US House passes key healthcare reform bill

[Dasquian Belargic]

What impact will this have on you?


The US House of Representatives has narrowly voted to pass a landmark healthcare reform bill at the heart of President Barack Obama's agenda.

The bill was passed by 219 votes to 212, with no Republican backing, after hours of fierce argument and debate.

It extends coverage to 32 million more Americans, and marks the biggest change to the US healthcare system in decades.

"We proved that we are still a people capable of doing big things," Mr Obama said in remarks after the vote.

"This legislation will not fix everything that ails our healthcare system, but it moves us decisively in the right direction," he said.

Mr Obama is expected to sign the legislation into law shortly.

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/americas/8579322.stm

[Figrin D'an]

I think it needs to be pointed out that there's still a lot to overcome before this really becomes law. The Senate still have to approve the reconciliation legislation from the House, and there will be a lot of add-on amendment tactics deployed to try to force the Senate to send the modified legislation back to the House. This happens far more often than not in these types of situations.

It seems likely that the House will end up having to vote again on a "tweaked" version of the bill sometime before the Easter session break.

It's historic in the respect that health care reform has never gotten this far before. The battle on this isn't over though, by any means.

[Yog]

A bullet point summary:



$2.5 trillion US healthcare system. Below is a summary of what to expect as Barack Obama, the US president, signs the entire package into law.

WITHIN THE FIRST YEAR OF ENACTMENT

- Insurance companies will be barred from dropping people from coverage when they get sick. Lifetime coverage limits will be eliminated and annual limits are to be restricted.

- Insurers will be barred from excluding children for coverage because of pre-existing conditions.

- Young adults will be able to stay on their parents' health plans until the age of 26. Many health plans currently drop dependents from coverage when they turn 19 or finish college.

- Uninsured adults with pre-existing conditions will be able to obtain health coverage through a new programme that will expire once new insurance exchanges begin operating in 2014.

- A temporary reinsurance programme is created to help companies maintain health coverage for early retirees between the ages of 55 and 64. This also expires in 2014.

- Medicare drug beneficiaries who fall into the "doughnut hole" coverage gap will get a $250 rebate. The bill eventually closes that gap which currently begins after $2,700 is spent on drugs. Coverage starts again after $6,154 is spent.

- A tax credit becomes available for some small businesses to help provide coverage for workers.

- A 10 per cent tax on indoor tanning services that use ultraviolet lamps goes into effect on July 1.


WHAT HAPPENS IN 2011

- Medicare provides 10 per cent bonus payments to primary care physicians and general surgeons.

- Medicare beneficiaries will be able to get a free annual wellness visit and personalised prevention plan service. New health plans will be required to cover preventive services with little or no cost to patients.

- A new programme under the Medicaid plan for the poor goes into effect in October that allows states to offer home and community based care for the disabled that might otherwise require institutional care.

- Payments to insurers offering Medicare Advantage services are frozen at 2010 levels. These payments are to be gradually reduced to bring them more in line with traditional Medicare.

- Employers are required to disclose the value of health benefits on employees' W-2 IRS forms.

- An annual fee is imposed on pharmaceutical companies based on market share. The fee does not apply to companies with sales of $5 million or less.


WHAT HAPPENS IN 2012

- Physician payment reforms are implemented in Medicare to enhance primary care services and encourage doctors to form "accountable care organisations" to improve quality and efficiency of care.

- An incentive programme is established in Medicare for acute care hospitals to improve quality outcomes.

- The Centers for Medicare and Medicaid Services, which oversees the government programmes, begin tracking hospital re-admission rates and puts in place financial incentives to reduce preventable readmissions.


WHAT HAPPENS IN 2013

- A national pilot programme is established for Medicare on payment bundling to encourage doctors, hospitals and other care providers to better coordinate patient care.

- The threshold for claiming medical expenses on itemised tax returns is raised to 10 per cent from 7.5 per cent of income. The threshold remains at 7.5 per cent for the elderly through 2016.

- The Medicare payroll tax is raised to 2.35 per cent from 1.45 per cent for individuals earning more than $200,000 and married couples with incomes over $250,000. The tax is imposed on some investment income at a rate of 3.8 per cent for that income group.

- A 2.9 per cent excise tax is imposed on the sale of medical devices. Anything generally purchased at the retail level by the public is excluded from the tax.


WHAT HAPPENS IN 2014

- State health insurance exchanges for small businesses and individuals open.

- Most people will be required to obtain health insurance coverage or pay a fine if they don't. Healthcare tax credits become available to help people with incomes up to 400 per cent of poverty purchase coverage on the exchange.

- Health plans no longer can exclude people from coverage due to pre-existing conditions.

- Employers with 50 or more workers who do not offer coverage face a fine of $2,000 for each employee if any worker receives subsidised insurance on the exchange. The first 30 employees aren't counted for the fine.

- Health insurance companies begin paying a fee based on their market share.


WHAT HAPPENS IN 2015

- Medicare creates a physician payment programme aimed at rewarding quality of care rather than volume of services.


WHAT HAPPENS IN 2018

- An excise tax on high cost employer-provided plans is imposed. The first $27,500 of a family plan and $10,200 for individual coverage is exempt from the tax. Higher levels are set for plans covering retirees and people in high risk professions.





NYT article on the changes (http://www.nytimes.com/2010/03/22/your-money/health-insurance/22consumer.html?hp):


The Uninsured

Although most Americans who do not obtain health insurance would face a federal penalty starting in 2014, many experts question how strict the enforcement of that penalty would actually be.

The first year, consumers who did not have insurance would owe $95, or 1 percent of income, whichever is greater. But the penalty would subsequently rise, reaching $695, or 2 percent of income.

Families who fall below the income-tax filing thresholds would not owe anything. Nor would people who cannot find a policy that costs less than 8 percent of their income, said Sara R. Collins, a vice president at the Commonwealth Fund, an independent nonprofit research group.

EXPANDED MEDICAID More lower-income individuals under the age of 65 would be covered by Medicaid, the federal health insurance plan for the poor. Under the new rules, households with income up to 133 percent of the federal poverty level, or about $29,327 for a family of four, would be eligible.

EXCHANGES AND SUBSIDIES Most other uninsured people would be required to buy insurance through one of the new state-run insurance exchanges. People with incomes of more than 133 percent of the poverty level but less than 400 percent (that’s $29,327 to $88,200 for a family of four) would be eligible for premium subsidies through the exchanges.

Premiums would also be capped at a percentage of income, ranging from 3 percent of income to as much as 9.5 percent.

EMPLOYMENT FLEXIBILITY The exchanges would also help people who lose their jobs, quit or decide to start their own businesses.

“If you lose your employer-related insurance, you will be able to move seamlessly into the exchange,” said Timothy Stoltzfus Jost, a professor at the Washington and Lee University School of Law.

Moreover, people of any age who cannot find a plan that costs less than 8 percent of their income would be allowed to buy a catastrophic policy otherwise intended for people under age 30.

Those With Insurance

EMPLOYER COVERAGE People who receive coverage through large employers would be unlikely to see any drastic changes, nor should premiums or coverage be affected. But almost everyone would benefit from new regulations, like the ban on pre-existing conditions that would apply to all policies come 2014.

There might even be cases where people would be eligible to buy insurance through an exchange instead of through their employer, Professor Jost said: those who must pay more than 9.5 percent of their income for premiums, or those whose plans do not cover more than 60 percent of the cost their benefits.

CHANGES IN MEDICARE One of the biggest changes involves the Medicare prescription drug program. Its unpopular “doughnut hole” — a big, expensive gap in coverage that affects millions — would be eliminated by 2020. Starting immediately, consumers who hit the gap would receive a $250 rebate. In 2011, they would receive a 50 percent discount on brand name drugs.

HIGH-COST INSURANCE Starting in 2018, employers that offer workers pricier plans — or those with total premiums of $10,200 or more for singles and $27,500 for families — would be subject to a 40 percent tax on the excess premium, said C. Clinton Stretch, managing principal of tax policy at Deloitte. Retirees and workers in high-risk professions like firefighting would have higher thresholds ($11,850 for singles, or $30,950 for families), pegged to inflation.

Although the taxes would be levied on the insurer, experts expect the assessment to be passed on to the consumer in the form of higher premiums or reduced benefits.


TLDR version; removes some of the worst malpractices of health insurance companies, and makes health insurance accessible for millions previously not covered. It's an important step in the right direction, but it's just that; a start.

The holy grail of this debate is the Public Option (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Public_health_insurance_option). Because otherwise the insurance companies are just going to continue to raise the premiums and post record earnings. The Public option would also reduce the cost for government, lower the prices and be a natural transition to prepare for full UHC / single payer. Public Option is much tougher to pass in the senate, and would require the use of reconciliation to get the required 50 votes and thus get around the filibuster problem. There is a site (http://whipcongress.com/?source=tpm-1022) tracking the support for that. So far, there are a lot of senators who say they support it in the media, but then call Pelosi begging her to not bring it up for a vote. We'll see what happens.

[Loklorien s'Ilancy]

It's a very small step, but at least it's a step in the right direction :)

[Jedi Master Carr]

Yes it is a small step, but necessary. I have to say republican who are against it have nothing to fear. We can blame the fear machine because that is exactly why they are against it to drag fear of the U.S becoming a socialist state which is just false logic.

[Yog]

This is a rather depressing read (http://www.huffingtonpost.com/jane-hamsher/fact-sheet-the-truth-abou_b_506026.html), and AFAIK, it is factually correct on all counts, even though it only focuses on the bad stuff. It just goes to show health care reform still has a looong way to go before the system is unbroken. As I said, you guys are going to need a public option, or the system will just continue to be broken. Watch the insurance companies continue to bump the premiums by 30% on an annual basis.

In other news, health insurance stocks are up (http://www.forbes.com/2010/03/22/briefing-americas-closer-markets-equities-healthcare-hospitals.html?boxes=marketschannelnews) today, and 12 states will start litigation to bring the health care bill up for the supreme court because it is deemed unconstitutional by the republicans.. :rolleyes

[Loklorien s'Ilancy]

In other news, health insurance stocks are up (http://www.forbes.com/2010/03/22/briefing-americas-closer-markets-equities-healthcare-hospitals.html?boxes=marketschannelnews) today, and 12 states will start litigation to bring the health care bill up for the supreme court because it is deemed unconstitutional by the republicans.. :rolleyes

I've got this mental image of Eddie Izzard with his fingers in his ears, going "Ah! Arghaerf nsdgioungakjg no I can't hear you aahhlalalalalalala!"

[Darth Viscera]

What impact will this have on you?

Personally, I'll have a much easier time getting to see the doctor without getting slammed with prohibitively ultra-high costs. In 2014, I'll also be eligible for insurance, despite any pre-existing condition I may have or the company may dream up.

I'm quite looking forward to being able to sprain my ankle or whatnot in 4 years and then going to the hospital without having to pay a $84,719 bill and being thoroughly cognizant that the meter is running. Oh, what luxury! I hear that hospital food is fit for kings. I'll take my top-hat and my monocle and ride there on my unicycle, all the while saying "Stand aside young lady! I am a classy fellow!". I'm already planning a vacation there, like the rich guy from Monopoly who owns hotels on Baltic Avenue but for some reason has to go to jail if he runs afoul of the random number generator.

Make no mistake, this bill is a horribly castrated shadow of actual health reform that you see in every other first-world country, but I'll take the democrats' passive ineptitude over the republicans' active malevolence every day of the week, and twice on sundays. This bill is better than nothing. It could be made much better with a public option which is made available to every American who applies for it and charged on the basis of a sliding scale, along with a nationwide (not statewide) health care exchange. Or, to really get greedy, the full government takeover special: single-payer. Mmmm, the mind salivates at the very thought of it. Paying $2,500 to uncle sam for guaranteed health care, instead of $7,500 to the Bernie Madoff Health Insurance Co. for maybe-but-probably-not health care? Where do I sign?

This bill is not a government takeover, or socialized medicine, or communism, or socialism, or nazism, or reparations to african-americans, or a plot to throw conservatives in concentration camps, or any other retarded scheme concocted in the fevered dreams of broadcasters who are in equal measures crazy and yearning for more viewers. It is a very very mild reform of our existing horrible health care system, carefully calculated to avoid offending any republicans, the product of bipartisan compromises, and then compromises on the compromises, and then compromises on the compromises on the compromises. It is more thoroughly a republican health care bill than many of the actual republican health care notions that we have seen in years past. So if you are a republican who is planning to move to Canada to escape socialism in the United States, then get a bloody grip.

[Callista]

I'm not informed enough to make a really good stand...but as someone that hasn't had insurance for a couple years, owns her own business, and had pre-existing conditions in the past...I'm kind of glad? I WANT insurance, but in the past pre-existing conditions made it so I couldn't get it without paying a TON. If I were to not get it, I'd be fined some $650ish....which, if you average out is $54ish a month - might as well just find healthcare - hehe...

[Callista]

I'm also really interested to understand the new student loan stuff that went through...anyone have a good source for that?

[Darth Viscera]

I'm not informed enough to make a really good stand...but as someone that hasn't had insurance for a couple years, owns her own business, and had pre-existing conditions in the past...I'm kind of glad? I WANT insurance, but in the past pre-existing conditions made it so I couldn't get it without paying a TON. If I were to not get it, I'd be fined some $650ish....which, if you average out is $54ish a month - might as well just find healthcare - hehe...

On June 23, 2010, there will be a (national?) high risk pool set up for adults with pre-existing conditions. It may be priced out of reach, though.

In 2014, if your income is <=133% of the federal poverty level, you'll be eligible for Medicaid. If your income is <=400% of the federal poverty level, you'll be eligible for subsidized discount private health insurance through a state exchange. 100% of the federal poverty level is $10,830 + $3,740 for every additional person in your family unit.


I'm also really interested to understand the new student loan stuff that went through...anyone have a good source for that?

It looks like the bill increases Pell Grants. "The bill sets automatic annual increases in the maximum Pell grant, scheduled to rise to $5,975 by 2017 from $5,350 this year." (http://www.nytimes.com/2010/03/22/education/22pell.html)

[Morgan Evanar]

Hopefully my parents healthcare will be less than their mortgage sooner than later =/

I'm going to be uninsured in a week, too. I dunno what I'm going to do about that besides stay healthy.

[Darth Turbogeek]

Welcome to 1972 Australia, America. In 20 years time you might with any luck end up with a real version of Mdicare, where I can be fixed up and not worry about the costs.




In other news, health insurance stocks are up (http://www.forbes.com/2010/03/22/briefing-americas-closer-markets-equities-healthcare-hospitals.html?boxes=marketschannelnews) today, and 12 states will start litigation to bring the health care bill up for the supreme court because it is deemed unconstitutional by the republicans.. :rolleyes

In all seriousness, anyone who claims to support the Republican Party with the utter levels of stupid those fools come out with is a fucking idiot.

[Darth Viscera]

It'll probably take us a lot longer than 20 years to get to 1948 Great Britain in terms of UHC. Maybe by 2048.

Our system of government is simply too slow and resistant to change to effectively govern us. Maybe a constitutional crisis will lead to the declaration of a second republic, in which the senate's approval will no longer be necessary for the passage of legislation. Currently, the senate represents all states equally. California has the same 2 votes that Wyoming does, despite California having a population 68x larger. With smaller states being decidedly more conservative than larger ones and having a disproportionately huge number of votes, you wind up with legislation that is favored by the majority of citizens failing to pass because small states with very low populations don't like them.

[Rutabaga]

I'm not completely happy with this bill either--I fully support Medicare for all, it's embarrassing that we're the only industrialized nation on the planet that doesn't ensure that all citizens have health care coverage. But I also agree that it's a small step in the right direction.

Overall I have found the whole process, and most particularly the behavior of many Republicans, to also be extraordinarily embarrassing. Infuriating and saddening, as well. The hyperbole and outright LYING by them, combined with the fact that most in our so-called "liberal media" have FAILED to call them out on the hyperbole and lying, has left me with going around with a sick feeling in the pit of my stomach. I will not be surprised in the least if there is some act of violence directed at either Obama himself or Democratic members of Congress. The tea party protests over the weekend (which were the least attended protests in DC but got ALL the media coverage) were very ugly, with racial slurs and spitting occurring. There has already been vandalism at at least 5 congressional offices. Escalation is probably inevitable.

There was a poll in the last few days that showed that most Republicans think Obama is a socialist, a Muslim, doing many of the things Hitler did, and quite possibly the Anti-Christ.

Thanks so much, Fox "News," Limbaugh, Beck, Hannity, and certain Republican members of Congress. You've done your job well. :( :( :(

[Darth Viscera]

Don't forget the maniac who called up Congresswoman Louise Slaughter and said that he was going to murder the children of every democrat who voted for this bill. And Sarah Palin, who said that Republicans need to "reload", and "aim" for all the democrats who passed it, and then put them in crosshairs. It would seem that the new legislative strategy of the lunatic wing of the republican party is to inspire some of their more mentally unhinged followers to kill democrats.

Oh, and John McCain, who says he will work on no further legislation now that health care reform has passed.

[Rutabaga]

The hospital I work for is a Catholic Healthcare West (CHW) facility, and we all got an email from the CHW CEO today about the bill being signed. CHW endorsed the bill, so it was a very positive email.

In other news, a tea party group posted a Virginia congressman's home address on their website and invited people to "thank" him for his yes vote. Turns out it was the wrong address, it was actually his brother's address. Then a propane gas line was cut at the brother's house. Gee, do you think that's a coincidence? :mischief

Then there's Sarah Palin's Facebook page with the gunsights on it. Again, I just know something really bad is gonna happen.... :(

[Park Kraken]

There was a poll in the last few days that showed that most Republicans think Obama is a socialist, a Muslim, doing many of the things Hitler did, and quite possibly the Anti-Christ.

Pffft. They must've hung around the Toledo, OH, or Amarillo, TX areas. Down here in Florida the only major concern in regards to Obama right now among Republicans is that he might be spending too much time focusing on the Healthcare Bill and might be slacking off on his other duties.

[Morgan Evanar]

Tampa area Republicans (and Tampa people in general) are much more moderate than some of the other areas of the state.

[Darth Turbogeek]

There was a poll in the last few days that showed that most Republicans think Obama is a socialist, a Muslim, doing many of the things Hitler did, and quite possibly the Anti-Christ.
Pffft. They must've hung around the Toledo, OH, or Amarillo, TX areas. Down here in Florida the only major concern in regards to Obama right now among Republicans is that he might be spending too much time focusing on the Healthcare Bill and might be slacking off on his other duties.

How the hell in a state that is so full of insane is there actual resonable Republicans??????

[Rutabaga]

That Harris poll I referenced is apparently getting criticism from some quarters for how they phrased their questions. It still gives me some pause, though, because there are still some really crazy people out there. Footage of the tea party rallies proves it.

There have been enough threats against Democratic members of congress now that some of them have extra security available for their use.

BTW, I'm kind of curious about the opinions of our non-US posters as to the whole tea party thingie. Is that just uniquely American stupidity, or is it something common to all countries?

[Yog]

BTW, I'm kind of curious about the opinions of our non-US posters as to the whole tea party thingie. Is that just uniquely American stupidity, or is it something common to all countries?
They are mostly viewed as radical right wing loonies at best, racist anarchists at worst. They are definitely out on the fringe.

These radical groups exist in every country, but what makes the Tea Party movement different in my eyes is the support they seem to get on a grass-root level, and the amount of coverage in the media. In other countries in the western world, such a group would be condemned by all political parties and not be taken serious. The Republicans seem to be fueling their support by condoning their behavior (especially Sarah Palin).

[Dasquian Belargic]

As a Brit, it all seems pretty hysterical, chaotic and uninformed to me, though I suspect that as with most public outcries of this kind the media hasn't helped. Whatever their objections, making personal threats against members of the government does nothing to strengthen their cause in my eyes. I agree with Yog though, it seems weird to have a major political party endorsing this kind of behaviour. Then again, we have the British National Party so... :uhoh

I can't really wrap my mind around the mindset that these people must have though, which I guess is part of having been raised under a democratic socialist government, with the National Health Service and so on. The attitudes of the "average" Brit and American (if we can imagine that there is such a thing) have always seemed drastically different to me, but I suppose that's down to our culture, history, etc.

[Park Kraken]

How the hell in a state that is so full of insane is there actual resonable Republicans??????

My first response to that statement: :partyhard

My second response: Define 'Insane'. <!-- / message -->

[General Dan]

Tampa area Republicans (and Tampa people in general) are much more moderate than some of the other areas of the state.

This may be true but still the general Tampa area as a whole, judging by the interactions I have on a daily basis, should be cordoned off and sunk into the sea.

[Darth Turbogeek]

BTW, I'm kind of curious about the opinions of our non-US posters as to the whole tea party thingie. Is that just uniquely American stupidity, or is it something common to all countries?


Oh there's morons in every country, let me tell you about the racist bigots called One Nation here that actually got some people elected....... thankfully their brand of racist shithead was quickly seen for what it was and the party dissolved into the ozze where it belongs.

The Tea Party thing tho is a special kind of fucked up crazy.


My second response: Define 'Insane'.
Lives in Florida.

I think Morgan's family are the sole sane people in the entire state. Mr Evanar is insane, just my kind of insane.

[Jedi Master Carr]

The Tea Party are just wackos, I hear their garbage and it makes me sick. I can't understand how any rational person could support them. As for other countries well I do remember the National Front Party in France making a big splash back in 2002 led by this racist
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jean-Marie_Le_Pen
I would say the Tea Party resembles them but they are just more vocal right now.

[Park Kraken]

This may be true but still the general Tampa area as a whole, judging by the interactions I have on a daily basis, should be cordoned off and sunk into the sea.

That's funny, most of the people around here feel the same way about most of California. :rolleyes

[Sanis Prent]

This may be true but still the general Tampa area as a whole, judging by the interactions I have on a daily basis, should be cordoned off and sunk into the sea.

That's funny, most of the people around here feel the same way about most of California. :rolleyes

I think I'd actually rather keep California, which is saying a lot.

Californian politics are probably crazier but Floridians individually are way more insane / assholes

[Darth Viscera]

Now that they've sent him death threats, it seems that the tea klux klan is planning to protest at the home of Congressman Steve Driehaus on sunday. AT HIS HOME! Where his wife sleeps, and his children play with their toys.

House Minority Leader Boehner is saying that Congressman Driehaus is a dead man.


" (http://corner.nationalreview.com/post/?q=MTc1OWI4MjFkY2Y5YWQ5Y2MxMmYxZDc2MDM5N2QxNmM=)Ta ke Steve Driehaus, for example. He may be a dead man. He can’t go home to the west side of Cincinnati." (http://corner.nationalreview.com/post/?q=MTc1OWI4MjFkY2Y5YWQ5Y2MxMmYxZDc2MDM5N2QxNmM=)

What a lovely man John "Hell no you can't!" Boehner is.

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[Park Kraken]

Californian politics are probably crazier but Floridians individually are way more insane / assholes

Please don't get us mixed up with the tourists from out of state. We may be insane, but by and large most Floridians that are considered assholes are just people who recently moved here from other states.

Come to think of it, a major reason for our insanity might be having to put up with the driving we have to deal with from tourists. With New Yorkers and Michiganers by far being the worst drivers.

Almost every single near miss this winter I've had is with some idiot sporting a 'New York' tag.

Although it would be nice if the people with 'Ontario' tags learned what the gas pedal is used for. <!-- / message --><!-- sig -->

[Dasquian Belargic]

Are you telling me that the French are cheese eating surrender monkeys, that the Germans are fascist sausage gobblers and the Irish booze-addled rogues? My word!



Let's not get off topic here ;)

[Lilaena De'Ville]

The French are cheese eating surrender monkeys. :colbert

Whatever one believes about this particular health care bill, threatening people and invading their family's personal privacy is a huge HUGE no-no. :|

[Morgan Evanar]

This may be true but still the general Tampa area as a whole, judging by the interactions I have on a daily basis, should be cordoned off and sunk into the sea.

That's funny, most of the people around here feel the same way about most of California. :rolleyes

I think I'd actually rather keep California, which is saying a lot.

Californian politics are probably crazier but Floridians individually are way more insane / assholesCrazier as in off the wall maybe, but not crazier as in more deceitful, malicious, under-handed and dirty. Florida politics are some of the worst in the nation. We have all of the NY/Boston style corruption with none of the subtleness that makes theirs notable and interesting. If I were AG I'd probably be removed from office in a blink for doing my job.


Californian politics are probably crazier but Floridians individually are way more insane / assholes I wish it were so but it is not. South Florida is a cesspool of awful selfishness, the middle of the state is full of delusional Midwesterners of the Mouse Cult, Tampa is... I dunno, Clearwater is damn scientolgists, and Jacksonville is hicktastic. The undeveloped parts of the state are even more hicktastic/crazy.


The French are cheese eating surrender monkeys. :rolleyes

[Loklorien s'Ilancy]

My own uncle defriended me on FB just because of an offhand comment I made about this whole '1776-2010: we had a good run' mindset being fatalist. Politics shouldn't be thicker than blood :mad

[Darth Viscera]

does your uncle have extremely reliable health insurance?

[Loklorien s'Ilancy]

I can guarantee you it's better than mine.

[Darth Viscera]

Then he's probably paying like $11,000 a year for it. Tell him to think less with his honker and more with his tooter!

[Loklorien s'Ilancy]

I'm mostly just massively insulted by it. The behavior of the people that don't agree with this healthcare deal is atrocious.

[Darth Viscera]

Some people are just impervious to reason. Many of my family members on my father's side are uninsured, and even when they experience family getting sick, going to the hospital, and coming home still sick and with a bill for $100,000 (in the deep south, where $100,000 will get you a house), they still see universal health care as communism and anti-american and such.

They'll just have to take their health care reform medicine, even if it tastes bitter.

[Loklorien s'Ilancy]

Look what I found!

The full text of the bill! (http://thomas.loc.gov/cgi-bin/query/D?c111:7:./temp/~c111nUQoQs::)

I'm seriously considering printing this bad boy up.

[Lilaena De'Ville]

I don't understand why the bill has other, non-health care stuff crammed into it. Like increasing Pell grants. What?! Just because its thousands of pages long doesn't mean you can just hide stuff in there.

Oh wait, it does.

[Darth Viscera]

Don't worry, the increase of funding to Pell Grants is more than undone by all the drastic reductions in public school funding nationwide and new 4-day school weeks due to state budget shortfalls :p

I agree though, they shouldn't put unrelated stuff in bills. It's just one of the retarded things that our crappy house and senate does that should be stopped but probably won't be because :effort:.

[Darth Turbogeek]

I don't understand why the bill has other, non-health care stuff crammed into it. Like increasing Pell grants. What?! Just because its thousands of pages long doesn't mean you can just hide stuff in there.

Oh wait, it does.

So uhhhhh........

Every single bill in the US comes with riders and other shit embedded in it. That's like US politics 101.

The Republicans were particularly crap at it, hiding pork in Iraq appropriations would be a good place to start. If you are going to B&M about this (Which is actually a completely legitimate complaint, why the fuck ARE riders allowed?????) you really need to scrap the whole system and start again.

[Darth Viscera]

...you really need to scrap the whole system and start again.

Yeah, we really do. There are so many things built into our system of government that are designed to inhibit actual democracy (read: one man, one vote, whoever gets more votes wins, etc) that we're just going to be stuck in an endless failure cascade of varying speed until we have a new constitutional convention.

[Lilaena De'Ville]

Duh I KNOW there is stuff hidden in nearly every bill. I think its dumb.

[Figrin D'an]

The Tea Party are just wackos, I hear their garbage and it makes me sick. I can't understand how any rational person could support them.


As much as I personally agree that the Tea Party is in wacko far-right territory, I know a great number of people (including co-workers and family members) whom are generally pretty rational people in most contexts, yet openly agree with much of what the Tea Party people are saying. It's disturbing and sad, because these are not people who fit the stereotype that is typically assigned to a far right-wing group like this.

I also find that when in the company of the aforementioned, I tend to not say anything when politics is discussed, because there is an pervasive mentality of "If you're not with us, then you're against us," and people who don't agree are "the enemy." Not fellow Americans, who live and work in the same neighborhoods and simply have a different opinion on how to make the country better... we're "the enemy." We're somehow made of evil and fail and are un-American. And this is the attitude shown at times toward someone like me, who is a moderate on the typical US political spectrum. I can't imagine what stout Democrats have to put up with at times.


I really want to believe that things like the Tea Party are like a terrible fad that will slowly fade away, but it's pretty hard right now see it going away, not as long as they are fed with misinformation and lies by talking mouths like Glenn Beck, Rush Limbaugh, Sean Hannity and Sarah Palin.

[Darth Viscera]

I really want to believe that things like the Tea Party are like a terrible fad that will slowly fade away, but it's pretty hard right now see it going away, not as long as they are fed with misinformation and lies by talking mouths like Glenn Beck, Rush Limbaugh, Sean Hannity and Sarah Palin.

There should really be some accountability for people like that. The same way that you can't yell "fire!" in a crowded movie theater, or set a brush fire and wander off as the ensuing firestorm engulfs the countryside, you shouldn't be able to openly convince your crazy viewers to polish their shotguns, walk out of their trailer homes, and go pay your political rivals a visit. You can't tell people "the democrats are trying to KILL YOUR GRANDMA!" and then act surprised when they do something violent.

[Loklorien s'Ilancy]

...
talking mouths like Glenn Beck, Rush Limbaugh, Sean Hannity and Sarah Palin.

Sometimes when I get off work I turn on Glenn Beck out of morbid and perverse curiosity. I can hardly make it five minutes because there's so much vitriol that he spews.

[Rutabaga]

There are 2 aspects to this whole thing that still just drive me crazy. The first one is the self-identified Christian pro-lifers that have been so vocal about their opposition to this new law. I've actually heard some of them claim that Jesus would be against this if he were still here. Um...what? The same Jesus who said "whatsoever you do to the least of my brothers, you do unto me"? The Jesus who healed the sick without demanding proof of insurance? And why is there such a continued emphasis on in utero life and a complete disregard to the life of the already-born? Plus, as I'm sure some of you have already heard, some of these people have left really vile voicemails on Democratic congress members' phones. Perhaps the most notable one was for Bart Stupak...you know, I'm no fan of this guy, but I still felt bad for him when I heard this voicemail where a man said he hoped Stupak would start bleeding out of his ass, get cancer, and die. Woo yeah, that's some real pro-life stuff there, my friend.

The second thing that drives me crazy is the young people who say they don't need insurance so they don't want it. I've been in nursing for nearly 15 years now, and I've seen plenty of young people who didn't plan on getting in a horrible car accident, having a heart attack and needing open heart surgery, having a massive brain aneurysm, etc. So it just makes me cringe when I hear young people make those statements about not needing insurance.

I'm still convinced that historians are going to look back at this period in a hundred years and wonder just what the hell was wrong with all of us.

[Darth Viscera]

There are 2 aspects to this whole thing that still just drive me crazy. The first one is the self-identified Christian pro-lifers that have been so vocal about their opposition to this new law. I've actually heard some of them claim that Jesus would be against this if he were still here. Um...what? The same Jesus who said "whatsoever you do to the least of my brothers, you do unto me"? The Jesus who healed the sick without demanding proof of insurance? And why is there such a continued emphasis on in utero life and a complete disregard to the life of the already-born? Plus, as I'm sure some of you have already heard, some of these people have left really vile voicemails on Democratic congress members' phones. Perhaps the most notable one was for Bart Stupak...you know, I'm no fan of this guy, but I still felt bad for him when I heard this voicemail where a man said he hoped Stupak would start bleeding out of his ass, get cancer, and die. Woo yeah, that's some real pro-life stuff there, my friend.

The second thing that drives me crazy is the young people who say they don't need insurance so they don't want it. I've been in nursing for nearly 15 years now, and I've seen plenty of young people who didn't plan on getting in a horrible car accident, having a heart attack and needing open heart surgery, having a massive brain aneurysm, etc. So it just makes me cringe when I hear young people make those statements about not needing insurance.

I'm still convinced that historians are going to look back at this period in a hundred years and wonder just what the hell was wrong with all of us.

It's always heart-warming to find christians who actually follow christian teachings. You know, care for the poor, feed the hungry, don't be super greedy, that sort of thing. My mother is a social worker, and she always has tragic tales to tell me. The one that I found most heart-wrenching was a woman who is 26 years old and has 4 kids, and recently she injured her back to such an extent that she lost her job and will never be able to work again. Unable to work, she quickly ran out of money and was unable to feed her children. She applied for food stamps, and was told that the food stamp office would take 3 weeks to get around to looking at her application. 3 weeks is a long time to go without food. Eventually, they just flat out denied her application for food stamps. What do the republicans say about Americans starving? "Oh, hunger is a great motivator. Hunger will motivate them to go out and get a job, the lazy bastards. Hunger builds character!" If Jesus still walked the earth, he'd beat the shit out of the crazy republican bitch who says these things (Cynthia Davis from Missouri) for being so heartless.

The catholic church recently threatened Washington D.C., saying that if D.C. made gay marriage legal, the church would drop all the social services it offers now, services which are made possible through local government funding. Or something to that effect. How very compassionate of them.

Hopefully those kids are actually eligible for health insurance, and if so they should get it. But with the health insurance companies requiring that you be an aryan superman to buy their product, it's getting harder and harder just to get it.

As a historian, I can tell you that it won't take me 100 years to wonder what the hell is wrong with all of us. Our government is bribed by big business, our people are ignorant from watching Fox News, our first reaction to a budget crisis is to cut funding to public schools (because you know, American children are so fucking overeducated already), we squander our money on health insurance that doesn't insure your access to health care and on a military that costs more than a trillion dollars a year and deploys troops to countries that we haven't been at war with in 65 years, or ever. Jesus christ, are we still occupying the halls of Montezuma and the shores of Tripoli too? And every single restaurant I go to illuminates every single booth with a 60w incandescent light bulb! WTF is wrong with these idiots? Fluorescent bulbs cost $0.75 at the grocery store across the street! Oh, and we outsource all our jobs to countries where the workers are allowed to work for slave wages, because who needs a middle class anyway.

[Lilaena De'Ville]

Yes, but which half? :ohno

I don't want my tax dollars paying for people's abortions. Hopefully the EO Obama signed yesterday (to clear up something they said was already in the bill? Its a little confusing) will make sure this does not happen.

[Morgan Evanar]

Yes, but which half? :ohno

I don't want my tax dollars paying for people's abortions. Hopefully the EO Obama signed yesterday (to clear up something they said was already in the bill? Its a little confusing) will make sure this does not happen.Oh no abortions. I'm more afraid of dying from our shitty health system if I get sick because I have no insurance in 2 days.

It's already in the bill, jackass.

[Lilaena De'Ville]

It hurts my feelings when you call me a jackass.

Really it does.

[Darth Turbogeek]

I'm still convinced that historians are going to look back at this period in a hundred years and wonder just what the hell was wrong with all of us.

Idiocracy will be a history documentary and no one will care inside the USA

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Idiocracy

Believe me, almost all the rest of the world is wondering what the hell is wrong with the USA already. It's unbelievable that utter cretins like Beck and Palin could get a voice at all.

Sarah Palin, an intellectual retard, can hardly fucking read and knows exactly zero about anything was the VP candidate for crying out loud! How can this be not a joke???

[Dasquian Belargic]

I don't want my tax dollars paying for people's abortions. Hopefully the EO Obama signed yesterday (to clear up something they said was already in the bill? Its a little confusing) will make sure this does not happen.

This raises an interesting question for me. I know that Obama had to make assurances with regard to the new bill and abortion, but what about birth control? Birth control pills come free as part of the UK NHS. Has there been anything mentioned about this for the US?

[Rutabaga]

It hurts my feelings when you call me a jackass.

Really it does.

I sincerely hope you get an apology. That was really uncalled for. :(

My understanding on the executive order issue is this...the bill clearly did not allow federal funding for abortion. However, many people (perhaps most especially Bart Stupak) continued to insist that it was in there. So I believe the executive order was offered as a means of really getting the point across.

Despite all this, though, there are people who are not convinced and still claim it's going to happen. Some people will never be persuaded, even when it's shown to them in black and white.

[Yog]

I sincerely hope you get an apology. That was really uncalled for. :(
Yeah, name calling is really unnecessary. :(

For the record, I think it's perfectly legitimate to want a smaller government and being pro life, even though I don't agree with it. Those are ideological valid ideas.

[Darth Viscera]

This raises an interesting question for me. I know that Obama had to make assurances with regard to the new bill and abortion, but what about birth control? Birth control pills come free as part of the UK NHS. Has there been anything mentioned about this for the US?

If you want birth control, you may have to pay full price out of pocket (only half of insurance plans cover birth control pills). Most of the insurance plans do cover viagra, though.

A 1-month supply of Yaz will run you $78.30.

[Yog]

An open letter to conservatives (http://tpmcafe.talkingpointsmemo.com/talk/blogs/americandad/)

Something to ponder about.

[Park Kraken]

Believe me, almost all the rest of the world is wondering what the hell is wrong with the USA already. It's unbelievable that utter cretins like Beck and Palin could get a voice at all.

Sarah Palin, an intellectual retard, can hardly fucking read and knows exactly zero about anything was the VP candidate for crying out loud! How can this be not a joke???

Unfortunatly, there is always a second side to a coin, and that includes the coin called freedom of speech. <!-- / message -->

[Yog]

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Rep. Alan Grayson arguing for a vote for HR 4789, a bill to allow anyone to buy into Medicare at cost. Essentially, a public option. The bill got 80 co-signers already in the house.

Republicans might like it is a 4 page bill with no riders included. :)

[Dasquian Belargic]

An open letter to conservatives (http://tpmcafe.talkingpointsmemo.com/talk/blogs/americandad/)

Something to ponder about.

Holy wow.


If you want birth control, you may have to pay full price out of pocket (only half of insurance plans cover birth control pills). Most of the insurance plans do cover viagra, though.

A 1-month supply of Yaz will run you $78.30.

:whaa

How does that make any sense, at all?

[Darth Viscera]

I'd buy into Medicare in a heartbeat. It's the pre-existing public option that has a 94% approval rate and isn't horribly castrated like the senate public option. Go Grayson go!

Here (http://thomas.loc.gov/cgi-bin/query/z?c111:H.R.4789:) is the bill. It's 3.5 pages long, it adds nothing to the deficit because everybody pays the cost of their own Medicare, and it adds competition to the private health insurance market and allows you to continue to choose whether you want public or private health insurance. Literally nobody should be against this bill, unless you're a health insurance company CEO whose only concern is losing customers.


:whaa

How does that make any sense, at all?

It makes no sense at all to me. It is clearly and abundantly retarded, but that's the insurance company and their employees, the U.S. Senate, for you.

[Darth Turbogeek]

Believe me, almost all the rest of the world is wondering what the hell is wrong with the USA already. It's unbelievable that utter cretins like Beck and Palin could get a voice at all.

Sarah Palin, an intellectual retard, can hardly fucking read and knows exactly zero about anything was the VP candidate for crying out loud! How can this be not a joke???

Unfortunatly, there is always a second side to a coin, and that includes the coin called freedom of speech. <!-- / message -->

Freedom of speech also has responsibility, which whenever MY RIGHTS TO SPEAK STUPID!!!!!!!!!! is bought up gets conviniently ignored. You do not have the right to yell fire in a theatre and guess what Beck and Palin are doing now?

You do not have the right to say anything you want. And even on political speech, which should be relatively protected, there is a responsibilty that the retarded right lack.


If you want birth control, you may have to pay full price out of pocket (only half of insurance plans cover birth control pills). Most of the insurance plans do cover viagra, though.

A 1-month supply of Yaz will run you $78.30.

WHAT? So they cover so old guys can get it up, but not to stop unwanted pregnancies?????

How fucked up is that?

Birth control is covered under the public option here, so you pay 20 bucks a prescription.

[Sanis Prent]

Well, rubbers aren't covered for anything here, then again, Birth control does sort of have other good side-effects that I figure we'd all be able to agree on.

[Rutabaga]

An open letter to conservatives (http://tpmcafe.talkingpointsmemo.com/talk/blogs/americandad/)

Something to ponder about.

I have just one thing to say:

AMEN. :clap

[Loklorien s'Ilancy]

... authorize the rape of children in Iraqi prisons to coerce their parents into providing information

This. This right here. All of that other stuff is horrendous and hypocritical enough, but to authorize this absolutely and utterly reprehensible action is what does it for me. No wonder other countries hate us. I'm truly speechless and ashamed :(

[Rutabaga]

... authorize the rape of children in Iraqi prisons to coerce their parents into providing information

This. This right here. All of that other stuff is horrendous and hypocritical enough, but to authorize this absolutely and utterly reprehensible action is what does it for me. No wonder other countries hate us. I'm truly speechless and ashamed :(

I agree completely. One of the aspects of these extreme right-wingers that I just detest with a passion is this idea of American exceptionalism. The constant harping that America is the greatest nation that God has ever put on earth! (I'm looking at YOU, Sean Hannity.) This is nationalism, NOT patriotism. It's extreme narcissism. And it truly is one of the reasons why other countries hate us.

I have news for these people. America is NOT the greatest country that history has ever seen on earth. It's far from it. I'm sure that if I said this out in the open among strangers, I'd be called all kinds of names and get pelted with rotten tomatoes, I'd probably be told that I should leave if I hate this country so much, stuff like that. But I feel safe to make the pronouncement here...I trust all of you to understand where I'm coming from. :hug

And for the record, I do NOT hate this country. But there are times when I hang my head in EXTREME shame over what some people are doing in this country, ostensibly in my name.

Oh, and btw, Bill Maher totally kicked ass in his New Rules segment last night, with his advice to the Democrats. As soon as I can find a link to it, I'll post it here. Maher can be an insufferably smug dick sometimes, but he was totally spot on last night.

[Darth Viscera]

It seems reasonable to me that anyone who loves their country should offer constructive criticism when it does something wrong, as you do. I'd like to see America become the greatest country in the world, but we're far from that point. Perhaps we're the greatest country in the world for billionaires to live in (which is why they all want to live here), but for the rest of us, the bottom 99% minority, this is one of the most troubled countries in the western world.

[Park Kraken]

but for the rest of us, the bottom 99% minority, this is one of the most troubled countries in the western world.

^This, this right here is one of the funniest statements I've read in the past couple of days. No matter how bad it is for us, compared to how easy we may have had it in the years previous, this is nothing compared to what other people go through in some of the other countries in the Western Hemisphere. <!-- / message -->

[Darth Viscera]

Let me rephrase that, then. This is one of the most troubled countries amongst first world nations. Obviously I wasn't saying that we're as bad off as Haiti, for instance.

Any country where you can starve to death, or die for lack of medical care, is a troubled one indeed.

[Darth Turbogeek]

^This, this right here is one of the funniest statements I've read in the past couple of days. No matter how bad it is for us, compared to how easy we may have had it in the years previous, this is nothing compared to what other people go through in some of the other countries in the Western Hemisphere. <!-- / message -->


Wanna make a bet?

There are literally millions in the USA who live in conditions that have no right to exist in a western country, let alone the so called economic superpower. The one thing that really struck me in 2005 croosing the USA was the outright third world conditions too many people are in. Conditions that just do not exist here in Aussieland for instance. And this in a country where where the biggest medical problem these days is people dying from eating too much.

It would have to be worse now, especially in places like Michigan with 25% real unemployment.

[Jedi Master Carr]

The Tea Party are just wackos, I hear their garbage and it makes me sick. I can't understand how any rational person could support them.


As much as I personally agree that the Tea Party is in wacko far-right territory, I know a great number of people (including co-workers and family members) whom are generally pretty rational people in most contexts, yet openly agree with much of what the Tea Party people are saying. It's disturbing and sad, because these are not people who fit the stereotype that is typically assigned to a far right-wing group like this.

I also find that when in the company of the aforementioned, I tend to not say anything when politics is discussed, because there is an pervasive mentality of "If you're not with us, then you're against us," and people who don't agree are "the enemy." Not fellow Americans, who live and work in the same neighborhoods and simply have a different opinion on how to make the country better... we're "the enemy." We're somehow made of evil and fail and are un-American. And this is the attitude shown at times toward someone like me, who is a moderate on the typical US political spectrum. I can't imagine what stout Democrats have to put up with at times.


I really want to believe that things like the Tea Party are like a terrible fad that will slowly fade away, but it's pretty hard right now see it going away, not as long as they are fed with misinformation and lies by talking mouths like Glenn Beck, Rush Limbaugh, Sean Hannity and Sarah Palin.

I know what you mean, I have friends and colleagues that I don't dare talk politics too for the same reason. Honestly, I think I know how rational people get caught up into it, fear. It is the same with rise of Hitler and other fanatics. I am sure some of those Nazis were rational people and out of fear and other reasons they marched with that lunacy. Not sure if I am ready to label the Tea Party like Nazism but the fear mongering they do is reminiscent of it.

[Darth Viscera]

For those who are lucky enough to not find themselves living in poverty, times are getting tougher.

Wages for the middle class have remained stagnant or even decreased a little in the past 30-40 years, while wages for the top 1% earners have increased 700%. Now, take into account that the top 1% wealthiest people have 95% of all the wealth, and the bottom 99% have only 5% of the wealth. You'd think that the guys with 95% of the money would be paying at least 95% of the taxes, due to our nice, progressive income tax, right? Wrong. The top 400 earners paid only 16.62% in taxes in 2007, down from 30% in 1995. The top 1%, the guys with 95% of the money, pay only 43% of all the taxes. The bottom 99%, the guys with 5% of the money, pay 57% of the taxes. Middle-class, working americans are paying the taxes of the rich and creating an environment in which their own wages decline, while the wages of the super-rich billionaires increase.

Let the rich pay their own damn taxes! If they've got 95% of the money, let them pay 95% of the taxes, not 43%. Hell, let them pay 100% of the federal taxes for a while, until the middle class start getting those juicy wage increases.

[Rutabaga]

The Tea Party are just wackos, I hear their garbage and it makes me sick. I can't understand how any rational person could support them.


As much as I personally agree that the Tea Party is in wacko far-right territory, I know a great number of people (including co-workers and family members) whom are generally pretty rational people in most contexts, yet openly agree with much of what the Tea Party people are saying. It's disturbing and sad, because these are not people who fit the stereotype that is typically assigned to a far right-wing group like this.

I also find that when in the company of the aforementioned, I tend to not say anything when politics is discussed, because there is an pervasive mentality of "If you're not with us, then you're against us," and people who don't agree are "the enemy." Not fellow Americans, who live and work in the same neighborhoods and simply have a different opinion on how to make the country better... we're "the enemy." We're somehow made of evil and fail and are un-American. And this is the attitude shown at times toward someone like me, who is a moderate on the typical US political spectrum. I can't imagine what stout Democrats have to put up with at times.


I really want to believe that things like the Tea Party are like a terrible fad that will slowly fade away, but it's pretty hard right now see it going away, not as long as they are fed with misinformation and lies by talking mouths like Glenn Beck, Rush Limbaugh, Sean Hannity and Sarah Palin.

I know what you mean too, I have friends and colleagues that I don't dare talk politics too for the same reason. Honestly, I think I know how rational people get caught up into it, fear. It is the same with rise of Hitler and other fanatics. I am sure some of those Nazis were rational people and out of fear and other reasons they marched with that lunacy. Not sure if I am ready to label the Tea Party like Nazism but the fear mongering they do is reminiscent of it.

I know what you mean, I also avoid discussing politics with anyone unless I already know they share similar viewpoints. Civil discourse is absolutely out the window right now in a lot of cases, unfortunately. I can't even discuss anything with my mother...she sits and watches Fox News (which I call Faux News) all freaking day long. She is by nature someone who becomes easily anxious anyways, but sitting and watching Fox all day long just makes it worse. If she ever does say anything about the health care reform, I'm going to ask her when she's going to cut up her Medicare card and start refusing to accept her Social Security checks. My dad isn't nearly as bad as Mom is, but politics is still a completely verboten subject with him 99% of the time. Sometimes it amazes me that 2 pretty politically conservative parents turned out a Democratic Socialist like me.

And at work, I have now decided to stop using "who is the president?" as an orientation question when admitting a patient. I swear to God, at least half the time the cranky old white people I'm admitting don't answer the question in a straightforward way...they make derogatory comments and rude noises. I just want to scream at them that I wasn't asking a political question, I was just asking a simple question that required a simple answer. So instead of getting myself all riled up again, I just don't ask the question any more.

The whole fear thing is one of the things that I totally :shakefist at the Republicans for. Make no mistake, it's been used as a tactic on both sides of the aisle over the years, but Bush and Co. raised it to an art form. It is one of their worst legacies that we have become a nation of sniveling cowards who are frightened into paralysis over the boogeyman. The maturity level of supposed adults in this country is downright appalling at times.

*sigh*

Anywho, I finally found a link to video of Bill Maher's New Rules segment on Friday's show. This is most definitely NSFW, and yes, it's over the top at points, but overall, what he's saying is right on target.

http://videocafe.crooksandliars.com/heather/new-rule-you-cant-use-there-will-be-no-coo

[Darth Viscera]

Here (http://healthreform.kff.org/SubsidyCalculator.aspx#tableLinkDiv) is an ingenious little health reform subsidy calculator which will calculate how much you'll be paying for health insurance on January 1st 2014 when the exchange goes into effect, based on your income, your age, your family type, etc.