Master Rank Discussion

[Captain Untouchable]

How are we viewing the role of a "Jedi Master", out of curiosity? I was reading through wookieepedia recently, and it turns out that the only prerequisite for becoming a Jedi Master is that your Padawan has passed the trials, and become a Knight. So, as soon as Anakin became a Knight, Obi-Wan became a Master automatically. There are instances of people being granted the rank of Master without having ever trained a Padawan, but apparently that's the principle behind it all.

It caught me by surprise, because I'd always assumed that being a Jedi Master was synonymous with being on the Jedi Council, but apparently not. :)

Based on that, Drin "turning down" the rank of Master would be a bit weird: might be seen as disrespectful to his former Padawan's memory, or whatever. However, turning down a leadership role / Council seat / something like that would have no bearing on Master status.

I think. At least, that's how I understand it. Unless Master in this context means something totally different. Jen, you know stuff: help me before I get confused. :lol


Oh. And, uh... Amos Iakona is a Padawan to Tionne Thanewulf ...who is a Knight, I think. :uhoh

[Drin Kizael]

Based on that, Drin "turning down" the rank of Master would be a bit weird: might be seen as disrespectful to his former Padawan's memory, or whatever.
Never had a padawn. He trained one youngling for awhile, and she ultimately became a Master no thanks to Drin (almost despite him really).

I saw the title "Master" as kind of like some x-degree black belt. Not in terms of fighting, but it depended on one's mastery of the Force in whatever form that took. In which case, Drin does not feel he deserves that anymore, for reasons I've alluded to in his background story.

Seeing a padawan through to his trials is a good benchmark for Master, sure. It definitely proves you're qualified to teach, which is another definition of Master in both martial arts and religion. It's never been synonymous with the Council, though. Qui-Gon was a Master.

[Captain Untouchable]

Aye, yeah. But if you infer entirely from the movies without having read any EU stuff, it isn't nearly so obvious. They use Master both as a term for an unmarried male, and for a Jedi Master; "Master Jedi" isn't the same as "Jedi Master".

According to the EU, seeing a Padawan through trials is the default way to automatically become a Master. There are a few special cases of Masters having been granted the rank by special decree of the Council, so I guess that would be how Drin got the rank.

*shrug* Just thought it was interesting, and worth getting some clarification on how Fans is using the term.

[Drin Kizael]

*shrug* Just thought it was interesting, and worth getting some clarification on how Fans is using the term.
So would I. Jenny? You out there?

[Captain Untouchable]

Apparently...


tehwofl: Our Internet has been disconnected :(

D'oh. :(

[Dasquian Belargic]

Crisis averted, for now...

Anyway, my understanding of the Jedi Master ranks stems mostly from OOC really. However people interpret the rank IC is down to them, i.e. whether you want to be a 'master' of many things or just just focus on certain elements of the Jedi archetype.

We don't really have a Council at present, so I'd say that has no bearing on the title - likewise there are no 'Trials' per say, though becoming a Master pre-reset usually meant you had trained a number of students through to Knight rank.

That being said, I'll update the list now :)

[Drin Kizael]

Well since it is not an IC rank, can you please put Drin Kizael on the list as a master. Thanks.

[Dasquian Belargic]

It is IC too, tho. I mean, Navaria gets called a Master, Daria is a Knight, etc.

[Captain Untouchable]

Anyway, my understanding of the Jedi Master ranks stems mostly from OOC really. However people interpret the rank IC is down to them, i.e. whether you want to be a 'master' of many things or just just focus on certain elements of the Jedi archetype.

By that, do you mean that anyone listed as a "Master" is expected to be an in-charge type person (OOC)... or just that it used to be that way: that's the origins from pre-Reset etc, and it just hasn't been changed?

It might be worth working out if we're gonna have a Council type doodad (or something else), so we can work out if "Jedi Master" needs to mean anything, if we need to put people like Navaria into a higher category, etc. :\

[Dasquian Belargic]

I guess I didn't explain myself clearly. Hmm...

By the rank stemming from OOC, I mean that OOC we would say "Ok, this character is ready to be a Master" rather than IC having other Jedi debate about it. So, OOC Dani was like "Okay, after this thread Navaria will have gone through her final Master trial" and the rest of us said "thumbs up!"

Right now, a Council doesn't make any sense to me. The group is still forming and there's no reason all the present Jedi couldn't contribute their opinions towards any group decision.

[Captain Untouchable]

I rewrote this five times, and its still long. Ick.

Just because the Wheel is new doesn't mean we don't need leadership. For starters, someone needs to interact with the Rebellion on supply and security issues. We effectively need a "President Roslin" at the very least. Beyond that though, we need to decide if we are actually going to try and form a "Quorum of Twelve", or if we're going to have a Quorum of Ships' Captains, just so that we can start moving characters in appropriate directions.

For example, if we aim towards a Jedi Council, that implies an ordered approach, and suggests we need some sort of hierarchy through the ranks. It might be worth thinking about what will qualify someone as a Knight or a Master in this climate. Barton Henning is a Padawan, but he was actually trained by the Jedi Order; Amos Iakona on the other hand is also a Padawan, but has only just started his training. Should they have the same rank, or should Henning default to Knight because he's actually had formal training? Following the same pattern, does someone like Tionne Thanewulf, Drin Kizael, or Ilias Nytrau - someone who passed the trials and was thus ratified as a Knight by the Jedi Council - deserve to default to Jedi Master, because they're the closest thing to seniority that we've got?

A Council isn't the only option, though. I'm not intimately familiar with EU, but I think Luke Skywalker declared himself Grandmaster at some point, and had a big Jedi convention on Endor or something. Are we going to level the playing field and have an open forum? If so, we'd need to formalise who the chairperson / speaker / Grandmaster / whatever was.

Another option would be to echo the Alliance Council. What about having a Jedi Watchman for every sector represented by the Alliance? Heck, we've even got the genuine Watchman for Corellia; we'd only need half a dozen more, which is less than the Jedi Council would have contained; and Master / Knight / rank / etc isn't nearly so important.

From that last bit especially arises the question of how involved with the Rebellion are we planning to get? Are we aiming to keep ourselves independent, or are we going to throw our backing behind the restoration of the Republic? If so, we need to start getting more chummy, etc.


Not saying we need to decide everything, pick out names, and start deciding on colours and decor for the Council chambers; but it might be worth picking a vague direction, just so we know what we're aiming for: are we aiming for "Jedi Order", or "Jedi Chaos"? And, like the thing that led us to this point, to decide what each rank actually means.

[Navaria Tarkin]

I think it would make more sense for the Jedi, IC, to discuss what they feel is the right course of action. Some might not like any of your ideas presented and the group is still quite small. Protecting their numbers is Navaria's priority now and already works closely with the Rebellion Officers assigned to the Wheel as liaison.

[Tionne Thanewulf]

I agree with Navaria; we should have an IC Jedi congregation where all of our active Jedi would meet up and discuss things - that way we would value EVERYBODY'S input on the matter via an open debate and then derive a solution IC. That way we would avoid delegating ''power'' to only a few individuals and have all the other lower ranked chars just having to take whatever is served.

For instance, Amos has military experience and knows Imperial ways quite well - that has to count for something too, right?
I'd say the major flaw of the old Jedi Order would have been this hard hierarchy that allowed for little flexibility. i.e.traditionalism and seniority. With so few of us, it would make sense that everybody has an IC say.

Also, my opinion is that leaders should be those people who OTHERS recognize as leaders IC. That way nobody should feel excluded or under the pressure to play according to unflexible rules imposed by somebody.

But generally, I agree. We need to set a course where Jedi are heading. :)

My two cents.

[Captain Untouchable]

Obviously yeah, we're still quite a small group, so nothing big and fancy is called for as yet. I just don't think we should use that as a reason to avoid at least thinking about where we're going. A lack of plan is a sure-fire way to make sure that things don't go anywhere, 'cause no one will know what's meant to be happening, things won't happen in case they step on anyone's toes, etc.

Not advocating any one option in particular: I just think its something that we need to at least start thinking about. :)

[Dasquian Belargic]

I agree with Nav. I have more thoughts on this which I'll edit I here later!

[Captain Untouchable]

Just a random thought that popped into my head: how large a group are we actually assuming the Jedi to be? I had it in my head that we had a plethora of unnamed NPCs kicking around with us; is that not the case?

Probably totally confused and wrong... I just assumed that, since we have the majority of the active Jedi characters on Fans at the moment, we were sort of assembled. ^_^;

[Dasquian Belargic]

Ultimately, we will obviously have to agree OOC on how the group should evolve, who should be 'in charge' and so on but to get to that point, I think an IC debate would make the most sense. I myself have 3 chars with 3 very conflicting opinions on the Jedi and the Wheel's role in the future of the "Order" ;)

I'm happy to start a thread for us all.

As an aside, we actually had a small meeting of sorts already: http://www.sw-fans.net/forum/showthread.php?t=19618 but everyone else stopped posting :(

[Captain Untouchable]

Isn't that a bit backwards, though? Don't we need to work out what we're doing OOC, before we start posting about it IC? :huh

I can just see a thread where we go in blind winding up with the wheels spinning, and not actually getting anywhere. :\

[Barton Henning]

Like I said, I have three characters opinions on how the group should evolve - there isn't any one I prefer, so I am happy to leave it up to my IC-selves discussion to decide :mneh

[Navaria Tarkin]

To force an OOC decision IC, with possible conflicts, doesn't seem like a good idea. Might split up an already splinted faction based upon circumstance.

[Captain Untouchable]

Hmm. Okay. That just seems like a really weird way of doing it; I'd have expected us to sit down and say "Okay, Barton is probably going to think this, while Navaria might suggest that," so that we know what we're aiming for. :\

I mean, personally, my character wouldn't have anything to weigh in with. It wouldn't be in his nature to contribute, because he's so stoic, silent, and basically has no experience whatsoever with this side of things. Does that mean I either have to have no input, or be uncharacteristic in order to weigh in at all? :huh

[Dasquian Belargic]

Alright then... if you have an idea for how you want to see the Jedi evolve as a faction, post a summary of said idea :)

[Navaria Tarkin]

Of course you have input duh :p

It is just the last time we tried to plan things ahead of time, things fell apart. Seriously. Having anything set in stone at such a fledgling stage of things might do more harm then good. I rather just RP it out for a change and see what happens.

More people might want to say something, but the majority thus far want to just simply RP it out. That is usually what we do after everyone has their say. I know for the longest time, since the idea of the Jedi running amuck, we wanted to keep things rather loose and free. So OOC yes, you have a say. But what happens IC is really for the characters to decide - at least how I would like to see it. Things can always be hashed out in here, but frankly - Navaria has no opinion until see hears what the other Jedi have to say ... and to say I would do so and so, and I would this and that would be better served in RP then doing double work :)

Talking about at length kinda kills the stories :\

[Captain Untouchable]

*shrug* Whatever, then, if that's what people want to do. :\

[Dasquian Belargic]

Dude, post your thoughts. You wanted to share ideas and hammer out what we're gonna do with the groups future, so share :) Nav and I aren't the only ones with a say in what happens here.

[Navaria Tarkin]

My post was my opinion it is not law. And if you would have read it thoroughly, I said to share your thoughts and that in the end, just discussing it IC might not be the majority.

So ... please don't take differing opinions personally. We all can't agree on everything.

[Captain Untouchable]

I'm not taking anything personally; if the majority of people want to have things evolve IC, then that's fair enough. Don't mistake me backing down for being offended. :)

[Navaria Tarkin]

And what I am trying to say is that what might seem to be the case, might not be in the end, and should still offer your opinions. Things could change. Nothing is set in stone XD

[Dasquian Belargic]

Alrighty, then. Thoughts, everyone else?

[Captain Untouchable]

I was hoping to spark some healthy discussion, is all. >_<

The only thought I had was that it might be cool to have a Watchman for each Alliance Sector (there are seven, I think), maybe with a Grandmaster to supervise over things. Watchmen can be Knights or Masters; figured that gives us more flex of who gets to be in charge. Plus, we already have one for Corellia anyway. Purely an idea I like for the novelty: no idea how practical it would be.

I'll go with whatever; I'm just nervous about going in blind. A lot of my threads seem to die because people aren't sure what is meant to be happening. :ohno

[Droo]

I'll get some of my thoughts down here after Autumnwatch. :)

[Droo]

Okay, I have a guest tonight and consequently I won't be able to prattle on as much as I might like to here but my immediate thought on this matter is this: whatever we go with in the end, I'd like it to be far removed from anything we've seen in the Star Wars movies or the expanded universe.

Based on my limited knowledge of EU stories, I may be wrong in my assumption that nothing quite like the setup we have in our little roleplaying world, with the state of the Jedi, the Wheel, the Empire and the Rebellion, has ever happened before so we are liberated from any neccessity to adhere to tradition. Is there any need for Ye Olde Jedi Council?

That said, it's a wasted opportunity not to establish some kind of infrastructure within the Jedi community simply because it will spark conflict and story. Personalities are bound to clash and then there is the question of what will be the Jedi's first order of business? I think I'm stating the obvious here so I'll move on.

In brief, I think what will dictate how the Jedi collective will operate depends on the principles of the Jedi themselves. Our characters, given their varied backgrounds, histories, and tutilage in the ways of the Force, have vastly differing opinions on what makes a Jedi and what a Jedi should do and what is best for the group as a whole. Instead of homogenising the group under one linear infrastructure, we could accomodate the various methodologies and ideologies of its members.

Think of the four Houses of Hogwarts, and you'll be along the right lines. Something like that would promote a healthy spirit of competition and team rivalry within the group, too. I'll muse over this more and come back to it when I have a bit more time.

[Navaria Tarkin]

I must say, I'm kinda digging where Droo is going with this ...

[Ilias Nytrau]

What he said. And... what she said. :p

This is the summation of my 'weighing in' thus far.

[Dasquian Belargic]

I'm getting a little deja vu about this idea.. I'm sure it's been brought up before, but we just didn't feel that the faction was far enough along - or rather, all close enough together - to actally begin to illustrate the divisions.

Either way, I like the concept. Until the Rebellion transforms into the Republic, or at least begins to get itself on equal footing with the Empire, I can't imagine there being a 'stable' Jedi faction. Though I like the Watchmen idea, I suppose this is why I have difficulty seeing it materialise yet - as it would either require physically splitting the group, to send each Jedi to their planet, or if they were working out of the Wheel, splitting their focus/energies in a way that seems like it would create a lot of chaos in itself :ohno

We already tried to put down on a planet with Vortex, and as is symptomatic of the galaxy we are currently playing in, we were almost discovered there - so it seems natural to me that we keep with the moving base of operations, at least for now. I think there is still a lot to be explored with the Wheel, and if nothing else it allows us a certain amount of freedom in where we can go, what we can do and who can find us, since we are travelling with the Rebels (i.e. new members can come into the fold by acquiring ship co-ordinates, rather than having to explain how they knew about the super-duper secret base hidden from the Empire on some random planet :lol)

[Captain Untouchable]

The Watchman thing doesn't mean they have to be constantly off doing stuff, Jen: Yoda was a Watchman for example, and he spent almost all of his time on Coruscant. And at least two sectors - Alderaan and Corellia - aren't "Rebel Territory". If shizzle went down in their sector then sure... but yeah. The idea mostly came from echoing the Alliance Council, if we decided to have close cooperation between the groups, or whatever.

I'm a touch confused by Droo's idea. Are we talking about taking the Jedi Order that we've spent ages trying to bring back together, and then chopping it up? To follow your Hogwarts analogy, each "House" would have members of different personalities and philosophies... is that like the difference between a "Jedi Guardian", "Jedi Sentinel", "Jedi Consular", etc? Or were you thinking more of them being rival, self-contained political factions? Is this separate to any kind of leadership, or are you envisioning an umbrella Council or similar that consists of the "Headmaster" and "Teachers"?


I think there is still a lot to be explored with the Wheel, and if nothing else it allows us a certain amount of freedom in where we can go, what we can do and who can find us, since we are travelling with the Rebels (i.e. new members can come into the fold by acquiring ship co-ordinates, rather than having to explain how they knew about the super-duper secret base hidden from the Empire on some random planet :lol)

I just had a thought regarding that, actually. Has anyone seen Warehouse 13 (or Supernatural, for that matter)? The gist of the show is that freaky stuff happens, and then the characters turn up under the assumption that something paranormal is responsible for it. What if we had something similar - a couple of Rebel Intelligence officers who trawl through news feeds (both modern and immediately after the Purge), trying to spot weird stuff that might imply someone with Force powers? Tionne recently had a run in with an Iquisitor on Coruscant which might catch their eye; that sort of thing.

[Droo]

I have to admit, I haven't given the issues of leadership and infrastructure much thought. Instead, I'm simply musing over what I'd like to see in terms of story and character so feel free to point out any flaws in the idea, I'll do as much in just a moment.

Basically, if we imagine our characters are suddenly embroiled in this IC discussion entitled "Where Do We Go From Here?" then we'll immediately discover one thing: no-one agrees. It is a problem for our characters but a blessing for us. Conflict. Diversity. Uncertainty. We ought to take this feature of the Jedi and put it under the microscope, in the spotlight, dress it up in a neon catsuit and parade it around town.

So what I propose is a system which allows our characters to blossom as individuals while at the same time establishing a foundation of order. If our characters were presented with a pressing issue and were asked to debate it out, we discover the side of the fence on which they fall, the principles most dear to their hearts, and the kind of Jedi they wish to become. There won't be so much diversity of opinion that we can't round them up into neat groups of Jedi sub-divisions, amongst those with whom they identify, under a banner which accurately expresses who they are as Jedi. It sounds a bit lah-di-dah, but it's pretty straight forward really and in terms of how the divides work, well, terms such as Consular, Sentinel, and Guardian wouldn't be far off the mark.

And as for leadership, off the bat I would say each of these groups elects for themselves some form of leadership, whatever best suits them; one group might have one person, another two, while another group might elect an entire mini-council for representation, but whatever form of leadership each group decides upon, each would get only one vote in the grand scheme of things. Suddenly you have an ocean of clashing opinions whittled neatly down to two, three, or four.

Now, the immediate flaw in this scheme is that perhaps we don't have that many roleplayers around to have each of these "Houses" effectively represented, and consequently, the sense of cultural diversity amongst the Jedi falls flat.

Disclaimer time: what I am not proposing is divides amongst the Jedi which are so vast they become counter-productive to the groups operation, think of it as more of a cultural divide than anything, for colour and fun. All Jedi still have the same basic principles in the end, to survive and to protect and to be good people.

And stretching the Hogwarts analogy a little further here, just because a Jedi belongs to a certain group doesn't mean they would be segregated from the other groups, not at all. They would all still train and socialise together, just like Harry Potter and Draco Malfoy go to the same potions lessons and share the same Great Hall, but at the same time there's that sense of rivalry(although in fairness, in their case they pretty much hate each other).

In my case, there's Loki, who's ideology as a Jedi is pretty much that of a samurai: discipline and pride, with an emphasis on physical combat. There will be Jedi who are much more passive and those who are more laid back, there will be those who emphasise the use of Force powers in combat sooner than the use of a lightsaber, and so on... In this way, we may also begin to see how a system of training can unfold for padawans, those from the group with which Loki is associated may oversee lightsaber combat training while masters in another group might be responsible for training telekinesis and the like. While the setup is, in essence, quite simple, it can be used as a foundation to build upon without homogenising our Jedi.

[Captain Untouchable]

I'm gonna jump on the intregued bandwagon with this.

If I'm understanding you correctly (I'm gonna go with KOTOR class terms for want of a better alternative), Jedi would sorta gravitate towards the "class" that suits them best. People with samurai beliefs would head towards the "Guardians"; people with a more philosophical, Bhuddist perspective would go for the "Consulars"; and then the 'we should be protectors of law and order' people would go for the "Sentinels", or whatever. Then they'd all teach the rest of the Jedi the stuff they're good at: Guardians might run Lightsaber classes; Consulars teach you how to levitate rocks while standing on your head; Sentinels teach you mind tricks and tracking, etc.

Am I getting the gist of it right?

If so, I really like this idea, and am behind it 100%. It settles issues like the differing opinions of Jenny's three characters nicely, and is a pretty easy structure to work with.

The only question would be of at-the-top leadership. Would we have a triumveritae (love that term) with a representative from each 'class'? Or would we have that, plus a "Grandmaster" at the top of the pile for convenience? It might make sense to have Navaria as a Grandmaster, and then (picking the first member of each class that comes to mind) Drin, Tionne and Daria as the Guardian/Sentinel/Consular triumveritae, or something.

Triumveritae. It deserves saying more times. And possibly a little dancing. :dance

[Tionne Thanewulf]

Tionne wishes to sit in her respective throne, smoke her pipe and be snide in the face of danger.

Also, the latter is what she will teach her students. :lol

But yah, I like the idea. :)

[Dasquian Belargic]

I like all of what Droo has suggested.

I have always envisaged Daria taking a position of leadership, to be honest - see 'Years From Now...' - but I wouldn't force it on her without support from the rest of you guys.

Fortunately, I would be able to have a character in each 'group' - Corell is undoubtedly a Guardian, and Barton's sense of morality makes him a clear-cut Sentinel in my mind ;)

[Droo]

You pretty much nailed what I was getting at, Cap'n. They will be divided in philosophy but in practice they will be united. And for the record, I'm happy for anyone to be elected a leader of this or that as long as they're happy with it.

[Amos Iakona]

Is it bad that I chuckled a little at having "nailed" something? ^_^;

[Barton Henning]

http://www.sw-fans.net/forum/showthread.php?t=12628
^ handily, many Jedi already put down their 'class' in that thread ;)

[Droo]

I guess the question is: what would be the catalyst which causes this amongst the Jedi?

[Drin Kizael]

I had it in my head that we had a plethora of unnamed NPCs kicking around with us; is that not the case?

I've been operating on the assumption that although the crew of the Wheel might be fairly large, the number of actual Jedi was limited to just the PC's. Even in the books there was only like a dozen or so for the longest time.

And I, too, would like to see the classes on the same list as ranks for easier reference. I think you described them earlier pretty accurately. The Wizards RPG defines them by power focus, but that's too limiting for a forum like this. I like looking at them by philosophy, too.

Drin Kizael - Guardian - Knight

[Barton Henning]

I've been operating on the assumption that although the crew of the Wheel might be fairly large, the number of actual Jedi was limited to just the PC's. Even in the books there was only like a dozen or so for the longest time.

This is pretty similar to my understanding, though with the addition of maybe a few other NPC apprentices perhaps. We have a lot of Rebels crewing the various ships, since many of them are on loan from the Alliance anyway. At this point in time at least, I think they would be greatly outnumbering the Jedi.

[Captain Untouchable]

I guess the question is: what would be the catalyst which causes this amongst the Jedi?

I guess we just need to transpose the philosophies of each group into an answer to the question "Where do we go from here?"

The answer for the Consular train of thought would likely advocate consolodating ourselves, exercising patience, growing in numbers so we can better service the will of the Force, and all that jazz.

Guardians on the other hand might advocate a more proactive approach. The Jedi are being hunted by the Inquisitors; they might advocate establishing ourselves so that we can mount a better defense should the Inquisitors find us. Alternatively, some might advocate the Luke Skywalker approach, suggesting that we should be fighting alongside the Rebellion, helping to save lives and what not.

Meanwhile, the Sentinels might want the Jedi to become the adjudicators that they once were: settling disputes as negotiators, or advising and leading the Alliance as Generals, like they did for the Republic.

And then we need someone objective - Navaria, maybe? - to see that we're clearly dividing into those trains of thought, etc. We can be sent off to discuss what we're doing amongst ourselves... or she can pick the three individuals that seem to be emerging as spokesperson for each group, and can ask them to guide the discussion for each group, or whatever.

Something like that, anyway. If we're having some sort of congregation, then we need to make sure the questions asked are the issues that each group's opinions will clearly be divided on. So... how we interact with the Rebellion, how we respond to the Galactic Empire and the Inquisitors, what we do about attempting to find more lost Jedi, what we do about recruiting new people (children, etc)... that kinda stuff.




I've been operating on the assumption that although the crew of the Wheel might be fairly large, the number of actual Jedi was limited to just the PC's. Even in the books there was only like a dozen or so for the longest time.

This is pretty similar to my understanding, though with the addition of maybe a few other NPC apprentices perhaps. We have a lot of Rebels crewing the various ships, since many of them are on loan from the Alliance anyway. At this point in time at least, I think they would be greatly outnumbering the Jedi.

Hmm, okay. I was thinking we has a sizeable convoy already, but from the sound of it there's only the Valiant, Whaledon, and half a dozen smaller ships like Corell's and stuff. Not as grand a convoy as I was imagining from the posts I've read and written. Oh well! :p

[Corell Capstan]

We could have the Wheel hit by an Imperial starfighter squadron? A little crude maybe, but it would force us to come together and be all, okay maybe we need to pick up the pace <_<

[Captain Untouchable]

Do we even need a kick in the pants like that? If we have some sort of attack, then we throw in the variable of Rogue Squadron, and to be blunt we haven't been all that good at getting stuff done of late. ;)

Could we not... you know. Just arbetrarily decide that we need to discuss stuff? :huh

[Daria Nytherciria]

Well, I was meaning that the attack would be kind of like.. prologue, so the thread would start with us in media res reeling and/or fleeing, possibly bursting out of hyperspace with a collective "WTF how did they find us?!"

[Droo]

I like that idea but there's one big problem, if we did that and a TIE squadron found us, wouldn't it mean the Empire would thereafter know about the Wheel, not neccessarily the fact that it has anything to do with Jedi though, just the fact that there is a convoy out there with Rebel protection? Or would the TIE fighters be destroyed before the hyperspace jump?

[Ilias Nytrau]

Pow-pow. Lemme at 'em.

[/Kelly]

Well, even with a TIE squadron being destroyed, there would still be the fact that it was destroyed, that something destroyed it and given how long it might take to eradicate a squadron there would have been enough time to collect and transmit information about the Convoy. No matter what happens to the TIEs, we're likely to be found out in terms of their being the existence of said convoy. Not necessarily the Jedi within it.

[Captain Untouchable]

What Kaman said: just because they saw a bunch of ships doesn't mean they know what was in them.

Also, the Imperials might just be dumb. As an example, in the northeast of this map (http://img396.imageshack.us/img396/1456/gmapnewujca8.jpg) there are already a couple of Rebel formations pestering Imperial supply routes along the Hydian Way. If they drop in and spot the Valiant, they may just assume that it's part of the same network. Now granted, the Corporate Sector is about to start a massive operation to make that part of space a lot more unfriendly... but at the moment we have the convenient loophole of them not necessarily paying us any special attention.

If we want some sort of attack, I'm sure Kaman and I can manage to come up with a couple of prologue posts to set things up. :)

[Navaria Tarkin]

Ok wow... lots of thoughts yay! :)

I have hinted in some of my posts that the convoy could be found and it is a legitimate concern. I do imagine that the convoy is hiding in hyperspace/moving around as much as it possible depending on resources.

For a squadron of TIE's, it might work but once word reaches their base/ship, they would send a crew to investigate, meaning the convoy would need to be gone fast ... and it could still trigger the events of a meeting.

I always liked the Consular, Guardian, Sentinel idea and meshes so perfectly with Droo's idea. It allows anyone to really do what they will with their Jedi, and still serve the Force, even if ideals aren't agreed upon, there is still a common thread that all schools of thought do - preserving the Jedi way of life. Each thought serves that purpose. :thumbup

Now, I know I've not placed myself as someone as the de facto leader, but I suppose I have been playing it that way due to the circumstances of the Jedi and how her storyline progressed.

It would be odd having the Tarkins in charge of the Empire and the Jedi >_> crazy. Not in a bad way, it oddly fits the story o_O But I leave that to you, it's an IC position after all :) Navaria is a good blend of old and new ways of thought to the Jedi, being trained since birth by Drin and then realizing what does work in the current times does bring some clarity to the situation. Though, she values all opinions.

I also like a chosen leader for the three 'factions'. It works well and everyone would have a say.

[Captain Untouchable]

To sorta drag things back to the initial subject line of the thread, then...

What does the rank of Master represent? Are we going to make the chosen leader of each faction a Master, and then draw a line under it? Or are we going to go with how it apparently works in the EU, with people earning Master status as soon as their Padawan is declared a Knight?

Also, there's the issue of characters like Barton, who at least have some formal training and then twenty years of life experience. Do people like that get a free pass to Knight just to help bolster our numbers a bit?

Or, in the interests of the whole separate groups doing things their own way, is it going to be down to the disgression of the "Class Master" who gets promoted... make it a subjective, IC thing?

[Dasquian Belargic]

I don't see a need to change how the Master rank has been handled previously at Fans... in that someone becomes a Master after a significant amount of time / character development as a Jedi Knight. Right now, the majority of characters have spent the last however many years doing a lot of running, hiding and generally not training. I would imagine it would be a little while, at least, before any of the present Knights show the necessary development (...with the exception of Serena, perhaps?)

I wouldn't want any of my characters to be promoted because of something like this - Barton will become a Knight if/when he comes to accept his life as a Jedi once again and resumes his training; Daria will become a Master if/when she overcomes her inner darkness etc etc. Their promotions will come as logical parts in their stories .

[Captain Untouchable]

*shrug* I thought half of the concept of the Jedi was the whole pseudo-religious symbolism thing. Seems a bit squiffy to be trying to establish some sort of hierarchy when everyone is equal.

So...we're pretty much not using Master for the forseeable future, then. Fair enough. :)

[Droo]

Everyone is equal. It's just that some are more equal than others! :cool:

Edit: As for ranks, I'm not sure, I think it's because it doesn't really bother me one way or another although I do have one idea. I think it would be quite cool if each faction or whatever it is we're going to call them, had its own ranks and ranking system. Just for the sake of variety, I guess, to give each sub-group more character.

[Captain Untouchable]

Would that not make it difficult for the whole "sharing classes" part of the Hogwarts metaphor, though? Or do you just mean that each group would have a different name for each level?

There were prestige classes in KOTOR2 ... Weapon Master, Sage Master and Watchman I think, for Guardian, Consular and Sentinel respectively. You thinking that a Padawan could graduate to Jedi Sentinel (instead of Knight), and then instead of being made a generic Jedi Master they're appointed as a Jedi Watchman for a particular sector?

Or am I totally wide of the mark?

[Navaria Tarkin]

I dunno, those titles don't sing right with me only because it seems rather early to have such titles. They don't seem to make much sense, especially Watchmen because it's difficult to protect a sector of space that is controlled by the Empire

:p

You seem so enamored by that title XD

Of course, when things are more established ... I could see specific titles.

[Captain Untouchable]

Of course I'm enamoured: its the only denomination of Jedi that features Jeffrey Dean Morgan. ;)

I just find the notion of a Watchman particularly intreguing, especially in this kind of climate. To me, it seems like the purest and most noble representation of what a Jedi is meant to be; at least from an Old Republic perspective. If there's any way to echo what has gone before, this would be it. It isn't as much about "protecting" the sectors as providing oversight and guidane over them as well. And like I mentioned in passing earlier: we have seven sectors represented on the Alliance council, at least three of which (Mon Cal, Sullust and Bothawui) aren't in Imperial space anymore. From the sound of it it'd be a good while before we had anyone at Master level; beyond that, if the Alliance government can manage to have representatives for those sectors, then I'm sure the Jedi can manage. *shrug*

That said though... I just lifted those three class names directly from the game mechanics of KOTOR 2, so blame the BioWare rather than me. :mneh

[Drin Kizael]

Those 3 classes are used in every Star Wars RPG, online and dice alike. I don't know who came up with them first, but it doesn't matter. I'd rather we not get so hung up on titles. That's getting WAY ahead of ourselves. Those 3 classes are enough. There aren't enough Jedi in the galaxy to get so formal.

I just I'm around for this attack thing if it happens.

[Dasquian Belargic]

I think it would be better to assume that everyone who wants to be around and take part in the discussion, is around - and therefore set the attack after everything is going on at the moment, i.e. Drin will be rescued.

[Droo]

The titles thing has nothing to do with formality, it's simply a question of doing things differently, and yes Cap'n, that's what I meant - keep the same number of ranks but perhaps just change the titles depending on the group. It would be mainly a cosmetic change because I'm not personally so hung up on the actual titles of Guardian, Consular, and Sentinel, I like the definitions of them, just not the titles because once again, they're so traditional. If everyone else is cool with them, it's fine of course, I was just suggesting something different. Secondly, I'd imagine the qualities and requirements each group would expect of any potential promotees would differ from each other depending on their values.

And yes, I'm with Jenny in that there's no harm in just jumping forward in the timeline a touch in order to get everyone who wants to be in the Wheel in time for this thread and the subsequent discussion onboard with the rest of us. The sooner we press on the better, I'm itching to do something.

[Dasquian Belargic]

If we can agree on the basics that we want to achieve, we can get this going. ASAP. The main thing I want to see is everyone coming together to get a grasp on where we actually want to go, rather than just drifting and jumping through space. So.. setting goals I guess, which would include the possibility of opening ourselves up to investigating Force-related stuff throughout the galaxy, and potentially assigning groups of Jedi to certain sectors or systems.

[Captain Untouchable]

Are we gonna try and do everything in one go, or do we wanna use this thread to establish the three "houses" and then deal with the "what are we going to do" aspect later on? It's potentially a pretty full and busy thread as-is, and those are always tough to keep going. Might be worth starting off aiming low; then we can either just carry on into more stuff, split into three threads for each class to discuss what they want to do, or say that certain chunks of discussion happened "off screen" in order to get past the talking and on to the actual doing?

[Droo]

Are we gonna try and do everything in one go, or do we wanna use this thread to establish the three "houses" and then deal with the "what are we going to do" aspect later on?

I would say that's the bit we leave in the hands of the roleplay itself. We've done plenty of planning and it seems we have a sense of direction now. I think we ought to just allow things to play out in this next thread and see where it takes us, and hopefully by the end of it, we'll have at least established that there are divides amongst the Jedi which need to be acknowledged.

Then as you said, there's nothing stopping us from jumping forward afterwards, assuming some behind-the-scenes work has been done so we find the three divisions in their infancy.

[Dasquian Belargic]

^ sounds good to me.

[Drin Kizael]

So there are about a dozen Masters and Knights. Is that enough to form up 3 houses/schools/factions/whatever? Comparing the newly updated Active List with the older list that shows classes, I'm not sure.

In the old days, we'd often send only 1 Jedi on any given mission, or 2 if one was a Padawan. In the post-Empire era with Inquisitors and the odd Sith running around out there, that's probably not smart. I'd expect any given mission to have 2 Knights minimum, and I'd expect only 1 from any given faction to round out the skillset needed for that mission. Ideally 1 Guardian and 1 ________ (plus any Padawans), but that's not likely to happen most of the time.

If we do have enough to form this hierarchy, I figure we'd then have a loose "Council" of 3, and not necessarily 3 Masters... which is fine considering the rag tag state in which the Jedi should rightfully be in this era.

[Captain Untouchable]

So... am I green-lit to throw something together for this whole attack on the convoy thing, or are we still deliberating?

[Droo]

You've got the :thumbup from me.

[Dasquian Belargic]

A short intro with the attack sounds good to me. Preferably which leaves the rest of us free to join the thread and begin debating post-haste! ^_^;

[Acacius Blade]

I'm all for an attack. I plan to have Acacius fight back in some way. They may be ships in space but he's got force skillz after all!

As for the 'factions', when was it decided to be just three? If we get ahead and there's three well-established 'squads' and a new influx arrives and don't want to fit into the existing onces, are we going to be so rigid as to not allow them to form their own grouping and further diversify the group as a whole? I envision situations where there's some sort of a hostile take-over of a city by Imperials. With civilians on the streets it might not be a good idea to hit them with the hammer in the form of guardians/combat-heavy Jedi, but at the same time a diplomatic approach with someone who wants to eradicate you is going nowhere fast.

What we could have is a situation where there's a meeting of the faction heads who discuss a situation like 'OMG Imperials have attacked mon Calamari' and it is decided 'Right, lets send in the heavy-hitters and drive them out. So-and-so, your squad's the best for this sort of thing, make it happen!'

So as not to exclude others who wants to get involved but aren't in said squad, I'm sure each faction would benefit from support from the others in some way. It's fine and appropriate to send in a squad of lightsaber specialists for the above situation but they may run into a complication such as a barricade that's just too well defended. A telekinesis specialist would come in handy to simply throw the Imps and barriers about a bit, allowing the swordsmen to proceed.

You could think of it like the Space Marines from Warhammer 40,000 - each favours a particular style and approach to situations, but they can still work together and strive for the same supreme goals. And they all have their own separate agendas and personalities.

[Drin Kizael]

As for the 'factions', when was it decided to be just three? ... are we going to be so rigid as to not allow them to form their own grouping and further diversify the group as a whole?
No. No one said that. We're not the military. It's just three schools of thought to help (loosely) define our roles. It's not like we can't interact or send whoever is available (or interested OOC) on any given mission.

Guardian does not even have to mean "heavy hitter". You can send a Guardian on an investigation or a diplomatic mission. Missions end up being fluid anyway. Qui-Gon Jinn was a Counselor, but a master swordsman (per the novel). What started as an attempt at diplomacy turned into a security assignment and then an invasion. A Jedi has to be prepared for anything. But they still have a starting point.

Forget power focus. It's more about philosophy. Even within the same "faction" (a poor choice of words really) there will be diversity. The more factions you add, the more complicated you make it. These 3 schools have a fairly broad range.


You could think of it like the Space Marines from Warhammer 40,000 - each favours a particular style and approach to situations, but they can still work together and strive for the same supreme goals. And they all have their own separate agendas and personalities.

If a military analogy works for you... then sure. That pretty much describes it.

[Leela Vorega]

Sorry it took so long! There's a thread up for the summit / meeting type thing: Getting Things in Order (http://www.sw-fans.net/forum/showthread.php?t=20087).

In the interests of getting to the actual discussion part as quickly as possible, we glossed over the attack relatively quickly, but I guess if enough people want to actually play out their parts in it we can throw up a separate thread for that so we don't hold up the meeting.

Apparently some other stuff needs to happen, so... over to you, Dani?

[Navaria Tarkin]

As for the schools of thought.... are we generally good with the three loosely based ideals? Or was there the schools of thought and one overseeing it O_o

I kinda got lost in the discussion of what we were going to end up doing :p

[Corell Capstan]

3 schools of thought to begin with I guess, just because we have a framework already in place to work around with the Guardian / Consular / Sentinel divide

[Droo]

Before I post to this thread, I have a quick question: which ship is most likely to be the one on which Loki will have taken up residency? I think the Jedi are on the Whaladon but I'm not sure.

[Dasquian Belargic]

That's the main Jedi ship, yes.

[Navaria Tarkin]

Do we know who the three are going to be that will lead the three?

And yes, I can call a meeting or sumtin o_O

We are presuming that Daria/Navaria/Drin are on board already right?

[Droo]

I think it's time to clarify for all exactly what the setup will be once these three sub-groups are establish in terms of leadership. Are we all in agreement of the following:

Three groups to begin with, each one representing the three acknowledged Jedi models of Guardian, Sentinel, and Consular.

Each group has a leader, who will speak on the behalf of the Jedi they represent in what is essentially a council of three.

A neutral mediator is selected to oversee the debates and decision-making conducted between the three group representatives, and when a decision is made, will act as the spokesperson and leading figure of the Jedi. This particular role would also include acting as the Jedi liaison with the leaders of the Rebel Alliance.

The leader of the Guardians is to be Drin Kizael. The leader of the Sentinels, Tionne Thanewulf, and Daria Nytherciria will represent the Consulars. Navaria Tarkin will act as the mediator, Rebellion liaison, and dare I say it, the Face of the Jedi.

I'm not suggesting anything new. Just after confirmation on exactly where we stand in order to press on.

[Barton Henning]

Haha, Eliza Dushku is the Face of Everything in this galaxy :lol It works though! Let's go with that.

[Navaria Tarkin]

^_^;

Just make sure a certain Miraluka doesn't try to sway the vote :p

Are Tio and Drin agreeable to the arrangement as well? Does everyone else support this since I do feel it breaks down the roles nicely and Navaria has no qualms about not being affiliated. Her unique training of old and new ways gives her a unique perspective

[Tionne Thanewulf]

I'm fine with it. Thanks. :)

[Drin Kizael]

A neutral mediator is selected to oversee the debates and decision-making conducted between the three group representatives, and when a decision is made, will act as the spokesperson and leading figure of the Jedi. This particular role would also include acting as the Jedi liaison with the leaders of the Rebel Alliance.

A neutral mediator for Jedi seems kind of redundant, not to mention that could create tie votes, not break them. A liaison, though, makes sense. And Navaria fits the role.


The leader of the Guardians is to be Drin Kizael.

Woah. I am? .. oO( heh welcome back, Lance )

Thank you for the vote of confidence. OOC... sure. Pre-reboot I played Drin as a teacher, so I can do it. IC you are really gonna have to talk him into it. It's gonna be a hard sell, but it makes sense since he's 1 of the 2 most experienced active Jedi.

Now I definitely need to see the list of who's who.

I was hoping to have had my escape thread done before all this, but I don't want to hold you up. We'll be there soon.

[Navaria Tarkin]

Think of it like the Minbari who had a Council of Nine as well as a Leader above them.

from wiki http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Grey_Council

From time to time, the council had an additional member, a leader who served as a guide for the council. It is not known if this person had a vote or not; nor is the scope of their authority known.

that is how I would see Navaria's role besides liaison.

[Dasquian Belargic]

If Drin isn't interested in the role, it could be given to Loki? He's a Guardian too, right?

[Drin Kizael]

I wasn't saying no. Just surprised.

And what Navaria said is what I was thinking.

[Barton Henning]

Okedoke, just offering an alternative in the event that you thought IC Drin would find the position unappealing.

[Drin Kizael]

Nope, all good. This is an interesting character turn. Not what I was expecting, but it makes sense. He's been hiding all this time and thinks he's a three time failure... and is thrust into a situation where he needs to soldier up and get over himself.

IC he will find it uncomfortable at first. But that's just material for good drama. I'm thinking it'd involve RP posts with Navaria and probably Tionne. I can't help but turn everything into a story. More fun that way. :)

[Tionne Thanewulf]

Drama? Oh, I'm in. Bring it on. :eee

[Drin Kizael]

So we still doing this?

[Droo]

I hope so. I plan on posting as Loki within the next couple of days, since I have them off work, and I was also planning on pushing things forward a little with my post in order to get things moving again. That is, of course, as long as no-one has any objections.

[Anj]

OBJECTION!!!

You should have more time off.

[Droo]

Just post! Gonna be okay. Da da doo doo-mmm!
Just post! Use that keyboard, babe! Da da doo doo-mmm!
Just post! Gonna be okay. P-p-p post!
Post! Post! Just j-j-just post!

:dance

[Daria Nytherciria]

I figure we are mostly waiting on Tionne and Navaria now.

Tionne seems to have gone MIA :(

[Navaria Tarkin]

What am I doing o_o

[Droo]

The same as everyone else: getting stuck into the discussion and saying "No, your ideas suck! Listen to meee!" :)

[Drin Kizael]

Hopefully I've done my part to nudge us along. I'm sorry for holding anyone up.

[Serena Laran]

This thread is long and seems to have wandered far from the initial "what about Master ranks then?" question...

But I liked the way it was done before - the existing Master ranked characters (people who'd earned it through roleplay, time, and character's knowledge of the Force) decided who among the Knights were ready (ooc discussion), and they let one of them set up a Master test roleplay to make sure they were right. And then that was it. New Jedi Master.

I'm a little confused at the confusion about the rank, I guess. :p I hope it was all cleared up!

Of course anyone who's teaching a padawan is always referred to as "Master" even if they're only Knights in rank. That was confusing to me for a while.

And I would like Serena to be considered (ooc) for a Master rank, whenever she gets her ass back here (ic). Perhaps we can use that (if you guys think its cool of course) to create a precedent and standard for what we'll do in the future with rank promotions.

Oh, and I always thought that letting a teacher determine when their student was ready for Knighthood and arranging their 'trial' thread was a good idea.

[Captain Untouchable]

I posted in the thread, with something open-ended to try and shuffle things a long a little. I hope that's okay. :uhoh

[Dasquian Belargic]

Serena - to quote myself, earlier in this thread :D


I don't see a need to change how the Master rank has been handled previously at Fans... in that someone becomes a Master after a significant amount of time / character development as a Jedi Knight. Right now, the majority of characters have spent the last however many years doing a lot of running, hiding and generally not training. I would imagine it would be a little while, at least, before any of the present Knights show the necessary development (...with the exception of Serena, perhaps?)

Promotions are something I see as being a logical part of a characters progression, and not necessarily reliant on trials. If a master wanted to put their student through a trial, fair enough, but I would leave that down to the individual RPer to decide how they do it. I trust everyone enough here to know that they wouldn't go about creating Knights and Masters willy-nilly.

[Serena Laran]

Well, I said "trial" but I didn't really mean an IC trial, more like a specific thread designed to test a RPer's competence and prove that they're worthy. Like Navaria's 'test' with her mom and Vega, etc.

I don't think we should drop that part of the rite of passage. Like when LD became a master, pre-reset, I had to fight Soth. I felt very accomplished when that was over. ;)

[Daria Nytherciria]

Right. I imagine that there would be a logical point in the characters story when it makes sense for them to officially become a Jedi Master :)