Civilian Ships in the Wheel

[Vansen Tyree]

I'm prone to waffling, so I'll keep this brief(ish).

We keep talking about the Wheel being big; and we're keeping things intentionally vague, which is awesome. However, we only ever really talk about the Whaledon, the Challenger, and occasionally the other two Alliance ships (Valiant and Intrepid), or small transports like the Knightfall and the Layla (RIP :().

There are more ships than that. Some of them even have guns, and might be useful in helping to protect the fleet. With the quarantine coming up, and with Dan's evil schemes, I thought it might be fun / interesting / useful to cook up some other ideas - even if they're just vague/abstract ones that we just name-drop.

Do you have an idea for a ship - a Cloud 9, a cargo hauler, a flying market place, a repair ship? Do you own a ship with guns and would like to volunteer for the CAP, or to participate / get name dropped in fight scenes? Are you a (wannabe?) pilot - Jedi or otherwise - who would like to get trained up to fly one of the clunky old ships that s'Ilancy and Inyos are working on retrieving?

One thing I thought might be fun is something like the "Council of Ships' Captains" from Battlestar - get a bunch of freighter and transport captains in a room to argue over who gets what from the latest salvage runs, who needs what to be repaired, and stuff like that. Would anyone be up for that?


Edit:

Here's a rough list of the named ships thus far for reference, in length order. Also listed are their class, Captain/Owner, and affiliation, where known.

Starships
- Challenger - Venator-class Star Destroyer (1,037m) - Commodore Vansen Tyree (Alliance Fleet)
- Valiant - MC40a Light Cruiser (600m) - Colonel Leela Vorega (Alliance Fleet)
- Whaladon - Action IX Transport? (580m) - Captain? (Jedi Council)
- Intrepid - EF76 Nebulon-B Escort Frigate (300m) - Captain? (Alliance Fleet)

Shuttles / Transports
- Gaoth agus Domhain - TL-1800 Freighter (30m) - Serena Laran (personal)
- Astral Queen - YT-2000 Light Freighter (29m) - Jaden Luka / Amos Iakona (personal)
- Knightfall - Dynamic-class Freighter (27m) - Captain Barton Henning (Alliance Support Services)
- Emerald Knight - Theta-class T-2c Shuttle (18m) - Inyos Aamoran (personal)

[Luminos]

Luminos has a ship to add to the Wheel. She is a Chiss privateer who has been exiled from the Chiss Territories. Appropriately, it is named the Exile. The ship is a Foray Class Blockade Runner (http://starwars.wikia.com/wiki/Foray-class_blockade_runner). I'm hoping as a privateer, the ship would be a close support to the Whaladon, perform missions and act as an escort and occasionally used for a mission.

[Selinica Miriya]

Sel, as you might now, sports a CEC YT-2400 (named the Mitternacht) that bears a great deal of resemblance to the same model belonging to one canon character by the name of Dash Rendar.

But you knew that, Jace. :) And you know I'm in.

[Dasquian Belargic]

More ships sounds good, although it's probably important to clarify that civilian ships aren't likely to be part of the convoy. It is a top secret military-protected mini-fleet after all. Anyone who is involved in its existence must have earned a certain amount of trust from the Rebel Alliance to have the clearance to be a part of it.

[John Glayde]

More ships sounds good, although it's probably important to clarify that civilian ships aren't likely to be part of the convoy. It is a top secret military-protected mini-fleet after all. Anyone who is involved in its existence must have earned a certain amount of trust from the Rebel Alliance to have the clearance to be a part of it.

Just to clarify - when I say "civilian", what I mean is "non-military" or "non-combattant", not "non-Alliance". I would describe the Knightfall as a civilian ship, because while Captain Henning flies under an Alliance contract, his crew aren't military officers. Acacius Blade has a ship if memory serves: I would describe that as "civilian", since it isn't military. :)

Also... from a purely logistical / realism standpoint, we probably do need some extra ships. The only cargo ship we've described is the Whaledon, and that's bursting at the seams with passengers and people's shuttles. We probably need ships around to transport all the food, spare parts, water, and cargo... that sort of thing.

And as far as looks go... the Challenger is over a kilometer long; the Whaledon (if she's still an Action VI) is only 100 meters or so. We could do with more ships that are going to be visible from a distance, otherwise people are just going to see "Star Destroyer + Escorts", and not "Convoy + Star Destroyer".

Some of these (http://starwars.wikia.com/wiki/GR-75_medium_transport), these (http://starwars.wikia.com/wiki/Star_Galleon-class_frigate), these (http://starwars.wikia.com/wiki/Quasar_Fire-class_bulk_cruiser), these (http://starwars.wikia.com/wiki/Brayl-class_bulk_freighter), or these (http://starwars.wikia.com/wiki/BFF-1_bulk_freighter)... that sort of thing. Stuff to flesh out the Wheel, make it worthy of being called a "convoy", justify the amount of protection it has... 'cause lets face it, if it's just the Whaledon, we should probably just transplant everyone to the Challenger and save ourselves the trouble of having to defend a clunky old bucket. ^_^;

Edit:

Or something old-school, like one of these (http://starwars.wikia.com/wiki/Cargo_Freighter)!

[Rev Solomon]

I agree that the Wheel needs more ships, and it's simple enough to just throw in a few NPC transports and support craft and say they were always there. At the risk of veering to another topic, I think we still need to address the issue of the Whaladon, which is frankly way too tiny to be the mobile Jedi Temple it's supposed to be.

I got the idea that at the Wheel's inception the Jedi enclave was very small, maybe two or three dozen strong, but with new characters arriving and Solomon (and others) ferrying younglings to the Wheel, we'd have quickly outgrown an Action VI. For perspective, 100m isn't even close to the size of a cruise ship - it's more like setting up a refugee camp in a good-sized gymnasium once you factor in necessary space for engines, shuttle bay, and crew. Trying to add in training spaces, council chambers, the mess hall, observation decks, bays for Jedi support craft, we're really bursting at the seams.

So I see three options:

1. Retcon the Whaladon to another class of ship.
2. Bring in a new ship and relocate most of the Jedi there, perhaps keeping the Whaladon as the seat of the Jedi Council.
3. Spread the Jedi among a handful of transports. While this may make sense in terms of not keeping all our Force-sensitive eggs in one basket, I think it would overcomplicate things for RP purposes.

I think the simplest solution is to retcon, since I don't think the size of the Whaladonhas ever been an important plot point, and I think we've already gone beyond what's realistic for an Action VI. Unfortunately, Wookieepedia is awfully sparse on civilian ships at the 500-600m range I think we're looking for. Anyone else have some thoughts?

[Luminos]

What if they use an abandoned Dungeon ship? They are old, slow, not really heavily armed and can support alot of people.

The Rendili Kiltirin (http://starwars.wikia.com/wiki/Kiltirin-class_dungeon_ship)version is 150 meters, but supports 1250 prisoners. If it was reconditioned, then it would possibly house 500 people.

The Lictor class (http://starwars.wikia.com/wiki/Lictor-class_dungeon_ship)is larger at 764 meters and supporting 9000 prisoners, so possibly could be 2000 people, plus training rooms, meditation centers, workshops, etc.

[Loklorien s'Ilancy]

The Wheel will be getting a new ship towards the end of the current arc. And that's all I will say about that :cool

[Dasquian Belargic]

I've got no problem ret-conning what the Whaladon is, if we want to keep the Jedi on board that one ship. The exact model and specifications of the ship don't matter to me, because I am always just going to visualize the inside of the Galactica whenever I'm RPing on board it anyway :lol

RE: the Knightfall. It's part of the Alliance Support Services, which are part of the Alliance Military, so technically it is indeed a military vessel :P At least to me.

[Luminos]

I hear rumors of a ship that is available. All we have to do is go to Dathomir... raise it from its grave... and get it to fly again.

[Ben Merasska]

I've got no problem ret-conning what the Whaladon is, if we want to keep the Jedi on board that one ship. The exact model and specifications of the ship don't matter to me, because I am always just going to visualize the inside of the Galactica whenever I'm RPing on board it anyway :lol


This please, because I was under the assumption that everyone was on the Whaladon, thus it would be a fairly large ship. I can change my post around to rectify that, but why do that when it can be retconned?;)

[Rev Solomon]

If we're retconning, I don't think we should use a dungeon ship, since that would likely be commented upon. I think most of the Jedi RPers think of the Whaladon more as a setting than a ship, and the class is just a word to throw into our scene descriptions, whereas the vessel's size and capabilities are very important to people involved in fleet actions.

I spoke with Jace earlier today, and he had two suggestions: a Star Galleon (http://starwars.wikia.com/wiki/Star_Galleon-class_frigate), which is a military ship but has commodious cargo space, and a Giga-class transport (http://starwars.wikia.com/wiki/Giga-class_transport), whose specs on Wookieepedia are vague enough for us to fill in just about anything we like, though at first glance it looks like it might be too big.

For that matter, I'd be satisfied with something like calling it an Action IX transport and saying it looks exactly like the Galactica scaled to 400 or 500m.

[John Glayde]

For that matter, I'd be satisfied with something like calling it an Action IX transport and saying it looks exactly like the Galactica scaled to 400 or 500m.

I think that'd be too much work for too little reward. I suspect that most people are in the "don't give a monkeys, to be honest" category, but if we were going to create a new class properly, we'd have to put the work in to create the specs and backstory so that others on the boards could use it if they wanted.


So far, I think we've been looking for a "freighter" or "transport". What if we think outside the box a little?

The Republic called it a Pelta-class Frigate (http://starwars.wikia.com/wiki/Pelta-class_frigate), but it was used to transport cargo, supplies, and as a hospital ship during the Clone Wars. The Republic also had a Rescue frigate (http://starwars.wikia.com/wiki/Rescue_frigate): not many details, but it presumably carries a fair few passengers, given it's role.

Alternatively, ships like the Diamond-class (http://starwars.wikia.com/wiki/Diamond-class_cruiser) or Hardcell-class (http://starwars.wikia.com/wiki/Hardcell-class_interstellar_transport) were used by the Separatists to transport droids and tanks: that's not all that different from being a cargo ship.

Andrew suggested using a Mon Calamari ship, since they were originally transpots and passenger liners. What about one of these (http://starwars.wikia.com/wiki/Mon_Calamari_capital_ship_%28Clone_Wars%29) or these (http://starwars.wikia.com/wiki/MC30c_frigate), without so many guns?

There's also an Imperial Cargo Ship (http://starwars.wikia.com/wiki/Imperial_cargo_ship). The crew numbers there seem pretty ridiculous (given that it's based on a ship with a crew of 700), but I'm sure we could fudge the numbers to make them more plausible.

[Dasquian Belargic]

For that matter, I'd be satisfied with something like calling it an Action IX transport and saying it looks exactly like the Galactica scaled to 400 or 500m.

I'm down with that. Do we really need to come up with all the ship specs? Big transport, no guns, lots of Jedi. Job done!

[John Glayde]

For that matter, I'd be satisfied with something like calling it an Action IX transport and saying it looks exactly like the Galactica scaled to 400 or 500m.

I'm down with that. Do we really need to come up with all the ship specs? Big transport, no guns, lots of Jedi. Job done!

Everyone else who makes up a ship class has to. I don't see why we deserve special treatment?

[Dasquian Belargic]

Because we're not making up a ship for fleeting/combat, so the specs will serve no real purpose. If you say it is a large Alliance or Mon Cal transport, with room for X number of Jedi to live and train, that pretty much sums up the entire purpose of the ship. It's not armed, so we don't need to know what kind of guns or shields it has. We can assume it has a hyperdrive of some kind, since it's capable of jumping through hyperspace - but beyond that I can't see what I would really need to know about the Whaladon as a setting.

[Loklorien s'Ilancy]

I always liked the Tulip from the Starhunter show. Was a luxury liner before being leased out as a bounty vessel, so we can always take that concept and use a luxury liner as a Jedi ship :)

[John Glayde]

If you say it is a large Alliance or Mon Cal transport, with room for X number of Jedi to live and train, that pretty much sums up the entire purpose of the ship. It's not armed, so we don't need to know what kind of guns or shields it has. We can assume it has a hyperdrive of some kind, since it's capable of jumping through hyperspace - but beyond that I can't see what I would really need to know about the Whaladon as a setting.

My point was specifically in reference to creating an "Action IX" that looks like the Galactica. Creating a "new class", like my post specifically said. If we were creating something like that... it'd be for everyone to use, not us, so the impetus is on us as creators to create the specs/etc, even if we ourselves aren't going to use them.

If we pick an existing / generic / whatever class, then we're not creating a new one, are we? ;)

[Dasquian Belargic]

And my point was that I don't think you need to come up with all the measurements and details of the Action IX to call the Whaladon an Action IX.

[Loklorien s'Ilancy]

Luxury Liner :D State rooms and comfy beds. Everyone knows that Jedi love comfy beds ;)

[Dasquian Belargic]

Luxury Liner :D State rooms and comfy beds. Everyone knows that Jedi love comfy beds ;)

Will there be a cocktail lounge and space-roulette wheels?

[Loklorien s'Ilancy]

Luxury Liner :D State rooms and comfy beds. Everyone knows that Jedi love comfy beds ;)

Will there be a cocktail lounge and space-roulette wheels?

And space-blackjack and a fully stocked space-bar, with a wonderful deck with a space-pool!

[Ilias Nytrau]

Luxury Liner :D State rooms and comfy beds. Everyone knows that Jedi love comfy beds ;)

Will there be a cocktail lounge and space-roulette wheels?

And space-blackjack and a fully stocked space-bar, with a wonderful deck with a space-pool!

This. After all, where do the healers go to heal and the warriors go to rest their ached muscles, hmm? :D

[Loklorien s'Ilancy]

All joking aside, we can use the Axiom from Wall-E, and just call it a Corellian luxury cruiseship if we go the luxury liner route :)

[Rev Solomon]

Who says we don't need specs? (http://www.sw-fans.net/wiki/index.php?title=Action_IX_Transport)

That's just a placeholder; we could certainly make any changes as necessary, but like Dasquian has said, for the purpose of the Jedi RPing, all we need is a name and a general idea of how big it is. We can't really retcon it to a luxury liner, since there have already been threads (http://sw-fans.net/forum/showthread.php?t=21209) where the ship's nature as an uncomfortable spartan rustbucket has been central. However, a luxury liner could easily be one of the ships that gets added to the Wheel, especially if Taataani makes good on her offer to upgrade our digs...

Wow, we've gone way off the topic of the original post. Anyway, retconning the Whaladon doesn't have to change our concept of the Wheel or even the ship itself; at most we're just trying to unify our mental image of the thing. We still need more ships in the Wheel, and the Jedi obviously can't stay contained to the Whaladon indefinitely. It's still much smaller than the Jedi Temple on Coruscant was, but it will give plenty of room for a hundred odd Jedi, their training space, and whatever support craft they require.

[Lilaena De'Ville]

Serena has a TL-1800 freighter, Gaoth agus Domhain, or Gaoth for short.

[Loklorien s'Ilancy]

Keep in mind, the liner could be a junked out piece of 50 year old history; doesn't have to be shiny and new :)


Would it make sense for the Wheel to have an old Munificent? I was reading up on them, and it seems they've got a rather impressive communications and sensor package, which the Wheel could definitely use as a way to stay nice and hidden, not to mention it would be a good early warning system. Maybe it was something they got after the little ambush they went through with the Empire?

[Vansen Tyree]

A Munificent would be a cool thing to have, and I have absolutely no problem wih Tyree winding up with another military ship at his disposal. That said, it is a very big and combat-orientated type of ship: we might want to be careful that we don't make the Wheel too Rebel and not Jedi enough.

We could possibly write something into her backstory where most of her guns were removed: either as part of the Galactic Empire demilitarizing the Banking Clans, or so that she could be sold off as military surplus. That way, she's a pure communications ship, rather than a warship that just happens to have good comms.

Heck, a ship like that could even be the Whaladon: we can always take guns off things, rather than limiting ourselves exclusively to ships that didn't have guns on in the first place.

Alternatively, I know Dan has a Munificent at his disposal. It could be that a Munificent plays a big part in the hunt for the Wheel, and we don't see one until much further down the road.

[Loklorien s'Ilancy]

Yeah, I did read on the wiki that the rebels also got their hands on some, which was what got me thinking. And taking the guns off is absolutely fine. I kind of had that in mind myself, since I figured it would only be used as the eyes and ears of the Wheel to keep them out of as much trouble as possible.

Everything non-essential could be stripped away, and the space left over from having gotten rid of the weapons could be used for extra shield generators and other comm equipment.

[James Prent]

Why can't the Jedi have a ship with guns on it?

[Rev Solomon]

I don't think it's that the Jedi can't have a ship with guns, it's more that we don't want the Wheel really resembling a battle group. Primarily because it wouldn't be realistic for a stretched Alliance navy to commit too much firepower to an essentially non-combat role. The more Alliance presence in the Wheel, the more the Alliance could reasonably expect to be able to control the Wheel's movements and activities.

The Munificent is tagged a frigate, but it's pretty huge at 825 meters long. It and the Challenger would clearly stand out as the capital ships of this group, followed by the Whaladon in whatever form we settle on. So the question is, do we want another full-blown capital ship in the Wheel dedicated to comm. and sensors, or do we want a smaller, more vulnerable ship like a small frigate or corvette in that role? I'm fine with either, to be honest.

[Loklorien s'Ilancy]

The Munificent could always be our Whaladon, as Jace said before. Which isn't that bad of an idea. Having the Jedi on board a ship that is nothing but a big sending and receiving and detection platform might be a neat thing.

The Jedi are growing, and they can't stay on a tiny convoy forever. The Wheel started out relatively small with not much at all, and maybe the Munificent addition is a nice way for us to progress the increasing numbers of the convoy :)