Columbus Hero or Villian

[Jedi Master Carr]

In honor of Columbus Day, I decided to post this poll because I am curious what people think. Columbus used to be honored as the discoverer of America. Now people see him a vile man who destroyed the native populations. What does everyone here think?

[Pierce Tondry]

Where's the "both" option?

Seriously, times were way different FIVE HUNDRED YEARS AGO. Anyone who fails to account for the change in human sensibilities during that period needs to have their head examined. Had Columbus lived in our day and seen Star Trek, I could see him modeling himself after James T Kirk or Jean Luc Picard.

[Dasquian Belargic]

I honestly do not know enough about American history to answer this. Pass?

:uhoh

[Jedi Master Carr]

Where's the "both" option?

Seriously, times were way different FIVE HUNDRED YEARS AGO. Anyone who fails to account for the change in human sensibilities during that period needs to have their head examined. Had Columbus lived in our day and seen Star Trek, I could see him modeling himself after James T Kirk or Jean Luc Picard.

Columbus was a moron though. He thought he was in China till the day he died. He was extremely racist, killing Natives who didn't corporate. And there is a quote where he said he was in favor of wiping the natves out who didn't cooperate in his desire for gold. Most historians today don't have anything favorable to say about him.

[Darth Turbogeek]

Where's the "both" option?

Seriously, times were way different FIVE HUNDRED YEARS AGO. Anyone who fails to account for the change in human sensibilities during that period needs to have their head examined. Had Columbus lived in our day and seen Star Trek, I could see him modeling himself after James T Kirk or Jean Luc Picard.

Columbus was a moron though. He thought he was in China till the day he died. He was extremely racist, killing Natives who didn't corporate. And there is a quote where he said he was in favor of wiping the natves out who didn't cooperate in his desire for gold. Most historians today don't have anything favorable to say about him.

Almost all explorers of the day - or hell most of Europe - would have thought exactly the same. It was 1492, not 2009 attitudes and actions were vastly different. How the blazes can you say that someone was a moron when utterly no one knew any different?

Hell, 30 years ago even half this stuff was seen as okay. Times change. We cant judge people that well without understanding the culture - to them our attitudes would be mindblowingly wrong and witchcraftery.

Okay so we are vastly more enlightened, doesnt make Columus stupid.

Explorers werent in it for the Star Trek Explore boldy, they are in it for the fame or fortune.

[Jedi Master Carr]

Where's the "both" option?

Seriously, times were way different FIVE HUNDRED YEARS AGO. Anyone who fails to account for the change in human sensibilities during that period needs to have their head examined. Had Columbus lived in our day and seen Star Trek, I could see him modeling himself after James T Kirk or Jean Luc Picard.

Columbus was a moron though. He thought he was in China till the day he died. He was extremely racist, killing Natives who didn't corporate. And there is a quote where he said he was in favor of wiping the natves out who didn't cooperate in his desire for gold. Most historians today don't have anything favorable to say about him.

Almost all explorers of the day - or hell most of Europe - would have thought exactly the same. It was 1492, not 2009 attitudes and actions were vastly different. How the blazes can you say that someone was a moron when utterly no one knew any different?

Hell, 30 years ago even half this stuff was seen as okay. Times change. We cant judge people that well without understanding the culture - to them our attitudes would be mindblowingly wrong and witchcraftery.

Okay so we are vastly more enlightened, doesnt make Columus stupid.

Explorers werent in it for the Star Trek Explore boldy, they are in it for the fame or fortune.
My point was that everybody puts Columbus on some pedestal thinking that he changed things that everybody thought the world was flat. That was a lie everybody educated knew the world was round. Columbus thought the world was smaller than it was and he could get to China. Other educated people knew that was false this was why Portugal, France, and England told him to get lost because they knew that no voyage could make it to China. Columbus was a fool he thought he was in China even when after he explored the region. Other explorers who followed realized this was a new land and he was so incomplete or arrogant that he thought he was still in china. Also he committed genocide this was a fact I will quote from Alan Taylor The American Colonies, "he distributed Indian captives among the colonists to work on their plantations and to serve as sex slaves." This is a small taste at some of the actions that Columbus did. My point was he was no hero and I don't think he should be idolized with a holiday.
I really don't know if Columbus was a monster or not, we can only go by the few actions he committed. Part of me started this for discussion because of tomorrow and why he got a holiday.

[Loklorien s'Ilancy]

Columbus strikes me as being in the same vein as Tamerlane. A man is seen in different lights by different people.

[Droo]

I have to disagree with this notion that it was a different time and he didn't know any better. When was the Bible written again? Man has been capable of sound moral judgement long before the fifteenth century, and no, I'm not suggesting the Bible is perfect by any means. I am talking about the capacity to comprehend morality. The times were different but the humans travelling the world weren't savages, in fact they were educated and culpable of their actions.

Having said that, I don't know enough about Columbus to have an opinion on him myself so I'll not vote.

[Jedi Master Carr]

I agree with you Droo. Sometimes you have to admit people were wrong regardless of the time period. Oh I saw this story and found it fitting and also kind of relieved that Columbus is taught differently in school and more attention is placed on the natives.
http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20091011/ap_on_re_us/us_teaching_columbus
Still, think they should change the name of the day, maybe Native American Day or something.

[Darth Turbogeek]

My point was that everybody puts Columbus on some pedestal thinking that he changed things that everybody thought the world was flat. That was a lie everybody educated knew the world was round.

Actually that's not true. Only the Catholic church thought that - it was accepted as obvious the world was a sphere or a circle by most until some idiot Pope forgot to read his Septegut. Even said so in the Old Testament. The Muslim world had the world as round.


I have to disagree with this notion that it was a different time and he didn't know any better. When was the Bible written again? Man has been capable of sound moral judgement long before the fifteenth century, and no, I'm not suggesting the Bible is perfect by any means. I am talking about the capacity to comprehend morality. The times were different but the humans travelling the world weren't savages, in fact they were educated and culpable of their actions.

And exactly who read the bible at that time? That would be..... no one. Who studied the Bible? No one. Did the Church give a rip? Nope, they deliberatly kept it that way. Did they concern themselves? No.

As I said, it wasnt 2009. I'm not giving them a free pass but they didnt concern themselves with such things - given how it's only been when humanity learned how to feed more than a handful of nobels we had the luxury of poeple being able to explore such issues in great detail.

Even the dissemination of the moral codes of the Bible has changed quite greatly in my lifetime as the ability to access study materials has grown as well as the detachment from dogmas. The things I understand today as a Christian are very different to 30 years ago - the sheer fact I am divorced and can walk into (some) church with no problem and be accepted now pretty much says it all. I can even marry in the church if I was so incluned to. I can attend with my partner even without being married or even be gay.

It's rather amazing just how much things have changed in my lifetime.

[Rossos Atrapes]

Earlier - much earlier - I chose neither. Now I know that some people here disagree with that, so I'll lay out my logic, which is part 'this is 1492, different culture', and part other things.

Now, morality from the view of the Church and Christians was quite a mixed bag from its inception. For example, one of the first controversies of the Church was whether to accept those Christians who, during the persecutions, had apostasized and then once the general climate became milder to Christians came back, or whether to say 'fuck em, they had their chance and they lost it'. The 'fuck em' crowd was in part quite influential, vocal, and such for some period of time, though not for particularly long, for obvious reasons. In any event, morality wasn't much emphasized in Christian thought until it was being treated separately for some time by philosophers after the 'Enlightenment' (so-called); the highest good would be the conversion of some non-Christian, and that by converting them their methods of conversion would have been proven 'right'. But onward with the post.

Columbus was an Italian, who was working as an 'explorer-for-hire' during the beginning of the age of Portugese ascendency on the high seas. He at first wanted to sail west to India for them, since they had the best ships, but they turned him down. So he turned to the Spanish, who had most recently driven out the Moors, the Muslims who had controlled the Iberian peninsula since they had driven through Africa in the early 700s and onward. Christianity had evolved since the Late Antique period into a two branched tree: the Roman Catholic West, and the Orthodox East. The West had the Roman Church through the centuries, and the East had the Byzantine Empire, which had deflected extra-European influence from the West for some thousand years to Columbus's time, where it was now wiped out, and that meant for some that the Eastern Orthodox were wiped out, since they had based their culture on the dominant influence being a Christian Empire. It seemed now that the Roman Church had free reign to spread over the whole world, and also it seemed like it would have to, as the Muslims were still quite powerful and rich themselves. There'd already been a showdown between the two during the Crusades, and neither had proven completely victorious, and it was difficult for either side to convert the other. But the only Christian (if heretical as they considered them) influence on the East had been wiped out, and Roman Catholic Europe was high on its own power and influence.

But for Columbus, who is a particularly interesting microcosm of this period, his faith and his other desires were inextricably mixed together. He was without a doubt motivated by greed, but the culture at the time was not one for people to mask their motivations in 'veils of righteousness', but that their righteous works in the name of the Lord would bring them prosperity and wealth. Anyone who wasn't a European, much less a Christian, was seen as 'someone else', or frequently 'something else'. Ethnocentrism was working through in a larger scale here.

Columbus operated with a mixed view of the natives as well. He considered them uncivilized, but also said that they (the ones he had met on Hispaniola) were altogether more peaceful and brotherly toward each other than any European Christians he had seen. Since they weren't Christians however, their land, and their souls, were fair game, and they didn't acknowledge a leader as the Europeans, or anyone else they knew, did. Therefore, to Columbus, they had no real leader and were then able to be subjected to the Spanish as opposed to meeting a King and establishing diplomatic relations with them. Depending on that meeting, the Spaniards may have gone elsewhere to continue their holy work of expanding the Kingdom of God (and by extension their own kingdom) and kept a trading relationship with the Natives which was likely, or they might have worked to conquer them, which was also likely. But since there was no King, there was no real need to do anything but claim the lands, and the peoples, for Spain.

One could continue with Cortéz and the Aztecs, or Francisco Pizarro González and the Inca, but that's a later time, which was much effected by this period. By this logic, I came to think of Columbus as neither a hero nor a villain, but simply one of a number of ambitious and very motivated men of his time, with his own flaws and admirable traits, though it was the flaws that were much highlighted by his life.

[Mitch]

The man was sent off to DIE with three of the worst ships Spain could offer, with crews full of criminals and other undesirables, and he not only crossed the Atlantic, but he came BACK.

Dude's a hero. End of story.

[Droo]

And exactly who read the bible at that time? That would be..... no one. Who studied the Bible? No one. Did the Church give a rip? Nope, they deliberatly kept it that way. Did they concern themselves? No.

That wasn't my point. I was using the Bible as an example to say thet there's evidence man, any man, has had the capacity for moral judgement for at least centuries prior to Columbus's day. Just because someone didn't have access to or hadn't read the Bible shouldn't suggest they are incapable of making the right decision. Regardless of the timeline, I don't believe they are exempt from judgement based upon the choices they made.

[Jedi Master Carr]

My point was that everybody puts Columbus on some pedestal thinking that he changed things that everybody thought the world was flat. That was a lie everybody educated knew the world was round.

Actually that's not true. Only the Catholic church thought that - it was accepted as obvious the world was a sphere or a circle by most until some idiot Pope forgot to read his Septegut. Even said so in the Old Testament. The Muslim world had the world as round.


I have to disagree with this notion that it was a different time and he didn't know any better. When was the Bible written again? Man has been capable of sound moral judgement long before the fifteenth century, and no, I'm not suggesting the Bible is perfect by any means. I am talking about the capacity to comprehend morality. The times were different but the humans travelling the world weren't savages, in fact they were educated and culpable of their actions.

And exactly who read the bible at that time? That would be..... no one. Who studied the Bible? No one. Did the Church give a rip? Nope, they deliberatly kept it that way. Did they concern themselves? No.

As I said, it wasnt 2009. I'm not giving them a free pass but they didnt concern themselves with such things - given how it's only been when humanity learned how to feed more than a handful of nobels we had the luxury of poeple being able to explore such issues in great detail.

Even the dissemination of the moral codes of the Bible has changed quite greatly in my lifetime as the ability to access study materials has grown as well as the detachment from dogmas. The things I understand today as a Christian are very different to 30 years ago - the sheer fact I am divorced and can walk into (some) church with no problem and be accepted now pretty much says it all. I can even marry in the church if I was so incluned to. I can attend with my partner even without being married or even be gay.

It's rather amazing just how much things have changed in my lifetime.
Actually, even the church thought the world was round. Maybe the common peasant thought the world was flat, but most of them probably didn't even think about. They had other things on their mind like their crops and just surviving.


The man was sent off to DIE with three of the worst ships Spain could offer, with crews full of criminals and other undesirables, and he not only crossed the Atlantic, but he came BACK.

Dude's a hero. End of story.

So that makes one a hero? There were worse circumstances than that and besides it isn't like he saved lives or something upon doing that. Also as I said he thought he was in China still when he was on a new continent till he died. He also didn't discover anything. I don't think the Indians thought they had just been discovered. They were living there for centuries doing just fine.

[Shadow Storm]

I don't think the Indians thought they had just been discovered. They were living there for centuries doing just fine.

Thats not really a sound arguement against discovery, because then that could be used to argue against everything else that's ever been discovered. To the people of Europe, who had no idea that such a people as these particular Indians or these lands even existed, Columbus's finds certainly amount to a discoverey.

[Lilaena De'Ville]

Yeah he only thought he was on China because no one in Europe (save maybe the Vikings? :lol) knew that the American continent even existed. So if you sail in one direction and hit land and the only land you know about in that direction is Asia, it stands to reason that you might think that was where you were.

Perhaps Columbus wasn't a super genius who spread health and happiness everywhere he went but he wasn't a moronic super villain either. This thread = :rolleyes

:)

[Darth Turbogeek]

That wasn't my point. I was using the Bible as an example to say thet there's evidence man, any man, has had the capacity for moral judgement for at least centuries prior to Columbus's day. Just because someone didn't have access to or hadn't read the Bible shouldn't suggest they are incapable of making the right decision. Regardless of the timeline, I don't believe they are exempt from judgement based upon the choices they made.

I answered your point. I responded to explain why your "point" was null and void. Long dead figures and historical actions arent answerable to our very different outlook on morality and situation.

The 20th Century is vastly different with it's historical figures as they did understand how wrong it was to genocide nations, yet did it anyway. Let alone the capable to destroy nations is far, FAR greater.

It seems that the more humans get a clue, the worse the destruction and murder gets.


Yeah he only thought he was on China because no one in Europe (save maybe the Vikings? :lol) knew that the American continent even existed. So if you sail in one direction and hit land and the only land you know about in that direction is Asia, it stands to reason that you might think that was where you were.

Perhaps Columbus wasn't a super genius who spread health and happiness everywhere he went but he wasn't a moronic super villain either. This thread =:rolleyes

Well wadda know, I agree with every word quoted right here.

[Figrin D'an]

I think the very fact that an honest, factual analysis of Columbus leads to serious debate about his place in and effect upon history makes it pretty clear that a US government holiday honoring him and the stories told to elementary school children about him need to be brought into question.

However, the US government would just assign a day off to another "holiday", such as Sweetest Day or something equally asinine.

[Jedi Master Carr]

Yeah he only thought he was on China because no one in Europe (save maybe the Vikings? :lol) knew that the American continent even existed. So if you sail in one direction and hit land and the only land you know about in that direction is Asia, it stands to reason that you might think that was where you were.

Perhaps Columbus wasn't a super genius who spread health and happiness everywhere he went but he wasn't a moronic super villain either. This thread = :rolleyes

:)

I never called him a villain my point was he has been an idealized to far over time, although it sounds like children are being taught different in school and that is refreshing. Also, read any historical work, I would argue most historians would have nothing good to say about Columbus. Oh about the vikings, people had heard those stories and I do wonder if there were educated people at the time who thought there might be a land mass. Most people just didn't think they would ever reach land before starving to death. In the end, I wanted to start a discussion about the man who doesn't really deserve a holiday.