Gay Rights and Religion

[Park Kraken]

Well, really it's everyone's rights and religion, but gay rights seems to be the foremost of them all when in confliction of the two. I have very...mixed opinions on the subject.

On one hand, I strongly believe that it is not...natural for men and men or women and women, as evidence in the Bible and in Nature in general. However, sometimes it is not merely a matter of mind, but also a matter of body, which is just one factor of many that leads up to my second opinion.

If a couple chooses to be gay, they should not be discriminated/prosecuted/targeted, etc etc., for choosing this path. Rather, I see the Bible as a set of guidelines of how you should live your life, but, and I do mean BUT, if a person chooses not to do so, they should not be held accountable for choosing their own path.

So to speak.

[Droo]

A person doesn't choose to be gay. Did you one day choose to be attracted to a member of the opposite sex? Of course you didn't. It's just instinct.

Secondly, the Bible is in no way way any indication of what should and is considered natural in the world. And as for homosexuality being considered unnatural in the natural world itself, well that just isn't true. There are many examples of homosexuality in the animal kingdom, suggesting it is just as naturally occuring amongst animals as it is humans.

As far as I'm concerned, an individual chooses to be gay just as much as another chooses to be black or white. And homophobia is on par with racism in its discrimination because, when it boils down to it, both are examples of prejudice(and possibly discrimination) against a person or group simply because they are different beyond means of their control.

[Dasquian Belargic]

What two consenting adults do in the privacy of their own home is no ones business but their own. Anyone who says otherwise can go fuck themselves - or not, depending on whether their chosen religious text deems masturbation a sin or not ;)

[Park Kraken]

A person doesn't choose to be gay. Did you one day choose to be attracted to a member of the opposite sex? Of course you didn't. It's just instinct.

Of course not. What I primarly meant was, choose to pursue interaction, or at least, public interaction.


As far as I'm concerned, an individual chooses to be gay just as much as another chooses to be black or white. And homophobia is on par with racism in its discrimination because, when it boils down to it, both are examples of prejudice(and possibly discrimination) against a person or group simply because they are different beyond means of their control.

Exactly my second point.


Secondly, the Bible is in no way way any indication of what should and is considered natural in the world. And as for homosexuality being considered unnatural in the natural world itself, well that just isn't true. There are many examples of homosexuality in the animal kingdom, suggesting it is just as naturally occuring amongst animals as it is humans.

No, it isn't, hence why I made sure to differentiate between the two in my first paragraph. And yes there are examples, but they aren't very common.

EDIT for Dalaran:


What two consenting adults do in the privacy of their own home is no ones business but their own. Anyone who says otherwise can go fuck themselves - or not, depending on whether their chosen religious text deems masturbation a sin or not

Right, but they should also be able to openly express their feelings and views towards each other in public as well, without anyone targeting them because of what they are.

[Darth Turbogeek]

A person doesn't choose to be gay. Did you one day choose to be attracted to a member of the opposite sex? Of course you didn't. It's just instinct.



Choice happens even in nature. Do you want me to dig up the studies I have on Angus bulls deciding they were not going to bang any more heifers? It's actually a common issue in breeding stock. Claiming it's not choice is the latest update on "My mum made me a homosexual!".

Your genetics dont make you gay, it's what you choose to be - and if you accept that it's your choice, there's no problem. I didnt get fat because my genetics, it's because I sat on my fucking ass and didnt exercise while stuffing food in my face. And I have absolutly NO problem with people making that choice to be gay.

Actually I have a lot of trouble with people choosing to be fat.



if a person chooses not to do so, they should not be held accountable for choosing their own path.

As people, we are NOT supposed to be judgemental (we are, it's human nature). It's up to the Lord to be the judge of what is right and wrong.

Now I would also point out that in James 3 (I think), it talks about you either accept the Law of Levitius in FULL or you dont. Christians were set free of the Law, but if they choose to accept the Law, they either do it in total or not at all. If you have a religious issue with the ghey, then do you also keep slaves, kill your daughter if she has sex outside of marriage or stone unclean people to death?

So as Christians, we should accept gay people. You can be gay and Christian, just like you can be a thief and be Christian. The Lord might have somethign to say to you, that's not for me to speculate what that will be.

[Dasquian Belargic]

I'm getting a feeling of deja vu here... but speaking as someone who identifies themselves as a gay person, there wasn't a point where I decided I was going to be gay, anymore than I would imagine someone else decides they're going to be not-gay :huh

[Pierce Tondry]

EDIT for Dalaran:

I'd just like to point out that this is a major city and quest hub in Northrend, not a SWFans.net poster.

Now 'scuse me while I vacate this thread.

[Dasquian Belargic]

:lol I didn't even notice that

[Rutabaga]

I'm Catholic, and I'm one of their worst nightmares...a Catholic who is strongly pro-gay rights and pro-choice.

Regardless of a person's feelings regarding homosexuality, discrimination in all forms is simply unacceptable. It is also VERY un-Christian, as far as I'm concerned. And I really REALLY want to see DADT repealed here in the US, it's absolutely ridiculous.

I'm also one of those people who feels that if people are going to quote the book of Leviticus to justify their hatred of gays, then they have to adhere to ALL of the rules and regulations laid down in Leviticus. You cannot pick and choose. It's all or nothing.

[Charley]

I'm also one of those people who feels that if people are going to quote the book of Leviticus to justify their hatred of gays, then they have to adhere to ALL of the rules and regulations laid down in Leviticus. You cannot pick and choose. It's all or nothing.

This is irksome to me, because I believe Christ's new covenant pretty much says "lol veto all that old levitican law" or something of that sort.

[Park Kraken]

It's finally happened. I haven't even thought about the game in three weeks, but it's finally permeated my subconsciousness. Next thing I know, I'll be trying to turn Oprah into a penguin.

[Droo]

Erm... what? Have you just completely lost the plot!? o_O

[Park Kraken]

Most of the active posters have stated their opinions on the subject at hand, which is what I was looking for when I started to thread, to see what the general consensus is. I'm happy with the opinions I've seen posted thus far.

[Droo]

That still doesn't explain the absolute jibberish in your previous post about games in your subconsciousness and turning Oprah into a penguin. I actually think you might have gone completely gaga.

[Park Kraken]

Floridian. 'Nuff said. :)

[Dasquian Belargic]

That still doesn't explain the absolute jibberish in your previous post about games in your subconsciousness and turning Oprah into a penguin. I actually think you might have gone completely gaga.

I think it was to do with the fact that he called me Dalaran? A WoW thing?

[Dasquian Belargic]

<object width="640" height="385"><param name="movie" value="http://www.youtube.com/v/62k8H55gFIU&hl=en_GB&fs=1&"></param><param name="allowFullScreen" value="true"></param><param name="allowscriptaccess" value="always"></param><embed src="http://www.youtube.com/v/62k8H55gFIU&hl=en_GB&fs=1&" type="application/x-shockwave-flash" allowscriptaccess="always" allowfullscreen="true" width="640" height="385"></embed></object>

http://www.wegiveadamn.org/

;)

[Rutabaga]

I read yesterday about this campaign, I guess what's getting the biggest headlines is that Anna Paquin came out as bisexual for it. :)

[Droo]

I think it was to do with the fact that he called me Dalaran? A WoW thing?

Hahaha! Now I understand. I just thought he'd gone off the rails, talking about turning Oprah into a penguin, and so forth. It's okay, Park, insanity averted... for now!

And I give a damn. Also, does anyone else think coming out as bisexual is a little bit of a cop out? I have gay friends and every single one of them came out as bisexual first before finally admitting they were in fact all-the-way gay. I understand we can be bisexual, and some would argue that all humans are bisexual to some extent, but from what I've seen bisexuality is sort of a stepping stone to homosexuality. Agree? Disagree? I'm an idiot?

Oh, and ps. I'm coining the phrase All-the-Way Gay. For what, I'm not sure yet. Perhaps it will be the name of my band. :ohno

[Dasquian Belargic]

I don't think Anna Paquin saying she is bisexual is quite as high impact as, for instance, Jodie Foster saying she is a lesbian - but I appreciate what she is doing regardless. Depending on the company you keep, there is less stigma to being a bisexual than there is being All-the-Way Gay (:mneh), so I can see how in some instances it is like a stepping stone to homosexuality - it gives you a chance to test the waters and it isn't quite as radical as suddenly admitting you have absolutely no heterosexual inclination.

There has been some pretty cynical chatter recently about Ricky Martin's admission that he is gay, often people saying commenting that it's none of our business, why should we care, and so on... but I think these videos illustrate why it is so important that people in high visibility positions admit that they are gay, bisexual, whatever. It isn't about rubbing your sexuality in other peoples faces, its about being able to say honestly and openly who you are.

[Droo]

I was reading your post, and taking it oh so seriously, until you started talking about "rubbing your sexuality in other peoples faces". Oh, I giggled like a school girl! :lol

[Dasquian Belargic]

Well, sometimes it is about that... :mischief

[Darth Viscera]

Choice happens even in nature. Do you want me to dig up the studies I have on Angus bulls deciding they were not going to bang any more heifers? It's actually a common issue in breeding stock. Claiming it's not choice is the latest update on "My mum made me a homosexual!".

Your genetics dont make you gay, it's what you choose to be - and if you accept that it's your choice, there's no problem. I didnt get fat because my genetics, it's because I sat on my fucking ass and didnt exercise while stuffing food in my face. And I have absolutly NO problem with people making that choice to be gay.

Actually I have a lot of trouble with people choosing to be fat.

I find it nearly impossible to believe that all humans are naturally bisexual, and just decide to pursue sex with a single gender, or genders, that it's a matter of choice. A substantial portion of the population is very attracted to those of the opposite sex, and not at all attracted to those of the same sex. A small minority are very attracted to those of the same sex, and not at all attracted to those of the opposite sex. For all these people who are firmly attracted to one gender, where is the choice?

I'll prove it to you. Here's Richard Simmons. He's pretty gay!

http://img707.imageshack.us/img707/7143/071018richar.jpg (http://img707.imageshack.us/i/071018richar.jpg/)

Richard, would you like to have sex with a beautiful woman?

http://img88.imageshack.us/img88/1103/simmons.jpg (http://img88.imageshack.us/i/simmons.jpg/)

I'll take that as a no.

So you see, people have no choice in the matter. You take what you're given. Straight people aren't just being straight out of religious conviction, a desire to maintain social convention, and fear of divine retribution. They seriously want to have sex with the opposite sex, and don't find the same sex attractive.

Holy crap, Anna Paquin :eee I used to just really really like True Blood, but now I really really really like True Blood!

[Park Kraken]

Well, technically Mark is still correct though, because in essence when you choose to act on the instincts and desires your body presents to you, your still choosing to be, whatever it is you are. Or, on the other hand, you could choose to be miserable and go against what your body tells you. Which is kind of stupid, but sometimes one may feel so pressured by society to blend in to take that route.

[Darth Turbogeek]

[quote]
I find it nearly impossible to believe that all humans are naturally bisexual, and just decide to pursue sex with a single gender, or genders, that it's a matter of choice. A substantial portion of the population is very attracted to those of the opposite sex, and not at all attracted to those of the same sex. A small minority are very attracted to those of the same sex, and not at all attracted to those of the opposite sex. For all these people who are firmly attracted to one gender, where is the choice?

I'll prove it to you. Here's Richard Simmons. He's pretty gay!

http://img707.imageshack.us/img707/7143/071018richar.jpg (http://img707.imageshack.us/i/071018richar.jpg/)

Richard, would you like to have sex with a beautiful woman?

http://img88.imageshack.us/img88/1103/simmons.jpg (http://img88.imageshack.us/i/simmons.jpg/)

I'll take that as a no.

So you see, people have no choice in the matter. You take what you're given. Straight people aren't just being straight out of religious conviction, a desire to maintain social convention, and fear of divine retribution. They seriously want to have sex with the opposite sex, and don't find the same sex attractive.

You chose Simmons as an example??? Hes about the perfect "Yes it IS a choice!" example, look how he chooses to live, to act, to dress.

Humans area highly unusual species in that we are born with very VERY few instincts, let alone the fact we are basically helpless to fend for ourselves for the entire lifespan of the majority of the species on the planet. By the time a cat has raised it's 5th litter, we are barely able to shit and get it in the bowl. By the time a horse dies of old age, we are barely sexually mature. A resonably healthy human can, even in days gone by expect to outlive all but the tiniest of any animals ever to have existed.

However, we have the instinct to fuck females and females have the triggers to arouse and that arises at puberty.

Sex is usually triggered in a species by a mixuture of pheromones, sexual activity receptive signals, amount of daylight etc. Keep this in mind for a moment. I'll return to this.

Usually a gene that makes a male more female and thence attractive to other males is bred out almost instantly as the male genetic misfire is bred out and no offspring survive. The genetic marker also dies. This is classic evolution theory - but this is not what is observed in nature. It certainly is NOT what happens in humans as male-male sexuality is not passed down to children, nor is it possible to breed out and gay tendances can appear at random unpredictable points. You can have Richard Simmons and if his sperm were used, his male children could turn out to be alpha males and almost certainly will not be gay if bought up in a male-female pairing household. In genetic inheritance, this really should not be the case, and yet it is.

Now, returning to Sexual triggers - a gay gene is not observed in animal husbandry because if it was, it would be bred out fast. It is a 100% undesireable trait. However.... gay cattle and rams can still occur? Why is that?

In cattle (as something I actually did a proper science study on), you have a group of bulls that have shown utterly no tendancies to mount other bulls. Now, to keep it this way you do two things -

1) Dont over populate. With cows, the population will be much higher. With bulls... only two or three per paddock. NO MORE

2) When there is a cow in heat nearby, give the bull a sexual release or else he is going to fuck the first thing he can cause the hormones are telling him to.

If the population of bulls is too high AND they dont get a regular root they will proceed to try to mount other bulls and in fact will stop mounting cows completely even when there is a willing big tittied heifer right in front of him. Even if this bull was a bloody good stud animal up to that point, they are now permantly locked into only banging the boys. And will become hamburger in short order as they are now useless.

So it's observed in nature homosexuality is much more enviromental and choice (Oh shit I need to get my balls emptied... he'll do!) and very little to do with genetics.


Oh, I add that the pheromones extruded by animals will often lead to females trying to mount other females in a sexual rush. Happens in cattle, horses and sheep - and in fact that's how you know a cow is receptive to mating, she will be mounted by another cow!

This does transfer to humans and homsexuality was probably a lot more common than we are lead to believe in ancient times the whole one woman one man thing wasnt prevalent and there was a surplus of horny guys and no spare women. A lot of the reasons why wars were fought was so that you have a bunch of healthy men would rape the shit out of the losers survivors and take them off for banging duties. Yes, wars were fought so you could get a root. However if that didnt work, there was a whole system of boys and young men who were groomed to be basically receptive holes and it was completely normal in many social castes for young men to be buggered by the elders.

You will almost certainly see a big spike in homosexuality in China for instance in the next 10 years - not because it's accepted or there's a genetic marker in asians but because men wont have an alternative due to the big mismatch in the male / female population. Like bulls they get conditioned to thinking Hmmm anal sex and cock is a good thing..... and when presented with females later go no thanaks, I like cock.

So no, people can and do choose to be gay. And as I stated, there is nothing wrong with this. Accept it was your choice, deal with it, move on.

That's not to say there are some genetic issues with gay, but they do not get spread in a population because gay dont breed.

[Darth Viscera]

holy crap, am I in over my head. I have no idea how I'm going to come up with an equally thorough counter-argument. Touche, my good fellow.

[Darth Viscera]

You will almost certainly see a big spike in homosexuality in China for instance in the next 10 years - not because it's accepted or there's a genetic marker in asians but because men wont have an alternative due to the big mismatch in the male / female population. Like bulls they get conditioned to thinking Hmmm anal sex and cock is a good thing..... and when presented with females later go no thanaks, I like cock.

So no, people can and do choose to be gay. And as I stated, there is nothing wrong with this. Accept it was your choice, deal with it, move on.

That's not to say there are some genetic issues with gay, but they do not get spread in a population because gay dont breed.
The coming population imbalance in China seems rather like prison sexuality to me. But prison sexuality is impermanent. Guys come out of prison, go "yay! no one to rape me anymore!" and eagerly go back to having sex with girls. Prison, china, catholic clergymen, saudi arabia, it all falls into the "situational sexual behavior" thing. They don't get locked into being gay as in your bulls analogy, there's just no one else around for them to have sex with. And in most countries, there is no dramatic population imbalance, but there are still gay people. That's because there are just some people who are naturally gay, and were made that way, just as a lot of people are naturally straight and will not deviate from their straightness outside of situational sexual behavior.

[Darth Turbogeek]

holy crap, am I in over my head. I have no idea how I'm going to come up with an equally thorough counter-argument. Touche, my good fellow.

I did all these agricultural studies and stuff because I always wanted to be a farmer. I probably still have the study on gay cows somewhere, it was done with Hereford and Angus cattle on a stud farm in I think Crookwell.

I honestly never thought I would be using it to shoot down gay genetics.

The thing is that also, a number of the studies "looking" for a gene that gives the gay have been, shall we say... not exactly scientific - in either proving or disproving. I would always be seriously dubious of a "look yu are going to be unavoidably gay because HERE IT IS" when in reality enviroment can have a huge impact on sexuality.

Lets have a look at a truly absurd argument here to really get the point. Is there a pedophile gene? Is there a genetic marker that says you WILL fuck little boys and fiddle little girls? No there isnt and the question is completely absurd. Men when uninhibited with morals will fuck anythign that moves because it feels good. And lets face it, the age we marry and accept that a girl is old enough to have sex is different to even just 200 years ago. We actually get shocked with teenage pregnancies these days - but 2-300 years ago a woman was not keeping up if she had dropped half a dozen sprogs by 23. It's a different world when your life expectancy is 43. The USa has one of the oldest ages of consent in the world - I get some awfully odd looks when I state that 16 is fair game here. In the USa that would get me on a sex offenders list and jail time.

Now where this is going is to lead to the current sad sex scandals embroiling the Catholic Church around the world. It is vry true that unfortunantly there is a statisical uptick in priests becoming kiddie fiddlers over the rest of the male population. It not because wanting to be a priest and serve the Lord is a marker of a pedo gene. No, it's the enviroment. Men are driven by sexual desires and it can and does override their better judgements. And a priest is no different - and they dont have any outlet most of the time, which is why it's bloody odd that the Catholic clery are chaiste when the Bible actually says Bishops and deacons should be married to one wife.....

They are sick people who need help (or a crowbar to seperate the priests from the boys), not genetic timebombs.

Sexual needs are not driven by genetics, they are driven by hormones. Sure, genetics might say a male produces more Oestrogen and not enough testoterone (Interestingly, that lowers sex drive, ever wonder why fit and muscly guys can fuck a lot? Lots of testosterone. The more you have, the more you want to fuck and also the more likely you are to be desireable to females) or a female has lots of testosterone and grows a dick, but that doest define what you do with your hormones.

Hell, there are guys growing tits because they get too much chicken that has too much female hormones.

For me, homosexuality is somewhat EWWWWW and doesnt make sense. I like boobies. Boobies to me mean goooood sex. Anal sex is all ick and well.... I grew up as AIDS began it's killing march and that left quite a mark on me, not to mention gay friends dying a truly UGLY death. To me, gay sex even with condoms is just askign for a STD - condoms do fail after all and leak. So I'm no thanks, even with the opportunity.

Altho I understand that anal sex for men, once past the EWWWW and the obvious pain is very pleasurable due to the prostate being stimulated directly. Well okay, I dont "understand" as such.... despite my obvious Christian views I do hang out with some rather colourful people and been involved with things that you honestly wouldnt expect me to be comfortable with. It's quite amusing to be the 100% striaght guy at a gay gang bang or a gay bondage party, that really was a mind bender. I'm literally sitting on a couch as a mate and his boyfriend are going for it and he's trying to gross me out with the description the penis insertion and what is going on.

(TMI? Yeah well that how I found out why anal sex for some men rocks. )

And I'm thinking dude, get a cab home, I'm not going designated driver again. Ahh the advantages of a straight male who didnt like alcohol or drugs. Get shitfaced in more ways than one, have the straight guy get you home so you didnt get gaybashed wandering back drunk and dazed.
We had a few drinks late one night and he told me the whole story of how he chose to be gay, which I'll refrain from the first part but his first experience in gay sex was rather drunk and on MDMA. Not an entirely uncommon story.


The coming population imbalance in China seems rather like prison sexuality to me. But prison sexuality is impermanent. Guys come out of prison, go "yay! no one to rape me anymore!" and eagerly go back to having sex with girls. Prison, china, catholic clergymen, saudi arabia, it all falls into the "situational sexual behavior" thing. They don't get locked into being gay as in your bulls analogy, there's just no one else around for them to have sex with.

There's also quite a percentage who wont go back to sex with women either... because they grow to enjoy it or are too broken to have a relationship with women again. One of the acknowledged issues of comapring animals to humans is that humans have a much higher intelligence and capacity to make choices. An animal is governed by it's hormones more than humans and a human can in reality deny hormonal challenges, which animals simply cant.

This pretty much shows that choice (and also enviroment), not genetics is the factor in is a person gay.