Captain Untouchable]

We seem to have a bunch of ideas, but not much of a consensus. My inner Geth is not pleased. ;)

What's our next step in resolving this issue? Do we need to make a concerted push to get the Imperial Knights established, so that we can start using them in game? Do we need to nominate someone as an Executor / Grand Moff to lead the military? Do we need to stage a reality TV show, where members of the public vote for who is going to be Empire's Next Top Admiral? Some combination thereof?

Sorry if I come off as pushy: we've just got a lot of things stuck in planning limbo, and I'd like to avoid this becoming one of them.

[Dee]

All of the above :P

I'd love to see the Knights established soon, as I think Vince's idea is genius.

[Reshmar]

I vote for an Imperial Executor.

I like the Imperial Knights idea also. But they too would need a leader.

I like keeping the grand admiral/moff/general title where it is, in NPC limbo, But we do need a leader of the Imperial Military.

[Park Kraken]

If we're doing Imperial Knights, why not bring in some additional rankings from the Medieval era and create a Bishop to lead the Knights? Executor sounds fine for the special enforcer(s), although that sounds a little Yuuzhan Vongish for me as a title. I believe Vader's title was Special Enforcer?

[Captain Untouchable]

Bishop isn't a "ranking" from the Medieval era - it's a religious title. The reason that Bishops and Knights are often mentioned in the same breath is because many Knights were members of religious orders. We probably want to be using terminology that makes it clear that the Knights are in the service of the state, rather than some hokey religion.

That said, do we need multiple ranks? Sure, the Jedi Generals technically came in different grades, but that's pretty much arbitrary. None of the clones ranked higher than a Commander; so as long as the person was carrying a lightsaber, the soldiers did as they instructed. I don't think we need to be much different: it's not like we're waging a war where certain Knights are going to be in command of certain standing armies, or anything like that. If you're a Knight, the military follows your orders... no need to get any more specific than that.

[Reshmar]

Vader's was the first appointed Supreme Commander of the Imperial Fleet. Luke was The clone Emperors Supreme Commander. and Pellaeon after that. Im not sure about the Executor. I know that Sedriss was an Executor.

[Vince]

If we're doing Imperial Knights, why not bring in some additional rankings from the Medieval era and create a Bishop to lead the Knights? Executor sounds fine for the special enforcer(s), although that sounds a little Yuuzhan Vongish for me as a title. I believe Vader's title was Special Enforcer?


Bishop isn't a "ranking" from the Medieval era - it's a religious title. The reason that Bishops and Knights are often mentioned in the same breath is because many Knights were members of religious orders. We probably want to be using terminology that makes it clear that the Knights are in the service of the state, rather than some hokey religion.

That said, do we need multiple ranks? Sure, the Jedi Generals technically came in different grades, but that's pretty much arbitrary. None of the clones ranked higher than a Commander; so as long as the person was carrying a lightsaber, the soldiers did as they instructed. I don't think we need to be much different: it's not like we're waging a war where certain Knights are going to be in command of certain standing armies, or anything like that. If you're a Knight, the military follows your orders... no need to get any more specific than that.

Part of my inspiration for the Knights was medieval military orders like the Hospitallers; while I don't think any title with such baggage (such as Bishop) would work, others might do just as well. Master and Grand Master (though perhaps not, given those terms' use in the old Jedi Order), or simply a title like 'Lord' or 'Sir/Dame' or even 'Knight' could do, but the fact is that there won't be a lot of people playing as Knights for a while, if ever, and the addition of ranks and rules as if there were need for them would make things far too confusing and arbitrary. At the moment I'm fine with a rank/title for the leader of the Knights and a catch-all term for the Knights themselves, because that sort of thing feels about as pretentious and important as Imperial things should feel.

[Reshmar]

Justicar is a nice one.

[Captain Untouchable]

^ I also like Justicar, but there's a risk that I'll start imagining anyone with that rank as being blue and large-breasted. :uhoh

[Reshmar]

A risk worth taking.