Name Dropping in Mutants, Unite

[Captain Untouchable]

This isn't a specific question looking for a specific answer... it's more something that occurred to me, which I thought might be an interesting subject to stimulate a bit of healthy, constructive discussion. :)

In the Star Wars setting, we drew a line under Endor and said that was when everything changed. Elements of canon and the EU that came before that have largely been left in place. We even have characters who were trained by or are related to characters from the official source material: we just killed all of those people off, and carved a new path from there.

In Mutants, Unite on the other hand, we've gone with a very different approach. Instead of an event that killed everyone off, we've acted as if none of them ever existed. However, we still have footprints of them left. We have X-Men without a Charles Xavier to name them after; we have a Brotherhood, but Erik Lensherr didn't found it. For the most part we've stayed clear of recycling superhero names, ability sets, and image claims... and in the few cases that are exceptions, we've usually put a totally new spin on it.

It's a completely different - and very cool - approach.

Marvel Comics have a very long and complex history, though. From the Second World War onwards, causes happen, effects happen, and we land at the situation we're in today. Marvel seems to be very much rooted in the real world as well; certainly more so than with DC. With so many of it's characters living in New York for example, they went out and did an issue of Spiderman as a direct response to that. And of course, the movies give us things like mutants causing and resolving the Cuban Missile Crisis.

How much Marvel-inspired and Real World inspired history does (and should) factor into the world we're writing in? Some examples:

During the Second World War, did America ever have a supersoldier program? Did that supersoldier ever get referred to as Captain America? Was his name Steve Rogers? Is there a Mutants Unite analogue of The Invaders: the team of Allied superheroes that Captain America was part of? Did Captain America exist, but die in WW2 instead of getting magically frozen? We have Steve Rogers High School... is Captain America the reason he was famous, or is he "just a kid from Brooklyn"?

Did 9/11 happen? Was it an act of human terrorism, or were mutants involved instead? Did we have "The War Against Terrorism", or was it "The War Against Mutants"? Was George W. Bush the President of the United States at the time? Since the timeline is still in 2009... did Barrack Obama just get inaugurated this January, or was it someone else? Do we have America's first mutant President, instead of it's first black one? On a more local scale, is Arnold Schwarzenegger the Governor of California?


*

I'm not trying to hash out a comprehensive history of the last 100 years or anything daft like that. ;) I just thought it might be interesting to hear what other people's thoughts are, and maybe see if some cool ideas for flashbacks, origin stories, or historical events that mutants might have meddled in spring up as a result of it. :)

[Dragon]

None of these things have been firmly established. For simplicity's sake, I've always assumed that history has been the same as the real world except where we've explicitly said otherwise. We've also had some basic inconsistencies in our mythology pretty much overlooked and retconned, like when I foolishly had Saladin say that mutants have been around for the better part of the last century. ^_^;

During the IRL election cycle, we had a thread titled Primary Season in which we staged a debate among three fictional Presidential candidates. We never did anything else with them and never established any of them as the victor in the 2008 election. I once had Alex compare his Saladin T-shirt to anti-Obama T-shirts, but that's hardly a clear establishment of canon. That, I think, is a question we should figure out. I'm reluctant to put words in the mouth of a real-life public figure.

As for Captain America, it's certainly possible that there was a supersoldier program during WWII, but I wouldn't want to render Vanguard's efforts redundant or obsolete. If there was anything, I'd think it would have been top secret. My main reservation with bringing any other Marvel properties into play would be that it might dilute the human-mutant conflict if we have non-mutant supers running around. Other than that, though, I don't want to stand in the way of a good yarn if you've got specific ideas.

[Lilaena De'Ville]

We pretty firmly stated in the beginning of the MU rping that the Marvel universe stuff doesn't exist. So no Marvel canon characters should be in the backstory of our universe, imo.

edit: As far as who's president, I think we should pick one of our fictional candidates and say they were elected, beating out Obama at whatever stage, depending on if our new President is democrat or republican. :)

edit edit: I dont' know who named Steve Rogers High School but I guess assume it's named after someone other than Captain America who didn't exist in our universe. Maybe? :mneh

[Dragon]

In the early brainstorming stages, someone brought up the question of what other Marvel characters might be running around, and, yeah, that was our response. We have still brought in a few pieces of Marvel mythology like the Astral Plane and Sentinels.

In the interest of storytelling, I'd say it's a safe bet that this universe's students learn a very similar history to our universe's students. After all, "The Mutant Phenomenon" only entered the public consciousness in the past fifty years or so. However, there's plenty of room for classified mutant intervention into historical events a la X-Men: First Class.

[Lilaena De'Ville]

Okay yeah, not that Marvel Universe stuff doesn't exist - Marvel Universe characters don't exist. ^_^; That's what I meant. :ohno

[Captain Untouchable]

That then raises the question though - does something like "Captain America" count as just a character?

The thing I like about Captain America is that he became more than just a man; it's something that The First Avenger portrayed very well. They showed the movies and the comic books. They showed the kids running around with a trash can lid painted like his shield. Even though he "died", he became an inspiration, and was a justification for those who came after him to dress up in brightly coloured outfits. Hell, the government agency protecting America is called SHIELD: surely that's not just coincidence.

Right now, we don't have that. There isn't a historic figure who someone like Tom Harriman can point at and say "Yeah, he's why I dress up" ... right now, people are effectively emulating fictional characters, intended for kids. Sure, we could facilitate that without it necessarily being Steve Rogers / Captain America / WW2 if it was something that we wanted to add. But we could also just use Captain America. And yes, I realise it's weird hearing me trying to advocate a simple option. ;)

I also think it's worth bearing in mind that Mutants, Unite is very different now than when it was conceived. Eliminating Xavier and co makes a lot of sense if you're intending to write as the teachers and students of a school. But the setting, the characters, the groups, the arcs, and the ideas that we're focusing on are completely different... and so are the players involved.

That doesn't mean we have to change... but it's not necessarily a reason not to, either. :)

[Lilaena De'Ville]

If you want to have a "first super hero" from World War 2 who is similar to Captain America that's fine by me, but I would personally want him to be called something else. I mean it's not like we strayed really far from the XMen origins, we put in our characters into the same situation and pretty much called it good (although Dr. Cullen was not a mutant).

How about a guy who went by Colonel Liberty, or Major Freedom, or something like that?

I realize you're pushing strongly for just using Captain America but since you're asking for opinions I'm going to give you mine and that's what it is. :)

[Taya Robbins]

I'm going to differ from Holly here. The name "Captain America" isn't so much a hang-up for me unless it's a problem for the forum rules concerning copyrights. But we're already using so many names from Marvel that I don't see why it should be. The X-Men and the Brotherhood of Mutants may not be characters, but they're as much Marvel's properties as the Jedi and the Galactic Empire are LucasArts'.

I'm more concerned about the implications for our story world. To name a few:

1. If America had a super-soldier program back then, why is Vanguard only now catching up with a mutation-derived serum?
2. Captain America had HYDRA to fight. If the Nazis had their own programs of super-villainy and their own Red Skull, what happened to them?
3. How does a historical Captain America figure influence the public perception of Mutants? Is it known that Cap was produced using a secret serum, or does everyone think he was an incredibly gifted normal guy?
4. If Cap disappeared at the end of the war, how does he serve as an inspiration for domestic costumed vigilantes?

I think my biggest concern is that we've maintained a fairly serious tone to Mutants so far, and I have a hard time seeing how a Nazi-punching hero in red-white-and-blue spandex fits into that concept. And I'm concerned the amount of development necessary for it to make sense would greatly alter the landscape we've been developing.

[Lilaena De'Ville]

^^ All good points that I agree with. I am not really involved in the Vanguard side of things other than "Vanguard=Bad, must destroy!" so I didn't really think too hard about that when I was writing my reply before.

[Daxton Stormchaser]

I've rped MU as a sort of alternate OUR universe, and have referred to comic book characters in posts.

Why do we need someone to look up to (Or back at, as in someone from the past) - why can't there be younger mutants who look at some of the older characters and use them as a reason to dress up and be a hero? IDK, I just got home and I'm tired, but I think we could potentially use characters who are already established as our Legendary Heroes.

[Halajiin Rabeak]

1. If America had a super-soldier program back then, why is Vanguard only now catching up with a mutation-derived serum?
2. Captain America had HYDRA to fight. If the Nazis had their own programs of super-villainy and their own Red Skull, what happened to them?
3. How does a historical Captain America figure influence the public perception of Mutants? Is it known that Cap was produced using a secret serum, or does everyone think he was an incredibly gifted normal guy?
4. If Cap disappeared at the end of the war, how does he serve as an inspiration for domestic costumed vigilantes?

I'd like to weigh on on these items, though bear in mind that I don't know my Marvel history near as well as I do my DC.

1: Even in the Marvel Universe, the serum was lost and its creator was killed, so no one knew how to make more. If I remember correctly, neither Hank Pym nor Bruce Banner could replicate it when they each tried fifty years later. Eventually it was figured out, but from my understanding, it was lost yet again. With it being such a difficult formula, and with Vanguard looking at a mutant-derived serum instead of something meant to enhance a normal person with no concept of mutation, I could very easily see it taking this long to come up with something.

2: The Red Skull and Hydra prettymuch got the living crap blown out of them at the end of the war, and their base of operations was completely destroyed. They disbanded after that and there was nothing left to salvage.

3: A historical Captain America was pitched as an everyday American whom the government enhanced into a living weapon and super-soldier. The government was very clear that they had done it to him, and this was so that people would not only look up to him, but to the government as well. I don't see any crossover to mutant bias in that backstory.

4: While Captain America did disappear at the end of WWII, he was a figured heavily used in propaganda and combat footage films. While he did not patrol the streets, he did fight for good and used his abilities to be a true super hero. His realm of battle was, well, the battlefield, because it was where the fight was. Mutants now might see the streets as their battlefield and take inspiration that way. Also, surely there are comic books in this world, and those would have been impacted by a man such as Captain America, thus translating to an impact on any mutants now who read comic books.


I belive that it would not be illogical to have a Captain America figure used as an icon in WWII, but just how he might continue to inspire, or impact others in the modern day, would be up to the interpretation of the individual.

[General John Heller]

I realize you're pushing strongly for just using Captain America but since you're asking for opinions I'm going to give you mine and that's what it is. :)

I'm not particularly pushing for Captain America at all: I just agree with Andrew that "it's just a name". I'd rather see us use the actual name, rather than a goofy and obvious rip-off that everyone is going to know is meant to be him anyway. ;)


I'm more concerned about the implications for our story world. To name a few:

1. If America had a super-soldier program back then, why is Vanguard only now catching up with a mutation-derived serum?
2. Captain America had HYDRA to fight. If the Nazis had their own programs of super-villainy and their own Red Skull, what happened to them?
3. How does a historical Captain America figure influence the public perception of Mutants? Is it known that Cap was produced using a secret serum, or does everyone think he was an incredibly gifted normal guy?
4. If Cap disappeared at the end of the war, how does he serve as an inspiration for domestic costumed vigilantes?

I think Mitch pretty much summed it up perfectly.

All I'd add is that if you aspire to be "James Bond" when you grow up, that's a pretty childish dream. But James Bond actually has a basis in fact. During World War 2, there was a British agent who used to infiltrate casinos in Germany, to gather intelligence from high-ranking German officers.

How did he do it? By having a specially-designed tuxedo that could be worn under a dry suit. He would sneak in by sea, strip off the dry suit, and stroll into the casinos as if he owned the place. (Seriously: this actually happened)

When there's a real life person who actually did that stuff... suddenly wanting to be like them is less a childish ambition, and becomes a bit more "grown up". It becomes a realistic thing to aspire to, because someone has already done it before.


I've rped MU as a sort of alternate OUR universe, and have referred to comic book characters in posts.

Why do we need someone to look up to (Or back at, as in someone from the past) - why can't there be younger mutants who look at some of the older characters and use them as a reason to dress up and be a hero? IDK, I just got home and I'm tired, but I think we could potentially use characters who are already established as our Legendary Heroes.

The problem here is that almost all of the "heroes" in MU at the moment do their work in secret. People can't look up to Ion or the X-Men, because people won't necessarily have heard of them.

In the absence of roleplayed heroes to look up to, maybe we need to add in some to our backstory.

What do you mean by referring to comic book characters in posts? Have you acted as if Marvel Comics exists as a publisher in MU with it's full set of characters, or have you made reference to other comic books, like DC/etc?

I don't see a problem with making references to Batman & co (I do it myself), but I would be inclined to stay away from anything Marvel-published, purely because we're already borrowing some of the names.

[Lilaena De'Ville]

Okay then what if 'our' captain America is a mutant rather than a created super soldier? That could tick most of the boxes and keep Vanguard on the cutting edge of using mutations to create a serum to make their super soldiers.

Like, I don't want a Spider-Man showing up or Norse god of thunder. I would personally rather we stuck to the mutant story rather than introducing other types of super humans, if that makes sense. Maybe?

[Dragon]

Mitch actually has done a pretty good job of addressing my questions. I'm still not entirely satisfied with point number one. Even if this was regarded as a fringe project, people keep notes. Saying the creator died with no usable record of his work seems like, well, a comic book contrivance.

Two alternatives occur to me: the serum worked, but with some nasty side effect - maybe it cut Cap's expected lifespan in half and was deemed non-viable for future development. Or maybe it's not the method but the materials that can't be reproduced. Maybe Cap's genetic structure was the key, or maybe a necessary ingredient was supplied by a mutant who was later killed. There has to be an ironclad reason why Vanguard looked elsewhere for their own supersoldiers.

Otherwise, my policy continues to be: if you see an opportunity for storytelling that won't harm the stories we're already telling, then go for it! I still don't want to proliferate non-mutant supers if we can avoid it, and obviously it has to be believable that he hasn't been a major plot point before, but if you have an idea for working Captain America into our background, I'm open to it.

EDIT: Agreeing with Holly's post above; the central conflict in the story should be mutants. I also think it could be interesting to tell First Class-style stories of Mutants intervening in historical events, so long as it's believable that their actions have been hidden from public knowledge.

[General John Heller]

Mitch actually has done a pretty good job of addressing my questions. I'm still not entirely satisfied with point number one. Even if this was regarded as a fringe project, people keep notes. Saying the creator died with no usable record of his work seems like, well, a comic book contrivance.

The creator didn't just die: the lab was destroyed and all records were burned. The only remnant of the project was Captain America, and he went missing.

Marvel Comics never had an army of Captain Americas, because they never managed to replicate the serum. I don't think we need to change anything on that front, because it's already tied off with a neat little bow in the source material.

I have no problem with changing it... I just think it's needed.


Okay then what if 'our' captain America is a mutant rather than a created super soldier? That could tick most of the boxes and keep Vanguard on the cutting edge of using mutations to create a serum to make their super soldiers.

Like, I don't want a Spider-Man showing up or Norse god of thunder. I would personally rather we stuck to the mutant story rather than introducing other types of super humans, if that makes sense. Maybe?

Actually, I think having Captain America as a mutant is exactly the sort of thing that Andrew would want to avoid. Surely, him being a mutant would make the government want to study him and "make more like him"? That's where the concerns about Vanguard not knowing more about mutagens comes in.

I agree that avoiding Asgardian gods, "cosmic rays", and "gamma radiation" is probably a good idea: Stan Lee himself has said that he wished he'd thought of mutants sooner, because it made life so much easier. But I don't think we should be too militant stamping out alternatives, though. You specifically quoted Spider-Man as an example: but he is (and most of his enemies are) still "mutant"... the DNA was just mutated artificially, exactly like what Vanguard is doing.

[Dragon]

I actually think there are intriguing possibilities with a mutant Captain America, and the government saying they juiced him up with an advanced serum in order to keep his mutation a secret. It would fit well with other government intrigues we've developed, and even though it would provide Vanguard a starting point for their own research, it wouldn't be something they could just replicate. His genome could even have been the pattern they ultimately used when designing their mutagen project.

However, that would be a big change to what was ultimately your idea, so I'll defer to you there. At the least, it's something for conspiracy theorists like Alex to rail about.

[John Glayde]

If something like that fits, then I'm certainly all for it. I'd just be concerned about it stamping a bigger question mark on Vanguard's mutagen research.

Like you say though, it would be interesting to work that in as an inspiration. He might even be the first mutant encountered by the US Government, and could some way be involved in inspiring the creation of Vanguard. In the Marvel mythos, both Howard Stark (Tony Stark's father) and Nick Fury had some connection to Captain America, and it ultimately inspired them to contribute to the creation of SHIELD. Perhaps in our mythos, someone who fought/worked with Captain America was in some way involved in founding Vanguard?

[Tear]

I've been pondering throwing my hat into this universe you've guys created (being a huge comic book fan). I was thinking of doing something akin to the Avengers theme but I didn't realize how mutant central everything was. This conversation has been pretty enlightening.

I should have realized with "Mutants, unite!" and all. Shame, I would have liked to write a non-mutant super powered people person.

[Captain Untouchable]

Is that a "non-mutant" powered person, or a non-"mutant powered" person?

We do have people around who aren't mutants. Vanguard has people who were normal but were artificially given Captain America style abilities with a "mutagen". There is also Zero, who has been turned into a cyborg by Vanguard. There are characters who don't have powers at all as well - Blackhawk is a Batman/Punisher style vigilante for example; and there are a few non-mutant cops, and gangs and groups in LA that have (or could potentially have) non-mutant members.

If you're wanting to shrink yourself using Pym particles and talk psychically to ants though, the rule of thumb seems to be "call it a mutant ability". For example, Billy O'Neill / Titan is in many ways the Hulk, but his transformation is explained as an effect of his mutant genes, not because he got a faceful of gamma rays.

Also, if it's the "working for SHIELD" part of being an Avenger that you're interested in - working legit for the government, not for a vigilante X-Men team - that's achievable in this roleplay setting too. If you have a character in mind, I'm sure we can help you find a way to make it happen within those parameters. :)

[John Glayde]

During the IRL election cycle, we had a thread titled Primary Season in which we staged a debate among three fictional Presidential candidates. We never did anything else with them and never established any of them as the victor in the 2008 election. I once had Alex compare his Saladin T-shirt to anti-Obama T-shirts, but that's hardly a clear establishment of canon. That, I think, is a question we should figure out. I'm reluctant to put words in the mouth of a real-life public figure.

I think in our sidetrack on Captain America (which really wasn't the main thrust of what I was hoping to talk about at all), we skipped over this very good point.

Like Andrew, I'm reluctant to put words in the mouth of a real-life public figure. While in my head I imagined Huw Edwards reading the news in my first Beyond the Sword post, I didn't know what to do with regards to a statement by the British Prime Minister. Should I have assumed that Gordon Brown (the real world PM at the time) was the one talking, rather than the generic ponce I went with instead?

We're about a month away from mutant registration becoming mandatory in California. Not only is that a big deal for the state, it's probably a big deal on a national level as well. It might be useful to at least have names for Governor / Senators / President characters so they can be mentioned in news reports and such... if not actual accounted people.

Personally I'd like to see David Palmer from 24 as President. He'd have the balls to send in Jack Bauer and show those mutants what's what. :mad

[Bette Davis]

My suggestion was to make one of our previous candidates the pres. I volunteer mine. Lets see if she's deleted or not...

[Lilaena De'Ville]

http://www.sw-fans.net/forum/showthread.php?t=17907 Never mind, they're all defunct accounts so I guess we can actually vote to see who has to re-register ;)

Matilda is Dame Judy Dench. :D

[Dragon]

Daniel David Cohen was George Clooney, who seems to have been recast as a British movie star... :uhoh Anyway, he was deep in Jericho's pocket and likely still is.

Jen's candidate was himself secretly a mutant. And that's all I really know about him.

[Muridaemus-musculus]

Daniel Cohen seems to be a Governor... while Clifton Shaw and Matilda Sweeney are both Senators? Was it ever established where they were Senators / Governors of?

As an aside, Judy Dench being anything but British is an affront. :grumble

;)


Edit:

And it's not my fault your account lapsed and didn't show the image claim when I searched for it. ^_^;

[Lilaena De'Ville]

It's in the third sentence of the RP, man. ;)


Matilda Sweeney, the senior senator from Arizona

I don't know about those other two jokers. :lol

[Tom Harriman]

I didn't read it. It had no pictures. :colbert

[Lilaena De'Ville]

That's ok most of the content has to be retconned because we said that the MRA passed federally and had been in effect for two years. :p

[Tom Harriman]

Well yeah... I skim-read bits of it and got very confused. Something about a four-year trial? :cyduck

[Dasquian Belargic]

Clifton was a telepath from Iowa, IIRC.

Edit: oh hey http://www.sw-fans.net/wiki/index.php?title=Clifton_Shaw