Padawans as Mentors?

[Inyos Aamoran]

Okay. So my brain got tangled with the initial way I phrased it. Lets try again. >_<


What I'm wondering is that we have certain Padawans - Barton, Inyos, etc - who have Jedi Order training under their belts. Then we've got the total noobs, who have no experience at all... they're effectively Younglings, as it were.

Since there are so few Knights and Masters, is there scope for some of the more experienced Padawans to train some of the "noobs", in either an official or a Qui Gon / Anakin style unofficial way?

I suppose that Inyos is something of a wonky, special case in this regard anyway... I'm just wondering if training someone - even if it's unofficial - is a potential means towards him regrowing into his Jedi Knightness, etc.

[Akasha Khan]

If you're talking about a Padawan taking someone on as an apprentice, no, I'm pretty sure that's not going to fly. But several of us have mentioned youngling classes aboard the Whaladon, and it makes sense that senior Padawans may lead some of the more basic lessons. It also makes sense that Padawans would seek each other out for joint practice or sparring sessions apart from their masters. Joint missions would probably be harder to explain. I wouldn't expect any but the most advanced Padawans to be taking missions without their masters, and even that would be a rarity borne of how short we are on experienced Jedi.

Barton could be a different case in that he was a Padawan before the Purge, and he has abundant life experience in addition to his training in the Force. I don't know much about his history, but, for comparison, Solomon was very close to promotion when the Purge happened, so even though he was never officially promoted, the current Jedi recognize him as a knight. Same would go for s'Il and Serena (unless she was promoted, can't remember off the top of my head).

[Captain Untouchable]

Barton isn't the only one that was with the Order before the purge... which is why I grouped Inyos in with that category. In fact, Inyos was a Knight before the purge, but now isn't, for a host of complicated reasons too headachy to get into right now.

The long and the short of it is that Inyos is on a road towards redeeming himself, and getting his Jediness back. He had a padawan before the purge, that he "lost", and that's a particularly major regret of his.

From a purely character perspective, it would help a great deal with the healing of his character if he had the opportunity to "mentor" someone - whether officially, unofficially, etc. Perhaps it's a student in one of his classes that is struggling, and takes a special interest. Perhaps it's something else.

I'm just looking at my options, so that I know where to go next; particularly given the impact that current storylines may have on him, etc.

[Dasquian Belargic]

Barton is probably unlikely to do something like this given his own difficulties with his identity as a Jedi. I could see other Padawans exchanging knowledge or philosophies but outright teaching one another would be something that Daria at least would discourage.

[Captain Untouchable]

*nod* Fair enough.

What about the idea of "student mentors" that a lot of high schools seem to have, these days? Quite often there are students in the older years who are particularly good with maths, languages, etc, who will help run lunchtime help clubs, or will even directly mentor an individual student, to help them out in a specific area.

I'm struggling to think of a specific example... but if we had, say, a Padawan who was particularly proficient with lightsaber combat, or telekinesis, or meditation, or something like that; would it be plausible for a Knight / Master to encourage them to seek help from a fellow Padawan with that?

Or are we just assuming that Knights / Masters can do everything just fine, and wouldn't need any glorified "teaching assistants"?

[Rev Solomon]

(I'll show you picky SOB... :grumble)

Honestly, I think, with the shortage of experienced teachers we have, everybody who has experience would be called upon to help teach the younglings. That would be plenty of opportunity for Inyos to see and identify someone who's struggling.

There could be some pointed questions if the help Inyos is giving starts to look like a Master-Padawan relationship, but I honestly think the higher-up Jedi would even have different opinions on that. Daria would discourage it, but maybe Solomon would think it was fine, as long as they weren't going on missions together or pursuing advanced teachings too far beyond the youngling classes. And, as you say, it could be an important step on Inyos's path to reclaiming his knighthood.

[Serena Laran]

Serena is a Knight. She was promoted close to the end of the Clone Wars and was on her first solo mission when Order 66 happened.

Its the holo recording of her knighting ceremony that caused all this mess with her in the first place. :p

[Kala'ndryl Ryj]

In light of the debate above, can I ask how many Knights and Masters are currently in existence and are able/willing to teach?

Because from my perspective, it doesn't seem as if there's enough people to train/work with those who want to be Jedi. I get that people are required to start as Padawans. I see mention of youngling classes and mentoring as a way to begin, but for how long? Its seems like an unbreakable cycle - a lack of training means a lack of activity and a lack of promotion which leads to a lack of people at the level that can take on full fledged Padawans.

Maybe I'm not looking at it properly, and I'm really not trying to be rude or anything...but to someone who's trying to get a baby Jedi off the ground, it looks damn near impossible under the current circumstances.

[Inyos Aamoran]

This is another thing that concerns me.

It doesn't affect Inyos to any real degree, but with Amos Iakona, I bounced around a couple of different potential masters, before ultimately giving up and looking elsewhere for something to occupy his characters. (Furthermore, I think Barton Henning was a potential option way back when, which led to my earlier confusion >_<)

Are we going to have to start looking at ranks differently? If you've watched the Clone Wars at all, Knights and above are equated to Jedi Generals, whereas Padawans are equated to Jedi Commanders: on a par with Clone Commanders like Cody, and thus in command of units, ships, etc.

Would it be worth emulating that, and adding an even lower tier: "Jedi Lieutenants", if you will? That could be for the total Youngling / Initiate / noobs, and would broaden the range of mentors.

Also, it would allow us to emulate the pre-Clone Wars idea of "You become a Master once your Padawan successfully passes the Trials" - if a Padawan trains an Initiate to the point when they are considered worthy to pass the trials, then presumably said Padawan has done enough work to deserve a promotion to Knight themselves (with an IC trials aspect if deemed necessary, etc).

That gives more people more of a chance to do more... and the "sending Padawans on solo missions" precedent means that those characters get the chance to progress, too.

[Akasha Khan]

Maybe it's time for another roll call so we can assess the Master/Padawan situation?

Or at least an update to the roster. I'll see if I can take care of that...

[Daria Nytherciria]

Maybe I'm not looking at it properly, and I'm really not trying to be rude or anything...but to someone who's trying to get a baby Jedi off the ground, it looks damn near impossible under the current circumstances.


Hello I am a Jedi Knight with no students, apparently we haven't met.

[Droo]

I have offered from the start to take on padawans as Loki. I'm really not sure what else I can do in that regard.

[Anbira Hicchoru]

Considering what's about to happen with Anbira, it's imperative that I take on a padawan very soon.

[Inyos Aamoran]

Maybe I'm not looking at it properly, and I'm really not trying to be rude or anything...but to someone who's trying to get a baby Jedi off the ground, it looks damn near impossible under the current circumstances.

Hello I am a Jedi Knight with no students, apparently we haven't met.

A semi-sarcastic reply from a Brit? *gasp* :lol

As I understand it, the poster is suffering from a bunch of problems. She has a character that isn't a powerful Jedi, or a Rebel; so can't find the Wheel through visions, through intuitions, or by conveniently being assigned to an appropriate ship. She's unfortunately fallen foul of one of the less active posters at the moment (we all have stints where activity is tough; which unfortunately is a big problem if we're going to insist on a master-student relationship being the only way for a Padawan to advance). And finally, she's after a specific kind of tutorage, as a Jedi Healer, which unfortunately makes some of the more combat-orientated Knights like Loki or Anbira a less-than-ideal option.

Rev put up a thread that is talking about alternative options for Padawans to learn, develop, and that sort of thing. That is certainly a step in the right direction, so that's awesome.

With regards to the "getting here" issue though... would it perhaps be worth us throwing together a few suggestions - possible avenues to join the Wheel - and then throw them up in an appropriately titled FAQ?

[Dasquian Belargic]

Just because a Jedi is a warrior, doesn't mean they can't be a healer too. Look at Solomon - he started out as a warrior and has ended up an old-timey preacher man. I don't think people should be looking at Loki, Daria or whoever and thinking "They are very stern/focused on the Force/hairy :mneh they couldn't possibly teach me [random Force power]."

[Droo]

I agree with Jenny on this one. A padawan isn't molded into a specific kind of Jedi, they are all taught the fundamental skills that will allow them to become a Jedi Knight. When it comes to specialization, I think with these classes we're in danger of looking at our characters as Guardians/Consulars/Sentinels/Healers before we look at them as just Jedi. What type of Jedi the character becomes is a choice the roleplayer can make later and develop over time as the character grows.



With regards to the "getting here" issue though... would it perhaps be worth us throwing together a few suggestions - possible avenues to join the Wheel - and then throw them up in an appropriately titled FAQ?

I like this idea, but if it's in order to help those who are eager to get underway with their Jedi character, then I would suggest they do what a lot of us did and just suddenly be there. Unless the journey to the Wheel is important to the character's story and growth then I have to ask is it really neccessary?

[Inyos Aamoran]

Just because a Jedi is a warrior, doesn't mean they can't be a healer too. Look at Solomon - he started out as a warrior and has ended up an old-timey preacher man. I don't think people should be looking at Loki, Daria or whoever and thinking "They are very stern/focused on the Force/hairy :mneh they couldn't possibly teach me [random Force power]."

Thanks for completely missing my point there, Jen. :rolleyes

It isn't just about picking up skills. Your master isn't just some MMORPG trainer that you only talk to whenever you need a new ability. While yes, someone like Loki could no doubt train Kala to be a Healer, Loki is naturally going to put more of a slant on training her to be a warrior, because that's what it is.

It isn't so much about the skills you do want: it's about the ones you don't. There's no point monopolising the warrior Jedi if you have no desire to be a warrior. That is going to force your character - by association - in a direction that you don't necessarily want to go.

Taking a specific example, you've encountered Amos: the gruff, tough, warrior type. His personality isn't cut out for meditation, levitation, visions of the force, and all that sort of thing. It makes no sense at all for him to become an airy fairy living Force spiritual type; and that's certainly not the direction I want to take him in. Yet, if he were paired with Daria, she would through his training enforce that kind of mentality on him.

If a Padawan wants to be a pacifist healer, there is next to no benefit to them pairing with a super-agressive warrior type like Anbira. It's just totally illogical. Maybe it's not "couldn't possibly"... more "shouldn't logically"? :huh

We are, of course, all about characters here... not the blind, mathematical acquisition of skills and abilities. I think we're losing sight of that.

[Dasquian Belargic]

...which is why it baffles me that you want to seperate Jedi into Healer, Warrior, etc. We don't have any characters who are one trick ponies. A Jedi Knight can adapt their teachings to their students, and a student - however different from their master - should be able to learn all they need to know from their master. IT's not a case of brainwashing your padawan into being a carbon copy of you; Jedi nurture their students strengths. Surely a more interesting roleplaying experience comes from having a pairing who aren't identical in goals and philosophies, i.e. Anakin/Obi Wan, Obi Wan/Qui Gonn, Yoda/Luke, etc.

[Droo]

I don't even know where to begin here.

First of all, the Jedi are warriors, they are trained in physical and lightsaber combat, and yes, they are expected to fight should the need arise. I understand that some are more pacifistic than others, and some are more spiritual, but seriously, they're all good guys who believe in peace and justice. And the idea of a padawan, or player for that matter, demanding a certain type of master is just absurd. The point here is story, and as far as I'm concerned, the more differences there are between master and apprentice the more interesting the relationship will be.

If Loki took Corell on as an apprentice do you really think he'd be able to turn her into a Loki v.2? Of course not, she'd be just the same old Corell, and that is a decision the roleplayer has to make. It's almost implying that a roleplayer has no control over their character if they're paired with a certain type of master. I really think this homogenized view of master-apprentice relationships is ill-advised and dull.

[Inyos Aamoran]

If Loki took Corell on as an apprentice do you really think he'd be able to turn her into a Loki v.2? Of course not, she'd be just the same old Corell, and that is a decision the roleplayer has to make. It's almost implying that a roleplayer has no control over their character if they're paired with a certain type of master. I really think this homogenized view of master-apprentice relationships is ill-advised and dull.

I think you're homogenized and dull. :mneh

I get what you are saying there, and to an extent I agree. But you've picked two Jedi that are relatively compatable. Loki would actually be able to help Corell in a constructive way: use some of his calm and ordered thinking to "calm down" Corell's impulses. The net result would be a better Jedi by the end of it.

Pairing Kala and Anbira meanwhile puts the relatively pacifist fish-lady in the hands of a big burly brute who wants to smash things. The only kind of constructive, personal development that Anbira could offer in that kind of scenario would be to make Kala more agressive, combat orientated... and that doesn't fit.

Yes, it's the players choice whether their character is affected by it or not. But common sense is the governing rule here, right?

* * *

Jenny - you're the one who is baffled?

Look at it in a school analogy. Our combo, grouped together Padawan classes are training people in subjects up to GCSE level. Loki is quite the combat expert, and is training them in GCSE Lightsaber Skills. Someone else might be teaching GCSE Force Gymnastics (speed, jumps, etc), while another teaches GCSE Telekinesis, or GCSE Jedi History, GCSE Jedi Philosophy... etc.

Heck, Ilias might teach GCSE Healing, though that could well be one of those obscure subjects like Law or Philosophy, that not every school teaches and you're not expected to actually have studied before taking the A-Level -- but anyway.

Once you graduate from the Padawan classes, you're going to narrow your field of view, and take a handful of A-Levels. From what I know about him, I'd guess that Loki certainly has his A-Levels in Jedi Philosophy, Force Gymnastics, and Lightsaber Skills. Certainly, he could coach his Padawan to A-Level in those particular fields.

But if that Padawan wants to go further, particularly as a Healer, they're going to need to find someone to teach them in A-Level healing. If Loki never took that A-Level, he's certainly not qualified. And if she wants to go into further education, and take a degree as a Jedi Healer, then she'll need to find someone who has also taken that degree... and maybe done the post-grad job of actively serving as a Healer.

You're suggesting that every Jedi is qualified to teach A-Level everything. I say, bullshit. That makes absolutely no sense, by any stretch of logic or imagination.

* * *

When there were thousands of Jedi, the odds of a Padawan finding the right sort of mentor were astronomically high. With the dozen we have on the Wheel however, things are going to become astronomically slim.

What if (instead of making out that people who suggest these sorts of things are idiots), we actually tried to come up with a constructive solution? What if your Jedi mentor is your "Personal Tutor" - the one who looks after your personal development, nurtures you, and that sort of thing? They can teach you the A-Levels that they're qualified to teach... but if you happen to need A-Level Healing, then you go and find a Jedi who has A-Level Healing?

Not only would that solve the logic/qualifications issue, but it also gives the Padawan more than one mentor to interact with, and saves people from getting stuck with nothing to do if their master has gone AWOL.

[Dasquian Belargic]

The idea of someone being "the right sort of mentor" is just nonsense to me. Jedi were assigned to whoever was available to teach them, and in the context of the Wheel that is going to be even more prevalent.

The fact is this: you can do what you want with your characters. You can say that they aren't qualified to teach whatever, because it fits your characters story - but others aren't compelled to do that.

I am not going to say that Daria can't teach healing or combat or whatever because it's not her "speciality." Star Wars isn't like Hogwarts and Jedi aren't just "teachers" - it's a way of life for them, and they are supposed to receive a comprehensive training all aspects of the Force. Aboard the Wheel, Jedi don't have the luxury of that kind of highly-focused, singular study: you need all the skills you can get.


Pairing Kala and Anbira meanwhile puts the relatively pacifist fish-lady in the hands of a big burly brute who wants to smash things.

:whaa have you read any of anbira's roleplays?

[Rev Solomon]

Maybe I can offer another perspective.

A knight's primary responsibility toward a Padawan is to train them to the point that they're ready to face the trials for knighthood. That requires certain skills that all Jedi should have, like saber combat, meditation, diplomacy, Force lore. More importantly, it requires field experience, which they can get with any Jedi.

In the Old Republic, each youngling's strengths and affinities would be identified at an early age so they can be matched up with a Master whose abilities complement those strengths and affinities. In our situation, that's not realistic. All the same, someone who wants to be a more peaceful, healing-oriented Jedi could certainly be the Padawan to a more aggressive character like Anbira. They wouldn't cancel each other out - they would complement one another. The Padawan would still get a very well-rounded preparation for knighthood, while Anbira would be forced to look at things from a diplomat's perspective as well as a warrior's perspective.

But Anbira doesn't have healing knowledge - that's pretty specialized. That, I think, is where you bring in another character as a mentor. Anbira would still be the Master, still be the primary point of contact, but someone like Solomon, or even a particularly gifted Padawan, could come alongside a hopeful healer and offer very specific instruction that Anbira couldn't. Same goes for other specialized skills like stealth or advanced lightsaber combat.

I don't think this is something that necessarily has to be formalized, and I don't see anything posted here prohibiting that sort of arrangement. It's as simple as PMing the writer of another Jedi and asking if your character could get some training in. Then go and do it. Simple as that.

[Inyos Aamoran]

:whaa have you read any of anbira's roleplays?

Some, though admittedly not many. That's the vibe I picked up from his wandering around sorta scenes... guess my brain was made biased towards it by the badass avatar, and the repeated references to him as a Wookiee... >_<


The idea of someone being "the right sort of mentor" is just nonsense to me. Jedi were assigned to whoever was available to teach them, and in the context of the Wheel that is going to be even more prevalent.

Bollocks did they.

I think you need to reexamine your EU. Mentors specifically chose what Jedi they took on as an apprentice. The reason that Qui Gon took on Obi Wan was because Obi Wan had reached the cut-off age: if he didn't get selected as a Padawan, he would have been shoved into one of the lamo categories, and missed out on his chance to be a Knight. There's an entire novel about it, or so Wookieepedia tells me.

Similarly, Obi Wan became Anakin's mentor through his own choice (though of course, the Council had to sign off on it). He did this, not because he thought Anakin was the right Padawan for him, but because of loyalty to Qui Gon. And, to reference back to a point made earlier: Obi Wan did try to influence Anakin's personality.

The only example that I can think of where a Padawan was assigned to a Jedi would be Snips, getting assigned as Anakin's Padawan during the Clone Wars. That was Obi Wan's idea.

I think it would be fair to say that the Council does assign Padawans, but it's more of a "they have the final say" based on a request by the Knight, rather than them just arbetrarily assigning people on more than a handful of situations.

* * *

Also, it's nice to say that we can do anything we want. But can we? One of the concerns raised is that, under the current, rigid structure, some people are finding it difficult to interact with their respective Masters. If we found a way to broaden the field, then there would be opportunities not only for Padawans to interact with other masters if theirs was unavailable... but it would also broaden the opportunities for the Knights and Masters to do more, too. And that's better for everyone.

We've already had the idea of Vorpaad training from s'Il put forward. Why can't we make this thing the norm? You have your personal master, and if there are any skills they can't specifically teach you, you go to someone else.

That'd alleviate almost 100% of the question of whether a mentor is appropriate, and turns it into a purely character / personality based issue.

Edit:

Pretty much what Rev just said.

[Corell Capstan]

I don't see why you feel the need to make this 'formal' - like I already said, if you want to do something like this, do it. You don't need an official stamp of approval from the rest of the Jedi to say that your character is being mentored by a variety of other Jedi. People have been able to do that from the beginning.

[Droo]

I think this discussion has tumbled so far into the murky waters of irrelevancy it has actually become moot. In the end it boils down to roleplayer choice. If a roleplayer wants a certain type of master they are at liberty to ask the appropriate roleplayer, said roleplayer then has the choice of taking them on as an apprentice. Alternatively, a roleplayer might just want any master, and that then is in the hands of the other roleplayer to step forward and take them on. None of this has to be monitored or regulated by the group at large.

And if, however, the master is unable to teach something specific to the padawan then the character, and roleplayer, can seek another Jedi to help in that area of training. And all this is really nothing new, it's just pure roleplaying common sense. I'm honestly wondering what were even discussing here anymore.

[Inyos Aamoran]

You don't need an official stamp of approval from the rest of the Jedi

That's easy for someone who has been around for ages to say, since you've already earned your way to Knight and beyond. For someone new coming in, though, the Jedi seem scary and strict.

We're the only faction where you have to start at the bottom. We're the only faction that worries about transferring rank from other communities. When we discussed the Jedi Shadows / Investigators, you were all pretty insistant that it should be a "Knights only" affair... which is all well and good for those of you who already have Knights, but for people coming in, it makes it seem line an intimidatingly long road to get from joining to the decent "content".

Quite a few people I've chatted with have this concern about joining the Jedi. I'm not saying we need to change the way we do things, but it would be nice if we were a little more public about it, and a little more open and friendly to people who aren't part of the super-special Jedi in-crowd.

Like I say, an FAQ explaining things like "How can I get to the Wheel?", "What can I do as a Padawan?", and "How does a Padawan become a Knight?" would make it a bit more open about what becoming a Jedi entails. Rather than just assuming everyone knows.

Because clearly, we don't. We wouldn't have to ask if we did.

[Rev Solomon]

Just to be clear, the point of this conversation is to open up new avenues for developing Jedi characters to 1) find the Wheel and 2) progress as Jedi. The biggest barrier to Master/Padawan RPing has never been a disparity between the characters; it's the problem of one side or the other not following through. When the Padawan drops out, it's frustrating, but the Master usually has other directions to go. When the Master drops out, there's usually nothing left for the Padawan.

Ever since the GJO, the default Open thread in the Jedi Temple/Wheel has been "Character A wanders the halls late at night and stumbles into a serendipitous conversation" or "Character A is training alone and somebody joins in." Not surprisingly, these sorts of threads get old after a while. It's one thing to say RPers just need to get more creative, but new posters are always going to look at existing threads as models for new ones.

Maybe the more experienced posters - Padawans as well as Knights - need to set examples of the different things we can do in this sandbox we call The Wheel. Maybe examples like these? (http://www.sw-fans.net/forum/showthread.php?t=21130)

EDIT: The above FAQ idea is not a bad one at all. There's a lot to like about the Wheel, but the reason I took so long to get involved with the Jedi post-reset was that, quite honestly, I had no idea how. All my ideas ground to a halt because the other parties disappeared. That's a big reason why I'm no longer playing Kale - I couldn't establish any sort of continuity with him, and now I'd have to re-imagine him almost completely to get him to fit in.

[Garen Thane]

Poor Kale and Lorca. *moment of silence for those no longer with us*

I like to imagine that Lilaena killed them both.

j/k


Anyway, Serena was Morgan Evanar's master (still is technically and will be again I hope!), and you can't get much more different in terms of personality. And when she's rescued and gets back, I'm thinking that she'll take on more padawan learners, even a grumpy Amos if that's what's needed.

Disparity between teachers and students may not be what was acceptable in the Republic days, but I think it makes for good RPs. That way maybe the padawan can teach the Knight/Master something too, you know?

I hate training threads with a passion, and rarely do them. I'd rather do threads with the padawan character and make them interesting. Like mission threads, or just-trying-to-survive threads.

If you're a padawan in a random Wheel RP with others, then go ahead and say "I've been learning this, watch!" (or imply that in your descriptions) and use new powers your character has been working on in their youngling/padawan classes. Just don't say you've just learned a master level something like Force lightning.

I dunno, there seems to be a lot of frustration in this thread. Serena officially gives you all a hug.